Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Waitone on June 22, 2009, 06:37:38 PM
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Interesting what a little unconventional warfare does to doctrine. At least the military does a good job adapting. . . unlike other governmental agencies.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20090618.aspx
American Snipers Go Magnum
June 18, 2009: The U.S. Army has ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M-24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo will cost about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum will be ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.
All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.
The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.
There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.
This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.
The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)
The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.
The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed..
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Is 300 Win Mag really that much more potent than 308?
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Is 300 Win Mag really that much more potent than 308?
A little.
What's really fun is a 300 WM with a muzzle brake. Wait until someone you intensely dislike is settled in next to you and has just touched the trigger. Then... =D
Brad
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You can stuff a heavier bullet in it with better BC and still have it leave 200+ FPS faster.
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The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system.
What are these 50lbs of components? Underbarrel M60s?
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Probably counts all the different sighting options, the case etc.
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What Balog said. The 17 pounds is (approximately) what a sniper would carry in the field. Or something like that.
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If I wanted to purchase the civie equivalent of an M24 would I have to scratch up something close to $6,700 :O
I've thought about getting into long range shooting but not at the entry fee.
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For those who remember such things, this is nothing new.
The Army specifically ordered the M24 (Remington 700 variant) with a long action in anticipation of switching over from 7.62mm NATO to .300 Win Mag. Some thought it was folly to have a long action 700 for the short-action 7.62mm NATO round, but the option was always there.
To get one's own version of the M24 or M40, there are several custom gun makers who will build one for you using a 700 action.
Norm and Rocky Chandler over at Iron Brigade Armory will build you a USMC M40 variant.
If the budget is tight, you can always start with a 700PSS or 700V, both sub-moa guns, and proceed from there as time and money permit.
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Going that route, my first upgrade would be this: http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-tactical-stock-list.php#m40a1
Barring a real S&B or USO scope, what would be adequate for someone who is... well, cheap, but wanting to get into it? Cheap meaning $700 or less (less, meaning not "for X dollars more you could...").
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By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle
Sound a lot like a new rifle to me. Wouldn't be more meaningful to indicate that they are keeping the scope and stock?
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The Army specifically ordered the M24 (Remington 700 variant) with a long action in anticipation of switching over from 7.62mm NATO to .300 Win Mag.
And yet they still replaced the barrel and receiver.
What's really fun is a 300 WM with a muzzle brake. Wait until someone you intensely dislike is settled in next to you and has just touched the trigger. Then... =D
When I was working as a range safety officer at a gun club during public sight-in days, a guy was shooting a .300 Weatherby with a muzzle brake. He had a stack of targets on the T-shaped shooting bench just to his right, about 2 feet in back of the muzzle. Every time he fired a round, the forward edges of the targets were lifted off the table about an inch due to the backblast.
I was very glad to be wearing both muffs and earplugs that day!
If I wanted to purchase the civie equivalent of an M24 would I have to scratch up something close to $6,700 :O
Let's see . . . trued action bedded into a good stock, good barrel, trigger, and optics . . . given the military penchant for overpaying, I suspect you could get a functionally equivalent rifle for less than half that. (I'm not sure what the extra 50+ lbs of accessories includes.)
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And yet they still replaced the barrel and receiver.
Later in the article, they mention the option of upgrading to .338 Lapua by replacing the barrel and receiver. It's not a stretch to think an error occurred and they just said "barrel and receiver" where they meant just "barrel" in reference to the .300 Win Mag. I wouldn't think that they would need to replace the receiver (it shouldn't be that worn out by now) but who knows. They might have gotten a good deal on the combo.
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Yeah, the receiver replacement option was for the .338 Lapua Magnum, not the .300 Win Mag.
The 700 Long Action is just fine for the latter.
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Yeah, the receiver replacement option was for the .338 Lapua Magnum, not the .300 Win Mag.
The 700 Long Action is just fine for the latter.
. . . for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round.
So it's $4k just for a new barrel and some bolt and (possibly) magazine work? :O
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So it's $4k just for a new barrel and some bolt and (possibly) magazine work? :O
When it comes to the military and weapons, quite often that cost comes with other benefits. Things like spare parts, support and service, and accessories that are often left out of an article. It probably comes with a case, spare parts, and who knows what else. Some of the parts may be beefed up, too, made of materials that a typical hunting rifle isn't.
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Is 300 Win Mag really that much more potent than 308?
Yes. 2600 ft.lbs. versus 3500 ft. lbsp
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When it comes to the military and weapons, quite often that cost comes with other benefits. Things like spare parts, support and service, and accessories that are often left out of an article. It probably comes with a case, spare parts, and who knows what else. Some of the parts may be beefed up, too, made of materials that a typical hunting rifle isn't.
I hear the case is made of hand-selected clubbed baby seals.
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I hear the case is made of hand-selected clubbed baby seals.
I seriously doubt that.
Seals are way too soft, they might be the lining though. I'm guessing the case is made out of ivory.
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The Accuracy International AWM is what our Royal Marine Commandos use, chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum.
I can see why you would want something more manageable than the .50 cal rifles, but without sacrificing too much effective range.
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I can see why you would want something more manageable than the .50 cal rifles, but without sacrificing too much effective range.
Not to mention something with lighter ammo. The more rounds you carry the more jihadis you can kill.
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Not to mention something with lighter ammo. The more rounds you carry the more jihadis you can kill.
I'm not sure this works with snipers. More educated people can confirm, but I think snipers have very specific targets that they are supposed to take down, rather then randomly hunting Jihadis. They don't fire off hundreds of rounds in the space of minutes.
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They don't fire off hundreds of rounds in the space of minutes.
But we love them, anyway. =)
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I'm not sure this works with snipers. More educated people can confirm, but I think snipers have very specific targets that they are supposed to take down, rather then randomly hunting Jihadis. They don't fire off hundreds of rounds in the space of minutes.
Kind of. Snipers are often used to support patrols and troop movements, and may easily find themselves engaging multiple targets, especially in an urban environment.
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Fistful,
There's a bit of paradigm shift these days with regard to sniper deployment and tactics.
One Shot, One Kill is still the predominant mantra, but even during Kosovo our snipers were working with semiauto precision rifles (including the Arms Tech Interdiction in .300 Win Mag), to engage multiple targets in rapid succession.
In a target-rich environment, this only makes sense.
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I think you were addressing the Micro-B.