Post by: Paddy on December 04, 2005, 02:20:16 PM
Post by: Guest on December 04, 2005, 02:36:59 PM
Libertarians are not opposed to helping out others. We're just opposed to doing it at gunpoint.
Post by: Iain on December 04, 2005, 02:55:06 PM
Apologies to Riley if I'm wrong.
Post by: Guest on December 04, 2005, 03:09:18 PM
I've volunteered for Habitat for Humanity, Relay for Life, and served as a volunteer tutor at my local elementary for year, plus some other stuff. I also donate as much as I can to charitable organizations like the Salvation Army and Hunters for the Hungry.
Post by: Fjolnirsson on December 04, 2005, 04:35:35 PM
Post by: Firethorn on December 04, 2005, 04:50:34 PM
Post by: Standing Wolf on December 04, 2005, 05:20:59 PM
Post by: grampster on December 04, 2005, 05:40:28 PM
You are not poor my friend. You are rich in the spirit of a good life. The more you give, the more you gain.
I'm leaning more toward the libertarian point of view recently. I do believe that under our system of governance, Constitutional Republic; Representative form of governance, that people need to be involved in that governance in order for it to succeed in the way it should. I am not opposed to good government. Perhaps government should be a catalyst for things that make life better, and then stand aside except as ombudsman. I am working toward that end in my township and county.
Regarding other acts of support to worthy causes, I participate but don't crow about it.
Post by: Justin on December 04, 2005, 08:15:57 PM
Barabara put it perfectly. It ain't charity if I don't have a choice in the matter.
Post by: Fly320s on December 04, 2005, 08:41:45 PM
Post by: jefnvk on December 04, 2005, 09:41:26 PM
Never a big monetary giver, but then I have never really been out making money either. Did a lot of community work in high school, but I would be lying if I said there was nothing in it for me.
Post by: SkunkApe on December 04, 2005, 09:59:24 PM
Quote from: RileyMc
give blood, and/or contribute to other charitable causes? Just curious. (small "l" libertarians included)
I figure I give roughly 40% of my real income to state and federal governments. If those aren't charitable cause, I don't know what are.How about giving me that money back, then asking the same question?
Post by: HForrest on December 04, 2005, 10:56:46 PM
Post by: griz on December 05, 2005, 04:31:13 AM
Forced "charity" is like mandatory volunteering.
Post by: Zundfolge on December 05, 2005, 06:38:38 AM
I've given blood (but not recently), I donate tons of stuff each year to the Salvation Army (which is a religious group, so that should count twice since libertarians tend to be anti-religious :p ).
And like SkunkApe I allow myself to be raped by local, state and federal governments to the tune of close to half my annual income.
Post by: Paddy on December 05, 2005, 08:30:42 AM
I (like to think I) live by the 'do unto others' credo. My personal beliefs include an eventual judgment day when we will all be held accountable for our actions on earth. I also think that no amount of 'personal responsibility' can prepare for every possibility, and that charitable organizations serve an integral function in a civlized society.
However, since libertarians seem to eschew anything and everything of a 'societal' nature, derisively referring to 'collectivism', I was curious about individual activities with regard to giving.
As an aside, SkunkApe and Zundfolge, unless you're including sales, property, and hidden taxes in the cost of goods in those 40% and 50% figures, something is wrong. There are all sorts of ways to shelter income from federal and state income taxes. IRA's, 401's if you're an employee, Keoghs if you're self employed, annuities, etc.
Post by: griz on December 05, 2005, 08:50:14 AM
Quote
However, since libertarians seem to eschew anything and everything of a 'societal' nature, derisively referring to 'collectivism', I was curious about individual activities with regard to giving. However, since libertarians seem to eschew anything and everything of a 'societal' nature, derisively referring to 'collectivism', I was curious about individual activities with regard to giving.
If I may generalize since I do not speak for everybody:Libertarians arent denying the societal nature of people nor the benefits of acting collectively. The issue is when the government controls the decisions on what is worthy of charity. Using me as an example, this libertarian gave money to people helping the victims of hurricane Katrina, but I do not support the governments blanket policy of cutting a check to everybody in a shelter.
Post by: Guest on December 05, 2005, 09:10:44 AM
Quote from: Combat-wombat
I agree with SkunkApe, was about to chime in with a similar thought. People will give a lot more money (this doesn't really apply to blood) ....
Eliminating the pre-emptive Iraq war would have increased the possible blood-donor pool by over 2000.Riley, you might as well admit now that there are no political solutions to the problems aggravating you. Voting itself is not only numerically futile, but coercive (in that it is a proxy for coercing the voters that didn't vote for your candidate). Save time by becoming an anarchist now and staying home from the polls.
To answer the question, all human transactional behavior is economic, so anyone that donates anything gets some kind of benefit in return; it is axiomatic.
Post by: Guest on December 05, 2005, 10:40:24 AM
Quote
However, since libertarians seem to eschew anything and everything of a 'societal' nature, derisively referring to 'collectivism', I was curious about individual activities with regard to giving.
A common misconception. Libertarians are opposed to STATE-run welfare and social programs, and feel that the private sector (charities) should be providing for those who are unable to provide for themselves. It is very much within the libertarian philosophy that one should donate to worthy social causes.
Post by: CatsDieNow on December 05, 2005, 11:29:49 AM
Post by: ...has left the building. on December 05, 2005, 12:59:12 PM
Post by: SkunkApe on December 05, 2005, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: RileyMc
As an aside, SkunkApe and Zundfolge, unless you're including sales, property, and hidden taxes in the cost of goods in those 40% and 50% figures, something is wrong. There are all sorts of ways to shelter income from federal and state income taxes. IRA's, 401's if you're an employee, Keoghs if you're self employed, annuities, etc.
I'm counting federal income tax, social security/medicare (both emploer and employye contributions), state income tax, state sales tax, vehicle license fees, and capital gains taxes. I'm ignoring things like gas taxes, fishing and hunting licenses, Wallop/Breaux tax on sportingfishing equipment, FAET tax on firearms and ammunition, cigarette tax, liquor tax, telephone taxes, toll booth taxes, etc. etc. etc. It's making me ill even thinking about it. I'm also ignoring local taxes. I pay a heck of a lot of property tax money for schools, and I don't even have any children.All of this money is collected under threat of physical violence. Most of it is given to people who will take all they can get, or for causes that I do not support, with no concern for my well-being.
Quote from: RileyMc
The question was not meant as a setup to an attack on libertarianism, but rather for my own edification as I search for a new political affiliation.
I offer a portion of my remaining time and money to causes of my own choosing. I do this for my own personal satisfaction. I could list examples here, so as to impress others. But that's not really the point of charity, now is it?
Post by: Jamisjockey on December 05, 2005, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: Barbara
I do, but I'm confused by the question.
Libertarians are not opposed to helping out others. We're just opposed to doing it at gunpoint.
Amen.Libertarians are not opposed to helping out others. We're just opposed to doing it at gunpoint.
I give money to the Red Cross, Rails to Trails, donate used goods to several local religious thrift stores, and give blood a couple times a year....that reminds me I need to set up my next appointment
I think SkunkApes numbers are actually low. All the Goods and Services we consume are produced, imported, and or sold by companies/people who have to pay taxes, too. So, we are paying thier taxes through higher prices.
Post by: Standing Wolf on December 05, 2005, 06:41:46 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on December 05, 2005, 09:57:46 PM
As for myself, yes.
The War on Cancer Society, specifically. [an Israeli charity]
Post by: Stickjockey on December 06, 2005, 05:01:26 AM
Quote
I'm a lifelong Republican who has been abandoned by his party on too many levels to accept, and a Democrat Party affiliation is completely out of the question.
Right there with ya, Riley.
Post by: atek3 on December 06, 2005, 06:56:17 AM
Post by: DrAmazon on December 06, 2005, 09:29:36 AM
I also try to talk with my dollars-not buying from companies that are blatantly anti-gun, trying to buy more from the local businesses which supply a far superior product or service for a slightly higher cost and trying not to buy items made in China.
I take my own trash to the dump rather than paying for pickup. Taking it to the dump lets me do more recycling and makes me more aware of what I throw away.
Post by: atek3 on December 06, 2005, 10:12:14 AM
Helping the chinese stay poor, what a humanitarian.
atek3
Post by: Azrael256 on December 06, 2005, 10:23:31 AM