Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Nitrogen on March 02, 2009, 11:27:50 AM
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The study is here:
http://www.mercatus.org/PublicationDetails.aspx?id=26154
The PDF with the details is here:
http://www.mercatus.org/uploadedFiles/Mercatus/Publications/Freedom%20in%20the%2050%20States.pdf
I mostly have to agree with what I read here. In 2005, I moved from California (Overall freedom index of -0.413) to Texas, the largest, most economic diverse state at the top of the list. (Overall freedom index of 0.346) NH is at the top with 0.432.
When people ask me why I moved to a state where I might disagree with a good bit of the political views of its residents, I have yet something else I can point to that tries to explain it.
I've put the overall freedom ranking below so you don't have to read the report just to see it, but the report ranks all sorts of freedoms.
I'm curious what the rest of you think, that live in other high and low scoring states?
Table V: Overall Freedom Ranking
State Overall Free dom
1. New Hampshire 0.432
2. Colorado 0.421
3. South Dakota 0.392
4. Idaho 0.356
5. Texas 0.346
6. Missouri 0.320
7. Tennessee 0.284
8. Arizona 0.279
9. Virginia 0.275
10. North Dakota 0.268
11. Utah 0.250
12. Kansas 0.210
13. Indiana 0.208
14. Michigan 0.206
15. Wyoming 0.193
16. Iowa 0.183
17. Georgia 0.146
18. Oklahoma 0.143
19. Montana 0.125
20. Pennsylvania 0.102
21. Alabama 0.092
22. Florida 0.068
23. North Carolina 0.019
24. Nevada 0.013
25. Mississippi -0.004
26. Delaware -0.008
27. Oregon -0.009
28. Nebraska -0.018
29. Arkansas -0.023
30. South Carolina -0.040
31. Alaska -0.071
32. Kentucky -0.082
33. West Virginia -0.097
34. Louisiana -0.110
35. Minnesota -0.111
36. New Mexico -0.150
37. Wisconsin -0.199
38. Ohio -0.205
39. Maine -0.214
40. Vermont -0.217
41. Connecticut -0.225
42. Illinois -0.238
43. Massachusetts -0.242
44. Washington -0.275
45. Hawaii -0.304
46. Maryland -0.405
47. California -0.413
48. Rhode Island -0.430
49. New Jersey -0.457
50. New York -0.784
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For now. We're being invaded by massholes who, having escaped high-tax nanny state socialism for a "better quality of life", then go and vote for high-tax nanny state socialist candidates as soon as they arrive here.
Escape a burning house, move into a new one, go "ooo, matches!". That's a masshole transplant.
We just lost the capable Sununu for Shaheen "the tax machine" due to them.
I know this happens to states surrounding CA, too. It's like locusts invading after destroying the fields they started in. They move on and destroy another, and then move on, and...
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I'm surprised how far down Wy and Mt are. Under Michigan?!?!
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Ah, Colorado is number 2! I'll be there in less than four years.
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Wyoming is 14. *snicker*
Wonder what big, green book boy has to say? =D
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For now. We're being invaded by massholes who, having escaped high-tax nanny state socialism for a "better quality of life", then go and vote for high-tax nanny state socialist candidates as soon as they arrive here.
Escape a burning house, move into a new one, go "ooo, matches!". That's a masshole transplant.
We just lost the capable Sununu for Shaheen "the tax machine" due to them.
I know this happens to states surrounding CA, too. It's like locusts invading after destroying the fields they started in. They move on and destroy another, and then move on, and...
If people want $$$ government services, by all means vote for them. My big problem is with the reluctance to pay for them in a sane manner.
Also, some of the way revenue was raised really torqued me off. For instance, to fund more light rail and other mass transit projects (that I could not econimically use) they raised BRIDGE TOLLS instead of raising the cost of taking mass transit. When I moved to CA, Bridge tolls were $1 a day (only one direction was toll-ed). When I left, it was $2, quickly on its way to $4. If those tolls went to bridge improvements, I'd probably have grudgingly approved.
Living in Texas, my property taxes nearly replace what I'd have paid in income taxes in California, but this is the thing: I have roads that aren't pothole farms here! When the roads start to get crusty, THEY ACTUALLY GET FIXED!
The state of Texas also does an amazing thing: They try and project growth and build roads in ADVANCE OF PROJECTED GROWTH instead of waiting 20-30 years when the proposed roads would already be over capacity!
Sure, I'd rather pay as little taxes as possible; but if what taxes I do pay are put to good use, I'm OK with it.
If I'm paying 50% of my income in taxes, and the average quality of life and income go up 400%, i'd probably live with it.
Unfortunately, it never works that way.
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I'm not sure how paying more income taxes is supposed to improve your quality of living.
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I'm not sure how paying more income taxes is supposed to improve your quality of living.
It doesn't. As I pointed to, NH and MA.
"Increased services" is code word for "more welfare".
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Higher taxes vastly improves the quality of life.... For the leeches on welfare. Kinda sucks for the producers being taxed tho.
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I'm not sure how paying more income taxes is supposed to improve your quality of living.
It doesn't. If it DID, I might be more amenable to it; thats the point I was trying to make.
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WOOT! MO is #6. Not too shabby.
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Can't follow the link atm, do they explain their methodology, especially in regards to weighting? Some of the scores seem a bit odd to me.
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Can't follow the link atm, do they explain their methodology, especially in regards to weighting? Some of the scores seem a bit odd to me.
Yes they do, in decent detail in the attached PDF.
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Maine's Rankings
Fiscal Policy #38 with -0.23
Regulatory Policy #50 with -0.18
Economic Freedom #39 with -0.406
Personal Freedom #2 with .193
Overall Freedom #39 with -0.214
Maine's State Profile
Maine comes in second worst on economic freedom
and second best on personal freedom, summing
to #39 overall. Its rural character has preserved its
relatively free firearms regime, but it also has the second
highest overall taxes in the country, after New
York. Property taxes are highest in the country, and
sales and individual income taxes are also high. The
first offense of low-level marijuana possession carries
only a fine, and low-level cultivation is a misdemeanor.
The state also has medical marijuana exceptions,
and the maximum sentence for a single marijuana
offense is 10 years. Several kinds of gaming (but
not casinos) are permitted. Educational policies are
about average; the state could improve substantially
here by ending standardized testing requirements for
homeschoolers and requiring parental notification
only once (or never) rather than annually. Maine has
a good asset forfeiture regime and allows same-sex
domestic partnerships. Cigarette taxes are high, and
smoking bans are airtight everywhere except workplaces.
The minimum wage is astonishingly high for a
low-wage state. The state has adopted strict community
rating for health insurance and has also legislated
many mandates (a bad combination, since price controls
and heavy regulations are likely to drive profit
margins close to zero and thus drive private insurers
out of state). Occupational licensing is worst in the
country (tied with Arkansas). The state does boast
a good liability system, but it could stand to reform
eminent domain further. Maine and Arizona are the
only two states with public financing available for all
elections, funded out of general revenues.
They have an odd system, but it makes odd sense.
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That rating is done by Jason Sorens. Could this not affect its ratings of NH as compared to other states?
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The state of Texas also does an amazing thing: They try and project growth and build roads in ADVANCE OF PROJECTED GROWTH instead of waiting 20-30 years when the proposed roads would already be over capacity!
In the Austin area, the socialist greenies in the Austin City Clowncil for years refused to build roads, or go after state money, on the theory that "If we DON'T build it, they WON'T come."
A few years back they actually proposed tearing up some roads, and make what's essentially a four-lane highway into a two-lane country road. (I personally suspect some hanky-panky with the proposed appropriation process.)
They were wrong about growth and traffic - VERY wrong.
So . . .we have bad traffic problems, they're getting worse, and the only "solutions" (aided and abetted by our GOP governor) are . . . toll roads and light rail. Very, VERY, EXPENSIVE light rail. :mad:
Oh, and around 25% of the state tax on gasoline is pirated for other uses unrelated to transportation. :mad:
We're a lot better off than Kalifornia or Taxachusettes . . . but we ain't perfect by any means. And we've got Kalifornians coming in . . . and they're starting to vote for democRATS! :O
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That rating is done by Jason Sorens. Could this not affect its ratings of NH as compared to other states?
What basis do you have for accusations of unfairness? Their methodology seems fairly consistent and rigorous.
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What basis do you have for accusations of unfairness? Their methodology seems fairly consistent and rigorous.
I made no accusations of anything. I merely point out that Sorens has an interest in persuading people that NH is the freest state since Jason Sorens is the founder (http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/040223_schwartz_sorens.php) of the Free State Project. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj39JLE0erg)
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It doesn't. If it DID, I might be more amenable to it; thats the point I was trying to make.
That is a point that is sometimes hard to explain when I hear someone think it is okay to raise taxes. It is almost a natural law of government: The more money they get, the more inefficiently they use it. If the Govt won the lottery, it would likely end up as one of those tragic lottery stories.
Around Houston at least, they are starting to get greedy with toll roads. They are trying to build toy trains also. At least they are and have been improving the normal freeways though.
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California is not the worst? Wow.
I wonder if they took into account the recent/current budget mess, making CA the most heavily taxed state in the U.S.
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I made no accusations of anything. I merely point out that Sorens has an interest in persuading people that NH is the freest state since Jason Sorens is the founder (http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/040223_schwartz_sorens.php) of the Free State Project. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj39JLE0erg)
Unless you can point out a flaw in the methodology I fail to see how the man's personal beliefs or interests matter.
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California is not the worst? Wow.
I wonder if they took into account the recent/current budget mess, making CA the most heavily taxed state in the U.S.
aaaah, i would be moving up in freedom if i moved to ca. ny is worse than i thought.
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aaaah, i would be moving up in freedom if i moved to ca. ny is worse than i thought.
That's a sad statement right there.
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I made no accusations of anything. I merely point out that Sorens has an interest in persuading people that NH is the freest state since Jason Sorens is the founder (http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/040223_schwartz_sorens.php) of the Free State Project. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj39JLE0erg)
Ah, yes, the group whose antics have directly led to crackdowns and MORE laws where there were none, because there was nothing of concern that there needed to be a law about before the Free Staters started being stupid about doing it.
They really need to go somewhere else. Wyoming, perhaps. But in the middle of nowhere!
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Ok, looked over the data. A good overall view, but for my purposes home-schooling laws are far more important than alcohol and marijuana laws. Eminent domain and asset forfeiture could also be ranked higher imho.
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a free stater put pot laws with a high weighting? say it ain't so! :rolleyes:
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Pot law aren't a bad measure of freedom. But they aren't really relevant either.
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Ahhhh, The Peoples's Democratidoitic Republic of Illinois.
I'll be starting to tunnel out of here soon.
Our elected morons have decided that the best way to resolve the budget mess is to raise income taxes on both individuals and businesses. (Cutting the budget obviously never occured to them...)
Where's that facepalm ASCII thing........
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Pot law aren't a bad measure of freedom. But they aren't really relevant either.
brace yourself! i agree.
i think that were the mindset of our leaders more realistic pot laws would take care of themselves. the fact that its given a high weighting speaks more to the focus of the rater than the laws importance
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Their assessment of Alaska on economic freedom is completely uninformed or contextualized.
All of the state government costs are born by industry usage fees, there is no direct or even remotely applicable indirect cost to the state's citizens. We are a young state with a high debt ratio for basic public works projects still being constructed, we don't have the sunken cost infrastructure of other states. And again, the cost and debt associated does not devolve on the individual citizenry.
The high state and local spending per citizen must be controlled for the logistical differences between Alaska and the lower 48 to be at all meaningful. Most of the state is accessible only by small air transport or seasonal water access.
Given that much of the state is not economically viable for development due to logistics or Federal ownership, there aren't a great deal of opportunities for massive private employment, again, we've only had 50 years in any event.
Control for reality and we'd give old NH a run for their money.
Alaska’s big problem is fiscal policy. Over a quarter
of the state’s workforce is employed by state or
local government, and that figure does not include
federal employees. Alaska has the third highest debt
ratio in the country and the second highest state and
local government spending ratio. However, Alaska
does extremely well on personal freedom, scoring 1st
on our ranking. Reasons for its score include: fully
legalized possession of small amounts of marijuana
(accomplished through a court ruling), the best (least
restrictive) gun laws in the country, recognition of
same-sex domestic partnerships, and possibly the
best homeschooling laws in the country. On economic
regulation, Alaska could do better by reverting to the
federal minimum wage, adopting right-to-work, and
going much further with eminent domain reform.
Alaska has done relatively well on health insurance
regulation and occupational licensing.
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I'm surprised how far down Wy and Mt are. Under Michigan?!?!
Having moved from Michigan to Wyoming in 2007, I'd say this is dead wrong.
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Alaska looks good, but it just seems so inhospitable.
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Pot law aren't a bad measure of freedom. But they aren't really relevant either.
Why not?
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Because I have no interest in using pot? I'm sure we'd all love to live in a little libertarian utopia fantasy (except Maned :P ) but I'm more concerned with the things that have a direct impact on me.
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its amazing how important catching a buzz is. i was in a union that as part of our package we could drink beer at work and the company has to buy it for us. for obvious reasons that company would like to stop that. and it is a much more important issue than most would realize. the companies offered to compensate with more per hour fairly generously and the union/membership always go for beer over money.
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Because I have no interest in using pot? I'm sure we'd all love to live in a little libertarian utopia fantasy (except Maned :P ) but I'm more concerned with the things that have a direct impact on me.
How much of an interest do you think I have in using pot?
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/sigh.....
Why are you picking a fight Micro? I want to see it legalized too, and I know you aren't a stoner. I'm not sure why you're fussing.
No place is perfect. Of the imperfect choices available to me, I focus on the liberties that are most important to me. What's wrong with that?
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There is a difference between saying “I want to move into a place which is more free in the aspects of liberty that are directly relevant to me and mine” and saying “X is not important.”
As a matter of fact, even if we omit the moral issues involved with this given problem of drug prohibition, here's something to consider: No index is scientific and none may encompass all liberties (which is why I dislike indexes in the first place). There are dozens of issues on which legislators may have to decide tomorrow – say, regulations involving ATVs, or toys, or whatever. I would like to have a measure predicting at least vaguely how the locals would react to a completely new issue. A state with a higher freedom rating would , I suppose, be more liberal in deciding a new issue, even if the rating was achieved by ranking better in stuff that doesn't directly affect me. Does this make some form of sense?
[For the record: I view homeschooling as extremely important. Not only do I think it should be legal ,but I think that the world would be better if more people did it.]
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People seems to be confusing libertarianism i.e. personal freedom with a free State i.e. collective freedom.
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I reject your premise. Sadly, there are societal pressures at work outside your views of freedom. The mindset that opposes drugs and prostitution etc may be more restrictive in some areas, yet less restrictive in others. It's not a binary situation where "Oh, they oppose legalization so they will be more anti-freedom in all areas." And yes, over all the legality of drugs is a lower priority to me than a lot of other issues.
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The purpose of the index is not to cater to the individual things a given person cares for, but to create an overall index. Separate economic/homeschooling/drug freedom indexes exist already, published by various organizations.
As for me, I take it as a personal moral duty to work towards the end of prohibition. I consider it immoral to have people languishing in prison over victimless crime and for me to be free and not to try and help them.
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As for me, I take it as a personal moral duty to work towards the end of prohibition. I consider it immoral to have people languishing in prison over victimless crime and for me to be free and not to try and help them.
Because, of course, they won't still commit crimes to purchase their next hit of harder drugs, resulting in higher crime levels against innocent people...
Oh, yeah, and potheads driving vehicles. And being on welfare.
Again, try this condition. Sure, you can smoke pot. But you can't have a driver's license, and you're disqualified for welfare. And don't even bother with "bbbbbbbut alcohol!"
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in my experience the number of potheads commiting crimes to "get their next hit" is minscule. you need to factor in stealing change from mommys puse to get a real number. on the other hand i know quite a few drunks who steal to support their life style
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Because, of course, they won't still commit crimes to purchase their next hit of harder drugs, resulting in higher crime levels against innocent people...
Oh, yeah, and potheads driving vehicles. And being on welfare.
Again, try this condition. Sure, you can smoke pot. But you can't have a driver's license, and you're disqualified for welfare. And don't even bother with "bbbbbbbut alcohol!"
That's utter BS. You don't get to make blanket "but, but DUI on pot" and "potheads don't have jobs" utterly overstated blanket comments and then disregard alcohol as a comparison.
It is the most apt comparison as it is a legal drug with arguably worse effects on those intoxicated by it than pot has.
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That's utter BS. You don't get to make blanket "but, but DUI on pot" and "potheads don't have jobs" utterly overstated blanket comments and then disregard alcohol as a comparison.
It is the most apt comparison as it is a legal drug with arguably worse effects on those intoxicated by it than pot has.
Longterm memory loss, cognitive difficulty, the sort of things that make someone completely unemployable and apt to be on welfare? Hmm....that'd be pot, yes.
Which also lingers in the system WAY longer than even binge drinking. Drinking can ruin the liver, but pot's chemicals stick in the brain in a much more profound way.
Sorry. I have no respect for potheads. They can go tune out and sit around giggling at each other in a cloud till they die if they want, but not with a cent of taxpayer money to support them.
I also can't understand the obsession. Drinking is a habit. Marijuana is a religion.
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There are as many if not more functioning potheads in the country as there are functioning alcoholics. Just like booze, everyone who would abuse it already is.
To think that decriminalization would change that is laughable.
But we are seriously drifting this thread and I'm unlikely to get you to admit your absolute wrongness (nor are you mine). =D
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Again, try this condition. Sure, you can smoke pot. But you can't have a driver's license, and you're disqualified for welfare. And don't even bother with "bbbbbbbut alcohol!"
In my view, healthy, adult people should not be getting welfare.
A small sum of unemployment insurance to help you find a job is one thing. Putting a healthy person on welfare for years on end is just insane.
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Longterm memory loss, cognitive difficulty, the sort of things that make someone completely unemployable and apt to be on welfare? Hmm....that'd be pot, yes.
Which also lingers in the system WAY longer than even binge drinking. Drinking can ruin the liver, but pot's chemicals stick in the brain in a much more profound way.
Sorry. I have no respect for potheads. They can go tune out and sit around giggling at each other in a cloud till they die if they want, but not with a cent of taxpayer money to support them.
I also can't understand the obsession. Drinking is a habit. Marijuana is a religion.
It's obvious you've never known any hardcore drunks, ones that have been drunks longer than you've been alive.
"Longterm memory loss, cognitive difficulty, the sort of things that make someone completely unemployable and apt to be on welfare..." describes them to a "T".
Chris
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The purpose of the index is not to cater to the individual things a given person cares for, but to create an overall index. Separate economic/homeschooling/drug freedom indexes exist already, published by various organizations.
As for me, I take it as a personal moral duty to work towards the end of prohibition. I consider it immoral to have people languishing in prison over victimless crime and for me to be free and not to try and help them.
Sure, and that's all well and good. But we aren't operating in a vacuum here. Some things are more realistic to work towards than others. While I agree with legalizing victimless crimes, I still find it hard to be outraged over people who got caught breaking the law. Sure it's a bad law, and we should try to change it. But they took a risk and have to pay for it. Weighting that the same as or near to taxes, home-schooling, or the RKBA in terms of overall attitude towards freedom in a region is asinine.
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Weighting that the same as or near to taxes, home-schooling, or the RKBA in terms of overall attitude towards freedom in a region is asinine.
...why? I'm sort of failing to even grasp what you're talking about.
You seem to say:
That you agree drug prohibition is bad but you have problems feeling compassion towards those breaking it, and that it is somehow 'unrealistic' to work towards it ending. I fail to see how this means that the freedom to injest isn't a part of general freedom.
People in European countries have problems feeling compassion towards those caught with illegal .22 rifles in the same way, or towards the family of Melissa Busekros. This lack of compassion is not part of the solution.
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...why? I'm sort of failing to even grasp what you're talking about.
You seem to say:
That you agree drug prohibition is bad but you have problems feeling compassion towards those breaking it, and that it is somehow 'unrealistic' to work towards it ending. I fail to see how this means that the freedom to injest isn't a part of general freedom.
People in European countries have problems feeling compassion towards those caught with illegal .22 rifles in the same way, or towards the family of Melissa Busekros. This lack of compassion is not part of the solution.
You view drug use, prostitution etc etc as inalienable human rights. Many people do not. It's cultural thing. Because people hold those cultural views does not mean they are utterly hostile towards freedom. Those things are less important than things like the rkba because they are recreational. I should have the right to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but it's obviously not as important as the freedom from crushing taxes or random warrantless searches.
Many people who might be willing to move in a pro-freedom direction on many of the important issues will be turned off from your cause by militantly picking fights over smaller issues. They just will. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but disliking the truth doesn't change it. I'd rather worry first about securing the most important issues before getting into pissing contests over lesser issues.
Here's a good analogy. When budgeting, I first make sure food, shelter, transportation, and utilities are paid for. Savings, 401k, entertainment etc are important sure, but if the basic needs aren't taken care of the rest are pointless. Same with liberty. I want to insure I can carry a pistol, not lose property to eminent domain etc first, then I can start making sure no one goes to jail for stupid crap.
I don't like prohibition and helmet laws etc, but I can live with them. Eminent domain, gun control etc not so much.
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Longterm memory loss, cognitive difficulty, the sort of things that make someone completely unemployable and apt to be on welfare? Hmm....that'd be pot, yes.
Which also lingers in the system WAY longer than even binge drinking. Drinking can ruin the liver, but pot's chemicals stick in the brain in a much more profound way.
Sorry. I have no respect for potheads. They can go tune out and sit around giggling at each other in a cloud till they die if they want, but not with a cent of taxpayer money to support them.
I also can't understand the obsession. Drinking is a habit. Marijuana is a religion.
rarely has one person demonstrated less real knowledge/understanding in one place at one time, i am indeed impressed! to the best of my knowledge pot won't kill ya. or give ya wet brain.
the amount of cash we dole out supporting alcoholics and their progeny is enormous.
bear in mind i've spilt more of both than most folks will use so i am letting reality cloud my thoughts.methinks maned watched reefer adness a time too many
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rarely has one person demonstrated less real knowledge/understanding in one place at one time, i am indeed impressed!
Did you really have to be an ass about it?
Done.