Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on July 16, 2009, 10:51:37 AM
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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Devices-that-warn-drivers-of-speed_-red-light-cameras-draw-police-ire-7930619-50074717.html
Area drivers looking to outwit police speed traps and traffic cameras are using an iPhone application and other global positioning system devices that pinpoint the location of the cameras.
That has irked D.C. police chief Cathy Lanier, who promised her officers would pick up their game to counteract the devices, which can also help drivers dodge sobriety checkpoints.
"I think that's the whole point of this program," she told The Examiner. "It's designed to circumvent law enforcement -- law enforcement that is designed specifically to save lives."
The new technology streams to iPhones and global positioning system devices, sounding off an alarm as drivers approach speed or red-light cameras.
Lanier said the technology is a "cowardly tactic" and "people who overly rely on those and break the law anyway are going to get caught" in one way or another.
The greater D.C. area has 290 red-light and speed cameras -- comprising nearly 10 percent of all traffic cameras in the U.S., according to estimates by a camera-tracking database called the POI Factory.
Lanier said the cameras have decreased traffic deaths. Red-light and speed cameras have been a hot topic in Montgomery County since Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley signed a bill in May allowing local governments to place speed cameras in school and highway construction zones.
Montgomery County police did not respond to calls and e-mails for this story.
Ralph Ganoe of Silver Spring said he uses detection software from a Washington-based company, PhantomAlert, to avoid speed traps and crowded intersections.
"Well, my pocket has money in it," Ganoe quipped, when asked about the software's impact on his driving record. "Everybody's got a heavy foot. ... Now I don't have to worry about where [the cameras] are at."
PhantomAlert mimics radar detectors — which are outlawed in D.C. and Virginia — by alerting drivers of nearby enforcement "points of interest" via global positioning system devices. PhantomAlert keeps up to date on traffic enforcement through its users, who contribute information online.
Founder and CEO of PhantomAlert Joe Scott claimed nine out of 10 police departments across the country support his software.
"If police come against us, it's going to make them look like they are only [after] revenue" from the camera-generated citations, he said.
Photo radar tickets generated nearly $1 billion in revenues for D.C. during fiscal years 2005 to 2008.
In the current fiscal year, Montgomery County expects to make $29 million from its red light and speed cameras. Lanier said efforts to outlaw the software would be too difficult.
She said, "with the Internet and all the new technology, it's almost impossible to stop the flow of information."
I find it funny that the police chief is complaining that people are slowing down. Isn't that the point. As for the last line of the article, we don't want them to be able to stop the flow of information. That is a good thing.
The best quote from the comments at the bottom is "We don't need a police chief - just put a camera in her chair staring at the chair in front of her desk." :D
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Aren't there laws in some states which mandate that speed enforcement should be directed only towards safety, and not towards fine collection?
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Awesome.
PhantomAlert looks like it isn't quite "live" enough though.
It runs on Magellan/Garmin/TomTom GPS units. These don't have internet feeds. So, you have to sync at home or the hotel for your road trip, then run all day on stale info.
This needs to stream to GPS-equipped cell phones. This would make me buy an unlimited data package for my phone rather than just having voice service. Integrate it with VZ Navigator and iPhone directly.
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once the gov't gets 10 million dollars a year from speed fines,
what will they do if the people start behaving "properly" and they loose revenue?
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If I were a fascist-prig police chief though, I would just make a bunch of false claims of speed traps all over my jurisdiction to whitewash the effect of real speed traps.
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once the gov't gets 10 million dollars a year from speed fines,
what will they do if the people start behaving "properly" and they loose revenue?
Ramp up their tax mining operations against tobacco users, gun owners, et. al.
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once the gov't gets 10 million dollars a year from speed fines,
what will they do if the people start behaving "properly" and they loose revenue?
Reduce the speed limit.
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Never stand between government and free money.
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She said, "with the Internet and all the new technology, it's almost impossible to stop the flow of information."
Oh darn. :rolleyes:
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpremium1.uploadit.org%2FdocZox%2F%2Ftron.jpg&hash=d5a5f5ee99eb5865c6e32882cca4db587ba0b33d)
funny thing on the DC redlight camera ticket there is no where to check,
you screwed up, this is not my vehicle
you only get a proper contact phone number after the fine doubles
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This needs to stream to GPS-equipped cell phones. This would make me buy an unlimited data package for my phone rather than just having voice service. Integrate it with VZ Navigator and iPhone directly.
Even better:
1. We figure out what kind of radio modem the police in a locality are using.
2. We set up radio receivers at 3 or more points in the city which are tuned to the frequency of the radios. These locations contain the radio receiver which streams data real time into a PC. Atomic clocks may also be needed on each site.
3. The three sites send data into to a centralized server over the internet, which includes the packet, and the timestamps which the listening location heard the packet.
4. The server triangulates the location of the packet, and marks it on a publicly viewable map.
:angel:
Hey RevDisk - wanna do a project with me? :laugh:
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i figured duping the mayors license plate and having 450 tickets issued to his home address might bring the tar up to temperature
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Atomic clocks? What's wrong with NTP? Is cheeep.
Problem with the radio modem: Our fixed camera installations are hardwired, I believe. Cycle cops don't stay live-connected, they just write paper tickets. Nothing to detect aside from laser or whatever they use as a speed gun. Mobile photo vans may transmit on cellular, or they may just log locally and then get synchronized when they go back to base.
Need to make the submission of a new speed trap a single-step button on your cell phone that pulls your GPS coordinates and uploads the information to a subscription based server. Only subscribers can report... since only they have the software and police departments are unlikely to spend money to deliberately confound the database. Perhaps individual bike cops, but not departments.
If you see a trend of false reports, you have a clause in the contract that states LEO's are not allowed to purchase the software with the intent of confounding the system. Seek personal civil liability. After all, they agreed to the contract when they signed up. EULAs suck, but maybe they can work FOR us once in a while.
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Anyone interested in throwing together a SourceForge project for this... targeting Windows Mobile devices, iPhone, Blackberry and possibly VZ Navigator?
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Atomic clocks? What's wrong with NTP? Is cheeep.
True! HP 5071A's aren't exactly a dime a dozen...
Problem with the radio modem: Our fixed camera installations are hardwired, I believe. Cycle cops don't stay live-connected, they just write paper tickets. Nothing to detect aside from laser or whatever they use as a speed gun. Mobile photo vans may transmit on cellular, or they may just log locally and then get synchronized when they go back to base.
This is true - it's not fool proof and it won't work for red-light cameras or speed cameras. But, publishing a real time map of all the departments cruiser locations would make them freak out, which would be worth it, IMO. I don't think there's anything illegal about doing so. Even so, radio receivers are passive devices.
Need to make the submission of a new speed trap a single-step button on your cell phone that pulls your GPS coordinates and uploads the information to a subscription based server. Only subscribers can report... since only they have the software and police departments are unlikely to spend money to deliberately confound the database. Perhaps individual bike cops, but not departments.
If you see a trend of false reports, you have a clause in the contract that states LEO's are not allowed to purchase the software with the intent of confounding the system. Seek personal civil liability. After all, they agreed to the contract when they signed up. EULAs suck, but maybe they can work FOR us once in a while.
I agree.
Anyone ever coded for a cell phone? I've done so for Windows Mobile before. :angel:
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Anyone interested in throwing together a SourceForge project for this... targeting Windows Mobile devices, iPhone, Blackberry and possibly VZ Navigator?
I'd be down for it. We need to discuss architiceture.
And, we should probably stop hijacking this thread.
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Ditto on Windows Mobile.
And, I'm a DBA and database developer. I can come up with a workable model, I think, for the server.
I'm trying to find out if there are developer resources for the LG Chocolate, since I JUST got this phone and retired my old Windows Mobile phone.
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Heck, our city is trying to get all our LEOs GPS-tagged so that we can check their location real-time in a google map application.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legaljuice.com%2Fmotorcycle%2520rider%2520speed%2520camera%2520flipping%2520bird%2520finger%2520fuck%2520you%2520off.jpg&hash=cce09c36943adbc0133ba6ecb97747d13fa2f474)
This would be fun to do to a speed camera.
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This is true - it's not fool proof and it won't work for red-light cameras or speed cameras. But, publishing a real time map of all the departments cruiser locations would make them freak out, which would be worth it, IMO. I don't think there's anything illegal about doing so. Even so, radio receivers are passive devices.
So are radar detectors. Yet they're illegal in Virginia and (I believe) DC, and maybe somewhere else as well. (Which is absurd, because these laws basically prohibit the passive detection of EM radiation for the purpose of avoiding law enforcement. By the same premise, they could argue that it's illegal to look for cops with your eyes, and slow down if you see them. ;/)
You can bet money that a system like you describe would get put on the fast-track for banning. It could quite reasonably be shown to increase the risk to officers' safety, when used by someone who is intent on something other than avoiding speed traps.
-BP
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Somewhere I read that banning radar detectors violates an FCC law prohibiting the banning of radio receivers of any kind, and hence any state law that actually bans them is illegal. Can't remember though; might have been here.
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Somewhere I read that banning radar detectors violates an FCC law prohibiting the banning of radio receivers of any kind, and hence any state law that actually bans them is illegal. Can't remember though; might have been here.
That may very well be the case, but if it is, no one in Virginia has (to my knowledge) successfully challenged the law on those grounds. If they had, then VA would not still have "Radar detectors illegal" posted on prominent signs on all major highways entering the commonwealth.
-BP
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Even better:
1. We figure out what kind of radio modem the police in a locality are using.
2. We set up radio receivers at 3 or more points in the city which are tuned to the frequency of the radios. These locations contain the radio receiver which streams data real time into a PC. Atomic clocks may also be needed on each site.
3. The three sites send data into to a centralized server over the internet, which includes the packet, and the timestamps which the listening location heard the packet.
4. The server triangulates the location of the packet, and marks it on a publicly viewable map.
:angel:
Hey RevDisk - wanna do a project with me? :laugh:
Uhm... Hey, why ask solely me to help conduct electronic/information warfare against an oppressive govt entity? My name ain't Oswald, you know. ;)
And besides, mobile data terminals are easier to trace. You just find out the vendor (there's a few major MDT mfg) and you know the frequency band. Just need a spectrum analyzer to lookie at said band for a while and you can probably find a control frequency that's nice n' steady. Couple, not many, use conventional cell phone modems. That'd make stuff problematic, but not impossible.
Once you find a nice single frequency to watch, you set up clusters of dual or triple antennas. You'll need to do some testing to optimize the locations of the antenna clusters. Hook them up to an internet or packet radio rig. No need to precision timing, you're just using direction finding. Can't realistically just do three really senstive really big antennas, you need clusters of smaller antennas. The antenna module can do localized calculations (very simple to do) and just report direction in degrees and distance. You just need fairly precise coords for the base station, then have the base station mod that coord by the info from the antenna array module.
It's really easy to do. We made our own Early Warning Detection system back in college. Needed them for protection.
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Lanier said the technology is a "cowardly tactic"
Any less "cowardly" than setting up remote cameras, or hiding a guy with a radar gun behind a tree or billboard? :rolleyes:
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Uhm... Hey, why ask solely me to help conduct electronic/information warfare against an oppressive govt entity? My name ain't Oswald, you know. ;)
Out of anyone on here, I figured you'd have the knowledge and skill set to pull it off.
And besides, mobile data terminals are easier to trace. You just find out the vendor (there's a few major MDT mfg) and you know the frequency band. Just need a spectrum analyzer to lookie at said band for a while and you can probably find a control frequency that's nice n' steady. Couple, not many, use conventional cell phone modems. That'd make stuff problematic, but not impossible.
Once you find a nice single frequency to watch, you set up clusters of dual or triple antennas. You'll need to do some testing to optimize the locations of the antenna clusters. Hook them up to an internet or packet radio rig. No need to precision timing, you're just using direction finding. Can't realistically just do three really senstive really big antennas, you need clusters of smaller antennas. The antenna module can do localized calculations (very simple to do) and just report direction in degrees and distance. You just need fairly precise coords for the base station, then have the base station mod that coord by the info from the antenna array module.
It's really easy to do. We made our own Early Warning Detection system back in college. Needed them for protection.
Point proven! =D
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She said, "with the Internet and all the new technology, it's almost impossible to stop the flow of information."
You can't stop the signal.
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"I think that's the whole point of this program," she told The Examiner. "It's designed to circumvent law enforcement -- law enforcement that is designed specifically to save lives."
Funny....if that's true, why not give 100% of the fine to a crime victim charity?.... :laugh:
Chief Lanier needs to get back to searching for the "mysterious white van" like her predecessor.... ;/
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She said, "with the Internet and all the new technology, it's almost impossible to stop the flow of information."
The way she says it makes it seem like some sort of bad thing...
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You can't stop the signal.
Win. =D
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You can't stop the signal.
Let me see if I understand...
Chief Lanier is the Operator. Skilled, but lacks in humanity, believes that by doing 'evil deeds' that one accomplishes good goals.
Interwebz are the Reevers. Hordes of incoherient, screaming, mutilated zealots armed with an impressive amount of DIY weaponry.
Nick is Mal. Trying to bring goodness and justice to the universe. By suckering the screaming hordes into neutralizing the Alliance, err... DC Police.
Uhm, yep. Sounds pretty accurate. Gods, I think that potentially makes me Jayne. Well, if you can't do something smart, do something right.
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Let me see if I understand...
Chief Lanier is the Operator. Skilled, but lacks in humanity, believes that by doing 'evil deeds' that one accomplishes good goals.
Interwebz are the Reevers. Hordes of incoherient, screaming, mutilated zealots armed with an impressive amount of DIY weaponry.
Nick is Mal. Trying to bring goodness and justice to the universe. By suckering the screaming hordes into neutralizing the Alliance, err... DC Police.
Uhm, yep. Sounds pretty accurate. Gods, I think that potentially makes me Jayne. Well, if you can't do something smart, do something right.
We sure don't pay you to talk pretty. =D
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http://www.trapster.com
A basic, free iPhone and Crackberry app similar to what Nick and I are talking about. It has some limitations that I see right off the bat in its arrangement, though.
I'm gonna try and 1-up it.
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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Devices-that-warn-drivers-of-speed_-red-light-cameras-draw-police-ire-7930619-50074717.html
I find it funny that the police chief is complaining that people are slowing down. Isn't that the point. As for the last line of the article, we don't want them to be able to stop the flow of information. That is a good thing.
The best quote from the comments at the bottom is "We don't need a police chief - just put a camera in her chair staring at the chair in front of her desk." :D
No, it's about money and power. They don't really care if people slow down, they want the revenue and by someone alerting people to the speed traps, they don't get their money.
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Gods, I think that potentially makes me Jayne. Well, if you can't do something smart, do something right.
My days of not taking you seriously have definitely come to a middle.
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Let me see if I understand...
Chief Lanier is the Operator. Skilled, but lacks in humanity, believes that by doing 'evil deeds' that one accomplishes good goals.
Interwebz are the Reevers. Hordes of incoherient, screaming, mutilated zealots armed with an impressive amount of DIY weaponry.
Nick is Mal. Trying to bring goodness and justice to the universe. By suckering the screaming hordes into neutralizing the Alliance, err... DC Police.
Uhm, yep. Sounds pretty accurate. Gods, I think that potentially makes me Jayne. Well, if you can't do something smart, do something right.
"Let's go be bad guys!" =D
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If y'all decide to 1-up Trapster, PLEASE do a version for Crackberry (and let me know when it's ready)!
And yeah... I can picture Rev as Jayne
"Which one do you think?"
"The ugly one"
"Umm... think you can be more specific?"
:laugh:
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If y'all decide to 1-up Trapster, PLEASE do a version for Crackberry (and let me know when it's ready)!
This. Hell, I'd pay for such a thing as Nick and Rev were desfribing.
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Ok, I have to ask: how DOES one "desfribe" something?
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Very carefully. :P
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Even better:
1. We figure out what kind of radio modem the police in a locality are using.
2. We set up radio receivers at 3 or more points in the city which are tuned to the frequency of the radios. These locations contain the radio receiver which streams data real time into a PC. Atomic clocks may also be needed on each site.
3. The three sites send data into to a centralized server over the internet, which includes the packet, and the timestamps which the listening location heard the packet.
4. The server triangulates the location of the packet, and marks it on a publicly viewable map.
:angel:
Hey RevDisk - wanna do a project with me? :laugh:
You know I kicked this idea around years ago but never had the knowledge base to tackle the project.
But hey if you need a receiver node up here in NWNJ let me know.
I practically have a data center running here.
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Please tell me we're not advocating doing something illegal here on APS.
Thank you.
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Please tell me we're not advocating doing something illegal here on APS.
Thank you.
We're not advocating anything illegal. There's nothing illegal about sharing the position of speed traps, sobriety checkpoints, etc...
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Not really illegal....just "smuggling a truckload of Coors beer from Texas to Big Enos' place with Sheriff Buford T. Justice in hot pursuit" kinda illegal.... ;)
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Understood.
However, if radar warning receivers are illegal in some jurisdictions, is tapping into a speedtrap camera's network connection going to pass the judge's scrutiny?
IOW, choose your battles carefully, and if you think it may not be legit, let's not broadcast it on a popular RKBA forum.
That's not saying I like red-light cameras, but I am keeping the forum owner's interests in mind.
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Please tell me we're not advocating doing something illegal here on APS.
Thank you.
Cops are public servants and thus have no reason to believe there not being watched.
Everything people are describing here is passive reception, not illegal.
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However, if radar warning receivers are illegal in some jurisdictions, is tapping into a speedtrap camera's network connection going to pass the judge's scrutiny?
We're not 'tapping', we're triangulating location based on radio traffic - that's not illegal. If we started transmitting packets, we'd be in trouble.
Red light cameras wouldn't be tracked by this - they're much more static. Mostly speed trap cameras.
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Radar/laser warning receivers are passive, and are still illegal in some jurisdictions.
Be careful, that's all I'm saying. Don't read too much into it.
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Please tell me we're not advocating doing something illegal here on APS.
Thank you.
Depends. The legal status of "desfribing" varies depending on state. It's illegal in most.
Oh, you mean the RDF. Erm, I'm looking into it but it looks like not being technically illegal. It'd be blatantly illegal to listen in or decrypt. Yes, it is illegal to 'decrypt' any communication no matter how poor said encryption is. Sigh. DMCA was written by idiots.
Listening in is generally illegal unless it's in certain bands, and not encrypted in the least. As police move to digital trunking, less and less police frequencies may be publicly listened to. Police scanners of yore will start dying out, except in very rural areas. Expect a lawsuit sooner or later on that, but not from anyone here.
RDF is generally legal unless it is specifically designated as being illegal by function or frequency. As a pilot I'm sure you are very glad this is the case in case GPS dies, as that's how planes found airports. Mind you, to qualify as RDF, the device has to be entirely passive and be incapable of intercepting/decoding the data. It can basically only gauge signal strength and direction.
IANAL, and I am still looking up the laws. Fed laws look ok, but regulation is more complicated. I played FCC in the past, but under a different set of rules.
Oh, one loophole, feds could consider it terrorism. That's not as big of a deal as you'd think. Lot of stuff can be considered terrorism or related, including technically most photography not taking place entirely on private property. Anyone considering photographing in a public setting should become very familiar with terrorism laws. There's "photographers rights" printouts one should definitely keep handy, plus the number of a lawyer.