Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Waitone on January 27, 2009, 10:04:47 PM
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Anytime I see an article about guns in Mexico my ears perk up. US officials have yet (to my satisfaction) to demonstrate the problem.
http://www.newsmax.com/us/cartel_guns/2009/01/27/175504.html
Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:00 AM
PHOENIX -- As police approached a drug cartel's safe house in northwestern Mexico last May, gunmen inside poured on fire with powerful assault rifles and grenades, killing seven officers whose weapons were no match.
Four more lawmen were wounded in the bloodbath and a cache of weapons was seized, including a single AK-47 assault rifle that authorities say was purchased 800 miles away at a Phoenix gun shop and smuggled into Mexico.
The rifle's presence in Mexico underscores two realities in the government's war against drug traffickers: Nearly all the guns the cartels use are smuggled into Mexico from the U.S., and officials say a small number of corrupt American weapons dealers are making the gun running possible.
"It's a war," said Bill Newell, special agent in charge of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Arizona and New Mexico. "It's a war between the drug cartels. And it's a war between the government and the drug cartels. And the weapons of war are the weapons that they are acquiring illegally here in the United States."
Authorities don't know how many firearms are sneaked across the border, but the ATF says more than 7,700 guns sold in America were traced to Mexico last year, up from 3,300 the year before and about 2,100 in 2006. The increase is attributed both to a higher volume going south and a growing interest among Mexican authorities in running recovered weapons through a U.S. gun-tracing database.
Mexican and U.S. officials estimate the cartels get 95 percent of their guns from the United States; others are stolen when cartels overrun Mexican authorities. Cartels recruit "straw buyers" in the United States who make purchases on their behalf. Then people are paid to bring the weapons across the border.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection, whose inspectors scrutinize border-crossers at ports of entry, declined to characterize the frequency of its searches of vehicles driving into Mexico, but conceded that not all traffic leaving America is searched.
Inspections of vehicles coming into the United States are considered a bigger priority, because they are aimed at stopping weapons, terrorists and other dangerous elements from coming into the country. Periodic searches of outgoing traffic are done as spot checks and in response to tips of upcoming attempts to smuggle guns or cash.
"We just don't have the manpower to do 100 percent inspections of outgoing traffic," said agency spokesman Jason Ciliberti.
Federal agents say the small number of dealers who knowingly sell guns to smuggling rings have the potential to inflict a lot of damage. As evidence, they cite the Arizona gun dealer accused of selling the AK-47 recovered at the May 27 shootout in Culiacan involving the powerful Sinaloa cartel.
George Iknadosian, owner of X-Caliber Guns in Phoenix, is accused of selling guns to two groups of straw buyers when he knew the weapons were going to be smuggled into Mexico. He also was targeted in stings in which he allegedly sold guns to undercover officers posing as straw buyers.
Iknadosian is set for trial Feb. 3 on fraud and other charges. His lawyer, Thomas M. Baker of Phoenix, didn't return calls seeking comment.
Investigators believe 600 guns sold by Iknadosian ended up in Mexico, most headed to the violent Pacific Coast state of Sinaloa.
Authorities say several have surfaced. They include:
_ An AK-47 and .38-caliber Super pistol with diamond-encrusted grips found after the Nov. 2 killing of the police chief of the northern state of Sonora as he walked into a hotel about two miles south of the Arizona border.
_ A .38-caliber Super pistol seized a year ago when Mexican special forces captured a top Sinaloa cartel lieutenant, Alfredo Beltran Leyva, and three members of his security team in Culiacan.
_ Three assault rifles recovered after patrolling federal police officers were fired upon and responded by killing four gunmen from the Beltran Leyva drug gang on July 2 at a house in Culiacan.
The overwhelming majority of guns recovered in Mexico come from America's four southern border states, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico, according to the ATF. Many of the rest come from other Western states (Washington, Nevada, Colorado and Oklahoma), the South (Georgia, Florida and Louisiana) and the Midwest (Illinois, Ohio and Indiana).
Gun smuggling corridors are usually dictated by proximity to the nearest and easiest sources of weapons.
Drug smugglers seek out guns in America because gun laws in Mexico are more restrictive than in the United States. Mexicans must get approval for a gun purchase from the Mexican defense department and are limited to guns with a caliber no higher than the standard .38-caliber. Larger calibers are considered military weapons and are off-limits to civilians.
Gun traffickers break caches into small loads to lower the risk of losing them all in a bust. Some guns are walked into Mexico, but most are driven through ports of entry, stuffed inside spare ties, fastened to undercarriages with zip ties, kept in hidden compartments, or bubble-wrapped and tucked in vehicle panels.
Investigators say smugglers sometimes wait until inspectors on both sides are busy with peak border traffic to drive across.
Prosecutors allege Iknadosian offered smuggling advice to a confidential informant during a police sting at his shop in Phoenix, telling the informant to break up purchases. "If you got pulled over two is no biggie," Iknadosian is quoted as saying in a search-warrant affidavit. "Four is a question. Fifteen is what are you doing. So if you got two, hey me and a buddy are going to go out shooting."
Arturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the United States, says his country wants the U.S. government to fully enforce gun exportation laws, crack down on more straw buys at guns shows and gather more information on which firearms dealers are selling to rings.
For its part, Mexico must put more money and people into searching incoming border traffic, Sarukhan said.
"If Mexico and the United States are going to be successful, we are going to have to tango together," Sarukhan said.
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With a porous border and two-way migration and millions of "willing friends," it's hard to see how this problem does not get worse.
The answer: legalize the stuff and take the money out of it.
Oh wait, our banks would collapse...
But haven't they already, anyway?
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With a porous border and two-way migration and millions of "willing friends," it's hard to see how this problem does not get worse.
The answer: legalize the stuff and take the money out of it.
Oh wait, our banks would collapse...
But haven't they already, anyway?
I can always tell who has never seen a meth tweaker's rampaging in person.
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The answer: legalize the stuff and take the money out of it.
Much like the war on drugs, we may see a war on guns. Seems hypocritical to fight fire with fire, but there you have it. *expletive deleted*it, I just caught your drift. I thought you were saying that Mexico should legalize guns. Nevermind. Maybe I should ban myself because I am getting more and more pessimistic, post by post.
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I can always tell who has never seen a meth tweaker's rampaging in person.
<thread drift>I have. But as an old paramedic, I saw far more violence over drug turf and money than by actual consumption of the drugs. Legalization is no panacea, but I think it would probably be noticeably better than what we've got now.</thread drift>
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At any rate, it's too bad our military is all overseas. A decent argument can be made for Mexico as a threat to America. If there is anywhere in the world ready for the spreading of democracy at gunpoint, it's Mexico.
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You mean the "bugs under my skin" and stuff? All I know about meth is that, if a meth head can reinvent the wheel, they damn sure are gonna try. I also know that if I were a dentist, I'd want to go rural and help them out.
Seriously, the day will come when Beagle's complaint is verified and then the army will be stationed there, but by then our gun rights will be abolished. Our only hope is that, just as in the case of alcohol, the amendment will be repealed.
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Let me see if I've got this straight.
1. Mexican criminals are shooting the place up.
2. Some of their guns come from Los Estatos Unidos.
3. Therefore, we need to disarm America's commoners.
Stalin would understand, I'm sure.
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You mean the "bugs under my skin" and stuff? All I know about meth is that, if a meth head can reinvent the wheel, they damn sure are gonna try.
One of the most violent episodes I have ever witnessed was at the hands of a doper. The depths of uncontrolled rage that some drugs can release are simply astonishing.
So I understand the anti-drug argument from that POV. I just think it's an instance of emotion getting in the way of cold logic. The damage caused by dopers is a fraction of the damage caused by artificially inflated drug prices.
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Therefore, we need to disarm America's commoners
other than you who said this?
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Pete Shields.
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I can always tell who has never seen a meth tweaker's rampaging in person.
Ever seen a guy with an AK47 rampaging?
Your arugment is invalid and exactly the same that the antis use in their plan to disarm us.
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tweakers rage when they run out. make it legal and cheap they can do meth till they die or want help.its a self curing problem.meths a funny thing i know old drunks old junkies and occaisional old coke freak that got old and of course lots and lots of old pot heads. but meth doesn't lend itself to old age. i think what convinced me was having some that was wrapped up in that thick restaraunt grade aliminum foil i left it on my dresser i came home from school and it had disolved the foil and stripped the finish off a circle a couple inches round on the dresser. that image managed to cut through the fog and had an impact.
so my solution to raging tweakers? an all you can eat buffet
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Dear Mexico:
If illegal cross-border traffic is a problem for Mexico, then you'll no doubt be eager to join with the USA in building, maintaining, and guarding a fence to stop ALL illicit cross-border movement of ANY type.
We invite you to work with us.
Very Truly Yours -
The USA.
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Read between the lines.
PHOENIX -- As police approached a drug cartel's safe house in northwestern Mexico last May, gunmen inside poured on fire with powerful assault rifles and grenades, killing seven officers whose weapons were no match.
Four more lawmen were wounded in the bloodbath and a cache of weapons was seized, including a single AK-47 assault rifle that authorities say was purchased 800 miles away at a Phoenix gun shop and smuggled into Mexico.
ONE rifle came from the US. The rest of the rifles, and definitely the grenades would have come from the Mexican military.
Ever seen a guy with an AK47 rampaging?
Your arugment is invalid and exactly the same that the antis use in their plan to disarm us.
Oh, come on. That's apples and oranges, and completely invalid. You KNOW better than that.
An AK-47 does not make someone rage. It's an object. Meth, on the other hand, causes people to become intensely paranoid, see shadow people, and become violent.
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Read between the lines.
It seems like since maybe last summer (mid election), that these types of stories have increased, too. I get that fear sells, but they way the media sells it makes me quite suspicious.
Oh, come on. That's apples and oranges, and completely invalid. You KNOW better than that.
An AK-47 does not make someone rage. It's an object. Meth, on the other hand, causes people to become intensely paranoid, see shadow people, and become violent.
And if they become violent, its well within my rights to protect myself from them. That is the root issue in our country, that people are stripped away of their rights and expected to be sheep. Get violent on Meth? Expect to pay the consequences with your life.
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I can always tell who has never seen a meth tweaker's rampaging in person.
Like These guys (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php)?
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_ An AK-47 and .38-caliber Super pistol with diamond-encrusted grips found after the Nov. 2 killing of the police chief of the northern state of Sonora as he walked into a hotel about two miles south of the Arizona border.
_ A .38-caliber Super pistol seized a year ago when Mexican special forces captured a top Sinaloa cartel lieutenant, Alfredo Beltran Leyva, and three members of his security team in Culiacan.
Who the heck buys a .38 super with the express intent for using it in a crime? Seriously?
You can't exactly go down to the nearest sporting goods store to get ammo.
Obviously a stolen gun, or one bought in a private party transfer just to get "a gun, any gun" rather than through a straw purchase.
I like how "Super" these guns are in the story though, and how the diamond-encrusted grips (yeah right.... probably zircs) made one extra-specially dangerous.
Those are the first two .38 Supers I've heard of being used in crimes. It's gotta be about as rare as a Deagle in .440 Corbon turning up for the same reason...
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I would imagine Mexicans would buy .38 Supers.
.38 Super is extremely popular in Mexico.
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ONE rifle came from the US. The rest of the rifles, and definitely the grenades would have come from the Mexican military.
very strong assertion, unsubstantiated but strong
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Who the heck buys a .38 super with the express intent for using it in a crime? Seriously?
You can't exactly go down to the nearest sporting goods store to get ammo.
Obviously a stolen gun, or one bought in a private party transfer just to get "a gun, any gun" rather than through a straw purchase.
I like how "Super" these guns are in the story though, and how the diamond-encrusted grips (yeah right.... probably zircs) made one extra-specially dangerous.
Those are the first two .38 Supers I've heard of being used in crimes. It's gotta be about as rare as a Deagle in .440 Corbon turning up for the same reason...
In Mexico, you can't have handguns (dunno about rifles) chambered in military calibers. Hence, .38 Super is popular down there, but not so much here.
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In Mexico, you can't have handguns (dunno about rifles) chambered in military calibers. Hence, .38 Super is popular down there, but not so much here.
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Which is why there are no AK's, AR's or 9mm handguns at all in mexico?
Who even makes a .38 super besides Colt? It's a boutique weapon as far as I can tell.
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Who even makes a .38 super besides Colt? It's a boutique weapon as far as I can tell.
Kimber, Springfield Armory, Tanfoglio, Astra, Llama, Star, Taurus, Les Baer and others I am forgetting.
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I would imagine Mexicans would buy .38 Supers.
.38 Super is extremely popular in Mexico.
Yep, IIRC, "military" caliber like 9mm, .45, .223, .308 and such are banned/heavily restricted for the hoi polloi of Mexico.
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ONE rifle came from the US. The rest of the rifles, and definitely the grenades would have come from the Mexican military.
very strong assertion, unsubstantiated but strong
Right, I'm sure they bought their grenades in the US where they're far easier to get. :rolleyes:
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Manedwolf,
Usually we agree, so I am a bit surprised to see you supporting the "war on drugs." For the record I do not support the abuse of anything, including intoxicants, but I believe the answer to that and just about all problems lies in self-control, responsibility, education, and a focus on the kind of tough-minded honoring of individual liberty that has been synonymous with this nation's deepest beliefs. We must not be afraid of who we are. You're right, the hard stuff can make you do ugly and crazy things, but better the isolated rampaging doper than a marauding pack of ruthless and venal killers; better the occasional berserker than a predatory state. This is always the argument, isn't it? That one "wild" person disqualifies everyone else, no matter how self-controlled, from exercising their rights? And, let me add, you will never succeed in banning "altered states," because they are an intimately entwined with not only human deliquency but higher human aspirations. A wise society will use wisely; a corrupted polity will use badly.
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Their argument is that we are corrupting Mexico, is it not?
Our freedom to own firearms is corrupting what would otherwise be a peaceful, lawful state?
If that isn't the worst sort of cultural blindness, hypocrisy, and self-rationalization I don't know what is.
We will never get drug abuse under control when it becomes an integral part of ours and others' economies on such a vast scale as it is today.
Take the money out of it--that's a start.
Then we can begin to take the money out of our own national indebtedness...
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Which is why there are no AK's, AR's or 9mm handguns at all in mexico?
Who even makes a .38 super besides Colt? It's a boutique weapon as far as I can tell.
You know that I mean legal for law abiding citizens to own.
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Unless our government is giving the cartels the guns, I don't see how this is even remotely politics.
Moving to Round Table.
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Right, I'm sure they bought their grenades in the US where they're far easier to get. :rolleyes:
Got any links? I need to stock up on grenades, assault rifles, flamethrowers and napalm. It's obvious that they would just dump it into a crate and send it right to my door too, right? After all, everyone knows there aren't any gun laws in the US :rolleyes:.
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Got any links? I need to stock up on grenades, assault rifles, flamethrowers and napalm. It's obvious that they would just dump it into a crate and send it right to my door too, right? After all, everyone knows there aren't any gun laws in the US :rolleyes:.
Dude, you can order it off the internetz, didn't you know that? :O
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After all, everyone knows there aren't any gun laws in the US
Exactly, like these 2 guys that were talking on my job. They were saying how anyone can just go to a gun show and get rpgs, grenades, and such. I aked them the last gun show they went to... answer.. "uhh never"... so I state that in the many gun shows I've been to I've never seen anything close to what they were talking about... they said I "didn't know the right people".. uh huh.
Got any links? I need to stock up on grenades, assault rifles, flamethrowers and napalm.
Actually, I think flamethrowers are legal on the federal level, if you can find or build one.
Back to OP, I'm guessing it is much easier to get weapons from the corrupt mexican military than to buy them and sneak them across the border. BS reporting as usual.
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Dude, you can order it off the internetz, didn't you know that? :O
I have yet to find any shops willing to ship overseas in an unmarked crate. Obviously they haven't heard about you guys not having any gun laws.
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Actually, I think flamethrowers are legal on the federal level, if you can find or build one.
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Indeed that is correct - flamethrowers are not legally a firearm, so they're not regulated even on the same level as a pistol would be.
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Indeed that is correct - flamethrowers are not legally a firearm, so they're not regulated even on the same level as a pistol would be.
I think I would have a letter from the BATFE in hand before owning a flamethrower.
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I think I would have a letter from the BATFE in hand before owning a flamethrower.
Can't give you that.
This might turn out to be informative, though. (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt)
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Kimber, Springfield Armory, Tanfoglio, Astra, Llama, Star, Taurus, Les Baer and others I am forgetting.
Sig does as well. =D
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Can't give you that.
This might turn out to be informative, though. (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt)
When Deputy Cleetus arrests me for playing with my flamethrower at the local shooting hole, I'd rather have a signed letter from the BATFE on official stationary than an NFA FAQ printed from a college website.
These days its arrest first, hide the evidence of your being innocent later.
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When Deputy Cleetus arrests me for playing with my flamethrower at the local shooting hole, I'd rather have a signed letter from the BATFE on official stationary than an NFA FAQ printed from a college website.
These days its arrest first, hide the evidence of your being innocent later.
+1 on that.
A friend of mine built a "paintball flamethrower" for a paintball game... it flung paint about 50 feet and worked of the same principle as a normal flamethrower. We considered putting a pilot light and "napalm" in it just for fun, but it wasn't worth the potential legal and safety hazards.
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A lot of totally unlicensed flamethrowers at Knob Creek each year. Not to mention the kid from Something Awful forums who built his own.
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A lot of totally unlicensed flamethrowers at Knob Creek each year. Not to mention the kid from Something Awful forums who built his own.
I remember that one. Most awesome ever. Now I want to build one =D.
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Back to OP, I'm guessing it is much easier to get weapons from the corrupt mexican military than to buy them and sneak them across the border. BS reporting as usual.
Well, they have drugs, we have what is probably the world's largest supply of guns. Maybe they don't want to contribute to our trade deficit. :laugh:
I figure Mexico is lying through its teeth regarding the percentage of weapons stolen (or 'lost) from their .gov armories versus the ones they get from El Norte. They seem to be doing everything they can to foist the blame off on the gringos, as opposed to their own deep and abiding failings. America is their Fistful.
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I call BS to the article. Why in the hell would the cartels come to the US to get overpriced semi-auto guns when every banana republic south of the border is willing to sell them what ever they want in full military dress just so they can destabilize the US? They sure as $^!t didn't get the grenades here. I seriously doubt the guns are from here either.
The reporter wrote an article with false facts in it to gin up anti-gun sentiment.
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I call BS to the article. Why in the hell would the cartels come to the US to get overpriced semi-auto guns when every banana republic south of the border is willing to sell them what ever they want in full military dress just so they can destabilize the US? They sure as $^!t didn't get the grenades here. I seriously doubt the guns are from here either.
The reporter wrote an article with false facts in it to gin up anti-gun sentiment.
Over on one of the Yahoo gun boards, there's a guy (insert your own, less-complimentary phrase as a substitute for "guy") who INSISTS that the cartels' use of FN select-fire P-90s and semi-auto 5Sevens, with the real-deal AP ammo, is entirely the fault of the "lax gun laws" in the United States. He blithely ignores the fact that civvies can't get the SS190 (standard-duty AP) ammo here, and that the P-90 and 5Seven are issue weapons for elements of the Mexican military (or that the P-90 is not available for civilian sale and that the semi-auto-only PS-90 and 5Seven are $1600+ and $1000+ rarities, respectively, here in the US), even when said documented facts are pointed out to him.
He also insists that the presence in Sinaloa-cartel hands of some seven semi-auto Kalashnikov rifles originally sold in Phoenix (no mention of HOW LONG AGO they were sold in Phoenix...) proves that the US gun market is stocking the Mexican drug cartels with their firearms, C4, and grenades (pointing out the governmental limitations of sale of military explosives like C4 and grenades to him is as futile as pointing out that Mexican drug lords using cartridges not available for sale to US civilians cannot be an indicator that our "lax gun laws" are the problem). Don't EVEN get him started on how it's wrong to demand that the Mexicans work on border porosity from their end, either - apparently it's evil and totally wrong for us to allow the Iron River of evilnastybaduglyGUNNNZZZZ11!!!!1!one! to flow INTO Mexico, but there's absolutely no problem at all with with sending hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants across that same border in the other direction.
Yeah, reason and logic and fact don't seem to be stock-in-trade for many of our opponents in the victim-disarmament discussion. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, reason and logic and fact don't seem to be stock-in-trade for many of our opponents in the victim-disarmament discussion
Why bother with logic and fact when you can pass off emotions, opinions, and lies as truth? It's easier than doing actual research...
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Over on one of the Yahoo gun boards, there's a guy (insert your own, less-complimentary phrase as a substitute for "guy") who INSISTS that the cartels' use of FN select-fire P-90s and semi-auto 5Sevens, with the real-deal AP ammo, is entirely the fault of the "lax gun laws" in the United States. He blithely ignores the fact that civvies can't get the SS190 (standard-duty AP) ammo here, and that the P-90 and 5Seven are issue weapons for elements of the Mexican military (or that the P-90 is not available for civilian sale and that the semi-auto-only PS-90 and 5Seven are $1600+ and $1000+ rarities, respectively, here in the US), even when said documented facts are pointed out to him.
He also insists that the presence in Sinaloa-cartel hands of some seven semi-auto Kalashnikov rifles originally sold in Phoenix (no mention of HOW LONG AGO they were sold in Phoenix...) proves that the US gun market is stocking the Mexican drug cartels with their firearms, C4, and grenades (pointing out the governmental limitations of sale of military explosives like C4 and grenades to him is as futile as pointing out that Mexican drug lords using cartridges not available for sale to US civilians cannot be an indicator that our "lax gun laws" are the problem). Don't EVEN get him started on how it's wrong to demand that the Mexicans work on border porosity from their end, either - apparently it's evil and totally wrong for us to allow the Iron River of evilnastybaduglyGUNNNZZZZ11!!!!1!one! to flow INTO Mexico, but there's absolutely no problem at all with with sending hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants across that same border in the other direction.
Yeah, reason and logic and fact don't seem to be stock-in-trade for many of our opponents in the victim-disarmament discussion. :rolleyes:
He sounds like a well-fed troll.
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Ever seen a guy with an AK47 rampaging?
Your arugment is invalid and exactly the same that the antis use in their plan to disarm us.
You've obviously never been the victim of "trigger slap" from a SAR-1. =(
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You've obviously never been the victim of "trigger slap" from a SAR-1. =(
I mean it figuratively.
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Meth became a larger problem as other drugs got a notional amount more expensive and marginally harder to get.
Why pay for imported coke/crack when you can cook up meth in your own kitchen?
The War on Drugs, in what minimal successes it can claim, is directly responsible for the recent increase in meth use; much as heavy policing in one physical area or type of crime simply transfers that crime to other areas or fields, it doesn't reduce the total volume.
Let the potential addicts get their heroin, coke and weed safely and more cheaply and meth use will decrease. Even the people who use have to be saying they'd like a less nasty way to get high.
Remove the illegality and use will not go up among the population but the violence, which is both directly and indirectly tied to criminalization, will decrease dramatically.
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A lot of totally unlicensed flamethrowers at Knob Creek each year. Not to mention the kid from Something Awful forums who built his own.
Flamethrowers are one thing. Weapons that project flaming objects are another and I think the ATF has said that they may be considered as destructive devices.
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Flamethrowers are one thing. Weapons that project flaming objects are another and I think the ATF has said that they may be considered as destructive devices.
What are you talking about? Jamis said he was worried about getting arrested for having a flamethrower; I pointed out they're totally legal.
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Even the people who use have to be saying they'd like a less nasty way to get high.
During one of our state DARE Association meeting, a supervisor with the drug team up in your area said "No self-respecting cokehead would touch meth".
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During one of our state DARE Association meeting, a supervisor with the drug team up in your area said "No self-respecting cokehead would touch meth".
" a self-respecting cokehead..." He actually said that with a straight face?
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" a self-respecting cokehead..." He actually said that with a straight face?
Like Sigmund Freud, I suppose.
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" a self-respecting cokehead..." He actually said that with a straight face?
For certain degrees of self-respect I guess.
Not every drug user is inherently a drug "abuser". There may be more risk of dependency but the concept that someone can't be a functioning coke (or pot, or smack) head in exactly the same fashion as people can be functioning alcoholics their entire adult lives is a myth created by the "War on Drugs".