Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Jocassee on March 31, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
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First off, my drive-by post of Mr. Paine's pamphlet was somewhat juvenile and probably annoying.
I posted it because I am frustrated and truly do not know what to say. A couple things were drawn to my attention today that made my head explode.
Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of these assessments.
First, as far as I can tell, President Obama "fired" the CEO of a private company in which the "U.S. taxpayer" has a share. Does he have any kind of authority to do that? Or even offer money in exchange for such an ouster?
Second, we have people (or a corporation) being sued for taxes owed retroactively on the bonuses which they have already been paid. I THOUGHT I remembered from Government class that his is illegal...somehow. Its definitely wrong, and the worst kind of treachery from a PR standpoint. Congress basically raped AIG.
Third, we have an administration that has said it is open to the dollar no longer being the world currency. Again...tell me if I'm wrong...wouldn't that devalue the dollar and hurt our economy?
Is no one else looking around, and thinking, WHERE THE FRAK IS THE OUTRAGE??!!! I can only think of one reason why Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, are taking this lying down: the Soviets won the Cold War, and we never even realized it.
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...the Soviets won the Cold War, and we never even realized it.
Well, kind of. Russian communism was one expression or instance of the statist religion that's been gathering adherents for the past 200 years or so.
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Second, we have people (or a corporation) being sued for taxes owed retroactively on the bonuses which they have already been paid. I THOUGHT I remembered from Government class that his is illegal...somehow. Its definitely wrong, and the worst kind of treachery from a PR standpoint. Congress basically raped AIG.
I think we will hear more about this in court. You're thinking of the ex post facto clause of the Constitution.
From the mighty Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law#United_States
In the United States, the federal government is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by Article I, section 9 of the U.S. Constitution and the states are prohibited from the same by clause 1 of section 10. This is one of the very few restrictions that the United States Constitution made to both the power of the federal and state governments prior to amendment. Over the years, when deciding ex post facto cases, the United States Supreme Court has referred repeatedly to its ruling in the Calder v. Bull case of 1798, in which Justice Chase established four categories of unconstitutional ex post facto laws. The case dealt with Article I, section 10, since it dealt with a Connecticut state law.
However, not all laws with ex post facto effects have been found to be unconstitutional. One current U.S. law that has an ex post facto effect is the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006. This law, which imposes new registration requirements on convicted sex offenders, gives the United States Attorney General the authority to apply the law retroactively.[2] The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Smith v. Doe (2003) that forcing sex offenders to register their whereabouts at regular intervals and the posting of personal information about them on the Internet does not violate the constitutional prohibition against ex post facto laws, because compulsory registration of offenders who completed their sentences before new laws requiring compliance went into effect does not constitute a punishment.[3]
Another example is the so-called Lautenberg law where firearms prohibitions were imposed on those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence offenses and subjects of restraining orders (which do not require a criminal conviction). These individuals can now be sentenced to up to 10 years in a federal prison for possession of a firearm, regardless of whether or not the weapon was legally possessed at the time the law was passed. Among those that it is claimed the law has affected is a father who was convicted of a misdemeanor of child abuse despite claims that he had only spanked his child, since anyone convicted of child abuse now faces a lifetime firearms prohibition. The law has been legally upheld because it is considered regulatory, not punitive - it is a status offense.
Finally, Calder v. Bull expressly stated that a law that "mollifies" a criminal act was merely retrospective and not an ex post facto law.
A large "exception" to the ex post facto prohibition can be found in administrative law, as federal agencies may apply their rules retroactively if Congress has authorized them to do so. Retroactive application is disfavored by the courts for a number of reasons,[4] but Congress may grant agencies this authority through express statutory provision. Furthermore, when an agency engages in adjudication, it may apply its own policy goals and interpretation of statutes retroactively, even if it has not formally promulgated a rule on a subject.
In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".
I think this current SCOTUS will be very critical of the words "legitimate" and "rational" in that last sentence if it comes to their attention. This is vindictive mob sentiment and serves no interest to the US Treasury, to the regulation of the economy or to the rule of law.
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Why?
a) There is no point to it. No one is listening to us anymore. We are those 'religious loons' that don't want free health care, a free car and to take from the rich. They think we all live in the backwoods of Alabama, marry our sisters, and love to maim bamby.
b) I think that anything done which is patently unconstitutional (such as ex post facto stuff) now illicts 'Lets wait for the courts to decide'. If the courts slap this stuff down hard, and the government ignores it, then we have to worry. That has not happened yet. Look what happened to the 2nd amendment, it got slapped around quite a bit, but the court reaffirmed it as an individual right 8 to 1. (The 5-4 ruling is on the particulars of DCs laws)
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We had outrage once, but that was before they started dispensing the soma back in the '60s.
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As has been said, the outrage is there.
However, I do not think there are too many folks who really want to push the reset button, and short of that there is just not that much one can do with outrage except discuss it amongst ourselves (for just too many folks just do not care).
Seems to me that folks are either wringing their hands at the plummeting performance of the stock market and their 200.5K plans, which seem headed to becoming 100.25K plans, if that much, or trying to get a good spot at the trough for all the free stuff that is supposed to start flowing from the great government spigot.
Yelling at the folks in office does not seem to help one whit, as they either do not care if what they are doing is legal and/or constitutional, or are just going with some sort of herd movement that may or may not be directed, and if directed may or may not be from the legislative or executive branch.
I would say we are in a time of bread and circuses, except that there are no real circus acts outside of what the legislative and executive branches are doing in their dayto-day operations. Not very many folks have the wry sense of humor needed to be entertained by those behaviors. And unfortunately not enough seem to know enough about how the government is 'supposed' to work to realize how close we are to the need for putting barrels of tar and bags of feathers on most public street corners.
Instead of preaching to the choir, I have taken to going out amongst the hoi poloi and striking up conversations with them about the condition of the country. I ask for ideas on what can be done since the elected officials do not seem to respond to communications from the voters. So far the consensus seems to be muttering a few choice phrases, including "Well, I tried," and then rolling over and taking it.
If I find out where the tipping point is, I'll let you know.
Till then, look out for the short, fat, bearded guy with an attitude who might come up to you and ask "Well, what are we gonna do about this mess?"
stay safe.
skidmark
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There is no point to it.
Do you really believe that?
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We had outrage once, but that was before they started dispensing the soma back in the '60s
Better a gramme than a damn.
At least that's what a lot of Republicans are saying...goodness knows they're far from perfect but short of a Pauline Revolution they're the only chance we've got.
Instead of preaching to the choir, I have taken to going out amongst the hoi poloi and striking up conversations with them about the condition of the country. I ask for ideas on what can be done since the elected officials do not seem to respond to communications from the voters. So far the consensus seems to be muttering a few choice phrases, including "Well, I tried," and then rolling over and taking it.
If I find out where the tipping point is, I'll let you know.
Till then, look out for the short, fat, bearded guy with an attitude who might come up to you and ask "Well, what are we gonna do about this mess?"
Excellent. Unfortunately many like us are just buying guns and ammo as a security blanket. I can think of a thousand scenarios where everything completely goes to you-know-where in this country and nary a shot is fired.
Use the First so you don't have to use the Second.
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Do you really believe that?
Indeed. I believe that the whine is heard by some, but they don't listen, they ignore. If you whine for same thing they want, they say "Look! I have done what you asked of me!". As if, some how, they should be worshipped for doing the job they are paid to do. On the other hand, if you whine for something that they don't want, they say, "Look! I am doing this for your own good."
Perfect example was the first round of bailouts way back when. Something like 90% of Americans were against it, yet, they did it anyway. It turned into the exact mess an overwhelming majority of Americans thought it would. But hey, 'they are doing it for our own good'.
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Unfortunately many like us are just buying guns and ammo as a security blanket.
Huge +1.
$7 a month on stamps and postcards for your elected weenies to hear from you weekly will do much more.
$20 a month for gas to attend a city council meeting, county board of supervisors meeting, or meet with a state rep during some event will do even more.
$1000 for your gunsafe to swell a bit more when you've already got a pistol and longgun for every shooter in your household isn't going to do much.
This bus isn't moving until someone gets out and pushes. Right now it's on ice and just spinning its tires.
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Apology accepted.
Shock, outrage?
Feh.
We've finally gotten things to simmer down considerably in this sub-forum.
That took some doing on the part of the staff, and I'd like to think we can stay on an even keel here before this becomes prevalent again:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmauser98.com%2Favatar_2961.gif&hash=5b6d085bd1f4aa5f7b71332f5c4a4c4e91391619)
Folks here are dealing with the big problem in their own way, with or without a piddly-assed internet forum, trust me.
Last I heard, over 50% of voting Americans chose the current administration.
The chickens have begun coming home to roost, and we'll see how enamored they are of their choice...
In the meantime, let's not stir the pot too vigorously, mmm'kay?
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Folks here are dealing with the big problem in their own way, with or without a piddly-assed internet forum, trust me.
Last I heard, over 50% of voting Americans chose the current administration.
The chickens have begun coming home to roost, and we'll see how enamored they are of their choice...
In the meantime, let's not stir the pot too vigorously, mmm'kay?
As I like to say it, BARELY over 50% of Americans voted for the current administration.
It's been over 14 years since they've given full power to liberals and almost 30 years since they've dealt with the full repercussions of liberal policies.
Perhaps it was time for a wake up call.
I'm feeling optimistic today.
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As I like to say it, BARELY over 50% of Americans voted for the current administration.
It's been over 14 years since they've given full power to liberals and almost 30 years since they've dealt with the full repercussions of liberal policies. they still haven't dealt with the full repurcussions of liberal policies.
Perhaps it was time for a wake up call.
I'm feeling optimistic today.
Fixed it for ya.
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You can say "barely over 50%" all you want, Makattack, but there's no refuting that it happened, and there's no big red History Eraser button you, I, or anybody else can mash.
Which is one reason why I've taken a personal stand against "Liberals ate my Grandmother" discussions here at APS.
Channel that shock and outrage into electing different congresscritters in 2010, and a different president in 2012.
Join the NRA. Run for city council or higher. Write letters to elected officials. Pay lobbyists.
Flailing about on an internet politics subforum screaming OMG, ONOZ, WTF?
That's kinda like winning the Special Olympics - you may feel good afterwards, but you're still retarded.
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You can say "barely over 50%" all you want, Makattack, but there's no refuting that it happened, and there's no big red History Eraser button you, I, or anybody else can mash.
Which is one reason why I've taken a personal stand against "Liberals ate my Grandmother" discussions here at APS.
Channel that shock and outrage into electing different congresscritters in 2010, and a different president in 2012.
Join the NRA. Run for city council or higher. Write letters to elected officials. Pay lobbyists.
Flailing about on an internet politics subforum screaming OMG, ONOZ, WTF?
That's kinda like winning the Special Olympics - you may feel good afterwards, but you're still retarded.
It's not refuting that it happened.
It's being optimistic that since only barely over 50% voted for him, only a small percentage of people need to open their eyes.
I'm frightened by what can happen in two years, but I think they're already over-reaching.
As I've said before, the US has survived worse and we will survive this. We've even moved towards fixing some of the problems: my generation knows Social Security won't be there for us.
Hopefully that means we will eventually be able to fix even that sacred cow.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmauser98.com%2Favatar_2961.gif&hash=5b6d085bd1f4aa5f7b71332f5c4a4c4e91391619)
I like this....maybe the GOP can use it as their new symbol/political slogan.... =D
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Apology accepted.
Shock, outrage?
Feh.
We've finally gotten things to simmer down considerably in this sub-forum.
Folks here are dealing with the big problem in their own way, with or without a piddly-assed internet forum, trust me.
Last I heard, over 50% of voting Americans chose the current administration.
The chickens have begun coming home to roost, and we'll see how enamored they are of their choice...
In the meantime, let's not stir the pot too vigorously, mmm'kay?
I'm 21 years old, trying to find a job in this sucky economy for when I graduate in May, and I'm watching my future prosperity being ruined by a bunch of boobs in Washington. Some of you guys have already made your pile. More power to you. I'm trying to start a career in this mess and I directly trace my difficulties to stupidity, power games, and bad ideology, both in the creation and in the treatment of this disaster. On both sides, of course.
Not to worry, I'm doing my part. I voted against Lindsey Graham, for DeMint, and I'll be voting for a suitable replacement for Sanford (pbuh) when the time comes.
I will definitely start getting involved in local politics. I'm also going to start making a habit of both positive and negative reinforcement with Lindsey and DeMint when they vote.
Stay angry, and keep voting, I say. None of this soma business.
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No need for outrage when there is widespread smoldering anger. Believe me, the silent majority (to borrow a phrase) is awake and thinking about what will do when it gets out of bed.
Patience.
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That's a nice theory Waitone; we'll see how true it is. The ole "silent majority" sure as hell hasn't been voting for non-socialist candidates for a few years now, have they?
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You can say "barely over 50%" all you want, Makattack, but there's no refuting that it happened, and there's no big red History Eraser button you, I, or anybody else can mash.
No, I have it, but I think it's in my closet somewhere.
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As has been said, the outrage is there.
However, I do not think there are too many folks who really want to push the reset button, and short of that there is just not that much one can do with outrage except discuss it amongst ourselves (for just too many folks just do not care). snip
It sounds a little like there's no answer but you've given the answer in the same sentence... it's OUR job to make the people "care".
Till then, look out for the short, fat, bearded guy with an attitude who might come up to you and ask "Well, what are we gonna do about this mess?"
stay safe.
skidmark
Good plan and here's one good answer:
First, in the short term, get out your check book. Order a list of pro gun orgs that you haven't joined yet in rank of effectiveness (note, I'm not saying "that are effective" and send the top [insert number you can afford] a one year membership check, ask to not get junk mail and then don't waste your energy on ranting if they do. Repeat this process until list has no members.
Second look into one of "your" rkba organizations local activism resources like http://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/GetInvolvedLocally/ because sending the check is only the first step. Go out and make your name known as someone who will do the scut work of political action. Most of us need exercise, walking a precinct is important rest for your couch cushions. The TV will not miss you.
Third, work your way into the leadership of pro gun organizations by making a positive reputation for yourself as a -worker-. NRA makes this easy with three seperate branches all of whom actively seek volunteers all of the time:
http://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/GetInvolvedLocally/ - ILA
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp - Education
http://www.friendsofnra.org/ - Foundation
but I'm sure jpfo, saf, ccrkba, goa... all of them have opportunities. These are all -tools- that we can engage to influence opinion before the 2010 election. And that opinion needs to get influenced BEFORE that election.
Then of course you should already be on a first name basis with the lead staffer in all of -your- state and federal representatives offices.And I've found it helpful to keep a day job and maintain some relations with my family ... : )
So for anybody out there (not thinking of vaskidmark) thinking we're doomed and there's nothing we can do there's a start. If you get through all that please email me back on how you managed your time so well and any additional ideas you have for making the 2010 election go pro freedom.
- Boyd ILA; wa-08 Election Volunteer Coordinator, Foundation; Ekcfonra volunteer, NRA education; training counselor active at 3 ranges, director and webmaster at http://washingtonarmscollectors.org
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am.
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IN addition to my usual efforts, I am attending the 15APR Tea Party at Dallas City Hall and will help document it for Pajamas Media.
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IN addition to my usual efforts, I am attending the 15APR Tea Party at Dallas City Hall and will help document it for Pajamas Media.
I was going to go, but found out I have to work, more hours than normal, because everyone else is going.
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Wife and I are planning to be there. Well, not in Dallas, but up here.
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In my view, Gewehr is both right and wrong.
Right, because I don't think Obama is going to bring the End of Days any more than the other guy would have.
Wrong, because I do think that the Western World is in a very bad state in moral terms. I find the welfare state immoral and oppressive. It's just more subtly oppressive than the outright totalitarian states of the 1930's, but it's getting there, slowly but surely.
I do not think the situation can be fixed in 2010 or 2012 - but you can bring in Republicans to slow, or even slightly reverse the trend. The more important change does not occur during elections but between elections. The work of groups like NRA, JPFO, CCRKBA and, yes, GOA contributes to that sort of change.
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In my view, Gewehr is both right and wrong.
Right, because I don't think Obama is going to bring the End of Days any more than the other guy would have.
Wrong, because I do think that the Western World is in a very bad state in moral terms. I find the welfare state immoral and oppressive. It's just more subtly oppressive than the outright totalitarian states of the 1930's, but it's getting there, slowly but surely.
I do not think the situation can be fixed in 2010 or 2012 - but you can bring in Republicans to slow, or even slightly reverse the trend. The more important change does not occur during elections but between elections. The work of groups like NRA, JPFO, CCRKBA and, yes, GOA contributes to that sort of change.
I agree... but I also question the good of guns when your tax rate is pushing 60% when all is said and done, your leaders are talking about tax hikes again, and no one has the stomach to do anything about it.
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That is true, but I was bringing these groups up as an example, because I knew that support for the RKBA is shared among all members of this forum. The Heritage Foundation, Bureaucrash, the Campaign For Liberty, Cato Institute, and some other groups exist that you could join or donate to, and you should choose the one that suits you best.