Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Desertdog on January 31, 2009, 10:02:56 AM
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How to eliminate compitition. Regulate them out of business. This will reduce the independent dealers and increase the big oil stations and probably raise the price of our gas by several cents per gallon, not the 0.68 cents per gallon as stated in the story.
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_11563313
Mandate could force gas stations out of business
By Alfred Lee Staff Writer
ARCADIA - Dozens of gas stations around California are choosing to shut down rather than comply with a state mandate that would require owners to purchase new equipment to reduce vapor emissions at the pump.
The requirement, known as Phase II in the state's Enhanced Vapor Recovery Program, is set to go into effect in April. It requires gas station owners to individually purchase tens of thousands of dollars of equipment designed to prevent harmful vapors from escaping into the air when gasoline is pumped.
Related Story: Exxon Mobil shatters US record for annual profit
But smaller retailers say that the requirement puts an unfair burden on businesses that don't sell enough gasoline to offset the extra cost - and that don't contribute much to the problem in the first place.
Among them is George Fasching, who after 31 years of selling gasoline at Fasching's Car Wash in Arcadia, stopped in December.
I came to the decision that I was too small a volume operator to continue on with the expenses imposed by the bureaucracy of the state," Fasching said.
April's requirements would have cost him $35,000, he said. Fasching used to sell the gasoline as a convenience for his car wash customers, and blames the new regulations for forcing him to stop.
"It will have some effect on my business, but at least I have the relief that I don't have to deal with these people anymore," he said.
As of the end of December 2008, the South Coast Air Quality Management District had heard back from 3,109 of its 4,500 sites about EVR Phase II.
Seventy-six - or 2.4 percent - indicated they will be shutting down on April 1, 2009 rather than upgrade their sites, said Dimitri Stanich, public information officer for the California Air Resources Board.
Some 1,400 of the SCAQMD's sites have not yet responded. About 12,000 dispensing facilities will be affected statewide.
Many of those shutting down their pumps are in fact city facilities and businesses with their own dispensers, such as fire stations and construction companies.
"What you're going to find is that some of these are not retail gasoline facilities, but a business that has had their own private gas pump for some time," SCAQMD spokesman Sam Atwood said. "They're deciding for their own business reasons at this time that they're not going to renew their permit."
April's regulations promise to cut what are known as reactive organic gas emissions by 7 tons per day statewide, but opponents point to the fact that California produces 2,322 tons of such gases per day.
CARB officials believe the requirement is a manageable and necessary cost to curb air pollution and smog and to protect public health.
"We do calculate the cost of compliance with the regulation as related to emissions," Stanich said. "These costs could be recovered by raising gasoline prices by an average 0.68 cents per gallon."
Cost-effectiveness for the whole EVR program was estimated at $5.24 per pound of emissions, he said.
Anything under $10 per pound is generally considered cost-efficient.
Lower-volume sellers would have to raise prices more to offset costs, he added.
Vapor emissions contain hydrocarbons that combine with other molecules in the air to form ground-level ozone, which is known to cause numerous adverse health effects, including reducing lung function in children.
alfred.lee@sgvn.com
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...and my father-in-law keeps telling me to move to kali, I'll make more money there.... ;/
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I thought Big Oil was our enemy?
Are we still at war with Eurasia? Haven't we been at war with East Asia?
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I thought Big Oil was our enemy?
Are we still at war with Eurasia? Haven't we been at war with East Asia?
In other news, chocolate rations have been raised from 20 to 30 grams per week.
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Choco ration has been increased? That's double plus good, Winston, er, Viking. =D
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Choco ration has been increased? That's double plus good, Winston, er, Viking. =D
I would even go as far as calling it triple-plus good! Victory Chocolate for the masses! I'm going to get myself a glass of Victory gin now.
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I thought Big Oil was our enemy?
Are we still at war with Eurasia? Haven't we been at war with East Asia?
Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia.
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I think TX already has some kind of law like that. At any rate, I have yet to find a gas station around DFW that doesn't have the vapor-recovery cruffle. I have to admit I really noticed when I went to OH and smelled gas when fueling up.
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Oh teh noes! Smelling gas when pumping gas at a gas station! :O
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California has had vapor emissions reduction at their gas stations since 1980, maybe before that. I don't see what's wrong with their present system. California gas stations rarely stink like one's in other places. I think these people are grasping at straws in order to fix their air quality problem. I really don't believe that it's caused by gas stations. I DO know that the prevailing winds (or lack of) is a big contributor to their air quality problems.
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California has had vapor emissions reduction at their gas stations since 1980, maybe before that. I don't see what's wrong with their present system.
As I said at the beginning How to eliminate compitition. Regulate them out of business.
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So, if they install this equipment, I can smoke cigs while pumping my gas?
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So, if they install this equipment, I can smoke cigs while pumping my gas?
Why not I already get dirty looks when smoking and pumping. Its fun to put fear into stupid people.
You have about as much of a chance lighting the fumes with your muzzle blast (when shooting the guy robbing you wile you are pumping) as you do as smoking a butt. Their just not hot enough to do the job.
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Why not I already get dirty looks when smoking and pumping. Its fun to put fear into stupid people.
You have about as much of a chance lighting the fumes with your muzzle blast (when shooting the guy robbing you wile you are pumping) as you do as smoking a butt. Their just not hot enough to do the job.
:O
There was a truck that went up in flames in this area a few weeks ago because the driver had a static electricity discharge near the fuel nozzle after he got back in the cab after starting the pump and then went to put the nozzle back up...
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California would get the hint if people just LEFT.
Best decision I ever made.
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Why not I already get dirty looks when smoking and pumping. Its fun to put fear into stupid people.
You have about as much of a chance lighting the fumes with your muzzle blast (when shooting the guy robbing you wile you are pumping) as you do as smoking a butt. Their just not hot enough to do the job.
I hope this was a spoof.
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I hope this was a spoof.
I wouldnt smoke near a gas station, but most fires are actually caused by static, i.e. people getting in and out of their cars, than anything else IIRC.
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I hope this was a spoof.
No I wasn't kidding. I worked at a station when I was younger. Ya I know this is jersey we don't have to pump it ourselves.
But its diesel nowadays for me.
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..but most fires are actually caused by static...
Hence the Neo-Pagan directive; Always be sure one is properly Grounded.
But Fluffy-Bunny that that Kaliistinaites are, they mouth the phrase but ignore the wisdom.
Flame on, Dude! =D
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I wouldnt smoke near a gas station, but most fires are actually caused by static, i.e. people getting in and out of their cars, than anything else IIRC.
That makes sense considering that very few people smoke at the pump.
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I'm personally skeptical as to a cigarette butt's ability to light gasoline. The whole sparks and butane flame from lighting them is another matter.
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I'm personally skeptical as to a cigarette butt's ability to light gasoline. The whole sparks and butane flame from lighting them is another matter.
I've seen cigarette butts ignite dry vegetation. I don't think they'd have a problem igniting gasoline.
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Sounds like a job for myth busters.
Anyone want to send it in?
"List guys-I always get dirty looks for smoking at the pump. Could you please show the world that a little ciggie ash and flame can't ignite gasoline? It'd make my day a whole lot easier."
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That makes sense considering that very few people are stupid enough to smoke at the pump.
Fixed it for you.
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Where there's smoke there's...
We've had them in St. Louis for about 15 or so years...
Seem to work.
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Did some googling. Ignition temperature of gasoline is around 500 deg F. The temperature at the end of a lit cigarette is ~750 degrees F, more than enough to ignite gasoline.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ShaniChristopher.shtml
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm
No Mythbusters needed for this one.
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Where there's smoke there's...
We've had them in St. Louis for about 15 or so years...
Seem to work.
The ridiculous emissions control things?
Seen them in pics, never fueled from one.
CARB needs to be told to shove it...
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Maybe not fair, gal smoking is caught on fire at gas station pumping gas. She had both static and the cancer stick working against her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRVVrGZLsz8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRVVrGZLsz8)
Boy caught on fire by brother smoking a cigarette at gas station:
http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/idaho/stories/NW_021807IDNgasstationfireSW.122e43af.html (http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/idaho/stories/NW_021807IDNgasstationfireSW.122e43af.html)
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I've seen cigarette butts ignite dry vegetation. I don't think they'd have a problem igniting gasoline.
How about tracers?
I know tracers will ignite dry vegetation...
*whistles, wanders*...
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Gasoline has some peculiar ignition properties. Like many volatile liquids, the liquid itself isn't combustible, it's actually the vapors that ignite. And even then, the vapors are only flammable when mixed with oxygen in the right proportions.
I bet you could fire a tracer straight through a can of gasoline without igniting it, or drop a lit cigarette into one. So long as the can is sealed, the vapors would probably be too concentrated to ignite.
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Gasoline has some peculiar ignition properties. Like many volatile liquids, the liquid itself isn't combustible, it's actually the vapors that ignite. And even then, the vapors are only flammable when mixed with oxygen in the right proportions.
I bet you could fire a tracer straight through a can of gasoline without igniting it, or drop a lit cigarette into one. So long as the can is sealed, the vapors would probably be too concentrated to ignite.
If the can doesn't explode, which I would bet on it doing, what will happen when you open to see that nothing happened?
The concentration seems to matter more for explosive potential with gasoline. Sort of like how you can light natural gas on fire and it burns smoothly to cook your meals, but if it builds up to the right gas/air mix and then gets lit....kaboom.
Either way the gasoline is going to burn (assuming any oxygen available at all), it's just that the vapours may explode.
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It isn't a good Knob Creek, unless the hill catches on fire at one time or another. The -best- one was when they actually had to call the fire department.
And they go through a LOT of gasoline there too...
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I bet you could fire a tracer straight through a can of gasoline without igniting it, or drop a lit cigarette into one. So long as the can is sealed, the vapors would probably be too concentrated to ignite.
I've personally dropped a lit cigarette into a pan of gasoline. The cigarette goes out. Same for diesel. I also once poured at least a gallon of gasoline down a yellow-jacket nest in the ground. It wouldn't light. About the only thing that happened is the vapors wafting out of the opening would light on fire, and then usually go out from the breeze. I still think it killed the yellow jackets though.
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Right. Gasoline needs oxygen to combust. When you're pumping gas, you're not swimming around in gasoline; you're breathing in Nitrogen (heh), oxygen, and fuel vapors. If you're unlucky, and possibly spill a bit of fuel, and the vapor gets into the air, FWOOM!
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How about tracers?
I know tracers will ignite dry vegetation...
*whistles, wanders*...
So will 81mm mortars. Chuckle, chuckle, sob...
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If the can doesn't explode, which I would bet on it doing, what will happen when you open to see that nothing happened?
If the tracer passes through liquid gasoline, nothing happens, as there is no oxygen present.
If the tracer passes through gasoline vapor above the liqiud in the tank, probably nothing will happen, as the oxygen content is likely too low. YMMV for various reasons.
If you open the can after the tracer passes through to see what is happening inside, again nothing will happen*, because the source of ignition is long gone.
* Except you might get a little gas leaking out of the can onto your shoes. Watch out for those vapors if you are smoking.
Mythbusters had fun with this one already.
ETA: Gasoline vapor - Lower Explosive Limit = 1.2%, Upper Explosive Limit = 7.1%. That is a pretty narrow range.
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ETA: Gasoline vapor - Lower Explosive Limit = 1.2%, Upper Explosive Limit = 7.1%. That is a pretty narrow range.
Otherwise, Below 1.25% = no flame, above 7.15% = no flame. That is only two of the three legs for combustion. The third leg is HEAT.
Oxygen in the right amount, fuel in the right concentration, and high enough heat, you will have anything from a fire to a disasterous explosion.
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So will 81mm mortars. Chuckle, chuckle, sob...
Tracers, though, go there on purpose. You can be firing down a dirt range, with a wide area of sand, and a tracer will still bounce off the target and go off into the brush, and then there will be a whole lot of smoke a second later and you have to yell for a cease fire and run down the range with a shovel and all... :lol:
I think the stupidest one was when a 9mm tracer set the target on fire, though. I'm still not sure how it did that. Shoot the target, and it's on fire a few seconds later, burning bits drifting around it. I hadn't thought it would be in contact long enough...