Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Jamisjockey on April 14, 2009, 04:52:48 PM
-
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer
They weren't goths or loners.
The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied — in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."
Their rampage put schools on alert for "enemies lists" made by troubled students, but the enemies on their list had graduated from Columbine a year earlier. Contrary to early reports, Harris and Klebold weren't on antidepressant medication and didn't target jocks, blacks or Christians, police now say, citing the killers' journals and witness accounts. That story about a student being shot in the head after she said she believed in God? Never happened, the FBI says now.
So basically, they were just nuts.
-
That story about a student being shot in the head after she said she believed in God? Never happened, the FBI says now.
A bit of modern evangelical hagiography bites the dust.
-
what they fail to address is that the parents of one of them was extremely anti gun, telling the young killer
"guns are only made for killing people" taught him well I guess.
-
Does this matter? Really, does it matter?
-
Does this matter? Really, does it matter?
This^^
Also, are we just taking whatever USA Today spews out as gospel now? I get a "You see, even just plain ole folks can go nuts and start a-killing with those eeeevvvvviiiilllllll black rifles! Ban em all now!" kinda vibe from this.
-
I get a "You see, even just plain ole folks can go nuts and start a-killing with those eeeevvvvviiiilllllll black rifles! Ban em all now!" kinda vibe from this.
Did you read the article? It clearly stated Harris was a predatory psychopath, not "plain ole folk."
-
What struck me was that the latest indications are that no matter what, they wanted to kill alot of people. Alot of the no tolerance anti-bullying rhetoric from schools came from this incident.
-
This article just confirms for me what I already know.
I was 15 in High School when this happened. I wore black clothes, listened to heavy metal, played video games, and thought black trench coats just looked awesome. I wasn't one of the cool kids and I was fine with that because I had my own group of friends. Columbine happened and I spent the rest of High School getting funny looks and hearing jokes behind my back that I might shoot up the school.
So yeah, this article is just a big "No, really?!"
:rolleyes:
-
Did you read the article? It clearly stated Harris was a predatory psychopath, not "plain ole folk."
Just the quoted parts; went back and read it now. It's not bad in the way I thought it'd be, but still slanted anti.
-
This article just confirms for me what I already know.
I was 15 in High School when this happened. I wore black clothes, listened to heavy metal, played video games, and thought black trench coats just looked awesome. I wasn't one of the cool kids and I was fine with that because I had my own group of friends. Columbine happened and I spent the rest of High School getting funny looks and hearing jokes behind my back that I might shoot up the school.
So yeah, this article is just a big "No, really?!"
:rolleyes:
Hate to admit it, but same situation here. Had zero interest in guns at the time, though... thought Bud K knives (ack) were awesome, but never bought any.
Thought it was hilarious when we sat around one day trying to figure out what we'd do if that happened at our school. The general consensus was (we were nerds, after all) "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few/one" and figured that we'd stop the shooters by any means necessary. This actually ended up being where I got my first taste in unconventional melee tactics and weapons. Explaining to my parents exactly how I got hit in the face with a math book, twice, was tricky.
-
Does this matter? Really, does it matter?
Yes, this matters. A lot of awful school policies and politics were build up in response to the falsehoods surrounding this story.
Want an example? Before the shooting we had a pistol marksmanship team at my high school. After the shooting we didn't.
Want another example? Three weeks after the shooting I was caught with an allen wrench in my pocket. I don't remember why I had it, probably needed it for shop class or something. It turns out that allen wrenches of some particular size can be used to lock the doors that divide the various wings of the school. The numbnuts teacher who saw that I had the thing thought I was going to use it to lock students inside the building so that they wouldn't be able to escape once I started shooting the place up. She wanted to have me expelled. Fortunately sanity prevailed.
-
Explaining to my parents exactly how I got hit in the face with a math book, twice, was tricky.
It sounds like you took sum punishment.
-
It sounds like you took sum punishment.
As if it made any difference.
-
As if it made any difference.
Come now, let's not divide over this.
-
Adding insult to injury only multiplies the quotient of pain.
-
He was firmly rooted in the square clique.
Sounds like they thought they were integrating their knowledge of HTH responses, but the approach was actually derivative of a dorm-room bull session.
-
droogs were a factor?
-
It sounds like you took sum punishment.
Something about this doesn't really ad up.
-
L say! =D
Farce-on-force tactics combined with high-schoolers trying to act "macho" led to some really funny things. =)
Yes, this matters. A lot of awful school policies and politics were build up in response to the falsehoods surrounding this story.
Seconded. For me, it was my first experience for sensationalism to influence popular opinion, which in turn persuaded parents to demand changes, and eventually put me in a group despised and feared for no reason at all. My own parents (whom I have always, although on occasion begrudgingly, held in high regard) started treating me like a time bomb without a digital display. Years later, I still think there's some distrust there. =(
-
Explaining to my parents exactly how I got hit in the face with a math book, twice, was tricky.
What answer did you formulate?....
-
droogs were a factor?
It's difficult to find a school shooting where one or more of the perps were not on drugs, almost invariably prescription meds. IIRC, in Columbine, at least one of the shooters was on Luvox.
Side effects?
Families and caregivers of children and adolescents who are taking Luvox should be especially watchful of the warning signs associated with suicide listed below.
The warning signs include:
* Thoughts or talk of death or suicide
* Thoughts or talk of self-harm or harm to others
* Any recent attempts of self-harm
* Mood changes such as an increase in aggressive or unusual behaviour, irritability, agitation or worsening of depressive symptom.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/BHCV2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/smcluvox/$File/smcluvox.pdf
Another triumph for the pill-pushing quacks of modern psychiatry.
-
It sounds like you took sum punishment.
He forgot to "divide and conquer".
jb
-
Another triumph for the pill-pushing quacks of modern psychiatry.
Scientology much?
I'm on Luvox. I have no thoughts of self-harm, or harming others. Granted, effects are different for different people, but I find it awfully hard to swallow that a drug turned a happy-go-lucky harmless teen into a predatory psychopath. Blaming the meds doesn't make much more sense than blaming the guns. Did the meds somehow make them more confident or some other indirect contributory effect? Possibly. But SSRI medications do not a psychopath make.
The "black box" symptoms you listed are required on *all* anti-depressants as far as I know. That said, I don't think any causation has been even remotely proven, only correlation, which, all things considered is pretty worthless in this case.
I'll agree medications are over-prescribed and pushed a little too eagerly by many doctors. But that doesn't mean they're worthless, inherently harmful, or snake oil. They have their place and their purpose.
-
It's difficult to find a school shooting where one or more of the perps were not on drugs, almost invariably prescription meds. IIRC, in Columbine, at least one of the shooters was on Luvox.
Side effects?
Families and caregivers of children and adolescents who are taking Luvox should be especially watchful of the warning signs associated with suicide listed below.
The warning signs include:
* Thoughts or talk of death or suicide
* Thoughts or talk of self-harm or harm to others
* Any recent attempts of self-harm
* Mood changes such as an increase in aggressive or unusual behaviour, irritability, agitation or worsening of depressive symptom.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/BHCV2/bhcmed.nsf/pages/smcluvox/$File/smcluvox.pdf
Another triumph for the pill-pushing quacks of modern psychiatry.
[/quote]
Wait, wait, wait.
Those side effects are symptoms of depression.
So, you're depressed enough to consider suicide, and to be prescribed medication X. Later, you try to kill yourself.
Maybe the true side effect is the medication not working on everyone that takes it.
-
Maybe the true side effect is the medication not working on everyone that takes it.
*DingDingDingDingDing!*
Correlation does not imply causation.
-
"The warning signs include:
* Thoughts or talk of death or suicide
* Thoughts or talk of self-harm or harm to others
* Any recent attempts of self-harm
* Mood changes such as an increase in aggressive or unusual behaviour, irritability, agitation or worsening of depressive symptom."
Funny...
There are any number of sources that give those exact same symptoms as being the danger signs of UNTREATED depression.
MY GOD! HE'S GOT UNTREATED DEPRESSION, HE MIGHT KILL US ALL!!
sounds a lot like
MY GOD! HE'S BEING TREATED FOR DEPRESSION! HE MIGHT KILL US ALL!
doesn't it?
-
What answer did you formulate?....
4kg human head traveling at 10cm/sec in a path intersecting a 1kg locker door at rest, with unknown variables including "bad day" factored in. I should've been hit with a Physics book. :rolleyes:
-
MY GOD! HE'S GOT UNTREATED DEPRESSION, HE MIGHT KILL US ALL!!
sounds a lot like
MY GOD! HE'S BEING TREATED FOR DEPRESSION! HE MIGHT KILL US ALL!
doesn't it?
Paradoxical.
-
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm?se=yahoorefer
Contrary to early reports, Harris and Klebold weren't on antidepressant medication and didn't target jocks, blacks or Christians, police now say, citing the killers' journals and witness accounts.[/i]
That's funny. My school had an assembly called Rachel's Challenge (after Rachel Scott). We saw a video with the lecture, part of which contained an interview with an eyewitness. The guy said they taunted one of his black friends before shooting him. And who wouldn't target jocks?
The whole point of Rachel's Challenge was to teach students to use kindness to make others feel better and hopefully avert tragedies (including suicide). Being friendly might work to stop the occaisional angry outcast type, but it will not work on the real maniacs.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_KUkrukx5M
I give people candy and cupcakes all the time... just to be safe.
-
Hate to admit it, but same situation here. Had zero interest in guns at the time, though... thought Bud K knives (ack) were awesome, but never bought any.
Thought it was hilarious when we sat around one day trying to figure out what we'd do if that happened at our school. The general consensus was (we were nerds, after all) "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few/one" and figured that we'd stop the shooters by any means necessary. This actually ended up being where I got my first taste in unconventional melee tactics and weapons. Explaining to my parents exactly how I got hit in the face with a math book, twice, was tricky.
"I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons & Dragons without learning a little something about courage Agent Scully."
(X-Files episode "Jose Chung's From Out of Space")
-
Just spat cookie crumbs onto my keyboard. =D :laugh:
-
>I give people candy and cupcakes all the time... just to be safe.<
Where are mine, Sunshine? You're a lil' behind there... :P
-
*DingDingDingDingDing!*
Correlation does not imply causation.
Actually it can, it doesn't prove it though.
-
The whole point of Rachel's Challenge was to teach students to use kindness to make others feel better and hopefully avert tragedies (including suicide). Being friendly might work to stop the occaisional angry outcast type, but it will not work on the real maniacs.
IMO, "being nice" can backfire. I certainly was never angry, or picked on during those years. However, I can certainly relate to depression, feeling invisible, and outcast.
The bright shiny happy popular people who were nice and friendly to you in passing in the hall, or next to you in class were worse than being ignored, when after a brief surge of hope, you realized it didn't really mean anything other than that you're a generic sounding board for their need to be nice.
After that realization, the bright bubbly, camp-counselor type of pretty girl who'd chat you up was like nails on a blackboard, because she was no more a friend or a potential love interest than another girl who ignored you completely. It's like being a homeless third-world kid given a five minute tour of an American mansion decorated for Christmas, then dumped back into your slum.
-
droogs were a factor?
According to the article, no. They weren't on anti-depressants.
Does this matter? Really, does it matter?
It matters in the sense that all the people that were trying to blame guns, video games, medication, etc. were wrong, as were the knee-jerk officials that pushed through all sorts of legislation.