Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ron on July 17, 2009, 12:01:20 PM
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I backpack in mountain lion country on occasion. Whether it is the news or an up tick in actual attacks it seems that more and more people are having encounters.
The nature of a catamount attack doesn't lend itself easily to the use of a pistol, plus I can't carry in most places I go so...
What would be the preferred blade length to reach the vitals on your typical north American predator? We might as well include brown and black bears for the sake of discussion.
Now I know the chances of a mountain lion attacking me are slim to none and the black bear even slimmer nonetheless inquiring minds would like to know.
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9mm
.45
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KA-BAR seems to do the trick, if the story behind the name is true :cool:.
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Bear Spray
I carry a Sog NW Ranger with me when I am out playing in the woods.
http://www.absoluteknives.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=S24
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This morning I went to SOGs sight looking for that knife, you had recommended previously. Then I started wondering if a 5 inch blde was long enough to get to the vitals on a 100lb cat.
For bears I'm on board with the spray. With a cat you probably won't know its stalking you until you are jumped from behind.
A KA-BAR has a 7 blade correct?
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A Sthil or Husqvarna ought to do the trick..
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation_world/20090717_ap_manuseschainsawinwyomountainlionattack.html
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"It was acting completely out of character for how a lion would normally act around a full grown man who has a chain saw in his hand," he said.
This made me laugh for some reason. :lol:
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This morning I went to SOGs sight looking for that knife, you had recommended previously. Then I started wondering if a 5 inch blde was long enough to get to the vitals on a 100lb cat.
For bears I'm on board with the spray. With a cat you probably won't know its stalking you until you are jumped from behind.
A KA-BAR has a 7 blade correct?
I would worry more about a 2 legged predators than a puma.
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A Buck "Special" model 119 is a classic that's pretty inexpensive. 6" blade and while it may be $81 at the Buck website, it's closer to about $40 at Walmart last I checked.
I've never gotten into a knife fight with a cat with mine, but it has done most other work pretty well. Fairly sure the blade is sturdy enough to slice a cat's neck if I pressed it into service as such.
I remember sleeping in my tent up in Washington in my pre-gun owning days, and having a big cat trip over the guy wire to my pup tent. It screamed at me while the walls of the tent shook, and I damn near wet myself. I got out my 3" swiss army knife and realized exactly how screwed I was. Woke up the next morning and found 3" wide cat tracks around my tent.
Got a big knife that same week once I was back in town, though what I got was a knockoff Tanto blade. Probably would have been fine for stabbing kitty, but not very useful for anything else. Sucked as a fishing or utility knife outdoors.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.jalopnik.com%2Fassets%2Fresources%2F2008%2F05%2FCat-Attack.jpg&hash=f8ef4afc86658e7df30276195462f48b3eb8af3d)
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In general I'd say fixed blade, 5"-7", with guard or handles articulated to minimize slippage and a lanyard hole. I carry a Cold Steel Recon Tanto.
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Just carry a hatchet. =D
Or a Fairbairn-Sykes - it's got a 7" blade, purpose-made for stabbing things.
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Khukuri from Himalayan imports
I like the BAS
http://yhst-7333098713883.stores.yahoo.net/brarse1.html
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Find yourself a good surplus M-4 bayonet.
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I'd use a Puma =D
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcutlerscove.com%2Fhunting-knives%2Fimages%2Fpuma-white-hunter-stag.jpg&hash=f0b641ade36963390b3bd2f433b8d325372d4a76)
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A Sthil or Husqvarna ought to do the trick..
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation_world/20090717_ap_manuseschainsawinwyomountainlionattack.html
You mean like this one?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi176.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw186%2Fvaskidmark%2Ftruesprayandpraygun.jpg&hash=b56885cb9a0e37c9ed97fcd00bc327fee03fe3d6)
stay safe.
skidmark(http://)
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I saw a story about some guy who fought one off with a small pocket folder. I'd rather have a pointy stick. Every year, for about the last 10 years, I've been finding big cat tracks on one of our places. I'm pretty sure it's just going to sneak up behind me and break my neck before I know what's happening, but I carry a fixed blade hunting knife or longer field knife on my belt just in case I have a chance to fight back.
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Aren't they ambush/bite to the back of head and neck predators?
Although I suppose most human/puma encounters happen when the puma is behaving defensively rather than predating.
There's a story about a guy who stabbed and killed an old toothless lioness who had his head in her mouth.
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Aren't they ambush/bite to the back of head and neck predators?
Although I suppose most human/puma encounters happen when the puma is behaving defensively rather than predating.
There's a story about a guy who stabbed and killed an old toothless lioness who had his head in her mouth.
Yes.
I think most encounters happen without the human knowing.
If one bites me on the head, I hope it's the old toothless kind. :D
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When I wrote lionness, this story supposedly happened on the Zambezi river.
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my minimum
http://www.carolinaknives.com/images/zulu.jpg
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You mean like this one?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi176.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw186%2Fvaskidmark%2Ftruesprayandpraygun.jpg&hash=b56885cb9a0e37c9ed97fcd00bc327fee03fe3d6)
stay safe.
skidmark(http://)
That is so cool my head just exploded.
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Reminds me of that self-tracking gun from Aliens.
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You're going to try to win a knife fight with a giant wild cat?
Good luck with that.
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Machete
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If it needs to be killed with a blade that is not a sword:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerber_Mark_II
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F5%2F58%2FGerbermkii.jpg&hash=d790ddfebf31344040a7d06e3e42678fc17f7d4b)
Now back in production:
http://www.gerbergear.com/index.php/product/id/316
Also, standard with a hole drilled in the butt for a lanyard, so you don't drop it when wrasslin' with the kitteh.
Barring that, a ka-bar type knife is a good idea.
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Advice I've heard:
They will stalk and attack you from behind. Wear a mask with a face on it on the back of your head.
I wouldn't want to be flailing a knife around with a cat on my back.
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You're going to try to win a knife fight with a giant wild cat?
Good luck with that.
There was a story out of California about a retired guy who was jumped by a cat. His wife kept stabbing the cat with a pen and it eventually high tailed it out of there.
If I'm three days from a trailhead and get jumped I want to have a chance and I want to inflict as much hurt with each thrust of the blade as possible. If I only get one good jab I want it to be deep enough to create maximum damage.
Wearing a backpack it may not get a chance to snap my neck right away. My Leatherman Blast is not up to the task and is usually in my top cap. As far as the mask is concerned I actually though about doing something like that on the back of the pack.
I guess the question really is this...is a five inch blade long enough to reach the vitals on a big cat?
Just so you guys don't think I'm nuts or maybe you still will, lol. There is a place I go called the Gila Wilderness that is in southern New Mexico. I've been looking at the maps and would like to do an east to west traverse of the whole area. This would be a week to ten days unsupported backpacking through big cat country. If I can't get any of my regular crew to go I am considering a solo trek.
The question is hypothetical but the reality is there are some big cats where I'm going.
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You're going to try to win a knife fight with a giant wild cat?
Good luck with that.
Carl Akeley finished off a wounded leopard with his bare hands. (Of course, afterwards, he looked sort of like a man who'd wrestled a running lawnmower.)
Harry Wolhuter stabbed a man-eating lion (African type!) to death with a knife while being dragged away by the cat. His belt knife was ". . . an ordinary butcher-type "sticking" knife, with a six inch cutting edge and no quillion." (See Death in the Silent Places by Peter Hathaway Capstick.)
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The odds of being attacked are small. But the odds of living through it are even smaller.
If I had to carry a knife for the situation you describe I would want something in the four to six inch range. A shorter knife will draw quicker and work in a tighter space. Don't worry about hitting the vitals. You need to hurt it. QUICKLY.
I think your best bet would be to have a friend along. But whatever you do make sure you put your weapon somewhere that you can quickly reach with whatever hand is free while on the ground fending off a hungry attacker. (That puts a new twist on tactical training.)
jim
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.filedby.com%2Fbookimg%2F0836%2F9780836218053.jpg&hash=e28537c323a92dbefd5f914a195adf3e4712816b)
:laugh:
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I would want at least a 4" blade to go through their muscle.
Buck Kalinga Pro - http://www.agrussell.com/product.asp?pn=BU406&bhcd2=1247887480 (http://www.agrussell.com/product.asp?pn=BU406&bhcd2=1247887480)
4-7/8" blade. Good grip. Very easy to slash or stab with.
Ontario Shank - http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ON9410TCH (http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ON9410TCH)
6-1/2" blade. Good grip, even with bloody hands. Can penetrate a mountain lion at any point on their body.
Ontario RAK - http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ON9414TCHS (http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=ON9414TCHS)
6" blade. Good grip, even with bloody hands. Very easy to slash or stab with. Skull crusher.
Just find a knife you like with a decent steel. I tried to list knives that won't break the bank. Really though, just make sure you don't get anything that will slip out of your hand when it gets bloody. If you don't have confidence in a 4" blade then get something longer. Don't get something too long that you can't slip between you and a mountain lion while it's trying to pin you down. Etc.
Minimum effective blade length? Probably 4". It's all about shot placement. :lol:
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the Khukuri is blessed +4 against cat & bear attack
big cats where I'm going
According to some of my buddies, Jaguars
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the Khukuri is blessed +4 against cat & bear attack
According to some of my buddies, Jaguars
They shot one to collar down in New Mexico and IIRC they hit it with too large a dose and killed it.
Just my luck to be killed and eaten by a cat that supposedly doesn't even have a breeding population in the states :laugh:
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for the short time in my own slightly younger days (13 years ago now) when i would occasionaly go camping or hiking in areas where i felt the need to carry something more than a pocket knife, i carried one of three knives. any of which would have met the blade length criteria you mentioned (all had 4"+).
My father's old Case drop point hunter similar to http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/product.jsp?Mode=Brand&Brand=23&CatalogName=&PriceStart=&PriceEnd=&Feature=&Cat=&filter=&SearchText=hunter&list=50&SKU=CA518
a standard and stereotypical Ka-Bar fighting knife
And my favorite a Camillus "air force survival" (same thing by Ontario: http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/product.jsp?filter=&PriceEnd=&order=Default&CatalogName=&range=51&list=50&Feature=&SearchText=&Cat=&Mode=Brand&Brand=84&PriceStart=&SKU=Q499 (http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/product.jsp?filter=&PriceEnd=&order=Default&CatalogName=&range=51&list=50&Feature=&SearchText=&Cat=&Mode=Brand&Brand=84&PriceStart=&SKU=Q499) )
The major reason I liked the last one best was that I found the UNpolished stacked leather grip was easier to hold on to when my hands were wet, muddy, etc, the polished leather/sealed leather grips of the other two would occasionally get slippery on me (the case being most prone) and I had less confidence that in them for this reason.
I also found the length of the standard Ka-Bar to be a little much, and the smaller survival knife much handier.
Unfortunately I left it in the garage over the summer a few years back and the local environment pretty much reclaimed it, or at least made it unsalvageable (grip had started to rot badly)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftheswitchblade.com%2FMerchant2%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FBoker712RedSmoothBone600.JPG&hash=615238edb7c0d471e890d513901df3ee187b8ce7)
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Tactical hatchet?
Fusion by SOG....
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Tactical hatchet?
Fusion by SOG....
I came really close to buying the SOG Tomahawk, but I couldn't figure out a use for it, figured in the end I'd either cut myself or really piss my wife off with it.
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jfruser:
Thanks for the heads up on the MKII. I was enamored of it during my teen action/adventure pulp phase. Might have to get one on principle, even though I've learned more about blades and it's no longer the be all, end all.
SADShooter
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Ron:
Lots of options given here.
One last suggestion: Pay close attention to the sheath. For your intended use, I would not suggest an active retention system on the sheath such as a snap. A friction sheath, either leather or kydex would be best. Hand on hilt and pull.
Also, consider a rafter's or sailor's knife in a chest rig as well as your big knife. If you really want to be able to quickly be able to combat a wild animal, you need to get the pack off NOW without looking weak and inviting an attack. A rafter's knife can be used to quickly cut the straps of your pack and dump it on the ground out of your way.
Or... just wait for park carry to kick into effect. =D
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If you really want to be able to quickly be able to combat a wild animal, you need to get the pack off NOW without looking weak and inviting an attack.
You want to leave the pack on if attacked, gives you protection if you have to lie head down and play dead. i.e. Grizzly attack.
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Cut the straps on my pack! never! :laugh:
Charby is correct though, it will offer some protection especially if it is an attack as a warning and not an attack to eat me.
Thanks for all the good suggestions, still mulling over my options.
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Ko-Katana
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chenessinc.com%2Fkaze%2Fkazekokat_front.jpg&hash=7903f5d793ddda21db5cf1aaf8e3abf10f3d11d3)
Yes,I have carried one in the woods, it's about the smallest that makes me comfortable.
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If it needs to be killed with a blade that is not a sword:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerber_Mark_II
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F5%2F58%2FGerbermkii.jpg&hash=d790ddfebf31344040a7d06e3e42678fc17f7d4b)
Now back in production:
http://www.gerbergear.com/index.php/product/id/316
Also, standard with a hole drilled in the butt for a lanyard, so you don't drop it when wrasslin' with the kitteh.
Barring that, a ka-bar type knife is a good idea.
I was on the point of recommending that very knife when I saw your post.
*heavy sigh* I had a MKII my friends bought as a going-away present just before I went to Infantry School. I kept it with my gear and carried it in the field in Germany until the powers-that-were took it away from me and made me stash it in the arms room. During REFORGER 82 an E-5 from 3rd ID threatened to shoot me - his M-16 had a blank round jammed into the barrel - so I pulled the knife and told him to make his shot count. He ran away and later told an MP who passed by that I'd threatened him for no reason. Being that I was an E-2, his story flew and mine didn't. When I left Germany the next year the unit was in the field. I was told that my knife had been secured in the S-2 shop and I couldn't get it. Being young and stupid I believed them. I hope whoever got it tripped and fell on it and bled out...slowly.
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the mask on the back of the head used to be effective but
after the Tigers in India figured it out news spread quickly throughout the cat kingdom.
It no longer works.
I'd say about any really good fighting knife will do, I've looked into
this debate for 15 years now. ( I had a nightmare/premonition I would be killed by a cougar )
It seems cats prefer quick deaths and no fighting and if injured give up the fight quickly. ...
However, the cat that attacks you may not be keeping up with the latest research.
Also, if you combine Jag's with cougars and ignore borders like Canada and Mexico, then lions are a bigger problem then we have been led to believe.
Your best bet is probably having company of some sort and all of you have weapons of some kind handy.
Far more likely that a human would be your main problem but...heck...weapons are effective against them too.