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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 06:50:28 PM

Title: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 06:50:28 PM
Strip-search of US girl illegal

The US Supreme Court has ruled that school staff broke the law when they ordered a 13-year-old girl to strip while searching her for painkillers.

The Arizona school, which bans prescription and over-the-counter drugs, suspected Savana Redding, then 13, of carrying ibuprofen.

After no drugs were found in her bag, she had to remove her clothing, and then move her bra and underwear.

However, the court said individuals could not be held liable in a lawsuit.

The school principal acted on a tip-off from another student that Savana was carrying ibuprofen.

Justice David Souter said: "What was missing from the suspected facts that pointed to Savana was any indication of danger to the students from the power of the drugs or their quantity, and any reason to suppose that Savana was carrying pills in her underwear," Associated Press reported.

"We think that the combination of these deficiencies was fatal to finding the search reasonable."

The justices said the lower courts would have to determine whether Safford United School District No. 1 could be held liable.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/8119392.stm

Published: 2009/06/25 15:26:11 GMT

© BBC MMIX

Micro Sez: Finally, sense!

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 25, 2009, 06:51:43 PM
Half sense.  It still allows for the idiocy of no-tolerance policies.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: lupinus on June 25, 2009, 07:02:07 PM
BS.  Everyone of the bastards should be legally liable.

If you think the girl needs to be searched beyond her locker, bag, and emptying her packets they should have to call a police officer to take over from there.

Under no circumstances should school officials be allowed to search beyond a students locker and bags.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Nick1911 on June 25, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
BS.  Everyone of the bastards should be legally liable.

If you think the girl needs to be searched beyond her locker, bag, and emptying her packets they should have to call a police officer to take over from there.

Under no circumstances should school officials be allowed to search beyond a students locker and bags.

Agreed.

The individuals involved should be personally liable.

I though we got rid of "I was just doing my job" with the Nuremberg trials...
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 07:15:23 PM
I thought it was crazy the "take off your shirt and pants" parts was ok, and it was only "unreasonable" when they asked her to pull out her bra and panties.  :O And not holding these bastards liable is a slap in the face.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 25, 2009, 07:17:34 PM
remains to be seen if they are held liable the court didn't rule on that
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 07:18:16 PM
remains to be seen if they are held liable the court didn't rule on that

Perhaps I misread the article, but I was pretty sure it said they couldn't be. Hope I'm wrong tho.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 07:19:31 PM
Oh, no, it's not a perfect ruling. But it puts a lid on the entire "School administrators can do whatever the hell they want, "children" are subhumans" idiocy that we in so many schools.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 25, 2009, 07:21:02 PM
yea the district can still be held liable, maybe  but the court did say the individuals were not liable.   that is weird   kinda like those cases where they find the guy innocent of a crime but guilty of obstruction   how can you obstruct if there is no crime?
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on June 25, 2009, 07:21:39 PM
C&SD:  The individual administrators can't be held liable, but the district as a whole can...


Great way to manufacture a ponzi scheme, IMO.

I'm a principal.  I'll order your daughter to do a strip search if you'll split the civil suit proceedings with me down the middle.  We'll get millions from the district... I'll lose my job but then I'll go buy a thousand acres out in the mountains and live like a king.  And I'll never feel an ounce of heat for my decisions.  In fact, I'll get rewarded.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 07:32:45 PM
Well, AZRedhawk, maybe the districts can avoid such things if they make out strict rules limiting the powers of officials to strip-search children (and I note here that principals are not law enforcement), and then they wouldn't be held liable for people doing arbitrary stuff.

Maybe they can even start respecting the dignity of students - but that'd probably be "utopian" of me.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 07:36:33 PM
Great way to manufacture a ponzi scheme, IMO.

What you describe is fraud, but not a ponzi scheme. Over/mis use of a term robs it of it's effectiveness.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Nick1911 on June 25, 2009, 07:42:22 PM
So, in light of this, for the parents out there; what should you teach your children about dealing with the situation where school administrators tell them to remove their clothes?  :O
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 07:45:43 PM
I don't know how people can ship their kids off to public schools, honestly. Thank God for home-schooling.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Nitrogen on June 25, 2009, 07:47:44 PM
BS.  Everyone of the bastards should be legally liable.

If you think the girl needs to be searched beyond her locker, bag, and emptying her packets they should have to call a police officer to take over from there.

Under no circumstances should school officials be allowed to search beyond a students locker and bags.

It should also require a warrant.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 25, 2009, 07:49:48 PM
I don't know how people can ship their kids off to public schools, honestly. Thank God for home-schooling.

Considering the dems consistently remove choice from the table...........

So, in light of this, for the parents out there; what should you teach your children about dealing with the situation where school administrators tell them to remove their clothes?  :O

My kids already know the unequivocal answer to that.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 07:51:00 PM
Considering the dems consistently remove choice from the table...........

My kids already know the unequivocal answer to that.

Yeah, I realize it's not a viable option for some people. But a lot of people could find an alternative if they tried.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 07:56:54 PM
Quote
Considering the dems consistently remove choice from the table...........

Wasn't homeschooling legal in all 50 states?
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 07:58:18 PM
Found the link. Yes, it is, and relatively unregulated (http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp).
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: lupinus on June 25, 2009, 08:00:33 PM
It should also require a warrant.
It should require the same thing any police search does.  Warrant OR probable cause.  Perhaps I am wrong, last I checked a police search of a person does not require a warrant, only probable cause.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 25, 2009, 08:03:55 PM
Wasn't homeschooling legal in all 50 states?

And how do you propose a single parent household pull off working and homeschooling?  Or dual-income families that don't make enough for one parent to stay home?


 
It should require the same thing and police search does.  Warrant OR probable cause.  Perhaps I am wrong, last I checked a search of a person did not require a warrant, only probable cause.

By the police.  These were school administrators.  Last I checked, they weren't law enforcement.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: lupinus on June 25, 2009, 08:05:42 PM
JJ, thought that would have been clear from my earlier post where I called BS on school admins doing it.

Sorry for any confusion, edited to add the by the police part.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 25, 2009, 08:07:33 PM
JJ, thought that would have been clear from my earlier post where I called BS on school admins doing it.

Sorry for any confusion, edited to add the by the police part.

My bad, I see your earlier post. 
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 09:42:57 PM
JJ: I know it's not a popular opinion, but a double income family could afford it, they just refuse to adjust their lifestyle. I always hate to see people choose material things over their kids best interests. Sad commentary on today's excessive, debt ridden society.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Standing Wolf on June 25, 2009, 10:00:00 PM
Quote
The Arizona school, which bans prescription and over-the-counter drugs, suspected Savana Redding, then 13, of carrying ibuprofen.

So? Is that a violation of the law?
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 25, 2009, 10:13:25 PM
JJ: I know it's not a popular opinion, but a double income family could afford it, they just refuse to adjust their lifestyle. I always hate to see people choose material things over their kids best interests. Sad commentary on today's excessive, debt ridden society.

Not always the truth.  You're putting dual income families into the "two good jobs" box.  Plenty of people around here working multiple crappy jobs just to make ends meet. 

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 25, 2009, 10:26:15 PM
One can never speak in absolutes of course, but generally a cut in lifestyle would make those ends meet with one person working. After Dad got sick, died and was revived in the hospital he was unable to work. Mom raised 6 kids while working a crappy low paying job, homeschooling us, and taking care of Dad. So don't try to tell me a lot of those families couldn't do it; they just aren't prepared to make the needed sacrifices. Whether those sacrifices are worth it is another question that only they can answer. But "We just can't live on one income!" is unmitigated crap in many many cases.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: taurusowner on June 25, 2009, 10:31:51 PM
What was once considered middle class is now often considered party.  I can't remember where I read it, but I do recall seeing that most familes that fall beneath the official "poverty line" have a home or apartment, at least one television, and at least one vehicle.  And many also have cell phones.  Thing like that would be considered wealthy or at least middle class 30 years ago.  It isn't that there are so many people who are truly poor, it's just that there are so many consumer products they want but can't have, thus consider themselves poor.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 25, 2009, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
m raised 6 kids while working a crappy low paying job, homeschooling us, and taking care of Dad.


And here I thought the feat my Mom and Dad carried out in raising me, teaching me English, history, arithmetics, paying for my instruction in various languages (the primary public school was so crap I essentially learned nothing from them even though I went), and then finally breaking and paying for a private school while worknig below minimum wage - I thought that was great. Your mother is awesome.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Boomhauer on June 25, 2009, 10:38:55 PM
Quote
So? Is that a violation of the law?

The schools consider OTC meds the same as marijuana. Zero tolerance, baby! Combine that with the nutty administrators who consider the schools they manage little fiefdoms, and lack of oversight of said administrators...

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: roo_ster on June 25, 2009, 10:42:00 PM
C&SD:  The individual administrators can't be held liable, but the district as a whole can...


Great way to manufacture a ponzi scheme, IMO.

I'm a principal.  I'll order your daughter to do a strip search if you'll split the civil suit proceedings with me down the middle.  We'll get millions from the district... I'll lose my job but then I'll go buy a thousand acres out in the mountains and live like a king.  And I'll never feel an ounce of heat for my decisions.  In fact, I'll get rewarded.

See the (pretty bad) movie Wild Things starring the formerly Mrs. Charlie Sheen's mammaries.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: roo_ster on June 25, 2009, 10:51:12 PM
Maybe they can even start respecting the dignity of students - but that'd probably be "utopian" of me.

You can get down from the cross.  If we absolutely need a libertarian martyr you'll be the first one we call.  Collect.  (Just to make it even more tragic and full of martyr-y goodness.)

 :police:  <-- Martyr Cop says, "No, you don't get one free phone call."

Oh, and a big 'ol "+1" to the Supremes on this one.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 25, 2009, 11:08:36 PM
Ok...homeschooling?  Sorry, no.  My kid has a right to be treated as a human being EVEN if I allow her to go to school.  I'm not going to homeschool my kids because I don't want to.  The fair and just result of this decision in not that my child be treated like a prison inmate. 

It's cases like this that make me want to donate time to the ACLU.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Standing Wolf on June 26, 2009, 12:34:52 AM
Quote
The schools consider OTC meds the same as marijuana.

Does that make it law?

Seems to me those puny little bureaucrats need to be visited by some assault lawyers.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 26, 2009, 01:20:34 AM
Oh, I agree Bridgewalker public schools shouldn't be like this. And the 16th Amendment should be repealed, Social Security should've been laughed down when proposed, and I should be able to buy a full auto suppressed 10/22 over the counter with no paperwork. Should be != actually is.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 01:31:56 AM
Oh, I agree Bridgewalker public schools shouldn't be like this. And the 16th Amendment should be repealed, Social Security should've been laughed down when proposed, and I should be able to buy a full auto suppressed 10/22 over the counter with no paperwork. Should be != actually is.

I disagree that the most appropriate response to a problem with a system is to say that people should simply not use the system.  This holding, for example, is a much better (if less that ideal) response. 

Homeschooling is, in many or most cases, not a good solution.  Not all parents are even halfway decent teachers.  Many schoolteachers aren't either, but at least there's some variety. 
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 26, 2009, 01:37:18 AM
That's just not statistically true. Mark-wise, homeschooled children perform better. And it's really really obvious why, and it has nothing do with schools being bad.

Even an average college student, operating with a single tutored child, can teach a subject better than the average teacher operating with a class of 40.

In terms of how to apply my efforts, it would be easier for me and 2swap to homeschool a child than it would be to fight the educational system on every thing we fight issue on.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 01:39:48 AM
That's just not statistically true. Mark-wise, homeschooled children perform better. And it's really really obvious why, and it has nothing do with schools being bad.

Micro, my issues with homeschooling don't have much to do with grades.  Let it lie.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 26, 2009, 01:55:45 AM
Neither are mine. And now I will stop derailing the thread.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 26, 2009, 02:10:29 AM
I never said we should not fight to make the system better. But it sure sucks for the kids who get sent off to the crappy schools. "Don't worry Timmy, it really should be better than it is!"

The fact that some abusive cultures mis-use homeschooling is sad but hardly an indictment of the concept. That being said, there are a wealth of non-homeschooling options that are preferable. And I absolutely think every parent and concerned person should be fighting tooth and nail to kill the NEA, allow more options for alternative schooling etc.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 02:21:30 AM
The fact that some abusive cultures mis-use homeschooling is sad but hardly an indictment of the concept. That being said, there are a wealth of non-homeschooling options that are preferable. And I absolutely think every parent and concerned person should be fighting tooth and nail to kill the NEA, allow more options for alternative schooling etc.

Totally with you on the NEA.  Fortunately, although this town has crappy regular public schools, there are some good to excellent charter, magnet, and parochial options.  We're actually leaning towards a magnet school that focuses on the performing arts--we've heard some good things and I think some exposure to music and dance early on could be really good for her. 

I wasn't actually thinking of cultural misuse of homeschooling, but of several families and homeschoolees of my acquaintance for whom homeschooling has become an expression of the parents' desire to build small clones.  Liberal or conservative or whatever, too many of the homeschooling families that I know build a micro cult of personality around the parent. 
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 26, 2009, 03:43:44 AM
For the record, I went to a most awesome private school starting mid Grade-9. It was one of these traditional institutions, started in 1863 as a Christian girls' school. It's still heavily Christian, and owned by the Scottish church. They have prayer and everything.

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: HankB on June 26, 2009, 07:11:59 AM
Kids today have no backbone.

In my school days, we respected the legitimate authority of the teachers & administrators, and no kid I know would've consented to a strip search by school bureaucrats; we knew they were NOT police.

Parents today have no backbone.

There's a good chance that any bureaucrat that ordered or participated in a strip search of a student would've spent a couple of months in a full body cast, thanks to a vigorous attitude adjustment administered by outraged parents.

That's proabably why, in 12 years of combined elementary & high school, I never even heard of an attempted strip search by school officials.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Firethorn on June 26, 2009, 09:48:38 AM
What was once considered middle class is now often considered party.

I think you mean poverty.  And I have to agree.

If you went back 60 years -
A significant portion of the country still didn't have electricity.  My grandmother, for example, grew up in a house that was only electrified in her teens.
Iceboxes were still competing with refridgerators
Radios were a luxury - tvs were for the richest family in the town
Cars?  To own one was solidly in the upper middle class.  Two?  You must be rich.
Homes back then - even upper middle class, were tiny compared to the ones built today.
How many people remember party lines for phones?  Where you shared one phone system with a number of your neighbors?

On the cell phone topic, I feel the need to elaborate somewhat - a cheap cell phone plan can be substantially cheaper than a land line today.  Especially if your housing situation is somewhat unsettled.

Of course, many of those living in poverty aren't actually doing so bad, because the index doesn't measure 'non-monetary' income like public housing or food stamps.  Also, I think that many under the poverty line actually make at least some extra, unreported/under the table income.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: zahc on June 26, 2009, 10:21:08 AM
Great, so now when our kids get violated by government employees, instead of them punishing their own, they dip into that taxpayer coffers and dole it back out to us. What incentive does give them to not do the same thing over again? I must have missed it.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 26, 2009, 11:20:36 AM
Totally with you on the NEA.  Fortunately, although this town has crappy regular public schools, there are some good to excellent charter, magnet, and parochial options.  We're actually leaning towards a magnet school that focuses on the performing arts--we've heard some good things and I think some exposure to music and dance early on could be really good for her. 

I'm glad to hear you have options. How will those alternate choices work financially? 

Quote
I wasn't actually thinking of cultural misuse of homeschooling, but of several families and homeschoolees of my acquaintance for whom homeschooling has become an expression of the parents' desire to build small clones.  Liberal or conservative or whatever, too many of the homeschooling families that I know build a micro cult of personality around the parent. 

1. I've never seen or heard of that, and I'd wager I've been a hell of a lot more active in the homeschooling community than you.
2. Bad parents are bad parents. "Too many of the public school parents I know just want to ship their kids off for someone else to raise."  ;/
3. Isn't the entire point of being a parent to attempt to inculcate your values in your child? Are you claiming you raise your children to not hold the same values as you? I'm actually rather confused about what you mean here.

You've had bad experiences? I'm sorry, I really am. But making broad brush insulting statements about a group of people who are willing to sacrifice massive amounts of time, money, and energy trying to do what is best for their children is not an acceptable response.

Great, so now when our kids get violated by government employees, instead of them punishing their own, they dip into that taxpayer coffers and dole it back out to us. What incentive does give them to not do the same thing over again? I must have missed it.

I totally agree. Unless the punishment is brought to bear on the individual(s) responsible, it's nearly pointless.


And here I thought the feat my Mom and Dad carried out in raising me, teaching me English, history, arithmetics, paying for my instruction in various languages (the primary public school was so crap I essentially learned nothing from them even though I went), and then finally breaking and paying for a private school while worknig below minimum wage - I thought that was great. Your mother is awesome.

To be fair, some of the kids were older and helped out a lot. After a fairly short period (year or two maybe?) Dad was able to function fine, even if he couldn't work. But yeah, it was a pretty substantial effort.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Hawkmoon on June 26, 2009, 01:35:38 PM
That's proabably why, in 12 years of combined elementary & high school, I never even heard of an attempted strip search by school officials.

I never did, either.

On the other hand, I'm old enough that a report I had an aspirin tablet in my book bag (we didn't use backpacks in my day) would not have equated to a capital offense. It might have led a teacher to say, "Can I have one? I have a headache."

Our society has become overly paranoid (if there is such a thing) about DRUGS! For example, I take a very light dose of a blood pressure medication. So light, in fact, that although I can buy it over the counter when visiting my wife's native country, the smallest tablet they sell is twice what I take. In the U.S. I get my meds from the VA, and they send it in a 90-day supply at a time. They WILL NOT refill the prescription until I'm down to the last week's quantity in the bottle. Like there's a huge street market for 25mg tablets of Atenolol. Riiiiiight.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 26, 2009, 03:29:33 PM
So, in light of this, for the parents out there; what should you teach your children about dealing with the situation where school administrators tell them to remove their clothes?  :O

Same thing as dealing with any other form of unlawful search or attempted sexual assault.  Resist as needed, evade, run, call the cops.  Explain that they will never get in trouble from their parents for defending themselves.


I don't think schools have magically legal right to detain children or stop them from calling their parents or the police if they are being unlawfully searched or sexually assaulted.  I'm probably wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if it was otherwise. 


Not that I'm blaming the parents or the kid whatsoever, but the kid should not have complied.  The kid was probably scared out of her wits, and I doubt the parents ever figured the school would intentionally unlawfully search or sexually assault their kid.  These days, it should be something you should teach your kids.

I try to teach my kids (the ones I play adopted Uncle to, or if I have any of my own) that no one has a right to do anything to their bodies that they're uncomfy with.  If anyone does, do what you have to do to get away and immediately call parents, police or Crazy Uncle RevDisk.  It's happened twice.  Once with an aggressive dog, the other when an adult threw my buddy's kid down a flight of stairs. 


Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 05:21:31 PM
1. I've never seen or heard of that, and I'd wager I've been a hell of a lot more active in the homeschooling community than you.
2. Bad parents are bad parents. "Too many of the public school parents I know just want to ship their kids off for someone else to raise."  ;/
3. Isn't the entire point of being a parent to attempt to inculcate your values in your child? Are you claiming you raise your children to not hold the same values as you? I'm actually rather confused about what you mean here.

You've had bad experiences? I'm sorry, I really am. But making broad brush insulting statements about a group of people who are willing to sacrifice massive amounts of time, money, and energy trying to do what is best for their children is not an acceptable response.

Um, Balog?  Why do you care?  I didn't make any broad brush insulting statements at all.  I make a statement about the feeling I get from several families I know.  Homeschooling communities are pretty diverse.  Maybe the communities around here that I have explored are different from those you have experienced. 

I don't like the attitudes of many of the homeschooling families I know.  Deal with it.  And no, I don't have to agree with their choice merely because their choice costs them "massive amounts of time, money, and energy."  I really don't understand why this is an issue.  This whole conversation is starting to bear a startling resemblance to the kind of mommy-board competitive parenting bs that sent me running to APS in the first place. 

I don't have any objection to anyone else homeschooling.  I don't plan to homeschool.  I think it's often a bad idea.  You *seriously* think it makes sense to mess with me about this?  I'm kinda' surprised.  Seems out of character.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 26, 2009, 05:31:00 PM
Allow me to quote you to explain why it bothers me Bridgewalker.

Quote from: Bridgewalker
Second, you should educate yourself more thoroughly before you draw conclusions regarding issues of which you are clearly largely ignorant.  Especially when those conclusions involve someone else's family.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Strings on June 26, 2009, 05:51:34 PM
I'm with RevDisk on this...

I've talked to parents whose children have been "violated" in one way or another. And I always ask them (incredulously), "Why aren't you taking action?"

And it saddens me that, quite often, they just reply with some form of "complaining wouldn't make any difference"... *headdesk*
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
Allow me to quote you to explain why it bothers me Bridgewalker.

Balog, get over yourself.  I am allowed to dislike the idea of homeschooling.  Even if you like homeschooling. 

I am even allowed to make a determination as to whether I want to homeschool or not without having spent a couple decades doing it.  That quote is utterly irrelevant. 
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 26, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Balog, get over yourself.  I am allowed to dislike the idea of homeschooling.  Even if you like homeschooling. 

I am even allowed to make a determination as to whether I want to homeschool or not without having spent a couple decades doing it.  That quote is utterly irrelevant. 

You are indeed entitled to your opinion.  But you could make your points in a more polite and civil manner.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: BridgeRunner on June 26, 2009, 10:23:13 PM
You are indeed entitled to your opinion.  But you could make your points in a more polite and civil manner.

I believe I did, until Balog decided to attack me repeatedly.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 26, 2009, 10:30:16 PM
Enough.  Move on.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 26, 2009, 10:47:16 PM
I believe I did, until Balog decided to attack me repeatedly.

Again, you are entitled to your beliefs.   But you still could have been more polite.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: seeker_two on June 26, 2009, 10:56:58 PM
=(  mommy....daddy.....please don't fight.....  =(
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: LadySmith on June 26, 2009, 11:14:32 PM
Now back to our regularly scheduled topic...

I've talked to parents whose children have been "violated" in one way or another. And I always ask them (incredulously), "Why aren't you taking action?"

And it saddens me that, quite often, they just reply with some form of "complaining wouldn't make any difference"... *headdesk*

Therefore the misdeeds continue because parents like that do nothing to stop them. That is sad.  =( :mad:

I also agree with HankB:

Kids today have no backbone.

Parents today have no backbone.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Stand_watie on June 26, 2009, 11:44:12 PM
     This makes me think of and contrast an incident that occured in my (incredibly rural, parochial) school in jr. high. A girl in eighth grade had packed for a weekend at a friend's house, and brought a change of clothing, toothbrush, .22 caliber revolver, etc. with her to school, for the weekend. Our teacher, who was a no-nonsense type of lady, heard from someone that the girl had brought a gun to school. Confronted the girl (even though, as far as I know there was no "no-weapons" policy at the school) and confiscated the firearm until the end of the school day, and only was willing to give it back to the girl "in the care of" her friend's mother, that afternoon after school was over.

       Imagine that scenario today...would lead on Drudge.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 26, 2009, 11:53:19 PM

I disagree with Hank.  Not every kid lacks backbone.  But look at the world they are inherienting.  They have never known an uncorrupt politician, an authority that did not view every citizen with hostility and suspicion, nor a future that looks other than bleak.   Ask any kid under 30 if they expect to ever see a dime of social security, of which they pay 14% of every paycheck.

As for parents, I don't know if I'm qualified to judge.  I have seen so few excellent parents, and so many broken families.

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2009, 01:36:58 AM
I don't care what you do with your kids. That's not relevant.

Your dismissal of "most people who homeschool" as whackjobs is what we're talking about.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: taurusowner on June 27, 2009, 01:40:50 AM
I disagree with Hank.  Not every kid lacks backbone.  But look at the world they are inherienting.  They have never known an uncorrupt politician, an authority that did not view every citizen with hostility and suspicion, nor a future that looks other than bleak.   Ask any kid under 30 if they expect to ever see a dime of social security, of which they pay 14% of every paycheck.

As for parents, I don't know if I'm qualified to judge.  I have seen so few excellent parents, and so many broken families.



Well I think a lot of us expect to get back some Social Security.  That doesn't mean it will actually happen.  Still, there are some young people who really have faith in the government and BHO, to the point where if he says they'll be getting their check once a month, they really think they will.  As for myself, if there is still a United States the way we know it by the time I'm in the Social Security age bracket, I'll be impressed.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Stand_watie on June 27, 2009, 02:19:45 AM
For the record, I went to a most awesome private school starting mid Grade-9. It was one of these traditional institutions, started in 1863 as a Christian girls' school. It's still heavily Christian, and owned by the Scottish church. They have prayer and everything.



I'm curious about that. I thought you were Israeli? Are there Presbytarian schools in Israel that date to 1863?
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
There is one.

Tabeetha School, Jaffa. It is one of the oldest educational institutions still standing in the country. I believe it competes only with the Jesuit school in Jerusalem. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Stand_watie on June 27, 2009, 03:11:25 AM
There is one.

Tabeetha School, Jaffa. It is one of the oldest educational institutions still standing in the country. I believe it competes only with the Jesuit school in Jerusalem. I could be wrong.

O.K. I'm glad that a Christian school in Jaffa treated you well enough that you have fond memories of your educational experience. I did not know that Christian  modern western "missionary"  ventures  in Israel dated that far back. I'd have guessed (if you asked me before I read your post) that circa 1920's or 1930's were earliest ventures of the type.

Off topic, but BTW, Presbytarian and Jesuit institutions in America are a minority but generally considered by the most "Genteel" class of Americans as preferred  parochial schools....
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Uncle Bubba on June 27, 2009, 03:32:11 AM

So, in light of this, for the parents out there; what should you teach your children about dealing with the situation where school administrators tell them to remove their clothes?  :O


In my case, I had "the talk" with my oldest daughter about this when she started school, and we go over it again at the beginning of every school year. Her reply to all such requests and demands is to be "No. Call my parents or let me call them." If she isn't allowed to call and the school won't, she is to continue to refuse to cooperate. At some point her mother and I will be informed of the situation, and at that point there will be hell to pay.

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 27, 2009, 08:18:33 AM
Again, you are entitled to your beliefs.   But you still could have been more polite.
I don't care what you do with your kids. That's not relevant.

Your dismissal of "most people who homeschool" as whackjobs is what we're talking about.

Not sure what part of move on isn't being gotten.  Several of you weren't polite, get over it; continued ad hominem is just going to get the thread closed.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Balog on June 27, 2009, 11:48:19 AM
Sorry about that Jamis, I was (am) posting from my phone and replied to an older version of the thread I had loaded. I've taken it to pm.

Micro: are those non-Jewish institutions treated fairly by the .gov there? The way you describe your .gov it seems like they'd not be.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Thor on June 27, 2009, 11:59:18 AM
By law, guns are banned in schools. I can understand some repercussions for bringing a gun to school. However, was there an actual LAW passed that says a student can't bring OTC meds to school?? I don't know of one, but I could be wrong. Where does the school get off making it's own laws?? After all, it's the "PUBLIC School System". How can they enforce situations that are contrary to State and Federal Law?? Perhaps this attitude needs to be addressed. NO MORE NANNY STATISM !!!
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 27, 2009, 12:25:36 PM
By law, guns are banned in schools. I can understand some repercussions for bringing a gun to school. However, was there an actual LAW passed that says a student can't bring OTC meds to school?? I don't know of one, but I could be wrong. Where does the school get off making it's own laws?? After all, it's the "PUBLIC School System". How can they enforce situations that are contrary to State and Federal Law?? Perhaps this attitude needs to be addressed. NO MORE NANNY STATISM !!!

Its all a result of zero tolerance policies being tolerated.  School administrators aren't required to think.  Treating a kid the same for bringing Ibuprofen as another kid who brings meth is insanity.  Much the same as elementary kids being expelled for bringing a GIjoe toy gun, applying the same policy as if the kid brought his dad's class III in.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 27, 2009, 12:56:57 PM
Its all a result of zero tolerance policies being tolerated.  School administrators aren't required to think.  Treating a kid the same for bringing Ibuprofen as another kid who brings meth is insanity.  Much the same as elementary kids being expelled for bringing a GIjoe toy gun, applying the same policy as if the kid brought his dad's class III in.

It was worse than that 10 years ago when I was in HS.  I heard of getting suspended for bringing in a metal butterknife in one's lunch. 

My favorite policy is the violence policy at every school I am familiar with.  Both parties are punished, and in most cases, punished equally.  If someone jumps on you, starts beating the every livin' heck out of you and you do absolutely nothing, you got suspended as well. 



Interestingly, this very policy was what lead me on a spiritual, moral and philosophically journey.  I was a pacifist as a kid.  I didn't so much disagree with violence on a moral level (that too), but mostly I thought it was an insanely inefficient means of resolving issues.  Mind you, I hit 6 by the time I was 14 or so, so my nickname was "the gentle giant".  You'd think size alone would deter bullies.  Quite the contrary, they thought it was hysterical to punch or kick someone literally twice their size who would not do anything in return.

So, one day a kid was assaulting me and it dawned on me that I was wrong.  Pacifist is the inefficient and immoral path, not violence.  In an instant, I changed my entire spiritual outlook and decided violence was the correct spiritual path. So I broke the kid's arm, two ribs, fractured his skull by ramming it into a cinder block wall repeatedly, and then threw him down a flight of concrete stairs.  Violent, sure.  But one act of concentrated violence stopped every future act of violence.  Viola, efficiency.   My philosophy changed to NEVER attack first, but always reply to an attack with overwhelming and extremely disportional violence in order to stop future violence.  It has served me quite well in my career and life thus far. 

Had it not been for the Lord of the Flies environment fostered by public school policies, I would be a less moral and philosophical person than I am today.   
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: HankB on June 27, 2009, 01:53:14 PM
My favorite policy is the violence policy at every school I am familiar with.  Both parties are punished, and in most cases, punished equally.  If someone jumps on you, starts beating the every livin' heck out of you and you do absolutely nothing, you got suspended as well.
Sounds like you can get rid of the principal by jumping him and beating the ever livin' heck out of him. You may get suspended, but he will, too, right? =D
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: RevDisk on June 27, 2009, 04:51:11 PM
Sounds like you can get rid of the principal by jumping him and beating the ever livin' heck out of him. You may get suspended, but he will, too, right? =D

Teachers aren't afforded completely self-defense either.  They can indeed get in trouble if they physically restraint or fight back against a violent student.   
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: MicroBalrog on June 27, 2009, 06:00:33 PM
Revdisk, this sounds horribly like what Israeli schools have become. Though the government is planning to reform make them worse.
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Uncle Bubba on June 27, 2009, 08:11:53 PM

It was worse than that 10 years ago when I was in HS.  I heard of getting suspended for bringing in a metal butterknife in one's lunch. 

My favorite policy is the violence policy at every school I am familiar with.  Both parties are punished, and in most cases, punished equally.  If someone jumps on you, starts beating the every livin' heck out of you and you do absolutely nothing, you got suspended as well. 



Interestingly, this very policy was what lead me on a spiritual, moral and philosophically journey.  I was a pacifist as a kid.  I didn't so much disagree with violence on a moral level (that too), but mostly I thought it was an insanely inefficient means of resolving issues.  Mind you, I hit 6 by the time I was 14 or so, so my nickname was "the gentle giant".  You'd think size alone would deter bullies.  Quite the contrary, they thought it was hysterical to punch or kick someone literally twice their size who would not do anything in return.

So, one day a kid was assaulting me and it dawned on me that I was wrong.  Pacifist is the inefficient and immoral path, not violence.  In an instant, I changed my entire spiritual outlook and decided violence was the correct spiritual path. So I broke the kid's arm, two ribs, fractured his skull by ramming it into a cinder block wall repeatedly, and then threw him down a flight of concrete stairs.  Violent, sure.  But one act of concentrated violence stopped every future act of violence.  Viola, efficiency.   My philosophy changed to NEVER attack first, but always reply to an attack with overwhelming and extremely disportional violence in order to stop future violence.  It has served me quite well in my career and life thus far. 

Had it not been for the Lord of the Flies environment fostered by public school policies, I would be a less moral and philosophical person than I am today.

I wasn't a pacifist, I just didn't want to be messed with at school ( I had plenty enough mental and physical abuse at home, I just wanted a respite from it somewhere), and being bigger than most others from 7th grade on, I was afraid that if I reacted too strongly I would really hurt someone. Consequently, like you, I got picked on and messed with mercilessly. Until early in 10th grade when I'd finally had enough and beat the hell out of a kid who sucker-punched me in the hallway during class change. Not to the extent you did yours but I got the point across nonetheless. The remainder of my school years were peaceful. Would that home had been, too.


Quote
...always reply to an attack with overwhelming and extremely dis[pro]portional violence in order to stop future violence.

That applies from personal matters all the way up the ladder to international affairs. To put it in the vernacular of my Southern upbringing, "Mess with me, and you've bought the whole can of whoop-ass." I have tried for years to explain that to more than one person, and especially for several recent years to two Web-friends of mine who live in the UK. To them, and to too many others, "proportional response" is the only moral use of strength and violence. Unfortunately for that point of view, proportional response is considered by barbarians to be weakness. They act and react accordingly and the cycle continues, when it doesn't have to.

Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Ned Hamford on June 27, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
I wasn't actually thinking of cultural misuse of homeschooling, but of several families and homeschoolees of my acquaintance for whom homeschooling has become an expression of the parents' desire to build small clones. 

That view is astoundingly on the mark for my own plans...
 =D
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Strings on June 28, 2009, 12:26:26 AM
Ok, I have to ask...

Are you shooting for clones, Ned, or individuals who have beliefs similar to yours? One's normal (and human nature), the other's unhealthy...
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Stand_watie on June 28, 2009, 12:58:59 AM
test post
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Ned Hamford on June 28, 2009, 09:27:23 AM
Ok, I have to ask...
Are you shooting for clones, Ned, or individuals who have beliefs similar to yours? One's normal (and human nature), the other's unhealthy...

The gf and I have an absurdly elaborate running joke about little Ned Clones of an umpa loompa like quality.  In that fantasy world I've also grown so obese as to be a combination of jabba the hut and the god emperor of dune.  To share a tender moment, fairly often I will put my arms above my head like a crazed baboon and threaten to crush her like a Duncan. 

We are a very special couple.

Also in the spirit of jest, I plan things for the eventual childen... things like not allowing contractions in the house and suppressing knowledge of dessert till they come of an age they can appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: Nitrogen on June 28, 2009, 04:35:54 PM
Teachers aren't afforded completely self-defense either.  They can indeed get in trouble if they physically restraint or fight back against a violent student.   


Not true, at least not in all instances.
My wife's a special ed teacher, and is actually certified in restraining violent/unruly kids.
And yes, she's in Texas now, but got her certification in *gasp* CALIFORNIA!
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: seeker_two on June 29, 2009, 06:48:16 AM
Violent, sure.  But one act of concentrated violence stopped every future act of violence.  Viola, efficiency.   My philosophy changed to NEVER attack first, but always reply to an attack with overwhelming and extremely disportional violence in order to stop future violence.  It has served me quite well in my career and life thus far. 
 

Sounds like the same "enlightenment" I had in high school, but in the pre-zero-tolerance days. That was probably the only reason I didn't get suspended.

Not true, at least not in all instances.
My wife's a special ed teacher, and is actually certified in restraining violent/unruly kids.
And yes, she's in Texas now, but got her certification in *gasp* CALIFORNIA!

Is she certified in PMAB or HWC?  I've done both, and I've found HWC safer and more effective...which is probably why the state school I work at still uses PMAB....  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Strip-search of US girl illegal
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on June 30, 2009, 07:16:36 PM
Revdisk and Uncle Bubba,  i was on the complete opposite end of the size scale. didn't weigh 100 pounds till i was almost 17 and found the same techniques vis a vis violence worked well for me too. i jusy got an earlier start. and was not above a premptive strike.  at some point it ussually becomes apparent that there will be violence so lets get it started. to quote jack tatum it hurts more to be hit than to hit. and he who hits first often hits onliest