Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 10:35:38 AM
Blackburn & Sindawe had salient points about the cheetahs. Please continue that discussion here:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1905
I also believe that an important dialogue was begun among...(wording?) people of faith in the midst of that thread.
This is an attempt to continue that conversation without continuing to hijack Blackburn's thread.
Fig
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 10:45:49 AM
Quote from: sm
As some know, I was raised in an Independent Baptist setting.
I apprenticed starting about age 12 under Orthodox Jews.
They don't teach kids in a Baptist Sunday school to NOT take a ham sandwich to Orthodox owned places of work.
What is interesting, is the old Preacher used to meet with Jewish, Catholics, and other faiths over coffee and pie. Discuss their respective congregations and how they were dealing with, coping with and what-all with the goings in in the Real World. JFK being asssinated, Cuban Missles, or even more local events - not the Faiths being hashed about - the respective peoples and how to deal with all of this. Some great ideas shared and used.
I was learning a whole lot more than what I was there for apprenticship. We had reformed Jews and honestly, I forget all the names and differences,we did business with,I'm a dumb Gentile. I was accepted as being one and this was not meant as being a bad thing.
We had the Catholics come in too, I was facinated as to the quality of converstation and respect watching, listening, learning these two "different" sects were to me.
We had other Protestant groups, "Hey Steve, you speak Baptist, what is this Methodist trying to tell us he wants...laughter and no hard feelings.
"Hey Steve, you ever met a Mormon?" I had not to my knowledge ever met one, Sunday School never explained that either, didn't know what to expect, so I come out the shop and there is good looking lady with her husband. Normal folks. Beginning to figure out this "dumb Gentile" had a lot of truth to its meaning.
I was totally awed, My Orthodox boss and his wife were so knowledgeable about the Mormons and history, a Father comes in with a Nun, and they joined in the conversation. I'm observing, hearing these...these "other faiths" interact and no negative.
Boss " we can always be farmers again"
Mormons " yes , we know those skills as well..."
Catholic "we have never been afraid to get our hands dirty either..."
That is when I made my own decisons about belief systems. I respected the teachings, the traditions and appreciations. I also noticed it came from within each person. It did not come the shape, size, name on the building they met, or days of week they met.
This caused hands to face, jaws to drop and me getting fussed at by my own kind - except the old Man Preacher. He was sharp, He was smart. He passed away many many years ago.
Interesting how with my own kind, and those with same name, they attend a bulding once a week. One is even a deacon in his church - oh they put up a good front, they give great lip service when around their own kind ...
The Orthodox Jews and later Reformed Jews as employers walked the walk. So did the Catholics, Mormons and other Protestant groups such as Episcopalions, Methodists ...
I recall all of out shooting, oh yes we did this. We all carried back then and kept firearms handy, even though back then there was "no official paper"...
"We may all have a different belief system name, we all have a belief system. We all believe in personal responsiblity, and not being meddled with".
There I am shooting with all these belief systems, both genders, and ribbing and kidding. "You try shooting with a Penguin suit on...let me see how well you do" One of the nuns jokingly spoke. Hasiddic (sp?) quipped ' "try it with a beard in this heat and not having your hat fall off...".
Somebody take the dumb Gentile to lunch and feed him a ham sandwich will you? - My boss said laughing. He and the Jew went one way, I ate with the Catholics ,Mormons, and such.
It had to be a Friday, Cause the Catholics ate fish, I got into the BBQ pork.
There is time and place to defend, times one must meddle in times of defense, others, best not to meddle. Mentors & Elders shared many examples of in history folks meddled - all in the name of a Belief System.
Steve
I apprenticed starting about age 12 under Orthodox Jews.
They don't teach kids in a Baptist Sunday school to NOT take a ham sandwich to Orthodox owned places of work.
What is interesting, is the old Preacher used to meet with Jewish, Catholics, and other faiths over coffee and pie. Discuss their respective congregations and how they were dealing with, coping with and what-all with the goings in in the Real World. JFK being asssinated, Cuban Missles, or even more local events - not the Faiths being hashed about - the respective peoples and how to deal with all of this. Some great ideas shared and used.
I was learning a whole lot more than what I was there for apprenticship. We had reformed Jews and honestly, I forget all the names and differences,we did business with,I'm a dumb Gentile. I was accepted as being one and this was not meant as being a bad thing.
We had the Catholics come in too, I was facinated as to the quality of converstation and respect watching, listening, learning these two "different" sects were to me.
We had other Protestant groups, "Hey Steve, you speak Baptist, what is this Methodist trying to tell us he wants...laughter and no hard feelings.
"Hey Steve, you ever met a Mormon?" I had not to my knowledge ever met one, Sunday School never explained that either, didn't know what to expect, so I come out the shop and there is good looking lady with her husband. Normal folks. Beginning to figure out this "dumb Gentile" had a lot of truth to its meaning.
I was totally awed, My Orthodox boss and his wife were so knowledgeable about the Mormons and history, a Father comes in with a Nun, and they joined in the conversation. I'm observing, hearing these...these "other faiths" interact and no negative.
Boss " we can always be farmers again"
Mormons " yes , we know those skills as well..."
Catholic "we have never been afraid to get our hands dirty either..."
That is when I made my own decisons about belief systems. I respected the teachings, the traditions and appreciations. I also noticed it came from within each person. It did not come the shape, size, name on the building they met, or days of week they met.
This caused hands to face, jaws to drop and me getting fussed at by my own kind - except the old Man Preacher. He was sharp, He was smart. He passed away many many years ago.
Interesting how with my own kind, and those with same name, they attend a bulding once a week. One is even a deacon in his church - oh they put up a good front, they give great lip service when around their own kind ...
The Orthodox Jews and later Reformed Jews as employers walked the walk. So did the Catholics, Mormons and other Protestant groups such as Episcopalions, Methodists ...
I recall all of out shooting, oh yes we did this. We all carried back then and kept firearms handy, even though back then there was "no official paper"...
"We may all have a different belief system name, we all have a belief system. We all believe in personal responsiblity, and not being meddled with".
There I am shooting with all these belief systems, both genders, and ribbing and kidding. "You try shooting with a Penguin suit on...let me see how well you do" One of the nuns jokingly spoke. Hasiddic (sp?) quipped ' "try it with a beard in this heat and not having your hat fall off...".
Somebody take the dumb Gentile to lunch and feed him a ham sandwich will you? - My boss said laughing. He and the Jew went one way, I ate with the Catholics ,Mormons, and such.
It had to be a Friday, Cause the Catholics ate fish, I got into the BBQ pork.
There is time and place to defend, times one must meddle in times of defense, others, best not to meddle. Mentors & Elders shared many examples of in history folks meddled - all in the name of a Belief System.
Steve
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: matis
Quote from: Felonious Fig
No feathers ruffled here. I think the cooperation we forge is mutually beneficial, without having to insist that Jews become Christians or vice versa.
Fig, You got what I'm trying to say.I know that you are (like your apt metaphor -- the Golden Retriever) "good hearted". That's why I allow myself to write without pulling punches.
Quote
This is getting long, so I'll just say thanks for your friendship and generosity.
You're welcome. But it seems like I should be offering exactly the same thanks to you.You allow me to get it off my chest without taking personal offense. Then you say you'll remember it when with other Jews. The generousity is yours.
You and Stand-watie and Grampster (I hope I'm not forgetting anybody) convey a genuine wish for friendship and, if I may say it this way, a sweetness.
It makes me feel safe to say what I think is necessary so we can truly understand each other, instead of just being superficially nice to each other.
There exists an organization run by a Rabbi Lapin, called Toward Tradition. He too promotes an alliance of conservative, believing Jews and Christians for the purpose of fighting the increasing degeneracy we are sinking into.
I've read some of his stuff and heard him on the radio and I like what I heard. It's late now, but tomorrow I'll google him and make contact.
Simply posting the way we do moves us in the right direction.
But maybe it's time to do a bit more.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Be well,
matis
Post by: Sindawe on November 27, 2005, 11:11:04 AM
Quote
That is when I made my own decisons about belief systems. I respected the teachings, the traditions and appreciations. I also noticed it came from within each person. It did not come the shape, size, name on the building they met, or days of week they met.
This caused hands to face, jaws to drop and me getting fussed at by my own kind - except the old Man Preacher. He was sharp, He was smart. He passed away many many years ago.
Interesting how with my own kind, and those with same name, they attend a bulding once a week. One is even a deacon in his church - oh they put up a good front, they give great lip service when around their own kind ...
Fair weather [insert faith of choice here] far exceed in number those who truely take the teachings of their faiths to heart and live by its values each and every day.
This caused hands to face, jaws to drop and me getting fussed at by my own kind - except the old Man Preacher. He was sharp, He was smart. He passed away many many years ago.
Interesting how with my own kind, and those with same name, they attend a bulding once a week. One is even a deacon in his church - oh they put up a good front, they give great lip service when around their own kind ...
Post by: grampster on November 27, 2005, 12:38:08 PM
I have come to avoid the merchant and peddler who uses his "religion" to attract customers. Many is the time I have seen people displayed on the front page of the local paper with an invisible "I'm a moron" sign hanging around their neck because they gave their life savings to the *insert relegion* snake oil salesman.
I have also met folks who have no profession of faith in the customary sense. Some are kind and honest as well. In my 62 years (maybe 50 of them as a quasi sentient being) it seems to me that bad people exist no matter what they profess. Evil, imho, does walk the earth. I think that is the one firm reason that I have a problem with Secularists. (I don't identify most atheists or agnostics in this group)
Secularists seem to believe that Man is inherantly good, and that if we all just sit down over tea and discuss our differences, everything will be peaceful and orderly. Secularists don't believe in evil. My time on this earth has taught me otherwise. In fact, if you think about it for a moment, really think about it, children never have to be taught how to be bad. Conversely they have to be taught to be good, to be civilized. If left to their own devices, nothing good will come of it. I think we see a good bit of this in our times because of the relaxed standards of discipline and the blurring of the difference between good and evil.
The one thing that I have never been able to totally rectify in my mind is the caustic dynamic that goes on between sects of the same faith. We see it in Christian, Jew, Muslim and Hindu etc. I have never really understood that. I think, perhaps the Christian bible does put a perspective on it when (in this case, Christ's church) is described as like a body with Jesus as it's head. When you think about the body, there are a myriad of activities that are going on simultaneously, even, seemingly at odds with each other. Yet everything that goes on has a purpose that is unified. It is called Life. Jesus (in Christianity) is its head (brain), the director of the concert. Perhaps we ought think more about what unites us and causes us to be able to get up and move around and be able to play rhapsodies, rather than arguing over whether the corpuscle is more important than the nose hair.
That acceptance of the reality that we are more alike than diverse ought to be a unifying experience, especially with those of us who call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Father.
I think I'll go have a root beer float now.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 04:15:54 PM
We all know what happens when one assumes things.
Quote from: matis
You and Stand-watie and Grampster (I hope I'm not forgetting anybody) convey a genuine wish for friendship and, if I may say it this way, a sweetness.
that means alot to me. My version of the OT says in Proverbs 27 An open rebuke is better than hidden love, and wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy.Quote from: grampster
Perhaps we ought think more about what unites us and causes us to be able to get up and move around and be able to play rhapsodies, rather than arguing over whether the corpuscle is more important than the nose hair.
That acceptance of the reality that we are more alike than diverse ought to be a unifying experience, especially with those of us who call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Father.
Well said, grampster. IMHO, we share this common ground: love of God, Family, Country. And RKBA.That acceptance of the reality that we are more alike than diverse ought to be a unifying experience, especially with those of us who call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Father.
Honest question #1: Do orthodox Jews consider Christians to be followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
(I think we are, but I think MANY if not most U.S. Christians "worship Jesus" and consider the Father and the Spirit to be some nebulous afterthought. I believe that to be patently wrong. Don't want to get into BIG theological stew, but the guy I call G-d, who I bow and worship, is the dad. I guess I struggle with the "triune G-d" thing.
Honest question #2: Think about Utah. Conservative stronghold. You know where I'm going with this. If we can extend a hand of friendship among Jews and Christians, I would like to see Mormons a part of this "cooperative alliance" as well.
Conservative, good family values, and love God, Family and Country. Don't wanna go to the Tabernacle with 'em, but in the interest of advancing common causes, another good (potential) ally.
What do you guys think?
Post by: Marnoot on November 27, 2005, 04:43:41 PM
Quote from: "felonius fig"
Honest question #2: Think about Utah. Conservative stronghold. You know where I'm going with this. If we can extend a hand of friendship among Jews and Christians, I would like to see Mormons a part of this "cooperative alliance" as well.
Conservative, good family values, and love God, Family and Country. Don't wanna go to the Tabernacle with 'em, but in the interest of advancing common causes, another good (potential) ally.
As a Mormon, I've often wondered why many in our different faiths can't put aside their doctrinal differences to work on common causes, or even just common friendship. Granted there are many significant differences in belief between Jews and Christians, Evangelical/Protestant Christianity and Mormonism, etc., etc. But as faiths we have so much in common that we could work towards. It always seems a shame when things degrade into inter-faith quibbling when understanding, openness, cooperation, and friendship could exist instead.
Conservative, good family values, and love God, Family and Country. Don't wanna go to the Tabernacle with 'em, but in the interest of advancing common causes, another good (potential) ally.
Post by: grampster on November 27, 2005, 04:55:47 PM
This thought of mine in this regard is why I believe Diversity should gain back its original definition. It means we're different, but as diverse people we can unite and stand together for right and good. We should accept our diversity and rather celebrate our unity.
Regarding the Christian concept of the Triune God. I don't find any contradiction in this concept at all. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One. The Oneness of God is not subverted by the Trinity. Just as I am one entity, I am perceived and function in a certain way on the job, a provider. I am also a husband a helpmate. Also a father to children and grandchildren. (I am also in deer camp, but that is another story) Each a different function of the same man. In my limited way, in trying to define perhaps the undefinable, is how I look at it. God the Father, the Son (the Word Who became flesh and dwelt among us) and the Spirit Who whispers in our souls, Who gives us comfort and direction, "Who hovers over the waters". It is my belief that Jesus is in fact the embodiement of the Spirit of God; the working, hands on part of the Father. In Genesis 1, God speaks as We. He also spoke everything into existance; His Word caused creation. In John 1, John says that the Word was with God, the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus spoke of leaving His Spirit behind as a counselor. Again, in Genesis 1 the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Post by: Guest on November 27, 2005, 06:31:10 PM
I am 'stumped' for lack of a better word. I take a break from studies, and have been in a light, fun humorous, exchange about folks "Blaming Steve" for shotguns and fessin' up about purchases over on THR.
Now I come here, see a BIG quote of mine, and I gotta change gears.
First, No apologies needed Fig.
Truth is - it is complicated. I do NOT have the skills to express myself verbally or written as many do - I admit this.
MY Life Experiences shaped my belief system. My belief systems have undegone changes over the years, most likely , will again.
As most know in March of 1984 I took my last drink. I went to AA. In AA we use the term "Higher Power". That reference is we drunks obviously did not do a very good job on our own, so we need to seek a "Higher Power" for help. We have to get out of ourselves. Well that term gets a LOT of negative comments from Folks not in AA...trust me on this.
Time passes and as is suggested, I Sponsor a fella. "I'm not sure what I believe and don't believe in nothing really...so I have no concept of a "Higher Power". - Sam
Great, not only are we out of chocolate chip cookies, my first guy to Sponsor needing help is looking for guidance and MY sponsor, whom I would holler at...oh he is out of town.
My home group was HARD CORE, it was what I needed. We met in a building whatever Catholics call them BIG places, I'd call it a campus. It had a drawbridge looking entrance and "Monastary" comes to mind. I mean folks studied over there, nuns hung out over the other way, and I was treated with courtesy and respect. We had Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Athesists, Agnostics and you name it attend this home group. We were all a bunch of drunks, some us had more sobriety than others is all.
I'm doing my "James Dean Lean" , against one of the BIG columns...I gotta give this guy something to "believe in greater than himself". Us drunk left to our devices can really screw up...
He was shaking, part was from not having a drink in 24 hrs, part of this group being hard core, and part of what I had actually done and said in the meeting just ended.
Another Fellow said he was not sure he had a problem with alcohol. I piped up, and said "It is a self Dx disease". He asked how would he know. I got up handed him a Big Book and a Fifth of Whiskey...oh yeah, it got quiet like the old EF Hutton Commercial. "Take both of these home, drink the whiskey and read the book - stay with whichever gives you the most relief". I suggested he leave the meeting and get started - which he did.
"Steve - you are a cold hearted bastard". Some other newer fella said
"Yeah well I may be - I'm sober today and that is all I give a *expletive deleted*it about". - I replied
The truth is, someone very dear to me shared that very concept with me - the book, the whiskey and sticking to what gave them relief - and was sitting in that room. Then others spoke up and said "Nope, you ain't seen the gates of hell like some of us, nor felt the heat, smelled the brimstone...besides you are supposed to be listeneing - shut up and lets continue on"
Hardcore.
"Do you believe this Column I am leaning against is stronger than you"
Sam , is looking at this BIG heavy Column, bottom to top and the architecture it fits into above.
"Yes I do believe these columns in here...
I interupted, " I didn't mention others, I don't give a *expletive deleted*it about the other ones in here, this one , this one column...only".
"Yes". he said.
"Good, you believe that and anytime you feel crazy as a road tick - believe in this column - you got it?'
I penciled the date on the column, handed him a BIG BOOk, told him to read the first 3 chapter over and over, to call me each day, and to call me BEFORE he took a drink. Don't call me if he did, and I damn sure was not going to ID his body at the morgue. He was to keep his damn mouth shut at meetings , and was to attend at least one everyday, and if he didnt' feel like going to one - he had to make two.
3 weeks later, I get caught in traffic, I arrive late to this meeting. I hear a voice - one that is not to be speaking...
"Gonna get my ass chewed out for talking in a meeting ...but I had a really really bad day and didn't know how to handle matters. Steve was out and about, could not get ahold of him, I arrived here 2 hrs early and been sitting at the base my MY Column reading ... I was scared and alone...I prayed to that Column back and forth, until it passed. - Sponsoree said.
He continued , "I ...I never prayed before, so Steve gave me one for in the morning and one at night. In the morning I said "Help" At night I said "Thank You".
Most of this 'bad day' he had been saying "Help". Got to the meeting and said "Thank you" Sitting and leaning on that Column trying to read them 3 chapters over again...in that room all alone. Flagged a nun and - before he could ask, she unlocked the door. "I am down the hall...just holler if you need me or anyone..." she said.
Then he raised up as he had been talking to the floor, relating all this. There I was leaning agains that very Column, my spot ( favorite seat) was next to this Column.
"AW *expletive deleted*it, when did you get here? I ...I'm know I am not supposed to speak but...but..before you eat my ass out, I brought extra chocolate chip cookies and the last pot on the right has that Hazlenut blend you like".
Poor guy was emotionally drained. Sober, but drained.
"Get your ass up and give me a hug" he did. Then I made the guy chairing the meeting hand Sam, the fellow whom only new two prayers and believe a Column was stronger than he, chair the meeting.
'I don't know what to do?' Sam said.
'Yeah you do, it is inside of you, you done started off this meeting on the right path - trust your gut'.
"But we are supposed to be talking about Step 4 tonight".
"Screw the rules, rules got us in trouble at times, you do not know whom in this meeting needed to hear what you already shared and is hoping to hear more of the same".
---
I cannot have resentments, not being a drunk - no matter the years of sobriety I have. Of course it took a year to learn ( maybe it finally sunk in) that was okay to be pissed. Acceptance is the key, stupid me did not think I could get angry anymore...kinda pissed me off. Being mad is an emotion, I can do that.
I got 'mad' at some "organized religions" - I do not deny this. AA was a program of Attraction - not Promotion.
Well I had a customer, deacon of a church, a judge make national news with his behaviors....
Too many folks as customers literally having affairs during the week, and such family church going folks on Sunday. I practiced "confindentiality" with customers.
Now I am taking all this in...and I ain't liking it.
I have been lab / project partners with folks because nobody else would be one with a Mormon, I mean a good looking young lady, and folks stayed their distance. Same with Jews, Catholics, Greek Orthodox ...you name it.
So I turned more inward, and less what a "building" said. Only I would ask where I could get a copy of a Torah from a Jewish classmate. I wanted the scrolls and the whole bit. Yeah I knew it would not have Chapters and verses...
You will never guess whom piped up and said she had a source and would get me one...no, not the Catholic, she had works of Martin Luther she was studying for herself. The good looking Mormon girl..."what - you think we just hoard food , gas, ammo , make the boys ride bikes and us girls bake bread or something? Gee Steve, maybe you are dumb Gentile afterall?"
Sigh...
NO. I am not saying I am right. Not sure I understand what all goes on. Only thing I know - the quietest quite I have ever heard is when in the main OR someone died on the table and all machines are off. Pretty sure if one ever draws a breath - someday they won't.
The rest of this stuff, I have gone more inward. The folks in Buildings, well not everything has been a positive experience for me. I have more comfort alone or with a few folks sitting outside sharing similiar views and beliefs.
I know for sure, a Jewish lady whom spoke only Russian, did not seen to care one whit I was reading from an AA BIG BOOK ...best we figured she needed some kind of something from a belief system. Her family spoke English, I told them what I did, it was fine, she just needed to hear something sincere and soothing is all.
I was pissed the Chaplain on call would not even come down. I had already caught flak from leaving BIG BOOKs here and there...I figured recovering alcoholics have suregeries too. I did while employed there.
Now during a rotation at the Catholic Hosptial...I called the Chaplain with a Polish Jewish Paitent, he hurried right up called a Rabbi he knew, and I was impressed. So was the family. Out of town visiting, where the ambulance brought her...and family in a MVA.
I filed that tidbit away too.
Dollar says Preacherman would have done the same.
Steve
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 06:36:59 PM
Quote from: grampster
Regarding the Christian concept of the Triune God. I don't find any contradiction in this concept at all. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One. The Oneness of God is not subverted by the Trinity. Just as I am one entity, I am perceived and function in a certain way on the job, a provider. I am also a husband a helpmate. Also a father to children and grandchildren. (I am also in deer camp, but that is another story) Each a different function of the same man. In my limited way, in trying to define perhaps the undefinable, is how I look at it. God the Father, the Son (the Word Who became flesh and dwelt among us) and the Spirit Who whispers in our souls, Who gives us comfort and direction, "Who hovers over the waters". It is my belief that Jesus is in fact the embodiement of the Spirit of God; the working, hands on part of the Father. In Genesis 1, God speaks as We. He also spoke everything into existance; His Word caused creation. In John 1, John says that the Word was with God, the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus spoke of leaving His Spirit behind as a counselor. Again, in Genesis 1 the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
You make a good point about getting TOO ecumenical. I think that's why organizations like the World Council of Churches are such a joke; they've done just that, and tried to be inclusive to everyone and everything, with the end result being unsatisfying to all but the arrogant bureaucrats involved.I don't want to do what we've agreed not to do; that is, fall into theological debate. The limit in understanding is mine, not a limit to our Creator.
I think I saw alot of shallow, emotionally-charged conversions (what Leonard Ravenhill called 'cheap grace') back in the "Jesus Movement" of the 1970's. This left alot of Christians with a foundation not unlike the liberal, "blissninny" thing-- "It FEELS right, so it MUST be". Gotta study, to show oneself approved, a workman who will not be ashamed.
A HUGE hero of mine is Richard J. Foster, author of Celebration of Discipline. Considered by most to be a classic of Christian literature, it profoundly affected my life.
One of his other books, called Streams of Living Water. The book is subtitled "Celebrating the Great Traditions of Christian Faith", and it seeks ...from within the fractious different flavors of Christianity...to affirm the value of what he believes to be the six main traditions and beautifully ties together a picture of the body of Christ as you, grampster, described.
His website, http://www.renovare.org/ goes into further detail, and I would highly recommend it and his writings.
matis, any word on Rabbi Lapin's Toward Tradition? I'm genuinely interested if you find the info.
Post by: matis on November 27, 2005, 07:01:17 PM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
Well said, grampster. IMHO, we share this common ground: love of God, Family, Country. And RKBA.
As Grampster would say, please count me in here (just want to make sure 
)Quote
Honest question #1: Do orthodox Jews consider Christians to be followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
(I think we are, but I think MANY if not most U.S. Christians "worship Jesus" and consider the Father and the Spirit to be some nebulous afterthought. I believe that to be patently wrong. Don't want to get into BIG theological stew, but the guy I call G-d, who I bow and worship, is the dad. I guess I struggle with the "triune G-d" thing.
Honest question #2: Think about Utah. Conservative stronghold. You know where I'm going with this. If we can extend a hand of friendship among Jews and Christians, I would like to see Mormons a part of this "cooperative alliance" as well.
Conservative, good family values, and love God, Family and Country. Don't wanna go to the Tabernacle with 'em, but in the interest of advancing common causes, another good (potential) ally.
What do you guys think?
Sounds GREAT to me!(I think we are, but I think MANY if not most U.S. Christians "worship Jesus" and consider the Father and the Spirit to be some nebulous afterthought. I believe that to be patently wrong. Don't want to get into BIG theological stew, but the guy I call G-d, who I bow and worship, is the dad. I guess I struggle with the "triune G-d" thing.
Honest question #2: Think about Utah. Conservative stronghold. You know where I'm going with this. If we can extend a hand of friendship among Jews and Christians, I would like to see Mormons a part of this "cooperative alliance" as well.
Conservative, good family values, and love God, Family and Country. Don't wanna go to the Tabernacle with 'em, but in the interest of advancing common causes, another good (potential) ally.
What do you guys think?
Today was hectic and tried to stay off the net 'cause I tend to get lost in it to the detriment of minor things like making a living, etc.
So I never googled Rabbi Lapin's org today. But I will and I will report back.
As for Honest question #1: I can answer for myself; what Orthodox Jews think about that it's better that I enquire and then report back -- both for myself and what I learn from them. The Chabad Rabbis I consort
with are at a Chabad symposium in New York so that may take a few days.Honest question #2 also appeals to me. I have known Mormons years ago when I lived in Los Angeles. And I remember them to be just like you said. Mormons are definitely part of the solution.
Sometimes, when I get discouraged by the social problems I see around me and especially when I hear the BACKWARDS solutions proposed by "experts" or government -- I get thoughts of moving to Salt Lake City. I hear that they have it very much together there. And fewer gay parades with naked guys dancing in the street sort of thing. General population just seems to hold to higher standards. Better place to bring up children.
I think it useful to ask each other such questions so we can learn about and get comfortable around each other. But, as you said, not to dwell on each other's theology. The different groups have very different theologies. Even different enough to seem strange.
So we need to reduce the strangeness and get comfortable. Once that is past, I would love to see us find our way to do something practical about the problems tearing at our society. The common ground you mentioned above is the main thing.
It seems to me that this common ground is crumbling around me.
Simply learning about each other is very useful and I don't mean some grandiose plan to fix everything.
I just wish I could contribute a bit more than I do.
My main energies must belong to the Jewish people. Nevertheless, this might also produce some value to help out.
No?
matis
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 07:04:32 PM
Quote from: sm
He continued , "I ...I never prayed before, so Steve gave me one for in the morning and one at night. In the morning I said "Help" At night I said "Thank You".
"Get your ass up and give me a hug" he did. Then I made the guy chairing the meeting hand Sam, the fellow whom only new two prayers and believe a Column was stronger than he, chair the meeting.
'I don't know what to do?' Sam said.
'Yeah you do, it is inside of you, you done started off this meeting on the right path - trust your gut'.
"But we are supposed to be talking about Step 4 tonight".
"Screw the rules, rules got us in trouble at times, you do not know whom in this meeting needed to hear what you already shared and is hoping to hear more of the same".
---
I cannot have resentments, not being a drunk - no matter the years of sobriety I have. Of course it took a year to learn ( maybe it finally sunk in) that was okay to be pissed. Acceptance is the key, stupid me did not think I could get angry anymore...kinda pissed me off. Being mad is an emotion, I can do that.
I got 'mad' at some "organized religions" - I do not deny this. AA was a program of Attraction - not Promotion.
So I turned more inward, and less what a "building" said.
This speaks of a return to what I'm calling one's "Authentic Self". When you taught that guy to pray, that was deep, profound and sublime. "Help" in the morning and "Thank You" at night pretty much says it all."Get your ass up and give me a hug" he did. Then I made the guy chairing the meeting hand Sam, the fellow whom only new two prayers and believe a Column was stronger than he, chair the meeting.
'I don't know what to do?' Sam said.
'Yeah you do, it is inside of you, you done started off this meeting on the right path - trust your gut'.
"But we are supposed to be talking about Step 4 tonight".
"Screw the rules, rules got us in trouble at times, you do not know whom in this meeting needed to hear what you already shared and is hoping to hear more of the same".
---
I cannot have resentments, not being a drunk - no matter the years of sobriety I have. Of course it took a year to learn ( maybe it finally sunk in) that was okay to be pissed. Acceptance is the key, stupid me did not think I could get angry anymore...kinda pissed me off. Being mad is an emotion, I can do that.
I got 'mad' at some "organized religions" - I do not deny this. AA was a program of Attraction - not Promotion.
So I turned more inward, and less what a "building" said.
And, whether it's in the woods, in the Bapticostal, Episco-presby-Chassidic building, or walking down the street, I keep going back to how God would come to the Garden of Eden and talk with Adam in the cool of the evening.
There wasn't a whole lot of liturgy, pomp & circumstance, special robes or underwear, or layers of hoops to jump through.
Just "hey, big guy." Thanks for making Eve such a hottie. Glad we walk around naked!"
...or the like.
You know..."help" in the morning, and "thank you" at night.
Post by: matis on November 27, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
Quote from: sm
Truth is - it is complicated. I do NOT have the skills to express myself verbally or written as many do - I admit this.
It's late but I just wanted to write this to you, sm.It can be VERY complicated. Try to imagine an atheist who struggles toward G-d and has to build work-arounds for his own, outdated mental apparatus to enable him to keep reaching.
Complicated. But joyful.
And about your ability to express yourself. Just wanted to say that I find your writing style effective and powerful.
You bring me into your situations and I see them and I feel them
And you make your points by describing situations instead of by "explaining" them.
To me that's powerful.
If you can do that "without the skills" I'm afraid to think what you could do with them.
Just wanted to get that off my chest before shutting down the computer for the night.
matis
Post by: Guest on November 27, 2005, 08:21:50 PM
All I did was be a hardcore sponsor , making suggestions to a new guy. Passing forward as passed to me...well not at first ...see in my case, my first trip to the meeting place I was not ready...I had to find a lower bottom. I am one of the 'remarkable few' - the dumbasses that live long enough to acutally come back and try a second time. The real "miracle" is it stuck. This is real thin ice, really skates the edge of this getting sober dealie...but I did not do it by myself. My butt wouldn't bounce no more...
Sam did it and whatever his perception of a Higher Power - me, I was the hard-ass doing a James Dean Lean.
Since I am way over my head anyway...and for sure can't express myself...
These , (not what do I refer to them...) Representatives of Dieties ( that okay without offending anyone?) ...My perception from what reading and comprehension is they were not "goody two shoed". Instead , blunt, to the point, perhaps even gruff, and didn't always use finesse and tact in dealing with folks.
From what reading , I see a common thread of "Commandments" and all seen to say the "Golden Rule" in pretty much the same way.
Yes I am aware different 'sects' started because of a Doctrine , and seems to me in the Protestant folks, due to interpretation. Often cited as to which translation.
Hence the reason I wanted to read the Torah. I read various "Bibles" and grew up with King James Version. I read some older ones - I forget. Sure different from newer versions.
My family. Okay, already I am doomed for attending a Catholic Mass, a Espicopalian Mass...the one for 25th of Dec. Really neat moving experience. Like to have worn my knees out with them kneeling benches...I am really doomed for reading the Torah. Get yelled at for the term "Higher Power" and "Big Book" Then I get blasted six ways to Sunday...they were giving away little New Testiment Bibles at College of a new "Version' silly me thought one of the family might like to have it.
Now granted I preferred the KJV, Still I replied " Okay folks, there is a difference in Spirituality and Religion. Now you are gonna stand there and tell me if the only version of any type of reference of Spirituality is a New Version of a New Testiment some one ever sees ...they are going to hell in a handbasket?"
"I mean , this may be the only spiritual thing they have ever been exposed to. Nope , sorry you folks are crazier than road lizards. Each person has a right to have a belief system, or not have one. I won't even get into COTUS and BOR , becasue none of you folks have read them either. A person is supposed to have the right to do what they feel is right for them. A person is supposed to interpret for themselves what they read".
Oh about 6 months later all hell broke loose. Seems a Preacher of one the family folks said it was okay to use newer versions instead of KJV and in fact was dunning to have some little NT of new versions ordered for kids....
I never said a word when I found out...that family kept distance and shut me off.
IN the AA Big Book is a quote attributed to Henry Spencer. Later I hear it is suposed to be from someone else.
Don't have it handy , and going from memory the bottom line is "Condemnation before Investigation.
My take- there is a natural order to things, always has been. Just watch nature. Mentioned before was different sects forming their own bunch.
Of late, well the morals and ethics have gone south in society. Their Bldg says you cannot so something - start your own group. You get mad you cannot divorce the goat this group said you could marry...start a new sect saying getting divorced from a goat is fine and might as well toss in having multiple goat partners is fine too...
Under the guise of organized religions , Morals, Ethics and such are watered down - IMO as a result of some of this. Other part that scares me is instead of Separation of Church and State...some appear to be "state run".
I dunno, Mom's old church split and an aweful mess over money and church blds...she left after being a member for something like 45 years. Now the church she attends now wants to do the same thing...bigger bldg and move some 20 miles away. She and the old folks...are against it. MY suggestion, just meet at someones house...."No you are supposed to have a Bldg."
"Find me in any version you are SUPPOSED to have a Bldg. Nope sorry mom, it is nice to have, perhaps suggested, but I have not set foot in a bldg years and I remember "Where two or three are gathered"...and it even says, out in the middle of nowhere all alone...you ain't".
I'm the friggin heathen. Oh well , every family has one I suppose, they picked me.
steve
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 27, 2005, 08:25:20 PM
I consider your writing to be VERY accomplished. It's in the style of the cowboy poets.
I bet you even look like Sam Elliott, with a big bushy mustache and chewing on a sprig of wheat.
...at least, that's how I see you in my mind.
Fig
Post by: Guest on November 27, 2005, 09:34:45 PM
Preacherman and Larry are the only two folks that have seen me. Many others have heard my voice.
My appearance...well in another life I sometimes varied it. Gone from pony tail to shorter. Been sporting a mustache since I was twenty. Mustache has been various lengths and thicknesses.
My second wife said I reminded her of Sam Elliot, this is a good thing as she said if Sam Elliot ever rang the doorbell - she was gonna leave with him. *smirk*.
I have no gray hair - except a wee bit in the mustache...must be Cisco doing that...Still in the Sacketts she said I reminded her of Sam Elliot in that movie. In another one where he plays a Undercover cop...and my hair and mustache was longer , I was that Sam Elliot.
Now where her sister got the Alan Jackson idea and me...must have been the time I was cutting accross a field, keeping the revs up so I would not get stuck and slinging mud everywhere...I think Jackson had a video, and I was wearing a Stetson that day...
Other folks have used the same analogies...'You remind me of that old guy in that old cowboy movie with Selleck in it...or that fellow that does country and does that song...Sigh...
See I used to do some stuff and keep low profile about it. Still keep low profile because of that life. So If I arrived as a blue jeaned hippie, and left with casual slacks and my hair 'styled" and stache trimmed...
or ponytail inside my collar , or...I was good at being not seen or remembered.
At the moment, hair and stache is longer than Preacher and Larry saw it...
I had to do some stuff and figured I'd not be 'remembered' so well.
I wore a coat and tie,, even carried a 'gator briefcase, drove a sports car that day.. normal attire is faded jeans and oxford shirts with tennis shoes, and a backpack. I drive a truck.
Hide in plain site as they say.
Difference in me being this way, I am me. It is for personal reasons and safety. I know who I am and my core is centered...
Now folks pretending on this Religious / Spiritual matter ...well...one has to wonder if they really know whom they are, are they centered or are they looking for validation, rationale, or need to have someone or some group group to be whole.
My understanding is one does not neccessarily need others on earth to be whole in a Religous/ Sprirtual sense .
Sense of belonging is HUMAN nature....
Post by: Guest on November 27, 2005, 11:47:42 PM
Post by: Strings on November 28, 2005, 12:31:30 AM
Think the best I ever heard was a Sikh friend in Thailand: "God is One, and we are all His children"
Works for me!
Post by: grampster on November 28, 2005, 07:27:39 AM
Anticipation is fun and I'm anticipating hearing about how others feel about sprititual things and how that translates into daily life.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 08:08:24 AM
Barbara, one of the most moving things I've ever read is R.W. Emerson's Harvard Divinity school address, found here: http://www.emersoncentral.com/divaddr.htm. He was a UU, a Unitarian Universalist minister.
Hunter Rose, I think we move in many concentric "circles of influence". You and I obviously share a commitment to RKBA. I think we sort of touched on a definition of the commonality that some of us share: conservative values, with honor and service to God, Family, and Country. If that works for you, great. If not, heck we can still be friends and work shoulder to shoulder on the things we agree on.
Fig
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 08:30:42 AM
My family and I presently go to a Southern Baptist Church. In our tiny community, it's the closest I get to where my heart lies. I have SEVERAL problems with their systematic theology, as well as the practice of SOME of their traditions. I agree with the core, the meat and the seeds of the fruit, but not the peeling.
George Fox and the Quakers held much greater emphasis on "primary experience", a first-hand contact with the Divine. They are really the closest "systematic theology" that I've found to define my own. Richard J. Foster is a well-known modern author and does a good job of communicating these ideas. His website is www.renovare.org.
This is what I've found that works for me. I'm not insisting you embrace it, but it may help some to understand where I'm coming from.
Post by: One of Many on November 28, 2005, 11:15:48 AM
People quarrel over whether 'God is One' or 'God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. People name their religious group after some human who devised a particular doctrine and imposed it on their followers, or name themselves for a particular doctrine they favor.
Jesus said it is "MY CHURCH", the "church of God which He purchased with His own blood". The church which is "His Body", and of which "He is the Head", and it is "subject to Him". The "household of God, which is the church of the Living God", composed of members that are "in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". The church is the possession of God and is given to Christ; if you want to be a part of the one true church, you must follow the teachings of Christ, and not subvert and pervert the will of God, by creating and following the doctrines established by men.
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
If you want to follow doctrines of men, and call yourself Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian, Baptist, Unitarian, Morman, Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddist, etc. - that is your choice; non of those religious groups can accurately call themselves "Christian", because they either do not teach ONLY the UNALTERED doctrines (all of them) of Christ (the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth), or don't teach Christ as Diety at all.
Just because a person is a good and moral person, does not mean that person is acceptable to God; if you want to spend eternity with God in Paradise, you must Believe and Obey the Word of God. That is not inclusive of the false doctrines of men, however good or moral they may seem to be, or how popular they may be.
STUDY the Word of God, and study it more; don't stop studying the message of salvation. It is in your belief and works that you will be judged by God. You are personnaly responsible for what you believe and how you act; you can't excuse yourself by saying "brother so-and-so said I should belive this way and act that way".
I will not tell you what to believe, or how to act, or who to worship with; God gives that information to any and all that search His Word for the truth.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 11:22:38 AM
I think what we're trying to do is get BEYOND the doctrine, and to personal relationship with G-d.
Just curious...for you is it KJV1611 only?
Fig
Post by: Guest on November 28, 2005, 11:33:47 AM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 12:47:16 PM
Post by: Guest on November 28, 2005, 12:52:23 PM
I'm just not comfortable having the conversation.
Sorry I didn't say that.
Post by: Strings on November 28, 2005, 02:16:29 PM
Reminds me of a story I read somewhere...
Yankee had moved south, and had a run-in with the Klan. Sherrif ended up called, and said something to the Yankee that I've used as a giude in life: "there are White People, and Black People. Then there's Trash, and N******. Blacks and white never have had a problem getting along"
Replace race with religious choice, and I think you'll see where I'm comming from.
Oh... can one of the things we work on be curbing Preacherman's tendancy to be such a punny guy?
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 03:14:01 PM
Fig
Post by: Strings on November 28, 2005, 04:31:11 PM
I think that's the biggest problem right there: simple respect for another's beliefs. Amazing how often it just doesn't exist.
My paintball pusher is a deacon in his church. Great guy, DEEPLY religious. We sat in his shop one night for several hours after close, discussing the similarities between prayer and magic. No toes stepped on. Once in awhile he'll ask if I've finally accepted Jesus: I keep telling him "only Mastercard"...
I kinda feel like many here would be the same way.
Post by: grampster on November 28, 2005, 04:44:19 PM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 28, 2005, 05:46:42 PM
Gives me a thread idea!
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1925
Post by: matis on November 29, 2005, 05:18:54 PM
I found the article below written by the founder, Rabbi Daniel Lappin.
I loved the article.
I found my childhood experience depicted.
I even found my "I wasn't there and I didn't do it (kill Christ) and American Christians weren't there (Europe) and didn't do it (kill jews) either argument!
Wow! What I've groped and stumbled toward -- he's got it all layed out!
And the Rabbi details, with far greater eloquence and erudition than I can muster, how and why the Jewish experience in America is so different from all other countries of the diaspora. And why American Christians are so different than their European counterparts.
This man gives more than his opinions. He describes in great detail the "Hebrew connection" in America that is so unique. He lays it out, chapter and verse, so to speak.
And he pulls no punches toward American Jews who persist in their suspicion/hostility toward their Chrisian fellow Americans. In this he's truly one of the few.
When he's through, it is impossible for liberal Ameriocan Jews to avoid facing the truth that their "enlightened" and "progressive" activism is befouling their own nests (and that of their fellow Christian Americans).
And to the extent that they succeed, they will have killed exactly that which makes America so hospitable to its Jews!
I hope you find this essay as absorbing as I did.
(Fig, I haven't forgotten your "honest questions.")
matis
This article appeared in the Winter 2004 issue of Jewish Action, the journal of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America.
Living as Jews in Christian America
June 10, 2005
By Rabbi Daniel Lapin
President, Toward Tradition
As a boy I hungrily absorbed the eye-opening Torah teaching of my father, the late Avraham Chayim Lapin z tzl, along with his terrifying tales of the viciousness of Lithuanian and Polish goyim that he endured while a student at Telshe Yeshiva in pre-World War II Europe. I quickly came to understand. Goyim hate Jews and try to hurt them. That is all there was to it.
Later, as a student at that famed yeshiva located amidst some of the worst slums of northern England, I learned the rough-and-ready science of self defense on the streets of Gateshead. Lurking in the dark alleys that lay between the Beit Midrash and our lodgings, Gateshead goyim waited eagerly to prey and pounce upon me and my fellow talmidim. The contrast between those sinister streets full of Tyneside louts with their foul mouths and flying fists and the refined atmosphere of the yeshiva was almost beyond comprehension. My uncles, the distinguished roshei yeshiva, Reb Leib Gurwitz z tzl and Reb Leib Lapian z tzl, occasionally commented upon the bloody battle scars borne by their students. Although they would remind us that goyim hate Jews, almost as the fulfillment of ancient prophecies, I think they both would have preferred us to evade trouble rather than confronting it. I think they also suspected that their nephew derived more than a little unholy glee from inflicting retaliatory punishment upon our tormentors.
During summer trips to France, Switzerland, and other European tourist destinations, I came to experience further evidence that goyim hate Jews and try to hurt us. And with all my travels, it was not until my late twenties that for the first time I crossed the Atlantic and came to America.
Hoping to see as much as possible of this vast new land during the short visit I had planned, I picked up a full set of United States maps from the now defunct Texaco store in mid-town Manhattan. Returning to my Brooklyn boarding house, I set the maps out on a large table and began poring over them in eager anticipation of my forthcoming road trip.
Suddenly my eye locked on to the town of Salem in Kentucky. Wow! Salem is the Biblical name for Jerusalem. How weird, I thought, as the ancient words of Genesis echoed in my mind: And Malchizedek, King of Salem, brought out bread and wine as he prepared to bless Avraham Avinu. How could the king that Rashi identifies as Shem, the son of Noah, of the city that Unkelos identifies as Jerusalem, come to life in a small southern town. I was jolted from this reverie as Salem, Massachusetts leaped at me off the page. Then Salem, Oregon, and then, my goodness, Salem, Illinois, followed by Salem, Indiana, Salem, Arkansas, and then nineteen other Salems! I was aware of no other Salems in any of the many other countries I had visited in Africa and Europe. What was going on here?
As if hypnotized, my gaze was drawn to Hebron, Texas, then Hebron, Ohio, followed by nine more Hebrons. With maps flailing around the table, I quickly homed in on Zion, New Jersey, Zion, South Carolina, and another six Zions. How about Jericho, I wondered. Well, there just for starters was Jericho, Vermont and Jericho, New York.
The mountain of Moses, Har Nevo, memorialized in Nebo, Louisiana, and Nebo, Missouri along with two or three others. (Remember that the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet reads as either a b or a v depending on punctuation.) How about twenty or so Lebanons or New Lebanons, eight Bethlehems, about a dozen Bethels (mouth of God) and a Piel, Washington, (mouth of God). Rehoboth, Goshen, Canaan, and New Cannan. There was no end to this! But you get the idea. To a recent arrival in New York with the dust of Kennedy airport still on his hat, this was all quite an astounding discovery. Still, I assumed that everyone else knew of this and so I felt quite ignorant. Heading out to the nearest shul for a mincha minyan, I eagerly awaited the end of the davening so I could inquire of the rabbi. I asked him who were the remarkable people who came to this country and could find no better names for their new homes than Biblical place names? To my astonishment he seemed to be not only unaware but also indifferent. I tried other synagogues and other rabbis yet few were able to provide a persuasive explanation for why of all countries, America alone had been populated by people seemingly in love with Tanach.
There and then, although it involved several subsequent years as an illegal alien, I resolved not to leave this country until I fully understood who these remarkable people really were. By the time I came to know and understand them, I no longer wished to leave and here among their children and amidst several million of my brethren I have been ever since.
Let me tell you a little about what I came to learn about those people for in coming to understand the fathers, I came to know the children. And in knowing the children, todays American Christians, I came to see why America has offered our people the safest, most tranquil, most durable, and most prosperous home we have enjoyed in the past two thousand years. You will see that we Jews have enjoyed this unprecedented paradise, not in spite of the Biblical values of its founders but precisely because of them.
But before examining the unique peculiarities of American Christians, let us glance at how our sages were already viewing early Christianity. British Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks points out that R. Menahem Ha-Meiri, the fourteenth century Provencal scholar, introduced a new perspective in framing relations between Jews and the wider Christian societies in which they lived.
It has already been stated that these things [laws relating to gentiles] were said concerning periods when there existed nations of idolaters, and they were contaminated in their deeds and tainted in their dispositions . . . but other nations, which are restrained by the ways of religion and which are free from such blemishes of character - on the contrary, they even punish such deeds - are, without doubt, exempt from this prohibition. (Meiri, Bet Habechirah, Avodah Zarah)
He explains that according to Meiri, all mishnaic rules circumscribing business and other transactions with non-Jews are to be understood as referring to pagan or polytheistic cultures, no longer extant, which in addition to being idolatrous were also unprincipled in their dealings with people. That has now changed. The nations amongst whom Jews lived were now "restrained by the ways of religion" and were therefore to be regarded as on a par with the "resident alien" of biblical times, namely as "the pious of the nations of the world."
The introduction to R. Jonathan Eybeschutz's halakhic commentary, Kreti uPleti makes the same assertion about European Christians though their devotion to Tanach and its Jewish interpretation doesnt come close to that of American Christians.
The Christian nations among whom we live, broadly uphold the principles of justice and righteousness, believe in the creation of the world and the existence of God, and in the Law of Moses and the prophets, and oppose the Sadducean view that denies the resurrection of the dead and the immortality of the soul. Therefore it is fitting to be thankful to them, to praise and extol them, and to bring upon them blessings and not, God forbid, curses.
This is a far cry from the way so many American Jews view Christians in spite of the fact that American Christians are even more righteous in the terms of Rabbi Jonathan Eybeschutz. For instance, in its early pre-Revolutionary-War years, Harvard, a college founded by Puritans who were denied higher education in England, placed a far greater emphasis on the study of the Bible in its original Hebrew than any other university in the world. By 1776 ten universities stood on American soil and they all required study of the Bible in Hebrew. Puritan minister Increase Mather, a future president of Harvard, was named thus because his parents translated the Hebrew name Yoseif correctly. His son Cotton Mather later became a founder of Yale.
American Christians do love Jews and Israel and much of their reason lies in the vision of the Founders who saw America as trying to step under the protective umbrella of Gods covenant with ancient Israel. For instance, Jefferson Adams, Madison and almost all of Americas Founders were indirectly initiated into much of the Oral Torah, the commentaries that British author George Eliot termed the great transmitters. Their direct sources, especially John Locke, developed their theories of individual rights, property rights, religious toleration, and a federal republic form government based on the biblically derived theories of great 17th century scholars such as British Jurist John Selden and Hugo Grotius along with his Dutch contemporaries who in turn were taught by the Dutch rabbi, Menashe ben Israel, close confidante of the artist, Rembrandt, and friend of Oliver Cromwell. Grotius, Selden and their contemporaries developed their laws of nations and theories of natural law based on the teaching of Rambam, whom they quote and the oral Torah, including extensive study of the Noachide laws. Their theories focused on the first chapters of Genesis, which they understood as having universal application to all mankind, and they became the philosophical foundation for the creation of America.
To understand this sudden outburst of learning about Judaism and the Hebrew Bible, we have to realize that the 17th century followed the protestant Reformation of the 16th century, which allowed Christians for the first time to read the Bible without the filter of the Catholic Church. Protestants began to search for the true meaning of the words they were reading for the first time, especially in the Old Testament, and turned to Hebrew and eventually the Jewish sages, most prominently Rambam. His influence on the intellectual development of the 17th century, including upon giants like Isaac Newton, is now just beginning to be understood by scholars.
The Reformation and the newly developed yearning for political and religious freedom helped to sculpt the milieu in which the Pilgrims left England in 1608, first for Leyden, Holland where they studied Hebrew and then in 1621 on the Mayflower for what its second governor, William Bradford, called the Plymouth Plantation. Bradford brought to America what is considered by most historians one of the first Hebrew to English translation and commentary on the Chumash and Psalms by the Christian Hebraist, Henry Ainsworth (1612). This voluminous commentary contains extensive quotes and explanations from Rambam (Mishneh Torah and Moreh Nevuchim), Targum Yonatan, R Menachem Recanti, Pirke DRabbi Eliezer, and other leading sages. Through Ainsworth, Americas earliest settlers were exposed to the Noachide laws, the true meaning of an eye for an eye, and many other traditional Jewish interpretations of the Torah.
One of my most treasured possessions is a reproduction of William Bradfords seventeenth century book, History of the Plymouth Plantation. Bradford, who had come over on the Mayflower, was the second governor of the colony and filled the first twenty or so pages of his manuscript with words and sentences in Biblical Hebrew which he painstakingly translated. He describes Hebrew as the language in which God spoke to the patriarchs and the language in which Adam named all creatures and explains this as the reason he wanted to study the Lords language. Thomas Jefferson would later describe Hebrew as the very language of the divine communication.
As Samuel P. Huntington writes, Americans have always been extremely religious and overwhelmingly Christian. The 17th-century settlers founded their communities in America in large part for religious reasons. Eighteenth-century Americans saw their Revolution in religious and largely biblical terms.
Whether by chance or Providence, America was founded at the optimum time in European intellectual history. After Locke, European intellectuals de-Christianized and de-Judaized their political ideas. They abandoned the biblically based foundation of human rights and political liberty for the Godless theories of the Enlightenment, some of which were based on ideas from secular Jews such as Spinoza. This diversion helps explain explains why Europes political development was so differently from Americas and why America has been such a special place for Jews and Christians.
When New York University was established early in the 19th century, one of the first professors hired was a Protestant clergyman as the professor of Hebrew. His name, as Professor Shalom Goldman reminds us, was George Bush, an ancestor of President George W. Bush.
As recently as 1982, a joint resolution passed by the 97th Congress of the United States declared:
Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;
Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;
Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States;
Whereas many of our great national leaders - among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln, Wilson, and Truman - paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country's development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is "the rock on which our Republic rests.
I found it hard to deny. Americas culture is Biblical, an amalgam of Jewish and Christian values, and so is our government. This may sound strange. We are told that the genius of our constitutional government lies precisely in the fact that it separates church from state. That of course is a distortion of the historical reality. Permit me to dispel the myth that sees nothing Biblical in the form of American government.
The historian Robert Bellah wrote that "The Bible was the one book that literate Americans in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries could be expected to know well. Biblical imagery provided the basic framework for imaginative thought in America up until quite recent times; and unconsciously, its control is still formidable." Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University , went farther. He called our country "God's American Israel." One of his closest friends was Rabbi Chayim Yitzchak Carigal who was born in Hebron, Palestine in 1733. In many ways the Founders of American democracy looked for inspiration to the Torah.
I find evidence of this in the chapters in Deuteronomy that prescribe the form of government which God ordained for Bnai Yisrael. The first sentence of the Torah portion of Shoftim, explains how government officials are to be appointed: "Judges and officers shall you appoint in your gates&" The words translated "your gates" (sh'arechah) are explained by Jewish tradition to mean that these officials are to be appointed on a city-by-city basis.
In other words, what the Torah is prescribing is federalism, a system of emphatically local government where officers are drawn from the local populace, not from a far-away capitol. Their perspective will then be local, not national. City customs and manners will be observed and respected, rather than being trampled upon by bureaucrats who think they know better.
Another fascinating indication of how government is to be organized may be found elsewhere in Tanach, in Isaiah's prophecies: "For the Lord is our Judge; the Lord is our Lawgiver; the Lord is our King&" Here, I think it's clear to see, is the tripartite system of administration found in the Constitution, with its judicial, legislative, and executive branches. It is also fascinating that the names referring to God in the Declaration of Independence are not names specific to Christianity such as son, savior, or holy spirit, but names drawn from the Hebrew Bible Creator, Lawgiver, Judge, and Providence.
In a later Deuteronomy chapter, we find the laws pertaining to the chief executive officer of the government in Israel 's case, a king. In America our CEO is called the president, but one notes many striking parallels. In choosing our leader, the very first criterion the Torah sets out is that he is to be native-born: "from among your brethren shall you set a king over yourself; you cannot place over yourself a foreign man, who is not your brother".
Other nations have experimented with foreign-born rulers, and have seen for themselves the catastrophes this can bring. Germany had Hitler, an Austrian. Russia had Stalin, a Georgian. France had Napoleon, a Corsican. The man appointed to rule a country of which is not a native lacks the feeling of brotherhood with its citizens that would restrain the hand and the will of a leader who is native-born. The foreigner takes chances with his adopted country in pursuit of his own glory, or his own twisted ideals.
God knows this and directed Israel to choose wisely. America 's Founders knew it too, and ordained that the American president should be native-born.
Some will argue that the king of Israel could not possibly have provided inspiration to the Founders. After all, not only is there no church-state separation in the form of government described in the Torah: the church, so to speak, is the state.
And yet it's more complicated than that, for Torah-based government does provide a kind of parallel to our Constitution's prohibition of a state church. While the king is clearly a religious leader - after all, he carries a scroll of the Torah with him at all times (see Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim 3:1) - this monarch is expressly not meant to be a priest, a cohen. The priesthood is drawn from the tribe of Levi, while the king comes from the tribe of Judah. This is a significant division of responsibility and one that was explored in Seldens final but uncompleted work on the Sanhedrin as a model for the coordination, and separation of the three great types of laws governing mankind that Locke would later summarize as: the divine law, the civil law, and the law of opinion and reputation.
We have here not any crude "separation" of religious and secular authority, as First Amendment extremists call for today. Rather, God sets up an exquisite tension, a unique balance.
The authority of the king is not priestly, but it is informed by religious precept, symbolized by the Torah scroll the monarch carries. So too, again, with our own American Republic, where the president's authority is separate from that of any particular church, but where the government as a whole is meant to imbued, uplifted, and inspired by the values of faith and tradition.
It gradually became clear to me why early Americans named their towns and villages after the places in which our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob dwelled. It also became clear to me that their descendants retained complete conviction in the verse from Genesis I will bless those that bless you and those that curse you shall I curse. For them, it provided the reason that God had so obviously blessed the United States of America and would continue to bless this land so long as its citizens continued to bless the descendants of Abraham.
In February of 2004 I was privileged to call together a private meeting of twenty Evangelical Christian leaders in Washington DC at the request of a top Israeli government official who wished to meet with them. I am not at liberty to disclose the purpose of the meeting but I can tell you that the Israeli government representative whose name you would immediately recognize was as profoundly moved as was I by some statements made by several of the Christian leaders present. These men, whose televised messages are carried each day into upwards of twenty million American homes, told of how their mothers had made them listen to the radio as Israel came into existence in 1948, or for the younger ones how their mothers relayed the same message in front of the television in 1967. Their mothers carefully explained to them that this was the moment of God keeping His promise to the Chosen People. They pointed to this transmission from their mothers as the source of their love for Israel and the Jewish people, not speculative theories of the end times that they would only learn of as adults.
Which brings us to our neighbors and friends in America today, the Evangelical Right. Do they want to convert us to Christianity? Of course they would like to do so. However what a blessed time we live in when Christians want to convert us with words rather than with guns and knives. We live in a time and place where constitutional guarantees assure us that only words will be used, but we should remember that these guarantees were all derived from the Word of God.
It is useful to realize that throughout our history, when we have been given the choice of renouncing our faith or being murdered, we Jews have nearly always chosen death. If forced to choose we have always preferred a soul without a body to a body without a soul. American Christians do not threaten our bodies and while it is true that their teachings can threaten our souls, the enemy in this case is not Christianity but Jewish ignorance. When a disease invades a countrys borders, the first step is not trying to destroy the disease (especially if that is not possible) but it is inoculating the population. However we can never force people to get inoculated, can we? Most of our communities do have rabbinic resources to inoculate our spiritually vulnerable young people. We cant force parents to use these resources but perhaps our Jewish federations and other organizations can help advertise the existence of these inoculating resources.
Regardless of how distressing it is to see alienated Jews abandoning our faith, I am convinced that attempting to silence, reprove, or condemn Christians in an effort to prevent Jews converting to Christianity is not a really effective approach. One problem is that it causes resentment without accomplishing very much. You see, some Christians regard Evangelism to be the greatest act of religious fervor. It is unlikely that Jewish opposition will discourage them. Our noisy opposition often comes across as futile blustering and bullying. After all, they too have a long tradition of sacrificing for their faith and wont cease on our account. However we will risk squandering a special friendship that may be Gods gift to us during perilous times.
Many Christians are as aware as we are that we are losing far more Jews to Scientology, to Hindu-related faiths, and to just plain secular hedonism than we are to Christianity. They wonder, with some justification, why as a community, we are not protesting Scientologys outreach, Krishna outreach efforts, and the seduction of secularism as ardently as we seem to protest Christian outreach. They sense that we Jews harbor a special and unique antagonism toward Christianity. While we undoubtedly retain an institutional memory of many years of Christian persecution, most American Christians are Protestants, not Catholics, and I have not been able to locate a single verifiable account of any Protestant pogroms. Martin Luther may not have had warm feelings toward us, but neither he nor his followers seem to have acted upon those feelings in any way that harmed Jews or their property. In the same way that we object to being blamed for the death of Jesus, American Protestants object to being blamed for the suffering of Jews in Europe. After all, they point out, not a single American Jew has ever been murdered, mugged, robbed or raped by Christians on their way home from church on Sunday morning.
I have spent well over a quarter of a century of my life deeply committed to teaching Judaism to Jews brought up in ignorance about their religion. When Jewish Americans know the name of Jesus mother but not that of Moses mother; when they know more of Khalil Gibran than they do of the Kuzari, when they cannot understand or even read the Bible in its original Hebrew; when they find more warmth in the Christian community than in the Jewish one, then it is a Jewishnot a Christianproblem. Christian leaders, among them, Reverend Jerry Falwell, have told me that Evangelistic efforts are not effective among practicing religious and Torah educated Jews.
But many Jews of our generation have never been exposed to authentic Judaism. They arent rebellious, they are simply ignorant. It is true that they are tragically vulnerable to spiritual seduction. To my dismay, a heartbreaking occurrence often takes place in one form or another after I speak to Christian audiences; a lovely sincere member of the audience comes up after my speech to tell me that she was raised in a non observant Jewish home. At some time she felt an emptiness and attempted to attend synagogue, often even meeting with the local rabbi, usually a rabbi from the Reform movement which is overwhelmingly politically liberal and opposed to traditional Jewish law.
Instead of receiving spiritual guidance on drawing closer to a loving God and advice on how to enhance her life by Living Jewish, she was told how Judaism today was expressed by social action, by changing the world. Her Jewish soul was still parched and what is more, she wasnt convinced that the liberal social causes she was urged to advocate were right. The rabbi seemed willing to cut out parts of the Torah that disagreed with the politically correct social conscience of the day, so it didnt seem that he even took his religion seriously. Totally unaware that this rabbi didnt represent an authentic connection with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, she kept up her search for meaning and eventually found it in Christianity, still in total ignorance of her own faith. Many times have I been grateful that my presence provided a last ditch opportunity for such a person to reexamine Judaism.
Not only is it wrong to blame Christians for such conversions, it is not effective. When Europe blamed the Jews for the Black Death and went on a murderous rampage, they not only committed a great evil, but they also failed to find the real cause. Having a scapegoat may have kept them from discovering the real cause of the plague sooner. When Jews blame Christians for their childrens conversions, they are finding a scapegoatalbeit without the shedding of bloodand they are not dealing with the real cause, an abysmal ignorance of Judaism and a disinclination to recognize Judaism as a God-centered religion instead of a Woody Allen fan club. The loss will be stemmed not by attacking Christians but by teaching authentic Judaism to Jews.
If we Jews were ever to find a sword at our throats or a .357 Magnum at our foreheads and an ultimatum to convert to Christianity, as has happened in other places and at other times, I would agree that we have a problem. But if American law, which prohibits people from pointing weapons at one another, were to be abrogated sufficiently to allow forced conversions to Christianity, then I can assure you that American Jews, like other Americans, will have bigger problems than religious freedom. On occasion a sincere Christian, wanting to share something he considers to be of inestimable value has invited my children to contemplate a relationship with Jesus. My son and my daughters respond politely and respectfully while firmly declining. Their faith was not threatened for a moment. This is because my wife and I made it an absolute priority to introduce our children to God from their earliest years. Each evening we helped them say and understand the pre-Shema prayer, With an abundant love you love us Oh Lord our God. Sadly, many Jews would immediately suspect this to be a Christian prayer, just as some would become indignant at a public reading of another prayer they assume to be Christian, The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
Our problem is that we have failed to mass market the only ultimately compelling reasons for being Jewish: an infatuation with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a love affair with the searing truth of Torah, the revelation of the totality of all existence. By comparison with the clinical coldness of what passes for Judaism in Americas Jewish Community Centers, Christianity, to many, seems to hold a monopoly on spiritual warmth. Trying to silence Christians, for whom Evangelical activism is as central tenet of faith as circumcision is to us, is hardly the answer.
I do think it is important to observe that Judaism and Christianity are two completely separate and incompatible faiths. However we are blessed to live in a country whose Christians do not hate us. Instead, they wish to learn from us and bring greater spiritual authenticity into their own lives. There is no way this can hurt us. The number of churches that hold Passover Seders grows exponentially each year. The number of Christian booksellers that carry in stock books from Artscroll and other Jewish publishers grows each year. What a perfect time to project simultaneous friendship toward our Christian fellow citizens and warm embrace to our alienated Jewish brethren.
Finally, I think we can gain from recognizing that for this blessed little moment of history, we American Jews are living in a splendidly sunny Diaspora. Anyone who thinks that todays American Protestants are indistinguishable from the goyim of Europe is simply ignorant of what life in the streets of European cities is really like. It is also perhaps a shocking example of showing no Hakarat HaTovgratitudefor Gods providence in providing us with friends at a time when we have precious few.
It would surely be astonishingly arrogant to suppose that our small nation should repay good with evil by shunning the hand of friendship extended by American Christians who ask nothing in return. One hundred million Moslems around the world hold little affection for us. Here in America, added to large Muslim immigration, there are many, particularly in our prisons, who are adopting Islam as their faith.
Candor, necessary in times of peril, compels us to admit that the dream of black-Jewish friendship is no more than a fantasy. Only among those who cherish Jewish-Christian friendship based, not on a common theology, but on a shared vision of Americas Biblical blueprint, does one find genuine friendship between African Americans and Jews. Otherwise, elsewhere in America, as Time Magazine polls repeatedly reveal, large pockets of virulent anti-Semitism exist in the black community. The increasingly secular left wing of the Democratic Party and the academic world of the university campus can barely conceal their contempt for Israel and for the religious values so central to our existence. Not a lot of people like us. So now, some in our community actually believe that we ought to go out of our way to reject the friendship of perhaps the only large demographic in America that loves us? Doing so would totally refute all myths of Jewish intelligence. It would also be profoundly immoral.
After WW I the communists condemned the great twentieth century Jewish leader Rabbi Yechezkel Abramsky to a life sentence in the Soviet Gulag. High level diplomatic efforts conducted in great secrecy by the British Government on behalf of Anglo Jewry secured his release in 1933. The Russians immediately expelled him to London, where he became a dayan of the London Beit Din, which is to say, a justice on the supreme Jewish court of the British Empire.
Much later, I attended a public discussion on the Holocaust at which Rabbi Abramsky refuted the notion that anti-Semitism was somehow endemic to Germans. A member of the audience, agreeing, suggested the Holocaust could really have happened anywhere. But he then remembered Rabbi Abramsky's debt of gratitude to the British Government and with sensitivity to the Jewish principle of gratitude, he added, excepting England, of course. And Rabbi Abramsky looked very sadly at the speaker and he said "No, even in England." Before the stunned London audience could recover, Rabbi Abramsky continued "but probably not in America."
Years later, learning at Kol Torah, I often visited with Rabbi Abramsky at his Jerusalem home to where he had retired. More than once I referred back to the London lecture. And I asked him "Why not in America?" He would only smile at me and repeat "No, no, not in America. No, not in America."
I am not saying that things will forever be good. We are in the Galut, even in America. However there is no mitzvah in accelerating bad times. Lets not behave in the foolish ways prohibited by our sages, that, God forbid, could turn friends into enemies and undo Rabbi Abramskys optimistic prophecy.
The End
[Click here to download .pdf version of the above article]
Radio talk show and television program host, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is president of Toward Traditionthe American Alliance of Jews and Christiansa Seattle-based, bridge-building organization providing a voice for all Americans who defend the Judeo-Christian values vital for our nations survival.
For more information or to schedule an interview, please contact: Rachael Whaley (206) 236-3046 www.towardtradition.org
______________________________________
I am very curious to hear your reactions to the Rabbi's essay.
matis
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 29, 2005, 07:12:40 PM
It's very late and I was shutting down for the night as I checked APS one last time, only to find you had posted this.
I will post more commentary tomorrow, but for now, suffice it to say that I am very moved that Rabbi Lapin has spoken exactly what I have tried so hard to say, and I've already bookmarked the Toward Tradition website.
More later,
Fig
Post by: One of Many on November 30, 2005, 06:15:59 AM
Christianity, as taught in the New Testament (and not as perverted by some men), is a religion of sanctity; Christ teaches to sanctify (separate) oneself from sinful thoughts and actions, yet not to remove oneself from the general society. Christianity does not teach tolerance of sin, nor does it teach peace with sin. On the contrary, it teaches that those who strive to please Christ will be persecuted by non-believers; Christians are taught to turn the other cheek when persecuted, not to go on Crusades and to physically destroy the societies and families of the opposition.
Contrast that with the teachings of the muslim religion, which was derived from Judeo-Christian principles. Muslims reject the Divinity of Christ (regard Christ as JUST a Prophet), and hold to the Old-Testament principle of physical destruction of the enemies of God (Infidels). While many proclaim the Muslim religion to be a religion of peace, it historically is shown to be a violent and destructive religion of warfare against those who do not accept it completely. That is similar to the early history of the nation of Israel after the return from Egyptian bondage.
There is a distinction between the Israelites and the Muslims; the Israelites quit conquering other nations by warfare after they occupied the promised lands.
The modern nation of Israel has no connection to the biblical nation of Israel; the geneologies of the Israelites were destroyed during the first century, and all of the people were dispersed after Rome destroyed Jerusalem. The modern Jew has no provable connection to Abraham and Moses; there is only tradition and a belief that they are descended from the blood line that produced the Christ, the Messiah, the promised seed of Abraham. There are no Levitical Priests today, because that required geneology is broken; therefore there are no true worshippers under the Law of Moses today. The annual atonement by the High Priest (required by the Law of Moses) in the Temple of God, has not been performed for centuries. The religion that required the sacrifice on altars of huge numbers of bulls and goats and sheep, which produced rivers of blood, is not practiced today.
Christ removed the necessity of animal sacrifices, since He shed his own sinless blood to pay the price for the sins of all of mankind, each and every sinner; those that believe in Christ and strive to obey Him are covered by that blood, eliminating the obligation to continue sacrificing animals for temporary atonement of sins, as was practiced under the Law of Moses.
Those who, before Christ, were not of the Israelite nation, had a law unto themselves, given by God. There is mention of this in the bible; there is also instruction to Christians, to go to all the world, teaching that salvation is only through Christ. The old laws given by God were replaced by the Law of Christ, when Christ ascended into Heaven to set on the throne of God. Christians will not force others to accept Christ; it is an invitation from God, not a mandate.
Violence is not an approved method for spreading the word of God; those who practice teaching by the sword, delude themselves. This does not preclude self-defense against criminal attack, or defense of country in time of war; these instances are not for the purpose of spreading religious doctrine to non-believers. A true Christian will not commit violence in the name of Christ; they will be persecuted (possibly violently) by others because of the message they promote in an un-godly world.
Jews and Muslims by defintion are not Christians, since they reject the Diety of Christ; they do not adhere to the Christian principle of non-violent dissemination of doctrine. That we in the US have not had severe outbreaks of violence connected to religious belief, is due to the minority status of those who advocate violence, and the strength of the Rule of Law. In those areas of the world where Christianity is the minority, we see religious violence as a routine aspect of life.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 30, 2005, 08:06:07 AM
I have stated earlier, and I will ask again before resorting to involving admins/moderators:
This is not the place to start a 'my deity's better than yours' pissing contest.
As a Christian, I find in particular these statements either totally incorrect, inflammatory, or both:
"Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ."
...In my Bible, Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not sure what you're reading, but you are entitled to your belief.
"The modern nation of Israel has no connection to the biblical nation of Israel; the geneologies of the Israelites were destroyed during the first century, and all of the people were dispersed after Rome destroyed Jerusalem. The modern Jew has no provable connection to Abraham and Moses"
At the core of this is that you totally miss the point of this thread. If you want to cross swords with other faiths and win a debate over who knows the most systematic theology of their respective beliefs, I'm asking that you find another forum, or start another thread with a title like "Let's debate whose deity is best".
The point of THIS thread is that there ARE things (RKBA, love of God, Family, and Country) that we can work mutually to promote without having to convert one another or disrespect each other's religious beliefs.
If you think anybody wants to continue to debate with you, why not putting out an email address so you continue off the forum?
Thanks for understanding.
Fig
Post by: grampster on November 30, 2005, 02:31:35 PM
An opinion that I have held for many years has to do with the fact that the Jews have done in America something that has not happened anywhere else throughout the diaspora: Assimilated. The reason that that has happened is because assimilation has never been threatening here in America as it has elsewhere. One thing is clear. Throughout the diaspora, Jews have remained clannish and have been persecuted. Jews are still clannish (I do not mean this in a bad way at all) in America, as are other groups. But at the same time have blended into the community. It is because as the Reb more aptly than I can explain. No?
Post by: One of Many on November 30, 2005, 04:05:01 PM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
One of Many,
I have stated earlier, and I will ask again before resorting to involving admins/moderators:
...
As a Christian, I find in particular these statements either totally incorrect, inflammatory, or both:
"Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ."
...In my Bible, Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not sure what you're reading, but you are entitled to your belief.
...
If you think anybody wants to continue to debate with you, why not putting out an email address so you continue off the forum?
Thanks for understanding.
Fig
I was not aware that I was debating anyone. My comments were not addressed to anyone in particular, but were intended to provide a point of view that seems to be misunderstood or ignored by most people that CLAIM to be Christians. That you have taken them personally, and THREATENED me with action by admins/moderators, followed by accusing me of making inaccurate and inflammatory statements regarding subject matter that a Christian should be familiar with, just shows your lack of understanding of what being a Christian involves.I have stated earlier, and I will ask again before resorting to involving admins/moderators:
...
As a Christian, I find in particular these statements either totally incorrect, inflammatory, or both:
"Christians teach that Christ was born a Jew, who was the only person to perfectly keep the Law of Moses, and that the Law of Moses was made obsolete by the death and resurrection of Christ."
...In my Bible, Christ came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not sure what you're reading, but you are entitled to your belief.
...
If you think anybody wants to continue to debate with you, why not putting out an email address so you continue off the forum?
Thanks for understanding.
Fig
For your edification, since you challenged my statement regarding the Law of Moses being obsolete.
NASB
Heb 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
I do not intend to get into a verse by verse debate with you or anyone else about what your personal beliefs are. I do not have any problems working with non-Christians, or associating with non-Christians for recreational purposes. I do not go around looking for people to ambush on matters of religion, but when I observe an ongoing discussion pertaining to religious beliefs in an open forum, I expect to be allowed to share my point of view. Since this entire board is intended to be available for non-gun related discussions by people that share an interest in firearms and the shooting sports, why is my post subject to threat of administrative action?
Nothing in my previous posts was intended to disrespect anyone or their personal religious belief. I pointed out what is a common misconception regarding the use of the lable "Christian", when in fact the actions and beliefs being associated with that name are inconsistent with the teachings contained within the Bible. Any true Christian is obligated to do the same. Since much of the previous posting concerned modern Judaism, I pointed out the difference between biblical and modern Judaism; the fact remains that both reject the basic premise of Christianity, that is the Diety of Christ. That does not preclude me or anyone else from associating with someone of differing faith, and giving them the respect due to anyone acting in an honorable manner.
You say that I missed the point of this thread; that it is about the willingness to work together to promote matters of mutual interests. If you will look at the messages that were posted, they discussed how people of different religious beliefs were able to set aside their religious differences to get along without discord and dissention in a secular situation. I do not believe my attempts to clarify common misconceptions concerning the misuse of the "Christian" identifier, when associated with other beliefs, is outside the scope of this thread, for the accurate identification of a belief should be a mutual interest. If you go hunting, you need to know the difference between a Jackass and a Muledeer; if you discuss religion, you need to accurately identify the pertinent belief system.
Since you do not seem to be interested in views that differ from your own, I will abstain from further postings on this thread.
Post by: Antibubba on November 30, 2005, 04:15:23 PM
That article gives me a lot to think about-about prejudice, and about Orthodox Judaism. Can you recommend more readings from Rabbi Lappin?
Post by: matis on November 30, 2005, 04:31:32 PM
I copied this from his .www.towardtradition.org website.
I haven't read any, but am considering Buried Treasure and America's Real War
Hope this helps.
matis
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Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 30, 2005, 05:22:35 PM
Quote from: One of Many
my attempts to clarify common misconceptions concerning the misuse of the "Christian" identifier, when associated with other beliefs, is outside the scope of this thread, for the accurate identification of a belief should be a mutual interest.
Since you do not seem to be interested in views that differ from your own, I will abstain from further postings on this thread.
No threats, just attempting to avoid digressing into hair-splitting scripture-quoting "mine is bigger than yours" behavior, which I have seen happen too many times to count. Since you do not seem to be interested in views that differ from your own, I will abstain from further postings on this thread.
I consider this an important discussion, and I don't think it's up to me to define anybody's beliefs beyond my own. For the purposes of this thread, I think that applies to all of us.
Thanks for tolerating my shortcomings.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 30, 2005, 05:53:02 PM
"American Christians do love Jews and Israel and much of their reason lies in the vision of the Founders who saw America as trying to step under the protective umbrella of Gods covenant with ancient Israel."
...Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.
"Whether by chance or Providence, America was founded at the optimum time in European intellectual history. After Locke, European intellectuals de-Christianized and de-Judaized their political ideas. They abandoned the biblically based foundation of human rights and political liberty for the Godless theories of the Enlightenment, some of which were based on ideas from secular Jews such as Spinoza. This diversion helps explain explains why Europes political development was so differently from Americas and why America has been such a special place for Jews and Christians."
...one thing we haven't mentioned is the way that these very benefits are being threatened, and why it is CRITICAL for us to find common ground and work to protect them.
"It gradually became clear to me why early Americans named their towns and villages after the places in which our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob dwelled. It also became clear to me that their descendants retained complete conviction in the verse from Genesis I will bless those that bless you and those that curse you shall I curse. For them, it provided the reason that God had so obviously blessed the United States of America and would continue to bless this land so long as its citizens continued to bless the descendants of Abraham."
"Which brings us to our neighbors and friends in America today, the Evangelical Right. Do they want to convert us to Christianity? Of course they would like to do so. However what a blessed time we live in when Christians want to convert us with words rather than with guns and knives. We live in a time and place where constitutional guarantees assure us that only words will be used, but we should remember that these guarantees were all derived from the Word of God."
...I have to laugh at how well he knows us! My comments in the early parts of this thread were sort of "out there". Sure, we'd convert you if we could! But short of that, if we don't dismiss each other out of hand, there may be great and strong friendships to be forged.
"You see, some Christians regard Evangelism to be the greatest act of religious fervor. It is unlikely that Jewish opposition will discourage them. Our noisy opposition often comes across as futile blustering and bullying. After all, they too have a long tradition of sacrificing for their faith and wont cease on our account. However we will risk squandering a special friendship that may be Gods gift to us during perilous times."
...careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
"Christian leaders, among them, Reverend Jerry Falwell, have told me that Evangelistic efforts are not effective among practicing religious and Torah educated Jews."
...which speaks volumes for those that DO remain in the faith. As for those who HAVEN'T,...
"They arent rebellious, they are simply ignorant. It is true that they are tragically vulnerable to spiritual seduction."
...I find this to be true of Christian kids, as well. Many are not well grounded in their faith, and so when presented with impressive sounding heresy, they jump in headfirst.
"Their faith was not threatened for a moment. This is because my wife and I made it an absolute priority to introduce our children to God from their earliest years. Each evening we helped them say and understand the pre-Shema prayer, With an abundant love you love us Oh Lord our God. "
He says this in regard to his own kids.
"Train up a child..."
"Our problem is that we have failed to mass market the only ultimately compelling reasons for being Jewish: an infatuation with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a love affair with the searing truth of Torah, the revelation of the totality of all existence."
...I think showing contemporary relevance without compromising the message, taught to one's kids from when they are young is the optimal approach for any of us. Problem comes in trying to make the soccer game, the PTA meeting, the Rotary Club, the Neighborhood/Homeowner's ass'n meeting, maintain a relationship with a spouse, earn a living and have anything of yourself left at the end of the day is a tough gig. Gotta just make the choice to slow down, realize this is no dress rehearsal, and take the time to live one day at a time.
"I do think it is important to observe that Judaism and Christianity are two completely separate and incompatible faiths. However we are blessed to live in a country whose Christians do not hate us. Instead, they wish to learn from us and bring greater spiritual authenticity into their own lives. There is no way this can hurt us. The number of churches that hold Passover Seders grows exponentially each year. The number of Christian booksellers that carry in stock books from Artscroll and other Jewish publishers grows each year. What a perfect time to project simultaneous friendship toward our Christian fellow citizens and warm embrace to our alienated Jewish brethren."
...This is the heart and soul of what we're trying to express here, IMO!
"It would surely be astonishingly arrogant to suppose that our small nation should repay good with evil by shunning the hand of friendship extended by American Christians who ask nothing in return.
Instead, let us celebrate our blessings, living among the best friends we Jews have had anywhere during the past two thousand years and let us so conduct ourselves as a holy nation and a kingdom of priests that our friends say Happy is their Father who gave them the Torah. "
...Bravo! Encore! Where's my Bic lighter? I feel like I need to give a standing ovation with the lighter held high, like I did for all those '70's musicians, way back in the day.
My, how things do change.
Brilliant insights by Rabbi Lapin!
Post by: Strings on November 30, 2005, 06:10:36 PM
Actually, I remember having a religious discussion with a Jew on ship. We were just poking fun at each-other, and he popped the "We're God's Chosen people!". To which I responded "yeah... but chosen for what: designated whipping boys?". I ducked the wadded up napkin at that point...
I've noticed something important about those who are willing to work with people of other faiths: an ability to laugh at themselves and their faith.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 30, 2005, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
I've noticed something important about those who are willing to work with people of other faiths: an ability to laugh at themselves and their faith.
Well said, bro. Mel Brooks has done some pretty funny stuff poking fun at Jews and Christians alike.Ya gotta be a little Meshugga, just to get through life's insanity!
Post by: grampster on November 30, 2005, 07:29:00 PM
I've read your post several times and see nothing threatening or out of order in it. You post what you believe and know to be true. It is, imo, a statement of position. Nothing wrong with that. I did not see any rocks being thrown.
I think our hope here is that we can try and share our beliefs in a fashion that will cause each of us to think about what we know and believe, not necessarily to convince anyone, or ourselves to change our position. Just to help each of us to put into practice our faith which should be a lamp unto the world. The decisions that others make should be based on what is in their hearts and minds. Reason should cause us to come closer together. Faith is a personal thing in which each man is, in fact, an island.
Please stick around.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on November 30, 2005, 08:05:06 PM
If I was hypersensitive about it, it's only because I think this dialog is actually making some inroads into understanding one another without having to change each other. I've been in lots of conversations that went south FAST when someone became dogmatic and unreasonable.
1oM, If I jumped prematurely, or incorrectly, please forgive.
Thanks,
Fig
Post by: grampster on December 01, 2005, 07:33:54 AM
I like the concept of tolerance. That means we never have to accept the other guy's beliefs and dogma, but should be able to tolerate it if it is reasonable. I think that is mostly what being an American is all about. Our culture is one of tolerance.
There are those, however, who wish to shove their dogma or beliefs down our collective throats. I draw the line there. If a man has the opportunity to save or lose his soul, that is, at the end of the day, his decision to make, not yours or mine.
Present your case rationally and in good will. Many has the person changed his ways because of the behavior of another. Talk sometimes is like the harsh clanging of a bell. Actions mean much more. That is the meaning of the dissertaion on Love in the Christian bible. It is not telling someone you love them, it is behaving in that manner.
Post by: Stand_watie on December 01, 2005, 05:47:43 PM
I do agree that there is a vast divide between American "Christians" and European "Christians" regarding Jews and anti-semitism.
I think that anti-semitism in America has largely been from people eager to make a racial distinction between Jews and other white Europeans. In Europe however, the divide has been more religious, and the "Christians" who identify themselves as such are more "Christian" from the perspective of ethnicity than from their religious preference.
Additionally, for at least 100 years, perhaps 200 years, American Christians of the evangelical ilk have identified with the nation of Israel.
Post by: matis on December 01, 2005, 06:53:35 PM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
...one thing we haven't mentioned is the way that these very benefits are being threatened, and why it is CRITICAL for us to find common ground and work to protect them.
Fig, to me that's the whole point!On TFL or THR, for my location I say, I used to think I lived in the USA but now I find myself in the Twilight Zone.
This is almost literally true for me.
In a way, I guess, I deserve this.
ALL of the values and half-baked, destructive ideas I subscribed to in my misspent youth as a left-liberal atheist -- they're ALL coming to pass.
It is a nightmare from which I cannot awaken. There is no way out.
I think a part of me, back then, didn't really believe such things could come about. So I could safely posture that way and thereby show myself to be above the heathen.
Who would have believed that a country that represents what this one does could collapse morally as quickly as it's doing?
Rabbi Lapin says somewhere, I fogot whether it's in this essay -- that the United State is rapidly exhausting its Judeo-Christian fuel. So we can banish religion, support sexual insanity, curtail parental rights, destroy the family -- turn all of the virtues upside down -- and still function. But once the founding values are sufficiently forgotten -- then there will be no limit to the degradation we will fall into. We're well on the way down already.
Until my daughter was born I never worried about this. I can take care of myself. I always land on my feet. So who cares, just have a ball.
But her arrival turned me upside down. I absolutely treasured her (don't most parents?). But how was I going to teach her who she was? How was I going to keep her safe from the rot all around us? One thing led to another and I was forced to realize that my values were part of the problem and not the solution.
She caused me to struggle toward my Judaism. And she forced me to really look at this country and realize how blessed I am to be here and to be able to share it with her.
But just a I was coming to my senses, I saw that what I had finally came to appreciate, was falling apart before my eyes.
Somehow I did the seemingly impossible. She and her mother (my ex) are ultra-Orthodox Jews and live as much as is possible within this community. So they're "safe".
But not really. Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe. It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.
Quote
...I have to laugh at how well he knows us! My comments in the early parts of this thread were sort of "out there". Sure, we'd convert you if we could! But short of that, if we don't dismiss each other out of hand, there may be great and strong friendships to be forged.
Yes, he know us. And I cannot help thinking that we Jews cannot turn it around without the Christians. And vice-versa. And battle forges tight bonds between the soldiers.Quote
...which speaks volumes for those that DO remain in the faith. As for those who HAVEN'T,...
"Train up a child..."
I guess you're just not enlightened, Fig. Don't you know that the fairest way is to withhold moral teaching from the child. Not fair to IMPOSE our ideas and values on him. When he is grown, he will chose for himself. And and along the way, we'll even solicit his opinion on issues -- while he's in grammer and high school -- (as if he knows anything)."Train up a child..."
This IS the way today, isn't it?
I call that child abuse. Child abandonment.
Just like we don't teach religion and morals in the schools. Separation of church and state, you know. Population too diverse. Create a vacuum and then be surprised when rot rushes in to fill it.
Quote
...Bravo! Encore! Where's my Bic lighter? I feel like I need to give a standing ovation with the lighter held high ...
Yep, pretty much how I felt.matis
Post by: richyoung on December 02, 2005, 05:18:16 AM
Quote
But not really. Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe. It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.
A modest proposal: Evangelical Christians will pray for those Jews who "missed" the Messiah the first time around, and stop spouting nonsense like "God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews" - Jews will pray for those of us Gentiles that "fell for a false Messiah", but who are otherwise "rightous Gentiles", and give Christians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intentions. In the meantime, we BOTH get busy plugging the leaks and bailing out the sinking boat society is in.
Post by: matis on December 02, 2005, 06:14:10 AM
Quote from: richyoung
Quote
But not really. Unless the slide of our country can somehow be stopped, no one is safe. It's hard to be civilized living in the jungle.
A modest proposal: Evangelical Christians will pray for those Jews who "missed" the Messiah the first time around, and stop spouting nonsense like "God doesn't hear the prayers of Jews" - Jews will pray for those of us Gentiles that "fell for a false Messiah", but who are otherwise "rightous Gentiles", and give Christians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to intentions. In the meantime, we BOTH get busy plugging the leaks and bailing out the sinking boat society is in.Where's the bailer?
matis
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 02, 2005, 06:27:22 AM
THAT'S the hard part, I know. But, I also know that there ARE more of us, there needs to be some kind of...
Rallying Point? Source for info, position statement, and so on?
Sort of an expansion of Rabbi Lapin's perspective, only maybe a search for the same kind of perspective from the Goyim? Or a more centrist, "this is not Christian or Jew, this is a group of people who love Freedom, God, Family and Country, and wish to protect, preserve, and promote our ability to live according to these shared values, and worship in our individually chosen ways.
No?
Post by: Strings on December 02, 2005, 08:07:55 AM
In a nutshell, any formal "group formation" would probably be a bad idea. However, if we ddecide to actually try getting a movement going, I'll be linking this post to quite a few locations...
Post by: grampster on December 02, 2005, 09:35:03 AM
I don't think we need to argue about Messiah. Those of us who are Christians should remain strong in our faith. Ditto for the Jews. At the end of the day g-d will sort it out. We are both His children.
I believe exactly what Jesus said, that it is through Him that we reach the Father. How that is accomplished may not be part of the present revelation. I'm content in that I know the Jews have never been totally rejected by g-d, so it's pointless for me to do what He has not. So why not join forces. We have seen how much good that has wrought over the last couple hundred years. Is that not worthing keeping?
Post by: Strings on December 02, 2005, 09:49:56 AM
Umm... because there are some aspects (granted, they usually show up in those that don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, but profess to) of "Judaeo/Christian culture" that I, as a pagan, can't accept?
I'm with ya to a point. But almost every time I've heard "Judaeo/Christian culture" (or just "Christian culture"), it's been a 'thumper trying to shove his religion down my throat. While I will give my life to defend your right to your beliefs, I expect the courtesy to mine.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 02, 2005, 10:20:08 AM
I think we've stated the goals of this "movement"; conservatism, and allegiance to RKBA, God, family, and country.
If you're cool with that, (and I think you are) you have my sincere respect and you're welcome.
Quote from: HunterRose
you're talking about forming a group that would be getting shot from every side. The liberals would hang us for mentioning God, the "Christian Right" would raise Hell about y'all "consorting with Jews and heathens". Etc, etc...
What was the quote from the Two Towers by Gimli? High Chance of death, little chance of success...what are we waiting for? Fig
Post by: grampster on December 02, 2005, 10:47:59 AM
Please don't misinterpret. I'm not trying to shove anything (except maybe a chocolate covered donut, mmmmm) down anyone's throat. I believe we as humans have more in common than we think, regardless of some of our beliefs. We need to spend more time sorting through those and helping to keep things moving along smoothly. As a pagan you shouldn't be any more suspicious of my motives than I am of yours; and I am not. America is supposed to be the place of tolerance. If that is true, mutual goals certainly are possible.
I think this conversation we are having is trying to promote that mutual respect. I for one value your opinions and comradeship regarding those things that we hold mutualy. Because we may believe in some other fashion in the spiritual sense allows for both of us to be able to broaden our perspectives. You might find out that all Christians are not looking to burn you at the stake, and I might learn that eating children is not a pastime that you find edifying.
Post by: richyoung on December 02, 2005, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
ok...being a pessimist for just a second here: you're talking about forming a group that would be getting shot from every side. The liberals would hang us for mentioning God,
...this country is about freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM EXPOSURE to religion. Other than legalizing drugs and butting out of the bedroom, I've little in common with the libs anyway...Quote
the "Christian Right" would raise Hell about y'all "consorting with Jews and heathens". Etc, etc...
...as a member of the "Christian Right", I can assure that American Evangelicals, for the most part:1. Support the State of Israel.
2. Consider ourselves "grafted onto the tree of life" that the Jews were always a part of.
3. Are admonished not to gloat or otherwise demean Jews, because if WE, as "wild olive branches" are "grafted onto the tree of life", then how easy is it for US to be removed, and "tame olive branches, (Jews)" grafted back in out place?
4. Know that without Judaism, there would be no Christianity.
5. Have nothing but respect and honor for GGod's Chosen People.
6. Beleive that Jesus was the Messiah, and that "No man comes before the Father but through Me" - certainly He can interceed for Jews if He chooses to - he was a Rabbi, after all...
7. Will proselytize ANYONE given the chance - however, most of us know that the time and place has to be right, and most of us know that "Turn or burn" tactics are not effective at winning hearts or souls. After all, "No man comes unto Me, but that the Spirit moves him..."
Post by: richyoung on December 02, 2005, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>reinforce our Judaeo/Christian heritage that made our country great and unique<
Umm... because there are some aspects (granted, they usually show up in those that don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, but profess to) of "Judaeo/Christian culture" that I, as a pagan, can't accept?
Like what?Umm... because there are some aspects (granted, they usually show up in those that don't actually follow the teachings of Christ, but profess to) of "Judaeo/Christian culture" that I, as a pagan, can't accept?
Quote
I'm with ya to a point. But almost every time I've heard "Judaeo/Christian culture" (or just "Christian culture"), it's been a 'thumper trying to shove his religion down my throat. While I will give my life to defend your right to your beliefs, I expect the courtesy to mine.
Like it or not, you live in a society founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs. While you may regard it as "shoving his religion down my throat", (and I agree many of my compatriots can have more enthusiam than tact or skill in this area), perhaps you might find it easier to tolerate if consider that the "shover" is genuinely convinved thatyou are in peril, and is trying to save your eternal soul. I can see how that can be aggrevating at times, especially if one holds radically different views. But be honored that they cared enough about you to try.
Post by: Strings on December 03, 2005, 12:13:20 AM
Grampster and all: as INDIVIDUALS, I trust y'all: as much as I trust my Brothers and Sisters, which is saying alot. However, I've had 'thumpers make serious threats, as have many other pagans. So, when the average pagan hears "Christian values", we remember the 'thumpers (bad memories always stick better than good).
I follow where you're going with this, and so far agree with what you're saying. However, PACKAGING your message will turn away many people, because of bad experiances...
Post by: Antibubba on December 03, 2005, 02:51:40 AM
Now that the Jews are no longered considered the scapegoats, maybe we can call Pagans "The New Jews"!
Post by: Strings on December 03, 2005, 08:33:49 AM
I know it does. I just thought I should point out that talking about "Christian culture" WILL make some people back away...
And no,I don't have an alternative. Unless we want to talk about "American Values", which could be it's own can of worms. Really, *I* don't care what we call it, so long as we're people motivated to save our society from sliding into the abyss...
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 03, 2005, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
I just thought I should point out that talking about "Christian culture" WILL make some people back away...
Including ME! The Crusades, The Inquisition, Christian Identity/KKK, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, God Hates Fags,
...I could go on.
MANY things I am SO ashamed of...NOT that "Christians" have done these things...
But that sorely misguided, downright EVIL people have done these things while apropriating the name of G-d and Jesus as the reason they were doing what they did...
The Creator did not guide these people to do these things.
He's still Da Man. The High Rama Lama.
Just because stupid &/or evil people use his name to claim right motives for their actions, doesn't give them ANY legitimacy. It also doesn't indict the Creator, just because stupid &/or evil people...
Et Cetera, Ad infinitum.
Post by: Strings on December 03, 2005, 11:13:47 PM
I'll again quote my Sikh friend: "God is One, and we are ALL His children". One day, I'll scan the image and post it somewhere...
Post by: richyoung on December 05, 2005, 06:09:46 AM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
*sigh*
Grampster and all: as INDIVIDUALS, I trust y'all: as much as I trust my Brothers and Sisters, which is saying alot. However, I've had 'thumpers make serious threats, as have many other pagans. So, when the average pagan hears "Christian values", we remember the 'thumpers (bad memories always stick better than good).
I follow where you're going with this, and so far agree with what you're saying. However, PACKAGING your message will turn away many people, because of bad experiances...
My sincere appologies - I hadn no idea someone could be so misguided as to think that such behavior would be an effective evangalization method, or even acceptable among civilized folk. Definately NOT what Jesus would do, IMHO.Grampster and all: as INDIVIDUALS, I trust y'all: as much as I trust my Brothers and Sisters, which is saying alot. However, I've had 'thumpers make serious threats, as have many other pagans. So, when the average pagan hears "Christian values", we remember the 'thumpers (bad memories always stick better than good).
I follow where you're going with this, and so far agree with what you're saying. However, PACKAGING your message will turn away many people, because of bad experiances...
Rich
Post by: Strings on December 05, 2005, 09:53:27 AM
If we get something started here, with multiple faiths working together to fix the problems in this country, you all will be yelled at for associating with "heathens". And I'll get yelled at for dealing with "Jesus-Freaks". Part of the trick to pulling this off is learning how to deal with the bigots (and teaching others NOT to be bigots)...
Post by: One of Many on December 05, 2005, 12:33:46 PM
A better questions is; What DID Jesus do?
Jesus taught a doctrine that had the religious leaders of the day so angry, that they conspired to commit murder, and induced people to perjure themselves in order to accomplish that murder (Jesus was murdered on the cross at Calvary). Was that a teachng by Jesus of tolerance for dissenting religious beliefs? I don't think so. Jesus condemned the religious teachers of the day, comparing them to Satan. He told his followers; Do not cast your pearls before swine (meaning that some people would never accept the word of God, and perform acts of obedience).
Jesus assaulted the moneychangers in the temple, and drove them out with sticks. Was that a teachng of tolerance for criminal or dissenting religious actions? I don't think so.
A person who is trapped in false doctrines will never be converted as long as that person's belief is tolerated, and not challenged. A person has to be convinced (usually against their will) that they are not acceptable to God, before they will give up ways that seem good to them, but fail to please God.
If what you are interested in is acceptance and harmony of purpose, you must agree to ignore (or accept without challenge) religious beliefs, and concentrate on secular issues. That is how we happen to get along with fellow employees at our places of business, and how we get along in our recreational endeavors. A common rule of getting along is to not discuss certain issues, such as religion and politics.
It is possible to discuss relgious doctrines in an unchallenging way for purposes of learning the differences in various doctrines, but that knowlege is useless if not later utilized for the purpose of converting persons of differing belief.
If a person never tries to teach others what his faith is, either by word or deed, he is worthless as far as God is concerned, and will suffer eternal punishment.
This country was founded to provide a nation where all religious doctrines were tolerated by the government, and none were banned (essentially a secular nation - not a Christian Nation as so many claim); there is no such thing as the commonly referred to "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution - there is only a rule that the government will not "establish" a religion by showing favoritism to any religious doctrines or organizations. We work together in the national sense, to make this nation stronger, by ignoring the religious aspect (how do we please God) when we pass laws, using instead the concept of morality (which every religion has) and ethics to determine what is acceptable conduct for the people of this land.
Every Good person recognizes that murder, assault and rape, robbery, false witness and lying, cheating and defrauding, etc. is wrong and needs to incur punishment. The problem is in dealing with the severity of the consequences, and the subtlety of the distinctions we are faced with today. An example of this problem is the issue of abortion. People of strong religious conviction who believe that abortion is murder, are referred to as "Kooks and Nuts from the Religious Right". Those that favor abortion on demand for convenience of the mother, think that the child is not alive, so it is not murder.
Scientifically, there is no defintion of when Human life begins, even though laws have been written to protect the life of non-human species before they are fully born (or hatched). The US Supreme Court ruled in Roe V Wade that some abortion is legal, because they could not determine when Human life begins (there was a failure to reach consensus between the religious and scientific consultants the Court used). The condition of protecting the mother from physical or emotional harm caused by carrying the child to the point of birth, was the basis the Court used for allowing abortion. As the years have gone by, we have seen the restrictions lifted to the point where it is now acceptable to have a child aborted when there is no danger at all to the mother; that is why there are so many challenges being brought to the court on this issue.
My own perspective on abortion is that it is too easy; there needs to be a rigorous process to determine if the death of the child is more important than the risks to the mother of delivering the child at the end of term.
There are other contentious issues that divide the country. Some of these involve the right to self-defense, because deadly force is often a part of defending oneself from violent attack (this is related in an obscure way to the matter of abortion - right to life). A part of this conflict is the issue of dependency vs. personal responsibility; do we do the dirty work ourselves, or hire someone (police/military) to kill in our defense. Those whose religion does not allow them to defend their own life from lethal attack, often do not seem to concern themselves with the thought that they are paying someone in a uniform (police/military) to possibly kill an attacker in their defense.
There is a time and place for accepting/tolerating people of differing religious beliefs, and a time and place for challenging those same people because of their beliefs. The problem is knowing which time and place we are in, and thus which action is appropriate.
Post by: grampster on December 05, 2005, 01:59:19 PM
Very interesting thoughts. I agree in principal with most of what you say. Although I seem to favor expressing my religious beliefs by deeds rather than with my mouth, I have been disturbed enough by "street preachers" to check out what they were saying. I once risked arrest by defending a street preacher who was set upon by a shop keeper who was lying to a policeman about what the street preacher was up to. I gave the preacher my card and told him I would testify in his behalf if he went to court. I actually did not approve of his methods. He missed the opportunity to perhaps effect some creature that needed the truth by being obnoxious and annoying in his demeanor. He spoke truth, but how he spoke it was not effective. It's too bad because had he used joy as a tool rather than anger, he may have been more effective. I'll never know that in this life, however.
The old adage, "Actions speak louder than words" may, imho, cause folks to wonder about a person. That may lead to conversation that portends core shaking decisions.
Oddly, I came to be a believer by being confronted by a prospective client. But I was already on a self started mission to find what I was all about. Personal misbehavior set me on this mission. Had I not been in the position I was, that confrontation may not have gone anywhere. I'll never know.
The Christian bible tells us to be a "lamp unto the world" and to not "cover that lamp up." (I paraphrase) The imagery is about behavior in my opinion. We are also blessed with different talents. The key is to find what it is. It may not be what we want it to be.
Somehow, I think that if a person is truly seeking God, he will find Him. There is a "cloud of witnesses" round and about. Maybe if we, each of us, put a little more joy into our faith, that witness alone might attract. Confrontation and angrily denouncing another's beliefs may work at times. It is not for me, however. Christ was angry with sin and he took action. At other times he was docile in the face of it. He went willingly to His death because He knew it was required. He didn't want to face the horror of it, as He knew what was required of Him. He was obedient, nonetheless. By HIS stripes we were healed. I don't think applying more stripes will have any more effect, as it is completed.
While we're on the subject of His death, it is wrong to blame Jews today for the necessary, prophetic actions of a few at the time. For all you and I know, the ones that cried the loudest for his death, repented before they passsed. "With God all things are possible". We are accountable personally for our beliefs and acts. It is wrong for Christians to be berating, hating or disparaging Jews. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." "Do not judge lest you be judged in the same way you have judged others." Contrary to popular myth, we are not called to not judge, but rather, if we do, we need to be very careful as the same standards we use will be applied to us.
I guess I'd be more inclined to become a friend first when I meet a new aquaintance. At some point perhaps my behavior will cause a question, if he or she is not already a brother or sister.
Enough out of me.
Post by: Strings on December 05, 2005, 04:05:18 PM
Preaching "Jesus loves you!" is a good marketing tool. Preaching "Jesus loves you, even though you're an abomination" is a good fight starter. Some need to learn the difference...
And yes, I HAVE seen both used...
Now I think I'll lurk on this thread for awhile, and see if things can get beyond "my God's better than yours!"
Post by: Antibubba on December 05, 2005, 05:58:21 PM
Post by: grampster on December 05, 2005, 07:21:29 PM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 06, 2005, 07:04:21 AM
No one is asking you to accept another's credo or doctrine.
What I am asking is that we find common ground in advancing RKBA, and loving God, Family, and Country.
As we do so in a polite way, we *may* (some will, some won't) want to learn more about one another's closely held beliefs, as matis, grampster, HunterRose and I have done.
Others may be militant in their beliefs and unwilling to entertain/suffer the other fellow's beliefs. If that is you, then IGNORE, don't feel you have to CORRECT the rest of us.
It's all a part of taking The High Road.
Fig the self-appointed hall monitor
Post by: One of Many on December 06, 2005, 07:17:05 AM
Christians taught of a Heavenly Kingdom (spiritual - not worldly), led by the "King of Kings" who was lord over all nations. The leaders of the nations misinterpreted this to mean that a worldly war was being waged against their control over the nations they headed, and tried to destroy as many Christians as they could. Christ told his followers to "turn the other cheek" when they were persecuted for his name's sake, not for them to take up arms and overthrow their secular leaders.
People confuse the Crusades of the European middle ages with a "Christian" holy war. This was not a war for Christ, it was a war to expand the power of the Vatican, which is headed by the usurper that many refer to as the "antichrist". The Catholic church is the result of a great apostasy from the teachings of Christ, which led to the creation of a political organization disguised as a religion, headed by a man that claims to be "the infallible word of God on earth". A man that sets himself up as the "Holy Father" (Pope - a variant of Papa - the English word is father) to millions of worshippers all over the earth. Jesus used the phrase "Holy Father" once when he was praying to God, and referred to God the Father numerous times.
Christ taught his followers, regarding spriritual matters:
Mat 23:8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
Mat 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
The teachings of Christ and the apostles organizes the Church into local units (and only local units), headed by men referred to as the "Elders" of the congregation, and assisted by other men referred to as "Deacons", all of whom must meet stringent qualifications to be entrusted with the responsibility of leading the congregation in accordance with the word of God. Even with these qualifications being met, the bible teaches us that these men may fall into error and lead their flocks astray; they are certainly not infallible.
The Catholic church is not the only religious entity to appropriate the glory of God by assuming titles for men that are reserved for God. The common use of the term "Reverend" when associated with a Protestant denominational preacher is also an usurpation against God. God is the only being to be revered, and the only being to be so referred to in the scriptures.
Any religious group that names itself after the man that founded it, or a nation that sponsors it, or a doctrine that was created by man, is not giving glory to God the Father or to Jesus the Christ. How can any man, or religious group, steal the glory due to Christ and God, and pass themselves off as "Christians"?
There have been many abominations done by men and countries, purportedly in the name of God (or Christ), that caused confusion and resentment against God by those victimized by those abominable acts. When people teach or perform actions in the name of Christ or God, they should limit themselves to what God has taught his people. To do otherwise is to blaspheme the name of God and Christ.
People of differing religious faith can work together to accomplish a lot of good in the worldy sense, because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual message, that affects how people interact with each other during our mortal life. Christians as individuals are taught to be responsible for their families, to work and provide for their welfare, and to be compassionate to those in need. The work of the church is to spread the message of salvation through Jesus Christ, not to provide food and clothing, medicines and housing for anyone with their hand out. The church is to take care of its own widows and orphans, not those of the world. Individual Christians can (and do) contribute to needy individuals and to secular organizations that provide assistance to the needy.
Most people misunderstand what the term "Christian" means, because they have seen so many examples of words and acts performed under the color of "Christianity" that have nothing to do with what Christ taught.
Post by: Antibubba on December 07, 2005, 09:48:54 AM
Fig, you're right-we've been going off topic, so let me try to head it back with this:
We are defenders of the 2nd amendment, of the RKBA. But as the framers pointed out, the Constitution does not grant the right, it merely puts G-d's law into a legally applicable format, so that all may understand it. The right to defend one's life, family, and property from both thugs and rulers. A law that recognizes the difference between murder and self defense.
But not all of G-d's laws are equal. Knowing that an armed citizenry will save lives and lessen crime, would the Rabbi be permitted to eat ham and lobster for a month if doing so would absolutely guarantee that a law permitting every American to carry outside the house would be enacted? Not just permitted, but encouraged, because keeping Kosher is a lesser law than saving a life. Only three Jewish laws are absolute: One must not commit murder, one must not deny G-d, and one must not eat human flesh. Every other law broken can be forgiven under some circumstance.
One must not commit murder, and thus it would be just as serious to allow a murder to take place. Allowing a person to prevent his own murder, or someone elses, thus can be seen as one of the highest devotions to G-d that man can make.
For us to form and thrive as an ecunemical (dare I say diverse?) group committed to preserving and expanding this particular aspect of G-d's law, each one of us must find where they rank RKBA. As an evangelical you may be opposed to Gay Pagans, but can you put it in the "Time Out" corner long enough to work with a "Pink Rifles for Hermes" member on overturning a restrictive gun law? And by putting it aside, I mean not stating every five minutes that you oppose homosexuality and Satanic practices and that he is surely going to go to Hell, but you're glad that he "get's" the gun thing. Can the pagan set aside his resentment of being mistreated in High School by "Holier-than-thou" football players to not mention the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials? Can an Orthodox Jew accept a refusal by a "Vegans with VPERs" member to try his mother's brisket?
If you regard RKBA as one of G-d's highest laws, you will find a way. If you cannot, then someone will not participate-either you or the object of your moral lessons.As an example of my own levels of tolerance, I could not work with a white supremicist or a Neo-Nazi-I simply could not let it go. I might be able to work with someone from Nation of Islam because, although the philosophies are equally repugnant, the N of I didn't kill six million of my people.
So can we agree to disagree on everything else and work together to defend RKBA?
Post by: Guest on December 07, 2005, 10:27:55 AM
Fig - back on topic
I still contend there is a difference in "Religion" and "Spirituality" , still say it comes from within. Includes those persons aganostic, or athesitic - those too are 'belief systems' .
Not discounting anyone's belief system - just food for thought. Everyone to some degree veers off what ever belief system they have. Human nature.
RKBA: Well here is a true story, lady is now dead, customer of mine. She was a little girl, when her family fled Germany using an Oxcart. They grabbed all they could, and what they needed. Jews with Russian heritage. They sold / bartered possessions to survive, silverware, went first, before it was all over , to have food and survive - they sold most all except the clothes, and one small handgun. Her mother bartered her wedding ring for that gun. They had to have 'funds for passage ( best she recalls) and her daddy had sold all his guns, even the one little handgun he kept back. Seems it was worth the risk to not get caught, especially with a gun. Just somehow they came across another gun to obtain, the wedding band that had been in family was bartered.
This lady , Russian Jew, her mom cut her hair really short and wanted her to look like a boy so as to not attract attention, her mom did the same to herself. She remembers crying at the hair on the ground,she cried at her mom's appearance, she cried at her own reflection.
This Lady became a doctor, she was an avid supporter of RKBA, she and her family survived, one night the Bad Men tried to hurt "the three males" ( Dad and the mom and daughter looking like boys) - her mom shot one of the Bad Men - the others ran away.
"We could not practice what we believed except in speaking to our inner self, we had nothing of our Faith to practice with, we just had to flee and survive".
They dealt with other cultures, other belief systems to survive, never lost faith, just had to do what they had to to survive. She was really young, she was told in later years more things for clarity and some things she kept private - I respected that. What stood out - was folks with differences fought side by side to survive.
Often forgotten in today's society, often forgotten in dealing with RKBA as well.
Post by: grampster on December 07, 2005, 10:31:24 AM
Well said. I think you hit the nail squarely on the head with how our breed of ecumenicalism should work. We are all very oriented toward the rule of law as defined by our Constitution. We are Americans and we realize that the rule of law will not work unless we participate in its upholding. As Americans we should come together to defend our way of life, while at the same time respecting, as much as is possible for each of us, the views of our compatriots as they apply to other areas of our lives.
+1.
Post by: One of Many on December 07, 2005, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: Antibubba
...
We are defenders of the 2nd amendment, of the RKBA. But as the framers pointed out, the Constitution does not grant the right, it merely puts G-d's law into a legally applicable format, so that all may understand it. The right to defend one's life, family, and property from both thugs and rulers. A law that recognizes the difference between murder and self defense.
...
So can we agree to disagree on everything else and work together to defend RKBA?
This is why the US military instituted the "don't ask - don't tell" policy regarding homosexuality in the ranks of the service. As long as the service people can perform their assigned tasks, without their personal beliefs or lifestyle becoming an obstacle to achieving the goals of the organization, all is well. When those beliefs or actions compromise the purpose of the organization, then it becomes a problem requiring removal of the offensive parties, so everyone else can focus on the stated goal.We are defenders of the 2nd amendment, of the RKBA. But as the framers pointed out, the Constitution does not grant the right, it merely puts G-d's law into a legally applicable format, so that all may understand it. The right to defend one's life, family, and property from both thugs and rulers. A law that recognizes the difference between murder and self defense.
...
So can we agree to disagree on everything else and work together to defend RKBA?
When I joined NRA and state level organizations, I did not ask about the personal beliefs of the other members, regarding any other political or religious or personal matter. I don't want to know those things, so I don't have my focus shifted from the common purpose of protecting all of our rights to purchase, own, possess, carry and use tools that are necessary for our personal and common defense against criminals and corrupt government agents. When it comes to RKBA I don't need or want to know your religion, your ethnicity, your sexuality or any other personal matter. All I need to know is that you are a law abiding person in good standing (not a criminal, fugitive, or a mentally unstable person) within society, and you support RKBA.
It is impossible to avoid having extremist on any matter of importance, and those points of view are necessary to bring full understanding to bear on the issues. Think of the "Bell Curve" in mathematics that describes the natural distribution of many processes. There is a far right aspect and a far left aspect, with the majority being very close to the center of the distribution of values.
For RKBA to succeed, we need to work to ensure that the center of the distribution of popular opinion on RKBA issues is close to the position we have staked out and claimed ownership of. That involves educating the general populace, and the elected officials, so that those positions are in close proximity to each other; they don't have to perfectly align for us to succeed.
Including extraneous issues just confuses the matter and makes it harder to reach concensus. Think of additional issues as converting the bell curve from a two dimensional curve to a three dimensional curve (look at it from the top, and it changes from a single line to a series of lines at different angles, without a common center). Each additional issue causes more of the general population to fall into an extreme of one or more issues.
Another way of looking at this is to draw overlapping circles, with different center points and sizes, representing the central portion of the bell curve for each issue. With every additional issue, there is less of an overlap of the circles, which means less of the population agrees on the important matter at hand. That is why RKBA is hurt when people separate us on the issues of trap, skeet, "assault" rifles, long range riflery ("sniper" rifles), target pistol, self defense pistol, sport hunting, subsistance hunting, collecting, etc. We need to get all firearms owners working together to support each others aspect of firearms use; extraneous issues such as religion or politics just makes it more difficult, if not impossible. Don't ask and Don't tell about anything unrelated to firearms, if you want success on RKBA.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 07, 2005, 12:32:52 PM
Quote from: One of Many
Including extraneous issues just confuses the matter and makes it harder to reach concensus. Think of additional issues as converting the bell curve from a two dimensional curve to a three dimensional curve (look at it from the top, and it changes from a single line to a series of lines at different angles, without a common center). Each additional issue causes more of the general population to fall into an extreme of one or more issues.
Another way of looking at this is to draw overlapping circles, with different center points and sizes, representing the central portion of the bell curve for each issue. With every additional issue, there is less of an overlap of the circles, which means less of the population agrees on the important matter at hand. That is why RKBA is hurt when people separate us on the issues of trap, skeet, "assault" rifles, long range riflery ("sniper" rifles), target pistol, self defense pistol, sport hunting, subsistance hunting, collecting, etc. We need to get all firearms owners working together to support each others aspect of firearms use; extraneous issues such as religion or politics just makes it more difficult, if not impossible. Don't ask and Don't tell about anything unrelated to firearms, if you want success on RKBA.
One, where we are missing each other is in thinking that the intent here is to make this dialog an all-inclusive outgrowth of the NRA membership (or GOA or JPFO or whatever). This dialog may never go any further than the few of us involved here; or, it may become a "movement" that becomes a groundswell that becomes a whole new, powerful wave of civic and spiritual activism born out of our common goals.Another way of looking at this is to draw overlapping circles, with different center points and sizes, representing the central portion of the bell curve for each issue. With every additional issue, there is less of an overlap of the circles, which means less of the population agrees on the important matter at hand. That is why RKBA is hurt when people separate us on the issues of trap, skeet, "assault" rifles, long range riflery ("sniper" rifles), target pistol, self defense pistol, sport hunting, subsistance hunting, collecting, etc. We need to get all firearms owners working together to support each others aspect of firearms use; extraneous issues such as religion or politics just makes it more difficult, if not impossible. Don't ask and Don't tell about anything unrelated to firearms, if you want success on RKBA.
But it is NOT meant to redefine RKBA, or force a certain flavor or brand of spirituality onto 'gun people'.
I am learning what "this" is as we continue to talk. My initial thought was that active, practising Christians and Jews who also see themselves as having a stake in supporting 2nd Amendment rights might come together to honor one another's traditions while advancing the mutual goals.
It has already grown beyond that, as Hunter Rose has taught me that this may even include pagans or other religions who share those basic political goals and personal priorities.
I don't think I personally have the vision or ability to materialize something out of this; maybe together, we do, if it's meant to be. It may just need to be something gotten off our collective chests, and nothing more. We'll see how things progress, and what ideas are brought forth.
Fig
Post by: richyoung on December 08, 2005, 04:55:13 AM
Post by: Strings on December 08, 2005, 03:49:55 PM
Ok... am I the only one disturbed by this mental image?
That's actually a point that someone tried to make around here (NE WI) about Pink Pistols: they're an ally we need, that can make the liberal Dems stop and think. Unfirtunately, the local shooters get so caught up in the whole "abomination in the eyes of the Lord" thing...
Post by: matis on December 08, 2005, 05:16:19 PM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>I would gladly wear a prom dress to a "Pink Rifles for Hermes" fundraiser<
Ok... am I the only one disturbed by this mental image?
That's actually a point that someone tried to make around here (NE WI) about Pink Pistols: they're an ally we need, that can make the liberal Dems stop and think. Unfirtunately, the local shooters get so caught up in the whole "abomination in the eyes of the Lord" thing...
Hunter Rose, there may be no way to reconcile this. Are you aware that by your words which I bolded in your quote above, YOU are trivializing the beliefs of Christians and Jews?Ok... am I the only one disturbed by this mental image?
That's actually a point that someone tried to make around here (NE WI) about Pink Pistols: they're an ally we need, that can make the liberal Dems stop and think. Unfirtunately, the local shooters get so caught up in the whole "abomination in the eyes of the Lord" thing...
G-d is the Creator and the Master of the universe. He is so far above us that we (Jews) dare not say his name. Our word for G-d in Hebrew is Hashem. This means, literally, the name.
So you're suggesting that we disobey the Master by overlooking what he said: that homosexuality is an abomination?
I MAY be willing to co-operate with PInk Pistols on defending the 2nd amendment, but that depends on how this would play out. What good is preserving the 2nd amendment at the cost of destroying belief in the G-d whose people developed the culture that undergirds all of western civilization -- including the 2nd amendment?
And how do you know that to some of us, this life-style is not a abomination on a personal level?
matis
Post by: Strings on December 08, 2005, 05:48:30 PM
Yes, but I'm allowed: I trivialize the beliefs of EVERY religion (with the exception of Budhism), ESPECIALLY my own. Of course, mine having more than it's share of granola, I can't help BUT trivialize them at times...
>G-d is the Creator and the Master of the universe. He is so far above us that we (Jews) dare not say his name. Our word for G-d in Hebrew is Hashem. This means, literally, the name.<
Which is your view. I even remember taking an oath to defend your right to have that view...
>So you're suggesting that we disobey the Master by overlooking what he said: that homosexuality is an abomination?<
Not really. however, when we're trying to push for legislation that has nothing to do with religion (RKBA), can people tone down the fire and brimstone? Or better yet: you're Jewish. Would a Jew in Nazi Germany have been wrong to preserve himself by hiding with homosexuals, or vice-versa?
>I MAY be willing to co-operate with PInk Pistols on defending the 2nd amendment, but that depends on how this would play out. What good is preserving the 2nd amendment at the cost of destroying belief in the G-d whose people developed the culture that undergirds all of western civilization -- including the 2nd amendment?<
Wow. I see this and read "I MAY be willing to use an effective tool against the antis...". Is that the case? Personally, I keep asbestos gloves handy for those timesthe Devil's hand must be shaken for the greater good...
>And how do you know that to some of us, this life-style is not a abomination on a personal level?<
Fine... to a point. When you decide to start forcing that view on others, it becomes an issue. Personally, when you refuse to utilize such a group (which could SERIOUSLY undermine Dem support of anti agendas), it seems you're cutting your nose off to spite your face. 'Course, that's just my humble (and irreverant) opinion. And there's still that pesky oath I mentioned above...
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 08, 2005, 06:38:48 PM
Once again, I can see both perspectives.
Once again, I'm so proud of the class you guys are showing in discussing this.
I'm honored to call you my friends.
Fig
Post by: grampster on December 08, 2005, 06:48:35 PM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 08, 2005, 07:36:54 PM
Kum Ba Yah...
Post by: Strings on December 08, 2005, 07:39:21 PM
Then don't do it, gramps!
Post by: grampster on December 08, 2005, 07:56:03 PM
Post by: Strings on December 08, 2005, 07:59:47 PM
Post by: grampster on December 08, 2005, 09:07:02 PM
Post by: Strings on December 08, 2005, 09:35:10 PM
THAT, more than anything else, has ALWAYS bothered me: how can you follow a religion that says you (personally) are an abomination? It just does NOT make sense to me...
Ok... I REALLY have to get sleep...
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 09, 2005, 06:55:21 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
People who give me bigoted and ignorant babble on any topic are annoying to me and often end up occupying my thoughts on how to damage their faces "accidentally". I can't afford to have people like that on "my side".
Well, perhaps with some age and experience, you'll learn to be less intolerant and closed-minded.
Post by: richyoung on December 09, 2005, 07:15:43 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
I would note that we do not live in a country governed by the religious laws of the bible, and that it was not founded to be a christian nation.\
If you can't see the Biblical origins for both our system of government, ("You don't need a king over you - you are DIFFERENT from the other people"), it's division into the thre branches, and the basis for almost all of our law until recently, you aren't looking very hard.Quote
While I personally feel that christianity and judaism bar homosexuals from religious membership, all that means is if you're a homosexual christian, you're just a little confused or something.
People who give me bigoted and ignorant babble on any topic are annoying to me and often end up occupying my thoughts on how to damage their faces "accidentally". I can't afford to have people like that on "my side".
"Your side", in this case RTKBA, can ill-afford to loose ANY allies right now.
People who give me bigoted and ignorant babble on any topic are annoying to me and often end up occupying my thoughts on how to damage their faces "accidentally". I can't afford to have people like that on "my side".
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 09, 2005, 07:27:41 AM
Post by: richyoung on December 09, 2005, 07:29:49 AM
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>all that means is if you're a homosexual christian, you're just a little confused or something.<
THAT, more than anything else, has ALWAYS bothered me: how can you follow a religion that says you (personally) are an abomination? It just does NOT make sense to me...
Ok... I REALLY have to get sleep...
One must sepreate the INCLINATION toward the activity from the activity itself. One must also seperate the SIN from the one who sins. For example, I may have a profound urge to start fires - its not until I give into that urge and actually start one that I can be tried for arson. Similarly, it's not until one repeatedly and unrepetantly engages in homosexual acts that it becomes a sin - and ALL sin is an "abomination", because all sin seperates us from God. Hence, since I have sinned, I myself am an "abomination", as are ALL men. I am saved through unearned and unearnable grace, as are ALL who will acknowledge and claim it, as well as any others who Jesus incedes on behalf of. Controversial though it may be, there ARE programs, with proven track records, that can help with those whose particular "cross to bear" is homosexual urges, just as there are for those with pyromania, nymphomania, etc. You just don't hear about them very much because it doesn't jibe with the secular, humanist point of view that homosexuality is 1. inborn, (yeah, sure, all those guys in the prison shower were just in life-long denial until they got sent up....), and 2. a perfectly normal and satisfactoy "lifestyle choice" (if its "inborn", how can it be a "choice"?).THAT, more than anything else, has ALWAYS bothered me: how can you follow a religion that says you (personally) are an abomination? It just does NOT make sense to me...
Ok... I REALLY have to get sleep...
So the crux of the matter is that the "urge" isn't the abomination, (although it certainly is a big obstacle to overcome, and one definatley meriting a request from the Creator for either relief or sufficient "grace" to endure), its continued, unrepentant giving into such urges that is the abomination - as any repeated, unrepentant sin would be.
Post by: richyoung on December 09, 2005, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
richyoung-- yeah, I didn't even want to start bursting his bubble about trying to come up with a revisionist U.S. history that WASN'T founded on Judeo Christian beliefs! Glad you pointed it out to the young fella, though!
Its not his fault, so much. Our so-called "school system" doesn't exactly teach this sort of thing any more. The older I get, the harder I have to work at educating myself to the REAL history, instead of the mush I was taught in school. For example, in school I was taught that Abe Lincoln was one of the greates presidents because he "saved the Union" by winning the "war to abolish slavery", when a simple list of 20 or so questions any competent 7th grader should be able to come up with can shoot THAT idea down pretty quick.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 09, 2005, 08:01:14 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
The commentary about me between the two of you is appropriately snide. I happen to have been homeschooled by a pair of christian teachers, one of whom was a college professor. Feel free to continue wringing your hands over "the decline of public education" as a backhanded way to insult me. I've heard enough drivel from both sides of the fence on how horrible public schools are and how each and every untermensch student in them is a thousand times inferior to our gleaming home educated supermen, or how homeschoolers are socially deficient introverts. Ahem.
Public schools? Did I miss something where someone 'dissed' public schools? One of my three children is in a public school. Two are homeschooled. Next year, it will be 2 in the public schools, and our intent is that all 3 graduate from a public high school. Who dissed public schools?Quote from: Blackburn
I would like to give thanks to my deity of choice for an opportunity to violently hit people with the logic-hammer, in a situation where I will feel good about it.
Let us begin.
Shall we start with the basics? Namely, the Ten Commandments.
1) Honor thy mother and father.
NOT a law.
2) Have no God before me.
NOT a law.
3) Don't covet thy neighbors wife.
NOT a law, although it will get you in trouble with your own.
4) Keep the Sabbath.
NOT a law.
5) Don't take God's name in vain.
NOT a law.
See where I'm going with this? If you're interested in living in a theocracy, I understand the Taliban is taking applications.
Outside of clear thinking and moral values, can you name some purely religious things that entered the founding of our country?
Certainly not all the founding Fathers were what you would term Christian. Some were Deists, some Atheist, some Unitarian.
I've read the entire bible and studied variants of theology, from straight-up judaism to messianic christianity to the standard baptist interperetation.
The bible treats women as property and condones slavery. There is very little freedom inside the bible aside from obeying God, which basically comes down to obeying authorities in power as they are chosen by God.
Our freedoms are not derived from the bible.
Thanks for educating me. I'm one dumb bumpkin, that's for darn sure! Let us begin.
Shall we start with the basics? Namely, the Ten Commandments.
1) Honor thy mother and father.
NOT a law.
2) Have no God before me.
NOT a law.
3) Don't covet thy neighbors wife.
NOT a law, although it will get you in trouble with your own.
4) Keep the Sabbath.
NOT a law.
5) Don't take God's name in vain.
NOT a law.
See where I'm going with this? If you're interested in living in a theocracy, I understand the Taliban is taking applications.
Outside of clear thinking and moral values, can you name some purely religious things that entered the founding of our country?
Certainly not all the founding Fathers were what you would term Christian. Some were Deists, some Atheist, some Unitarian.
I've read the entire bible and studied variants of theology, from straight-up judaism to messianic christianity to the standard baptist interperetation.
The bible treats women as property and condones slavery. There is very little freedom inside the bible aside from obeying God, which basically comes down to obeying authorities in power as they are chosen by God.
Our freedoms are not derived from the bible.
Post by: richyoung on December 09, 2005, 09:38:01 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
The commentary about me between the two of you is appropriately snide. I happen to have been homeschooled by a pair of christian teachers, one of whom was a college professor. Feel free to continue wringing your hands over "the decline of public education" as a backhanded way to insult me. I've heard enough drivel from both sides of the fence on how horrible public schools are and how each and every untermensch student in them is a thousand times inferior to our gleaming home educated supermen, or how homeschoolers are socially deficient introverts. Ahem.
I would like to give thanks to my deity of choice for an opportunity to violently hit people with the logic-hammer, in a situation where I will feel good about it.
Let us begin.
Shall we start with the basics? Namely, the Ten Commandments.
1) Honor thy mother and father.
NOT a law.
Try getting married, or any number of things, before you are 18,...WITHOUT your parent's permission. Heck - try to play high school football without it. Who can be legally fined because of a minor child's misbehavior? The parents. Whole areas of law, including how property is divided if someone dies without a will, are based on codifying in law the special nature of parent-child relationships. Don't beleive it? Spank a child that isn't yours and see what happens...I would like to give thanks to my deity of choice for an opportunity to violently hit people with the logic-hammer, in a situation where I will feel good about it.
Let us begin.
Shall we start with the basics? Namely, the Ten Commandments.
1) Honor thy mother and father.
NOT a law.
Quote
2) Have no God before me.
NOT a law.
What's that book the President swears into office on? Chairman Mao's collected wisdom? "Dianetics"? The Big Book of Bhuddah? "Vishnu for Dummies"? Oh, that's right - it's the BIBLE. Just like the majority of the chaplins in the armed services, (and for the Congress as well) are Christian, so is this Bible. The "In God We Trust" AINT Zeus....NOT a law.
Quote
3) Don't covet thy neighbors wife.
NOT a law, although it will get you in trouble with your own.
In civil law, it's called "alienation of affection" and can get you sued. Don't be in the Army or Air Force and covet your neighbor's wife,...unless you just like Leavenworth.NOT a law, although it will get you in trouble with your own.
Quote
4) Keep the Sabbath.
NOT a law.
It darn sure was until recently. I remember personally experiencing the prohibtion on most sales, services, and entertainments on Sunday - they are called "blue laws", should you wish to use Google or some other search engine to fill this gaping hole in your knowledge.NOT a law.
Quote
5) Don't take God's name in vain.
NOT a law.
Wrong again - try taking the Lord's name in vain (or any other cursing) in public in Oklahoma, and see what happens. I barely kept my wife out of jail for doing just that.NOT a law.
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See where I'm going with this? If you're interested in living in a theocracy, I understand the Taliban is taking applications.
"Thou shalt not kill" - LAW"Thou shalt not steal" - LAW
"Thou shalt not bear false witness" - LAW
Is it your serious contention that American law and morality was NOT origianlly based on Biblical precepts?
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Outside of clear thinking and moral values, can you name some purely religious things that entered the founding of our country?
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,... We hold these truths to be self-evident...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..."There's not one, but TWO references in the first paragraph of the Declaration that started it all.
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Certainly not all the founding Fathers were what you would term Christian. Some were Deists, some Atheist, some Unitarian.
the overwhelming majority of them were, in fact, Christian of some persuasion or another. Surely you know this.Quote
I've read the entire bible
...I respectfull submit that you could use better understanding or comprehension of it, as evident below....Quote
and studied variants of theology, from straight-up judaism to messianic christianity to the standard baptist interperetation.
The bible treats women as property and condones slavery.
The Christian Bible requires that a man sacrifice himself for his bride as Christ sacrificed himself for his church, and further speaks against divorce, so that women will not be left destitute. Far from condoning slavery, it establishes proper codes of behavior for both the slave, and the slaveholder. Furhter, it was largely Northern Christian organizations (along with British Christians) that agitated for abolishment of slavery, and operated the Underground Railroad, as I'm sure your home schooling must have taught you.The bible treats women as property and condones slavery.
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There is very little freedom inside the bible aside from obeying God, which basically comes down to obeying authorities in power as they are chosen by God.
...I must have missed it, can you tell me how many votes God has in the Electoral College?Quote
Our freedoms are not derived from the bible.
'...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."The people that founded this country would profoundly disagree with you.
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Edit:
Are you one of those message board denizens who makes a career from misunderstanding posts?
No. Are you?Are you one of those message board denizens who makes a career from misunderstanding posts?
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Are you experimenting with controlled substances? The people that annoy me are exactly the ones who are costing us allies by being vocal homophobes, racial bigots, or sexists.
...yet you see NO WAY in which YOUR ATTITUDE might be driving people away?
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 09, 2005, 11:01:42 AM
I think it was Ben Franklin who said we should be suspicious of anyone under 30 who wasn't a liberal, or over 30 who wasn't a conservative? I've been both. He was very wise and observant of the human condition.
I suspect we're probably alot closer on things than it appears here, since we're all longtime members of an RKBA forum.
I'd like to think of this thread as my own little kum ba yah contribution to join hands across the very religious beliefs you all are arguing about, to advance freedom via RKBA.
Virtual round of your favorite beverage on me? Now, let's relax and focus on defeating the insidious enemy of us all, those who would take our guns and our freedoms.
FigLutherKingNozzle
Post by: richyoung on December 09, 2005, 11:28:40 AM
Post by: Strings on December 09, 2005, 08:08:46 PM
Wasn't talking about those who have the homosexual urge, but fight it due to religious convictions. I'm refering to "alternative lifestyle Christians". They actively engage in homosexuality, yet proclaim themselves Christian. To me, that's like a Jew or Muslim eating a pork chop...
Post by: Bob F. on December 11, 2005, 04:20:25 PM
"We were lawless people...but we were on pretty good terms with the Great Spirit....You assumed we were savages, you did not understand our prayers. When we sang our praises to the sun..moon or wind...you said we were worshiping idols. Without understanding that we sometimes approached the Great Spirit through these things. We have a true belief in the Supreme Being......a stronger faith than those who called us pagans...Indians living close to nature and Nature's Ruler are not living in darkness." Walking Buffalo (1871-1967)
I like that. Just the other day my wife's aunt asked me about Catholicism. We pray to the saints as the Indians pray to the wind and sun.
Stay safe. Bob
PS Very interesting discussion!
Post by: Antibubba on December 11, 2005, 04:21:00 PM
Of course, this group is a fantasy, since the skeet folk think that AWBs have nothing to do with them, the EBR crowd think the Trapshooters are elitist snobs, the Tacticools snub the C&Rs...
Post by: grampster on December 12, 2005, 05:22:37 PM
I'll address this to you as you expressed an interest in the book, but I invite all of you to see if you can find it in the library or used book store or wherever.
"Wanderings" Chaim Potok's History of the Jews. (Published by Ballantine Books)
I read this in the mid 80's ( I think... its published in '78, don't remember for sure) and this thread got me to pick it up and start reading it again. I'm on page 111 of 500 pages and I'm enthralled with the poetic and lyrical language of Mr. Potok and the absolutely gripping story. He felt compelled to research and write this book as a journey into his heritage. I highly recommend trying to find this book and read it.
It doesn't matter whether you are on the spriritual graph or not, it is a marvelous book. that seems to, so far, pose as many questions as it reveals a thread of history.
Post by: matis on December 12, 2005, 08:15:21 PM
I'm already behind in my reading -- have stacks of books on my kitchen table, waiting to be read. Gotta peek around 'em to see the GF at dinner.
Just ordered WANDERINGS on half.com
You've mentioned this book twice, now, so this is all your fault!
(Thanks)
matis
Post by: richyoung on December 13, 2005, 04:48:39 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
You have convinced me that it is against state law to take the Lord's name in vain in Oklahoma.
Now show me where in the constitution, the bill of rights, or even the federalist papers that the founding fathers codified any manner of the christian religion, aside from laws that have been thought up in one incarnation or another around long before the time of the ten commandments. Hammurabi, anyone?
After all, I'd like to think that most people can hold themselves to a reasonable standard of behavior without needing a bible to tell them what to do. Naturally, some people without natural senses of propriety or conscience will need to go all the way to "God says" not to steal or kill.
Why we don't have a king, from 1 Samuel 8:Now show me where in the constitution, the bill of rights, or even the federalist papers that the founding fathers codified any manner of the christian religion, aside from laws that have been thought up in one incarnation or another around long before the time of the ten commandments. Hammurabi, anyone?
After all, I'd like to think that most people can hold themselves to a reasonable standard of behavior without needing a bible to tell them what to do. Naturally, some people without natural senses of propriety or conscience will need to go all the way to "God says" not to steal or kill.
" 6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."
Actually, only a tenth! Sounds like we have it worse now...
Post by: grampster on December 13, 2005, 06:08:21 AM
Glad I could oblige.