Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: GeoJAP on February 20, 2009, 01:00:52 PM
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Article Link (http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=7451&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=&S=1)
The purpose of the April 2-5 drill will be to gather intelligence, then search for and apprehend a suspected weapons dealer(1), according to Sgt. Mike Kots, readiness NCO for Alpha Company.
Soldiers will knock only at households that have agreed to participate in the drill, Kots noted.
"Once credible intelligence has been gathered," said Kots, "portions of the town will be road-blocked and more in-depth searches of homes and vehicles will be conducted in accordance with the residents' wishes.
"One of the techniques we use in today's political environment is cordon and knock," Kots explained. "We ask for the head of the household, get permission to search, then have them open doors and cupboards.(2) The homeowner maintains control. We peer over their shoulder, and the soldier uses the homeowner's body language and position to protect him.(3)"
During this phase of the operation, troops will interact with residents and media while implementing crowd-control measures(4) and possibly treating and evacuating injured persons.
In addition to surveillance, searching and apprehension, the exercise will also give the troops valuable experience in stability, support, patrol, traffic control, vehicle searches(5) and other skills needed for deployment in an urban environment.
"It will be important for us to gain the trust and confidence of the residents of Arcadia," said Kots. "We will need to identify individuals that are willing to assist us(6) in training by allowing us to search their homes and vehicles and to participate in role-playing."
The Army and National Guard are coming, Americans. They are drilling now to search your homes.
1) Why is the ARMY drilling to search homes and capture a 'weapons dealer' in American towns? If someone is illegally selling weapons, that is a police matter.
2) The Army cannot search private vehicles unless martial law has been declared or unless there is armed revolt against the government.
3) Use the homeowner's body language to protect the homeowner? Is this doublespeak?
4) Crowd control measures needed to find a 'weapons dealer'? Something doesn't make sense. Sounds like crowd control would be necessary because American citizens would not let the Army search their homes.
5) Why is the Army practicing surveillance, searching, apprehension and vehicle searches on Americans in the USA?
6) Identify people who will assist them when they come to search our homes???
WTF
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Wait, wait...that is a real newspaper.
What.
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I hate to be the one to tell you, but this tactic has been a part of the Ntl Guard training since the mid 1990's. I had a conversation with a Major I knew well and asked if he understood what would happen if they did it for real. His answer was, "That is the day I resign my commission". They have planned for cordoning off every arms dealer, and any neighborhood considered to be a "high risk" area.
At least it has been planned and practiced for in Arizona, I can't say about the other states, although I suspect it is true of the others as well.
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His answer was, "That is the day I resign my commission".
Nope. By then, it will be years too late.
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I hate to be the one to tell you, but this tactic has been a part of the Ntl Guard training since the mid 1990's. I had a conversation with a Major I knew well and asked if he understood what would happen if they did it for real. His answer was, "That is the day I resign my commission". They have planned for cordoning off every arms dealer, and any neighborhood considered to be a "high risk" area.
Wrong answer. Should have been "That is the day I choose a new target."
Doesn't do any good if the good guys all quit and leave the bad guys to do the job. One of the things preventing that sort of abuse is the amount of good people in the military who would stand with the citizens against tyranny. It doesn't help if they quit and turn in their gear!
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When I was in the NG, it was not uncommon to ask permission of local places to use whatever for training. Every range or training lane on base was always booked up. Out in Western PA, the old closed portions of the PA Turnpike are used for convoy training. We did "air assault" training on the football stadium at Millersville University. We'd ask permission of the local township and police to cordon off streets for ruck marching through urban areas.
Practicing entry and searching on US homes, even with owner permission, would probably be good training for Iraq. But politically a very bad idea. A smarter idea would be find a house still in construction (with the frames up, but not drywall) and ask to use it for practicing entry. Sure, it's not as good, but no one would be offended and everyone would have a chance to observe the squad at practice. You'd have a much better AAR.
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My first thought was that they didn't have access to a real training facility, so they had asked a town to let them train for Iraq using volunteer homes. If that's the case it's maybe a bad PR move for not communicating what they were doing, but not wrong per se.
If they are training to actually do this sort of thing in America then that's a big WTF? Any of our resident NG types want to fill us in?
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When I was in the NG, it was not uncommon to ask permission of local places to use whatever for training. Every range or training lane on base was always booked up. Out in Western PA, the old closed portions of the PA Turnpike are used for convoy training. We did "air assault" training on the football stadium at Millersville University. We'd ask permission of the local township and police to cordon off streets for ruck marching through urban areas.
Practicing entry and searching on US homes, even with owner permission, would probably be good training for Iraq. But politically a very bad idea. A smarter idea would be find a house still in construction (with the frames up, but not drywall) and ask to use it for practicing entry. Sure, it's not as good, but no one would be offended and everyone would have a chance to observe the squad at practice. You'd have a much better AAR.
What you described doesn't add up to what they are doing here though. The crowd control, leaving base in a huge convoy, searching for a weapons dealer, and searching homes with the home owners is more than using a different building because the first choice on base wasn't available. This sounds pretty different.
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If they are training to actually do this sort of thing in America then that's a big WTF? Any of our resident NG types want to fill us in?
I'm sure we could call Sgt Mike Kots and ask him? He's probably in the phone book.
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They're saying they're asking for people to volunteer to do this.
But then portions of the town are going to be roadblocked.
How, exactly, is that supposed to work, if you did not agree to take part?
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how is this any different that exercises conducted near fort bragg? aside from shifting to as more urban enviroment, in keeping with the places troops are currently fighting.
not a threat till wnd, newsmax, or prison planet says it is
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Either "notional" ie pretend, roadblocks or barricades put up but anyone who's not playing just waved through. After all, if the town .gov can block off streets for movie production and such like, why not let the NG do it to train.
And Geo, all the points you mentioned "leaving in a huge convoy etc" are pretty much exactly what my unit did whenever we trained. Of course we always did it at another base, but IF that had been available and IF we had contracted with a willing town, that's what I would expect to see.
I'll hold my outrage until I know if this is just poor communication mixed with ignorant and sensationalistic "journalism" or an actual exercise to get ready to move against Americans.
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I've done volunteer work with the Guard before, as I have many friends in the Guard from my old Army days. I'm not going to be quick to jump to a conclusion here. I'm going to assume that this is training for deployment. At the same time, I may ask around tonight during basketball with the guys...
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Either "notional" ie pretend, roadblocks or barricades put up but anyone who's not playing just waved through. After all, if the town .gov can block off streets for movie production and such like, why not let the NG do it to train.
And Geo, all the points you mentioned "leaving in a huge convoy etc" are pretty much exactly what my unit did whenever we trained. Of course we always did it at another base, but IF that had been available and IF we had contracted with a willing town, that's what I would expect to see.
I'll hold my outrage until I know if this is just poor communication mixed with ignorant and sensationalistic "journalism" or an actual exercise to get ready to move against Americans.
Thanks for the clarification, that helps.
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how is this any different that exercises conducted near fort bragg?
Beat me to it. Bragg was doing this stuff years ago (I went to school near Bragg and took one of my grad school classes at our satellite campus on base).
Chris
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On a kinda related note, did any NG unit take place in the gun confiscation after Katrina? I thought it was just LE agencies (mostly ones from Kali and NJ too iirc).
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On a kinda related note, did any NG unit take place in the gun confiscation after Katrina? I thought it was just LE agencies (mostly ones from Kali and NJ too iirc).
I had thought it was CHP that did the beatdown on the old lady.
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I had thought it was CHP that did the beatdown on the old lady.
It was.
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What you described doesn't add up to what they are doing here though. The crowd control, leaving base in a huge convoy, searching for a weapons dealer, and searching homes with the home owners is more than using a different building because the first choice on base wasn't available. This sounds pretty different.
... Actually, that calls for exactly the skill set required for Iraq. Crowd control is obvious. You travel between FOB's in convoys. Much of the door kicking in Iraq is looking for weapons or explosives. etc, etc. If they focused on detaining civvies, securing major roadways, practicing assaulting infrastructure related buildings, and practice building large detention facilities, then start worrying. But from your description, it reads just like the training we were giving to soldiers down at Shelby.
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The other day in the paper (Des Moines Register) the Commander of the Iowa National Guard stated that more deployments will be happening in the future. All the Carrol outift is doing is training for this future deployment, better to do it a few times with friendlies then learn as you go with unfriendlies.
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I've been a member of a Military Police Company in the Army National Guard for over 2 years, and we have never even once spoke of, been briefed on, let alone done training on the entering and searching of American homes. This is not happening everywhere folks. This sounds very much like training for an overseas deployment.
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I think it was the Oklahoma national guard that was going door to door consicating firearms during Katrina.
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Well, when I opened the link I expected the Worldnet Daily. But its a real paper. Then I expected to see how this was training for Iraq or Afghanistan. Nada. And who is the focus of this "exercise"? Not a suicide bomber, or a Taliban leader. A suspected arms dealer.
Is this training for Obama's Domestic Forces?
Who here has a representative or Senator in Iowa?
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RevDisk's right. This is a Drill training for cordon and searches in Iraq. Odds are high that these guys are deploying soon. What is described is exactly how we search villages here in the sandbox. It's good training, and not every unit has the funds to build a mock village and hire OPFOR. If the citizens are willing to help it's good training. I've been in a few exercises hat involved volunteer civilians, and they work well, because civilians are unpredictable. We (the army) have been doing this for decades. Absent some new directive from the CINC this is not sinister.
FWIW, I think the door to door stuff, if it happens, will come from federal law enforcement, not the Army.
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If I'm deploying to Iraq and am training up for it, I want realistic training. I'd get that training in this sort of exercise. It's what some units in Iraq do on a daily basis.
When I was in the Guard, we used to do all kinds of training "out in the public". We'd do route recons and bridge assessments. No one was too upset to see M151s with M60s and 105 RRs [later in my time it was Hummers with M60 and TOWs] mounted on them pulled off the road with some in overwatch positions while soldiers with M16s were "snooping and pooping" around and under bridges.
We'd do tactical road marches with all of our gear fairly regularily through downtown.
Once we did a tactical vehicle movement to a under NBC alert conditions. I admit that one raised a few eyebrows. Some people thought they needed protective masks and didn't believe us when we said it was just training when they saw the advance team sweeping the area with radiacmeters. They were sure there was a problem and they were going to die.
However, to be honest, many of the tactics soldiers learn "could" someday be used in America for some gun confiscation plan. I don't see it happening. And what would the answer be- don't let soldiers learn anything that may be used here. They have to train.
Heck, if it was happening in my area, I'd probably volunteer to help. It'd be fun.
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sadly
And while Hapgood confirmed the Guard had been inundated with objections from citizens concerned about soldiers patrolling the streets of an American town, he said most came from people out of state and unfamiliar with the operation. Iowans, he explained, typically cooperate with the Guard. The change in plans was based on troop evaluation, he said, not public outcry.
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"There are no active duty bases in Iowa, so there are no urban warfare training areas of any size," Hopgood said. "In order to get that larger neighborhood feel or city feel, we have to be creative and partner with our communities."
Hopgood further told WND that in past cooperative exercises with the community, the people of Iowa have welcomed learning how their sons and daughters operate in action.
Plans for the urban operation training, Hopgood explained, are still set to continue, but will be conducted in a smaller, platoon-by-platoon basis in the near vicinity of the Carroll armory.
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What you described doesn't add up to what they are doing here though. The crowd control, leaving base in a huge convoy, searching for a weapons dealer, and searching homes with the home owners is more than using a different building because the first choice on base wasn't available. This sounds pretty differen
Like others have said, this is exactly how you would do it in Iraq. You need inner and outer cordon to keep troublemakers out and any bad guys in. You HAVE to move in a large convoy a) for security and b) so that you have enough dismounts to actually do the search. Bradleys or Strykers can carry a whole squad, but a HMMWV can only carry a couple of dismounts. To have enough guys on the ground to do a search you need to bring a fair number of HMWWVs. The "weapons dealer" part is a little iffy, but "EFP supplier" or "IED manufacturer" or "insurgent weapons cache" could easily get garbled into "weapons dealer."
Searching homes with homeowner consent is most of what we do in Iraq now. It's called "cordon and KNOCK", instead of "cordon and search." It's hard to win hearts and minds, an essential counterinsurgency task, if you are kicking in innocent peoples' doors in the middle of the night.
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We don't do ""let's nuke the place" as a "solution" to all of our ills" on this board.
If that's the best you can come up with... don't.