Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: digitalandanalog on April 22, 2009, 04:42:05 AM
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I have always had the feeling that guys who run computers like they are toys look down on people who are virtually computer illiterate (like me).
Why is this?
I have known many people who lack computer skills who are part of a viable work force, yet they are looked down on because they have no need, desire or knowledge for computers beyond "point and click".
There was life before 'puters. How did we ever survive?
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My perspective is like this - I'm a non-IT type who got stuck doing IT tech support in the Army (IDF, not US Army).
If you're a tech support type, most of your work interfacing with non-IT people is when they ask you to fix stuff for them. So you don'tget them to see when they're doing whatever it is they're good at. You see them when they do somethingwrong, and break a computer - and usually it's them committing what is - to you - an obvious stupid mistake that you would NEVER EVER DO. So you get accustomed to seeing them as 'stupid' even though they may be complete wizards at whatever it is they do for a living.
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Not me. I'm an IT guy and I don't base my opinion of someone on what they do for a living. I've pushed a broom and scrubbed dishes to pay bills. If things go poorly I could end up doing that again. Besides, I guarantee there's something you know how to do that I would struggle with.
I feel better when I take time to do some "real" physical work anyway. Cutting up some trees that were damaged in storms for a friend who can't do it herself left me feeling a lot more satisfied than asking yet again if someone has rebooted before calling to complain that they're still having problems logging in, or doing battle with a recalcitrant backup.
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I'm an engineer and don't work with my hands for the most part. My father, my grandfather, and just about all my uncles worked with their hands for a living in carpentry, welding, pipe fitting, etc. One uncle is a pipeline welder. He may not be good with computers, but I know dang well I couldn't do 60" pipe welds in a trench for 12 hours a day without failing a weld.
It doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it well. I have a lot of respect for good craftsmen.
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It doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it well. I have a lot of respect for good craftsmen.
You do. I doubt America still does.
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I think part of the problem is the large number of contractors that do crappy work. If I lived closer to my uncle, I'd hire him for all of my home improvement work. Since I don't, I have no idea who is around me that would do a good job. I would pay extra if I could be certain the job was done right. I've asked around at work and no one knows anyone they would recommend. Hell, my boss does all his own work on his house. He figures he can hide all the mistakes and screw ups just as well as the professionals.
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For the record I fall into both categories. I am (well used to be) an IT type guy. I also love hard work and getting my hands dirty.
That being said I have been guilty of "looking down upon" people who don't. I am not saying it is something I did consciously, but in retrospect I don't deny I have done it.
I think it comes from the fact that computers are so simple. It is a matter of clicking a few buttons and remembering a few basics. Once you have explained something that should be common sense for the 6th or 7th time you really start to get frustrated by it.
Now at the same time I always had the same attitude towards IT professionals that I worked with who look at manual labor like it is below them. I never had repect for people who were not willing to get their hands dirty.
I don't know, maybe that ust makes me an all around jerk who hates everyone..
Anyway, regardless of the past I am in sales now, so everyone hates me :P
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It doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it well. I have a lot of respect for good craftsmen.
Well said.
I respect and acknowledge competence. It doesn't matter what you do, but do it well.
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You kidding me. I am a tech/accounting/risk/cube monkey geek and I have an immense amount of respect for those that do real work not to mention those folks who are real craftsman and can build things out of nothing.
Hell I went to college so I wouldn't have to do real work. I worked plumbing for a while and let me tell you, those guys WORK!!! :D
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I have always had the feeling that guys who run computers like they are toys look down on people who are virtually computer illiterate (like me).
Why is this?
I have known many people who lack computer skills who are part of a viable work force, yet they are looked down on because they have no need, desire or knowledge for computers beyond "point and click".
There was life before 'puters. How did we ever survive?
Most IT people don't mind folks that are virtually computer illiterate.
- They do mind repeating the same information to the same person more than once. For example, if I have a user call about problem XYX, and I tell him to do A, B and then C.... I might get annoyed if a day later he calls again with the same problem. And the next day, and the next day.
- They do mind policy jumpers. "I know the policy says I can't share my password, but I want to attach a Post It note to my monitor containing my password anyways."
- They do mind folks that don't ponder a situation one iota before calling/emailing. By now, everyone knows that you should reboot your computer first as it fixes 75% of all problems. But folks don't. Or closing the application and reopening it. Or being able to give a specific account of what they were doing that led up to the problem.
- Screamers or 'Right NOW' folks. Enough said, no one likes them and they're going to a special hell anyways.
I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, if I get someone computer illiterate that is polite, doing what they're supposed to do, etc and has a tech problem, I don't stop until their problem is resolved or is proven that it cannot possibly be resolved. I've typed up so many "cheat sheets" for folks it's not even funny.
Having worked in other professions, I can see parallels in pretty much every other career field. Every career field has a generic list of really annoying things the users/clients/customers do. The list doesn't change that significantly between career fields, either.
I suspect it's always been this way, but it's impossible to get good help. Most folks do a "good enough" job, but really don't pay attention to detail.
It doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it well. I have a lot of respect for good craftsmen.
Hell, I respect anyone that's just plain good at anything remotely constructive. A good craftsmen is worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, they only tend to get paid a bit over normal rabble. Tis not right. When I do find a good craftsman, I definitely try to pay enough to keep on their good side.
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Let me expand on what Revdisk said:
As someone that supports many different customer environments, I fully expect people I work for (i.e. the customers) to be somewhat lacking in the "clue" department.
I mean, that's why they hire us, you know?
What *I* don't like is when they deny their ignorance, and then demand we pick up the pieces. We've got several customers like that; that decided for whatever reason (money, pride, etc) to go against our recommendation, then want to sue us when we can't keep what THEY spec'd out working.
Or, when they deny their ignorance, by doing the equivalent of hitting a mirror with a hammer, and demand we pick up every piece and glue it back together...
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I think part of the problem is the large number of contractors that do crappy work. If I lived closer to my uncle, I'd hire him for all of my home improvement work. Since I don't, I have no idea who is around me that would do a good job. I would pay extra if I could be certain the job was done right. I've asked around at work and no one knows anyone they would recommend.
This is a persistent problem across many areas. Not being able to find competence apparently at any price. Often, you pay an above-average price and still get incompetence.
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In line with that, my problem is wilfull ignorance.
The people who treat technology with learned helplessness because they "know" they're computer-illiterate, so they just shut their minds off on even the most basic things. The ones when I ask them to do something as simple as pull the power cord from the back of a computer, and they respond with, "Wich one is the power cord?"
I'm sorry, but even if it's your first time with a computer ever, experience with other electrical appliances should get you that far, or just general life experience should have armed you with the tools to deduce which one is the power. Then when I describe the power cord, they're still confused.
It's not specifically that problem, (although I dealt with it just last weekend with a friend of the family) but that attitude.
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Having come from both sides of the fence, I can assure you it works both ways.
Put a IT guy who has never swung a hammer on a roof in July with 5 guys that can walk up a ladder no handed with a shingle pack on each shoulder.
There will be plenty of looking down.
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As there should be; I'd have no business working on a roof; just like some folks have no business managing large, high availability network/server infrastructure.
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I have always had the feeling that guys who run computers like they are toys look down on people who are virtually computer illiterate (like me).
Why is this?
Because you suck. And, we hate you. :laugh:
Every profession is like that. I expect that prostitutes can be very dismissive of the skills or lack thereof of their clients.
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Well here is a thread I can relate to! My wife is the IT person, I am a manual laborer. Sometimes she gets irritated because I do not remember how to do some simple thing on the computer. The problem is, I am in the shop all day. The task on the computer I forget, is one that I may only do once or twice a year. So it is easy to forget- plus I am over 50 so my brain is all caked up. =D
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The highlight of my day... Running out to a work site to get a nice long grounding rod inserted deeply into the ground... Did we use a hammer, and do it like real men?
Generator, electric hammer, down it went. Took longer to wheel the genny over and get it started than it did to drive it. A lot longer.
In a few minutes, I'm going to install a fax modem in one of the office computers. And tonight I'm messing with a database of about 3,000 entries...
It's all good.
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I've worked both blue collar jobs and white collar jobs. I know that there white collar folks who do look down at the blue collar folks. I work with some.
I really see it in the women sometimes. For example, I work with many women who would never go out with a blue collar guy even if they made good money.
As a white collar guy now, I always try to remember my roots.
I can find employment where some white collar folks won't or can't. I've done those dirty jobs before, and if I have to, I'll do them again.
I guess for some, doing those "dirty" jobs is beneath their dignity, even for survival. I see some of them losing everything after a job loss because they won't take what they consider a menial job to survive.
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If I could make the money I make now, shoveling out stalls in a barn, that's where I would be.
"Put a IT guy who has never swung a hammer on a roof in July with 5 guys that can walk up a ladder no handed with a shingle pack on each shoulder.
There will be plenty of looking down."
Hell yeah! I couldn't make it up the ladder, they'd have to look down =|
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I have always had the feeling that guys who run computers like they are toys look down on people who are virtually computer illiterate (like me).
Why is this?
Because you go through life trying to find things to feel simultaneously outraged and superior about.
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Strangely enough, years ago, I was a "wire monkey", wiring up new lan installations in buildings. Very physical work, moving heavy objects, climbing in ceilings, etc.
I made squat, but it was one of the most enjoyable jobs I've ever had.
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Because you go through life trying to find things to feel simultaneously outraged and superior about.
Huh? WTF are you talking about?
I feel neither outraged nor superior.
Truth is that I feel inferior because I am not very good with computers beyond "point and click" and I really just don't get how to make them do all those neat things that IT types can.
However, I am proud of myself for the many talents that I do have. And they are many.
So where is this outraged superiority you speak of? And just how does it apply to me?
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See, you're being outraged and acting superior.
:lol: It's sort of an inside joke here, usually describing someone else.
And my dog's name is Ginger.
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See, you're being outraged and acting superior.
cheesy It's sort of an inside joke here, usually describing someone else.
Oh, I've seen the quote about being outraged and feeling superior at the same time many times before...however there was no humorous "face" tacked on the post regarding my thread. No smile with serious words equals an attack to me.
If it was a joke...well...a doofy little icon would have helped me to get it...maybe.
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A sense of humour helps in these cases as well. Oh, almost forgot :P
I'd say your professed feelings of inferiority are more the issue than any perceived slight on the part of IT people.
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I don't look down on anyone.
I've been the guy on the other end (whether it's across the counter from an irate customer at the burger stand, being yelled at for putting a load of block in the wrong place, or on the phone with a high-and-mighty vendor support person) all too often.
This stuff, however, sorely tests my patience (as revdisk related):
-repeating the same information to the same person more than 3-4 thousand times.
-policy jumpers
-folks that don't ponder a situation one iota before calling/emailing.
-Screamers or 'Right NOW' folks.
-the wilfully ignorant
I can't even begin to guess how many times I have had to run all the way across campus to fix a machine that is "broken and beyond repair" only to power on the monitor. "How did you do that?" :rolleyes: I want to ask "How do you know when your oven is on at home?"
I'll add one - folks who rant at IT for procedural issues - "I don't know how to order a blood gas analysis w/lbt and abc and lmnop". Neither do I. That's THEIR responsibility, but I catch grief over that kinda thing repeatedly.
"Our supervisor said we may not___________. So what do we do instead?"
"Uhh, call your supervisor and find out?"
" Gee, thanks, you have been very helpful." I catch the bile for other's poor communication skills.
and this:
if I get someone computer illiterate that is polite, doing what they're supposed to do, etc and has a tech problem, I don't stop until their problem is resolved or is proven that it cannot possibly be resolved. I've typed up so many "cheat sheets" for folks it's not even funny.
Me too. If they say they need help and don't try to b.s. me I'll bend over backwards for them (if I can help them).
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Having come from both sides of the fence, I can assure you it works both ways.
Put a IT guy who has never swung a hammer on a roof in July with 5 guys that can walk up a ladder no handed with a shingle pack on each shoulder.
There will be plenty of looking down.
I haven't seen that much looking down from either side, and I've been on both. I've been a roofer in Dallas in August, and a software engineer in Chicago during winter. When I built (or repaired) a computer for a bue collar person or put a roof on my boss's house while I was writing software, both seemed pretty appreciative.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, if I get someone computer illiterate that is polite, doing what they're supposed to do, etc and has a tech problem, I don't stop until their problem is resolved or is proven that it cannot possibly be resolved.
Agreed. Back when I was doing some tech support work, I had a caller who was upgrading from a Macintosh to a newer Mac clone. We supported the clone. While I was talking her through setting up AppleTalk to transfer the files over to her newer, faster word processor, the Mac had a complete and utter disk failure. She was polite and absolutely cooperative - following instructions exactly without question and giving good feedback on every action - despite crying over the two years worth of documents on the now-defunct disk. Norton Disk Doctor said there was no drive there, (that's bad) but Disk Editor found something resembling a master boot record in roughly the right place.
Fortunately, we had full discretion regarding support boundaries, and I'd rebuilt dozens of boot sectors before...on PCs. The first - and to date, the only - time I've rebuilt a Mac boot record was working blind, over the phone, with a client who barely understood the mouse. Three hours later, she was happily moving the recovered files over. I had her call back a few hours later to be walked through a low-level format and reinstall on the Mac, (I was winging it with generic information from an older machine that we had handy for parts testing, so it was reporting the wrong disk size. It said there was twice as much data on it as the disk would hold.) and later that week I found out that my boss had gotten one of the most enthusiastic customer letters ever seen in that department over my work that day.
As a bonus, it had people with ten times my MacOS experience coming to me for advice after they found out I'd done that. Since "consulting time" counted as production, but could happen out at the smoking area, that was a nice fringe benefit.
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I'm not an IT guy, but here and there I've done things that have earned a modicum of IT related respect from IT guys. People do ask me about 'puters and how to make them work good.
Don't mind helping at all, but as others have said wilful ignorance annoys. The worst are those who profess to being unable even to navigate a webpage and so can you help them look up so and so. They then spend the entire time telling you to 'click there' 'then there'.
Also, I appreciate that computers are pretty difficult for some people, but if you've owned one for six months and still act like it is going to bite you...
Anyway, I've done warehouse/shop floor work for the pay and had guys look down on me in that situation.
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I'd say your professed feelings of inferiority are more the issue than any perceived slight on the part of IT people.
Much to your chagrin, I know the difference between my feeling of inferiority and the sense of being looked down upon...
...kinda like you do to me frequently...
Oh snap! Just called you out. And you know it.
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Much to your chagrin, I know the difference between my feeling of inferiority and the sense of being looked down upon...
...kinda like you do to me frequently...
Oh snap! Just called you out. And you know it.
Oh teh noes, I've been called out! And I know it. ;/
Maybe if you untwisted the panties and calmed down a bit, I wouldn't feel the need to mock your persecution complex so much.