Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: mtnbkr on April 20, 2009, 11:23:40 AM
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I picked up from Woot.com the other day a nice vintage set of Disney albums (50th anniversary set). In addition, I have several albums I'd like to listen to more regularly. I have my grandparents' old console stereo in the bedroom as a TV stand. The record player works, but entire unit needs a rehab. I'm thinking about getting a turntable for my stereo in the den. The stereo is a 13yo Pioneer with equally old speakers. It doesn't get a lot of use, so it's in good shape.
What are some things to look for when considering a turntable? I'm looking at the Audio Technica AT-PL50 because I can get it from Amazon for less than $60 shipped and because some upgrades are available should I become more serious about records.
Chris
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Argh...
Analog music threads always start the same debate... Monkey vs. Petrodactyl. It's been done to death already. So I implore everyone to just give mtnbkr their honest opinion and leave it at that.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2Frecordplayer.gif&hash=0672a842d36397996e12234637dd41159b19d56a)
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If I was to get a turntable, I would get one of those that has a USB connection and software so that you can rip a vinyl LP to a digital sound file. I wish they had those before I got rid of my vinyl record collection.
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Don't buy a new one, they don't make good new ones anymore. Turntables are like musical instruments, and not like digital electronics that are all functionally the same. Get an old used one. You can pick up a serious turntable that sold for $800 back in 1975 for less than $50 now. Put a new cartridge on it first. You can figure out if a random old used one you find is any good at Audiokarma.org. To a first approximation, the heavier it is, the better.
That said that ATPL50 looks serviceable, an has a built in preamp which is nice. I would still buy at least a Grado Black cartridge or something. At least then you don't have to worry about your records. A quality, properly aligned and adjusted cartridge won't damage your records even if you have a fisher price turntable.
I would get one of those that has a USB connection and software so that you can rip a vinyl LP to a digital sound file.
You don't need a USB connection or special softaware to rip vinyl. You can do it with practically any PC and any turntable.
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"a nice vintage set of Disney albums (50th anniversary set)."
Racist bastard, you!
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I've been looking at used ones on Craigslist and such, but so many either need work according to the owner or are suspect.
What about this: http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL50&Category_Code=TURN
It's the same model as above, but with some upgrades from LPGear. The upgrades add $40 to the cost.
What are some good vintage models to look out for?
Chris
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"a nice vintage set of Disney albums (50th anniversary set)."
Racist bastard, you!
Hush Uncle Remus.
Chris
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What are some good vintage models to look out for?
Thorens, Denon, Technics, Pioneer, Panasonic, Marantz.....
The problem is every brand had a kickass turntable, and every brand had crap. Plus, they changed the product while keeping the same model name sometimes (case in point: Pioneer PL5**, which could be either a very very nice wood direct drive table, or a cheap plastic p-mount POS, depending on vintage). So brand isn't as important as getting a good model. I personally adore Technics direct drive tables of nearly any model, and you don't have to worry about belts to replace. I have a Technics SL1700 and I'm over even desiring to upgrade; I love it.
What about this
I would probably play records on it. After reading more about the stock model, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, at least not without replacing the cartridge first.
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Wow, pickins are much slimmer than a few years ago. It must be all those damn kids buying up indy rock records.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-SL-QD33-Turntable-Record-Player-Direct-Drive_W0QQitemZ110377035326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110377035326&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-SL-QD33-Turntable-Record-Player-Direct-Drive_W0QQitemZ110377035326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110377035326&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Pioneer-PL-10-Turntable-Record-Player-Serviced_W0QQitemZ180348076655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item180348076655&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A2|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Pioneer-PL-10-Turntable-Record-Player-Serviced_W0QQitemZ180348076655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item180348076655&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A2|294%3A50)
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You don't need a USB connection or special softaware to rip vinyl. You can do it with practically any PC and any turntable.
Wow, I learn something every day. If you have any suggestions in this regard, I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise!
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I've stayed with direct drive quartz, myself.
That's not saying there aren't good belt-drive versions out there.
I spent my big turntable money on good cartridges. My current model is a Grado, but I've been partial to Ortofon, too. Stanton had good reviews, but their lineup these days is geared more towards DJ use.
Make sure you use an RIAA-equalized turntable preamp with whatever Moving Magnet/Moving Coil cartridge turntable you find. Without that RIAA curve, your music will sound like something that came out of Ned's posterior.
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I learn something every day. If you have any suggestions in this regard, I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise!
It's very simple. Most PCs, even with builtin soundcards, have a line-in. In a pinch you could use a mic-in, maybe. You simply have to connect the (preamped) turntable to the PC with one of the now-very-common RCA-to-3.5mm patch cords.
Audacity (free audio editor) is very easy to use making it easy to edit out big clicks and pops; it also has denoisers and turntable speed-adjustment filters, so you can even record 45s if you turntable only does 33s.
Thus if you have a listenable turntable and PC you are already good to go. You either have a turntable preamp, or you are using a stereo amp that has a phono input. Any stereo amp with a phono input almost surely has "tape out" connections in the back; use those. If not any old crufty stereo amp from goodwill will. The stereo amp section doesn't even have to work, just the internal phono preamp.
If you have a bare turntable with no stereo amp, you (probably) can't hook it up straight to your soundcard because the levers are so low. You could always try though. Some turntables have built in preamps, but not many.
This website has pictures, but ignore the bit about software.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/knowledgecenter/howto/FromVinyltoComputer_StepByStep.aspx (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/knowledgecenter/howto/FromVinyltoComputer_StepByStep.aspx)
I have recorded many albums using the builtin sound on my HTPC connected to the tape outs of my stereo receiver, and the quality is very very good.
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What about this: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/ele/1128111345.html
Guy still has it and says it's a PL-S50.
Chris
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http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80122
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Does your stereo have a phono input? If not, then you'll either need a separate RIAA phono stage or a modern player that has the phono stage built in.
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Yeah, I saw that before I posted. I'm not an enthusiast, so I'm not sure if I'm missing any subtleties in the comments. It sounds like a decent turntable and the price is right.
Chris
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Yes, my stereo has a phono input. At least there's a selector button for Phono (in addition to CD, tape, AM/FM, etc).
Chris
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That Craigslist PLS-50 should work just fine, assuming the cartridge and stylus are in good shape.
If not, the turntable itself is cheap enough for you to replace them.
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Audacity (free audio editor) is very easy to use making it easy to edit out big clicks and pops;
There are two hardware gizmos I have on my stereo which are invaluable when listening to old records: an SAE impulse noise reduction unit, which gets rid of >90% of the clicks and pops on an old record, and a Burwen 1201DNF, which is a sliding high-pass filter which gets rid of much of the audible "hiss" that's inherent on LPs.
Neither has value for most CDs, but oddly enough, they came in handy when I was re-recording a CD (she's a Frankie Laine fan) for my mother - apparently, the CD was made from an old record, and every flaw on the original vinyl was faithfully captured and digitized! :rolleyes:
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Check out elpj.com
Best money you won't spend to play LP's.
Seriously...I wish I had one.
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Ask the same question over at www.partsexpress.com's tech forum. They've got a very simple BBS - the Tech Forum, and the Classifieds. Two sections. Even simpler than us.
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Quick question about two turntables...
First one is the Pioneer PL-S50 (aka PL-740 according to what I've read). It gets decent reviews and seems to be well regarded. It has a "nearly new needle".
The other, from the same seller, is a Technics SLQ300 for $30 with a new needle. Seller claims it has barely been used, but was used recently by the seller to transfer some records to CD. It doesn't seem to be as well regarded as the Pioneer.
Which one would be the better choice for someone who's just looking for a solid record player and not an serious audiophile (don't like junk, but I don't need top of the line either).
Chris
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It probably just depends on which is in better shape, and mostly on exactly these "new" and "nearly new" needles actually are. Either one would be miles better than an Ion or similar.
here's more on the technics; i like the technics direct drive tables and had an SLQ3 for a while; it was a fine table.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63793
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220491
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185464
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Ok, sounds like there isn't a huge difference between the two and the one that's in better shape would be the better choice.
Cool. I may have a record player by this evening.
I have some old, yet excellent condition, Eagles LPs to test with. :D
Chris
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Eagles LPs are the perfect thing to test out an old record player on! If the needle turns out to be chipped and horrifically mangles the groove, nothing is lost! Save the Creedence LPs for later...
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:P
I need to see if my parents have my old Kiss albums. Might even have that old Led Zep 4 LP as well.
Chris
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If the Zep4 LP is in good shape, I'll horse trade ya for it! =D
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It isn't.
Towards the end of the "album era", the albums at my parents' house didn't get a lot of love. Us kids abused them in a variety of ways. After all, tape, and later CD, was where it was at. The folks weren't audiophiles, not even close.
All this assumes my parents still have the two milk crates full of albums we once had. Considering they haven't owned a record player in over a decade, I would be surprised if they survived their last move in 2006.
Chris
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One of these days I'm gonna dig out my old record collection (including Led Zep 4 :D). Not sure how I'm going to listen to it. I had an old Marantz and a Harman-Kardon. Both were really good. I think the Marantz died and I probably loaned the H-K to my dad. I had good luck with Shure cartridges.
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Harmon-Kardon
For some reason I always read and pronounce that as Karmon-Hardon, even when I think carefully about it beforehand.
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zahc, I hear ya. Even after owning a number of their products, I still can't seem to spell it right.
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For some reason I always read and pronounce that as Karmon-Hardon, even when I think carefully about it beforehand.
You should just refer to it as H-K or H&K... for simplicity's sake.
(I don't know if they hate their customers, though).
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I know where there is a pristine Bang & Olufsen Beogram 4400 linear-tracking turntable for sale... =D
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I ended up with the Pioneer. It was a lot cleaner than the Technics.
I hooked it up last night, but I'm getting a low hum from it. I only hear it when the music is low, but it's there. I also need to replace the rubber "feet", they're old, cracked, and probably don't help much. In addition, I need to find a proper stand for it. I have it sitting on the stack of stereo/DVD/TV gear in the cabinet. Our floors aren't the most solid (this is on the 2nd floor of our townhouse). If my daughter starts dancing around with the music, the needle bounces around. Oops. The last time I spent any significant time with a record player, it was on a slab foundation.
Chris
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Do you have a ground wire in addition to the RCA cables? Did you hook it up?
I had a marantz turntable that hummed. I figured out it was the RCA cables because when you moved them the hum would change. I put a fresh set of composite video cables on it and the hum went away entirely.
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Yes and yes.
Changing the cables might be problematic as they appear to be permanently attached inside the turntable.
Chris
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In my case I had to take the bottom off the turntable and solder the new ones on. It was pretty easy with the marantz turntable but I don't know about other ones.
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oh, ok. I can probably handle that. I'll deal with that after I get a good, solid playing surface. That may be the project killer right there.
Chris
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Thank you to mtnbkr for the question and everyone else for answers and tips. I've got a vinyl collection that I bought from my (now ex-) girlfriend about ten or twelve years ago, five milk crates full of everything from some of the Disney albums she got as a child to hard rock/metal to easy listening, dating from the late '60s to late '80s, that I've been wanting to transfer to disc. This thread has been a big help.
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I have my dad's old Dual:
http://dual-reference.com/tables/1215.htm
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdual-reference.com%2Ftables%2F1215r.jpg&hash=a7aee0d47772c7592f8ec444f493fe7cccbc7c06)
BTW, Beatles records sound MUCH better than the CD's, and I don't know why.
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I ended up with the Pioneer. It was a lot cleaner than the Technics.
I hooked it up last night, but I'm getting a low hum from it. I only hear it when the music is low, but it's there. I also need to replace the rubber "feet", they're old, cracked, and probably don't help much. In addition, I need to find a proper stand for it. I have it sitting on the stack of stereo/DVD/TV gear in the cabinet. Our floors aren't the most solid (this is on the 2nd floor of our townhouse). If my daughter starts dancing around with the music, the needle bounces around. Oops. The last time I spent any significant time with a record player, it was on a slab foundation.
Chris
Is it a mag or ceramic cartridge? You might need to replace it. The one I have above hums when it needs replacement. Also, older units might need to be grounded.
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Cartridge? What does that mean? I've seen the term while perusing TT sites, but it's a bit above me right now.
The unit is grounded, well, the ground wire is attached to the amp. I need to pull it apart, check the continuity of the wires and maybe even replace them. I found a Target wall-mount stand on Craigslist for $30. Because our TH side walls are not connected to the floor (fire safety design to protect other units), that may be the ideal way to isolate the TT from the floor vibrations.
Chris
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Sometimes the fix to an annoying hum is simply removing the cartridge and re-seating it back into the tonearm socket. ;)
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Yes, that or wiggling or replacing the little clips that hook onto the back of the cartridge can have an effect too.
The cartridge is the magnetic pickup on the end of the tonearm. It has at least as much effect on the quality of sound as the turntable itself does, and the stylus has a big effect too. Sometimes "cartridge" effectively means "stylus" because on moving-magnet cartridges, the price of the diamond stylus dominates the price of the cartridge. It's often as cheap to buy a whole new cartridge as to buy a new stylus. Plus when a new cartridge/stylus is installed, the new sound signature can be due as much to the new stylus as to the cartridge itself. And there are several lines of moving-magnet cartridges where the cartridge body is the same throughout the product line, and the only difference between the low-end $50 one and the high-end $400 one is the stylus, which may vary from a conical chunk of diamond on an aluminum tube to a carefully shaped line-contact diamond on a multi-jointed magnesium cantilever.
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cool, thanks. I'll check the cartridge to make sure it's hooked up properly and all.
Chris
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Cartridge? What does that mean? I've seen the term while perusing TT sites, but it's a bit above me right now.
The unit is grounded, well, the ground wire is attached to the amp. I need to pull it apart, check the continuity of the wires and maybe even replace them. I found a Target wall-mount stand on Craigslist for $30. Because our TH side walls are not connected to the floor (fire safety design to protect other units), that may be the ideal way to isolate the TT from the floor vibrations.
Chris
The cartridge is usually part of the needle. It's basically the part the needle hooks up to to convert the grooves into sound. There are 2 main types, magnetic and ceramic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph#Pickup_systems
This gives the skinny on 'em.
EDIT: BEaten. Iguess thats what all that red text above me was about.
I've spent way too much time on my dad's old record collection it seems...