Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Uncle Bubba on July 23, 2009, 12:04:53 PM
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Following closely behind the tale we've been discussing of the police officer who showed his ass and got away with it comes this one of a police officer who did his job properly and is being publicly vilified for it, and may well be hung out to dry to appease the race-baiters and their ilk. Even the President has weighed in, making tha above statement. Drudge Report and Fox News are leading with the story, but to my utter amazement CNN has it listed third. Lots of stories to choose from out there so I'll just hit the "high" spots:
Police receive a call of a possible break-in. First on the scene is a white officer who finds a black man inside the house, and asks if he lives there. Man says he does. Officer asks for I.D. as proof of residence and man refuses and begins to loudly berate officer, calling him a racist, and says, "This is what happens to a black man in America!" Man continues to shout and berate police and refuses to cooperate so is arrested for disorderly conduct. The arrested man turns out to beHenry Louis Gates, Jr., a prominent professor of "Black Studies" at a very prestigious university. The media circus begins.
I related a story here not long ago where I'd been in a situation akin to that. The local police had set up a fishing expedition license/DUI check roadblock just below my house. When I backed into my driveway (as was my habit then) an officer pulled up, got out, and asked if I lived there. I said I did and he asked for my I.D. I gave him my license and told him I'd just moved in recently and hadn't had the address changed on it. He asked for a bill or some mailed correspondence that showed my name and that address. I invited him in while I looked for such, found one, he took a look at it, said, "Thank you, Mr. S----." and returned to his patrol car.
From the police report (taken with a grain of salt because of the "thin blue line" behavior we've discussed in the other thread) and interviews of friends and neighbors of the officer, and interviews of people who witnessed the incident, the officer knows his job and did it properly. That cuts no ice with the race pimps, however, since Gates is "...one of the foremost authorities on race in America." as one reporter said it. I've noted that every news story has said that the officer "demanded" identification from Gates. Having been part of and/or witness to many situations where police wanted someone to show I.D. I can say that almost without exception, and unless the situation is so volatile that there's no time for niceties, the police will ask for I.D., at least civilly if not politely, more than once before the gloves come off, so to speak, and they begin to make demands and issue orders.
It's ridiculous that a man who is by all early accounts a damn good cop may well have his job taken away from him, or may have to leave it on his own hook, because racist, prejudiced, bigots accuse him of having the shortcomings they refuse to admit in themselves.
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Papieren bitte!
There are various stories circulating about what actually happened.
The two important issues that are pretty consistent in the stories are:
1. The guy did show ID that proved he lived in the home.
2. The cop arrested him knowing the guy was probably the resident, having seen the ID.
Thats pretty much the definition of acting stupidly. Just because you can get away with doing something, does not make it a good idea to do so.
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So what if he eventually showed I.D. and did live there?
He wasn't arrested for not showing I.D., he was arrested for Disorderly Conduct. He intially refused to show I.D. and almost immediately began to shout and berate the cop. When Gates finally did show I.D. and the cop tried to leave, Gates followed him, screaming and ranting about racists in America and threatening the cops with his fame and position (police report and witnesses say Gates shouted several times, "You don't know who you're messing with!")
One of Gates's complaints is that the cop "...walked into [his] house without [his] permission." When the police get a call of a possible break-in and arrive to find the door open and someone inside, of course they're going to walk in. How is the cop supposed to know, initially and when the person inside refuses to identify himself in any way, that that person is the resident?
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Guys, keep the emotionally motivated cursing to a minimum.
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Two (at least) very different accounts - I don't know which one to believe.
A pity there's no dashcam video available . . .
Edited to add:
They guy was described as " . . . a prominent professor of "Black Studies" at a very prestigious university."
Black studies?
This is on a par with nonsense like "Women's Studies" or "Gay Studies" . . . silly stuff for people who can't (or won't) hack it in something challenging, like the sciences, mathematics, law, medicine, etc., or even in some traditional "soft" subjects like history & foreign language.
So it's not as if he was a genuine professor teaching a subject that required genuine intellectual exertion.
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What Uncle Bubba said plus: What the hell is the President doing getting involved?
Bob
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I read the story last night, and one particular was that a neighbor told the police that he/she had seen a black man trying to force the door open. That would certainly arouse suspicion, if it's true.
The police report, if accurate, shows a guy who deserved to be arrested.
Obama is involved because he's Obama, and he can cure racism.
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So what if he eventually showed I.D. and did live there?
This is the USA. We allow people a lot of leeway in their own homes. One of the things we allow is for you to enjoy your own home without having the authorities come by and hassle you.
He wasn't arrested for not showing I.D., he was arrested for Disorderly Conduct. He intially refused to show I.D. and almost immediately began to shout and berate the cop. When Gates finally did show I.D. and the cop tried to leave, Gates followed him, screaming and ranting about racists in America and threatening the cops with his fame and position (police report and witnesses say Gates shouted several times, "You don't know who you're messing with!")
I gather that what he was really arrested for was pissing the cop off. Thats not really DC.
One of Gates's complaints is that the cop "...walked into [his] house without [his] permission." When the police get a call of a possible break-in and arrive to find the door open and someone inside, of course they're going to walk in. How is the cop supposed to know, initially and when the person inside refuses to identify himself in any way, that that person is the resident?
The stories seem to differ widely on just where he was when the cop showed up. Some stories claim he was outside kicking on the door, others that he was inside. Some stories state he had a cab driver with him helping him, others don't mention the cab driver.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the cop will be exonerated. There is no video to refute his side of the story so the people that decide these things will rule in his favor all the way down the line, regardless of what the citizen or the cab driver says happened.
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I'm willing to bet that there are 3 sides to this story. What Gates said happened, what the cop says happened and what actually happened.
I'd probably be a little indignant (maybe even more than a little) if a cop walked into my my house unannounced and uninvited and even politley asked for ID and proof of residence. How the heck would I know that one of my "concerned neighbors" had reported a possible break-in?
I also think Obama should have NEVER gotten involved in this.
Opens the door to any white cop/minority citizen interaction becoming a race issue with the cops on the loosing end everytime, deserved or not.
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Definitely wildly varying stories right now. From where the Venn Diagram intersects from those stories I've seen:
1) The homeowner had an attitude and I believe he was giving a "screw you" attitude to the cop on initial contact.
2) Once the homeowner showed ID, the officer should probably have ignored his outbursts, said thank you, and walked away, no matter how rude the homeowner was getting, as long as there was no physical threat.
Personally, if someone saw me breaking into my home or car and called the cops, I'd already be getting my ID out before the cops walked up to me. I'm obviously doing something that looks suspicious, and quite frankly, I'd thank them for checking into it. It's ten minutes of my time versus if it wasn't me, stopping someone from breaking into my property. It's not like they're coming up to me on the street and demanding my papers while I'm standing around minding my own business. Someone made a legitimate call over a concern and the officers investigated just as they're supposed to do. I'd like to get the straight story for what actually happened after ID was verified.
Definitely Obama should shut the hell up.
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This is the USA. We allow people a lot of leeway in their own homes. One of the things we allow is for you to enjoy your own home without having the authorities come by and hassle you.
I gather that what he was really arrested for was pissing the cop off. Thats not really DC.
The stories seem to differ widely on just where he was when the cop showed up. Some stories claim he was outside kicking on the door, others that he was inside. Some stories state he had a cab driver with him helping him, others don't mention the cab driver.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the cop will be exonerated. There is no video to refute his side of the story so the people that decide these things will rule in his favor all the way down the line, regardless of what the citizen or the cab driver says happened.
What I meant by the question was that it had nothing to do with his eventual arrest. He wasn't arrested for refusing to show I.D., he wasn't arrested for being inside the house with or without reason, and he wasn't arrested for pissing off the cop. He was arrested for ranting and screaming and causing a public disturbance. The police reports states the reason for the charge:
On Thursday July 16, 2009, Henry Gates, Jr. [redacted] of [redacted] Ware St, Cambridge, MA) was placed under arrest at [redacted] Ware St., after being observed exhibiting loud and tumultuous behavior, in a public place, directed at a uniformed police officer who was present investigating a report of a crime in progress. These actions on behalf of Gates served no legitimate purpose and caused citizens passing by to stop and take notice while appearing surprised and alarmed.
Initial reports were confused about some details. Now it's been established that Gates was alone in the house, his driver had left after Gates was able to get in the back door.
As to "One of the things we allow is for you to enjoy your own home without having the authorities come by and hassle you.", the police got a report of a possible break-in and were investigating. The officer said that he initially wanted Gates outside because he didn't know if he was actually the resident. After he finally got Gates to show I.D. he still wanted him to come outside for his own safety because he still didn't know if there was someone else inside. How is that a hassle? As RKLarry said above, I'd be indignant about the situation in general, too, but I've got sense enough to know ranting and screaming at the cop isn't going to do a bit of good.
Someone should sit Gates down and scream at him until it sinks into his skull that everything negative, or that he perceives as negative, that happens to him in life isn't influenced by the color of his skin, it just seems that way in his prejudiced mind. He's as wrong as two left shoes in this matter. Period.
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A spokesman for the Police Department did not return a call seeking comment. But in the report, Sergeant Crowley said that as he told Professor Gates he was investigating a possible break-in, Professor Gates exclaimed, “Why, because I’m a black man in America?” and accused the sergeant of racism.
“While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence,” Sergeant Crowley wrote in the report, “I was quite surprised and confused with the behavior he exhibited toward me.”
Professor Gates followed him outside, the report said, and yelled at him despite the sergeant’s warning “that he was becoming disorderly.” Sergeant Crowley then arrested and handcuffed him. Professor Gates was held at police headquarters for hours before being released on his recognizance.
“He is cooperating now with the city to resolve this matter as soon as possible,” Professor Ogletree said, adding that Professor Gates wanted the charges against him dismissed.
Professor Ogletree said that Professor Gates had “never touched” Sergeant Crowley, but did “express his frustration at being subjected to the threat of arrest in his own home.”
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I agree with some posters, there is obviously a story here and I doubt anyone will ever know the full details.
Having said that, it is interesting to see who immediately sides with the police officer, and who immediately sides with the black professor, even when no-one has any evidence of either persons conduct. Perhaps there is room for some self-analysis here?
Obama was involved because a reporter asked him a direct question about this incident, since the man is a personal acquaintance of Obama's, obviously. I don't see how that is innapropriate.
As for *my* personal opinion, regardless of what happened, and who is telling the truth, what gives a cop the right to arrest someone for being belligerent in their own home (or yard)? Unless the man actually struck him physically, I can see no justification for arrest. I think free citizens have a right to be rude to a police officer even if they don't have any cause. I am surprised that is not the mainstream opinion so far, given this forums reputation for aggressively upholding constitutional rights. The fact that no-one in his chain of command was willing to back him up also says something...police departments don't usually rail-road their officers.
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I just read a story the other day where an individual was playing a video game and yelling and screaming during his play. A neighbor called the cops and the police came to investigate. He refused them entry and was arrested or detained for a while.
As far as the story goes, I THINK that the police were doing their job. If I was on patrol and received notice that a possible break in was happening, I would investigate it. If the individual refused to prove he lived there, that would pose a problem. If the suspect got angry and rebellious, that would further raise some questions. It would be interesting to know the complete story before saying the cops were "stupid".
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Having said that, it is interesting to see who immediately sides with the police officer, and who immediately sides with the black professor, even when no-one has any evidence of either persons conduct. Perhaps there is room for some self-analysis here?
It is interesting.
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when it comes to public disterbances like this, i see it on the officiers side. in certan naighborhoods, and incident like that can start a riot. disorderly conduct and disterbing the peace are not BS charges. yes, there often used as BS charges, but they themselves arn't.
Basically you have the right to say whatever you please, you also have the right to live with the consequences of those words. so my general rule of thumb is don't behaive like an a** to cops. if you have a complaint (and as an educated man, gates surely knew how to go about it) you get the officiers name, badge number and you file a complant with the officers supervisor. you don't publicly bereate the officer at the scene.
as for the cops throwing this one to the wolfs. luck of the draw. its one thing when the incident involves a nobody. its another when the guy in question is a personal friend of the president.
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when it comes to public disterbances like this, i see it on the officiers side. in certan naighborhoods, and incident like that can start a riot. disorderly conduct and disterbing the peace are not BS charges. yes, there often used as BS charges, but they themselves arn't.
Basically you have the right to say whatever you please, you also have the right to live with the consequences of those words. so my general rule of thumb is don't behaive like an a** to cops. if you have a complaint (and as an educated man, gates surely knew how to go about it) you get the officiers name, badge number and you file a complant with the officers supervisor. you don't publicly bereate the officer at the scene.
as for the cops throwing this one to the wolfs. luck of the draw. its one thing when the incident involves a nobody. its another when the guy in question is a personal friend of the president.
Exactly, I tend to agree. This is where the details of the story get fuzzy though. Gates says he showed his ID to the cop upon request, and repeatedly asked for his badge number and name, which he claims the officer did not provide, and claims the officer continued to harass him after he showed his ID.
The Officer claims he was nothing but polite and that Gates went nuts without provocation.
Obviously, who is right and wrong hinges on those details, and I do not see how anyone can know for sure unless there were direct witnesses. One or both of them was being a jerk-off, I just don't know who.
I do feel a bit uncomfortable by the insinuation that follows by putting, "Black Studies" in quotes, in the original post. I do not think that was helpful. (but perhaps I am too sensitive?)
(edit: unless there was actually a threat of some sort of civil disturbance breaking out, I don't see that as a valid argument. I think I agree with ilbob and others: regardless of what the dude said, as soon as he showed ID and displayed his wish that the officer leave his home the story should have been over, even if Gates was being a jerk. The fact is if this guy *hadn't* been a big-shot professor, he probably never would have stood a chance. I hate the idea that a cop with a grudge can make your life miserable, and that the answer to that is, "be polite". (I am super-polite to the police, have never been arrested or even been in trouble...I *like* police, because they have always been helpful to me. But I'm a white middle-class male in a stable environment so I'm not exactly on the front lines.)
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The most likely racist in this story is the guy who called it in. :laugh:
The way I see it, the homeowner (who happens to be black) copped an attitude at being harassed on entering his domicile. The cop (who happens to be white) copped back an attitude and copped the fellow to the cop-station on account of hurt feelings, more or less.
Maybe he should get his wrist slapped for allowing personal feelings to interfere with his duty. But if the president wants to confront the police for crimes they've committed, we have another thread with a fair number of instances where the (major) crime is very clear-cut.
Unfortunately, the likely event is increased racial sensitivity classes as opposed to "protect and serve means just that" classes.
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If you start getting loud and "belligerent" with a cop while he is investigating a possible crime it is not unusual for them to escalate the situation to an arrest just to keep it from getting even further out of control I would suspect.
The homeowner (apparently) was not in possession of all the facts about what was occurring. He may not have known why the police were there and what they were told (black male attempting to kick in door of neighbors house).
Personally I try and avoid all contact with police while they are in their official capacity. To this day I still have issues with authority :) I find some of the impersonal aggressive methods I've seen employed very uncomfortable. If I were being treated brusquely or being yelled at I may also react very strongly, it would require a lot of self control to not give the cop a piece of my mind. As I have gotten older I find that I don't jump to conclusions as quickly and am more willing to have empathy for others. The brusque and impersonal nature of the officer may be a response to a serious threat I'm not aware of or it may just be the cop is out of line.
Being cooperative and letting the situation play out has no downside IMHO. It may be that both these "gentlemen" need to learn how to treat others with respect.
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I agree with some posters, there is obviously a story here and I doubt anyone will ever know the full details.
Having said that, it is interesting to see who immediately sides with the police officer, and who immediately sides with the black professor, even when no-one has any evidence of either persons conduct. Perhaps there is room for some self-analysis here?
Obama was involved because a reporter asked him a direct question about this incident, since the man is a personal acquaintance of Obama's, obviously. I don't see how that is innapropriate.
As for *my* personal opinion, regardless of what happened, and who is telling the truth, what gives a cop the right to arrest someone for being belligerent in their own home (or yard)? Unless the man actually struck him physically, I can see no justification for arrest. I think free citizens have a right to be rude to a police officer even if they don't have any cause. I am surprised that is not the mainstream opinion so far, given this forums reputation for aggressively upholding constitutional rights. The fact that no-one in his chain of command was willing to back him up also says something...police departments don't usually rail-road their officers.
I've been on both sides of situations like this more than once, as participant and observer. That's where my view of it comes from.
He wasn't arrested for "being rude to a police officer", he was arrested for disorderly conduct. You don't have a right to be a ranting raving screaming idiot in your own home or yard or anywhere else if it disturbs others.
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I've been on both sides of situations like this more than once, as participant and observer. That's where my view of it comes from.
He wasn't arrested for "being rude to a police officer", he was arrested for disorderly conduct. You don't have a right to be a ranting raving screaming idiot in your own home or yard or anywhere else if it disturbs others.
This is the point though, there is zero collaborative evidence that he was a "ranting screaming idiot". To me this issue is not about race, it is about a guy with badge sending a guy to jail because he had hurt his feelings. Boo-hoo. (edit: As an officer who has been given authority over other citizens, having a thick skin needs to be a #1 priority. Rude is not illegal, it is too easy to abuse the authority that goes with a badge.)
Unless there is some sort of evidence that Gates was actually fomenting some sort of riot, I can see why the officer could be called, "stupid".
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Whoever typed the Presidents response to this issue into the teleprompter should be fired.
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"To me this issue is not about race, it is about a guy with badge sending a guy to jail because he had hurt his feelings. Boo-hoo."
Great. You have an opinion. For which there is absolutely supporting evidence.
Now if you buy a cookie, you'll have a snack, too.
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"To me this issue is not about race, it is about a guy with badge sending a guy to jail because he had hurt his feelings. Boo-hoo."
Great. You have an opinion. For which there is absolutely [no] supporting evidence.
Now if you buy a cookie, you'll have a snack, too.
FTFY.
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Yes, I mean to say NO supporting evidence.
Sigh.
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This is the point though, there is zero collaborative evidence that he was a "ranting screaming idiot". To me this issue is not about race, it is about a guy with badge sending a guy to jail because he had hurt his feelings. Boo-hoo. (edit: As an officer who has been given authority over other citizens, having a thick skin needs to be a #1 priority. Rude is not illegal, it is too easy to abuse the authority that goes with a badge.)
Unless there is some sort of evidence that Gates was actually fomenting some sort of riot, I can see why the officer could be called, "stupid".
Yes there is. The other officers on the scene (grain of salt there) and neighbors said Gates was rude, abusive, and loud.
One of the few comments the arresting officer has made about it was that he "was surprised that a man of Gates' age and education would make the comments he did about [the officer's] mother." I've only read one article that included that quote from him. I'd like to know if anyone else there heard it and would be willing to relate what Gates said.
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Come on, Bubba.
You know those "eye witnesses" are just conspiring to keep the black man down... :rolleyes:
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i nread that gates own house had been broken into a couple weeks ago. door hadn't been fixed yet. that could/would color my response if i was a cop who showed up and there was a damaged door.
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Is performing mouth-to mouth resuscitation on a black man the behavior of a racist?
"BOSTON -- The officer who arrested Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. stirring a national debate about race relations in America was the same officer who tired to resuscitate Boston Celtics star Reggie Lewis when he collapsed 16 years ago.
Sgt. James Crowley told the Boston Herald that he gave mouth-to mouth resuscitation when Lewis, an African-American, died 16 years ago...." The officer then worked at Brandeis University.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/education/20151798/detail.html
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It also just hit on Yahoo News that the officer is a department expert on racial profiling and taught the class at the academy. This should get interesting.
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Yes there is. The other officers on the scene (grain of salt there) and neighbors said Gates was rude, abusive, and loud.
One of the few comments the arresting officer has made about it was that he "was surprised that a man of Gates' age and education would make the comments he did about [the officer's] mother." I've only read one article that included that quote from him. I'd like to know if anyone else there heard it and would be willing to relate what Gates said.
Haha. If they have eye witnesses that can prove he really was a raving screaming madman shaking his fist under the cops nose, then at least I can understand why he would be mad. I had not heard that up to this point.
Since I imagine someone will be sued about this, we can bring it up again when all the evidence is made public.
Mike Irwin: Although your comments have been snide and rude, I do agree with you. I specifically said that this was my opinion, not fact. The officer also had an opinion. The difference is he threw someone in a squad car and took them to jail because of it.
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It also just hit on Yahoo News that the officer is a department expert on racial profiling and taught the class at the academy. This should get interesting.
Wouldn't it be amazing if one of them just came out and apologized for being a angry idiot?
Not that I think that will happen...but I can dream. Instead there will be a giant lawsuit, the professor will look like a jerk with a persecution complex and the cop will look like a member of the KKK Gestapo. And no-one will ever know what really took place.
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In my view, it's becoming clearer and clearer who should apologize, but that's not going to happen because he's convinced that this is just another case of rampant racism.
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In my view, it's becoming clearer and clearer who should apologize, but that's not going to happen because he's convinced that this is just another case of rampant racism.
What's funny is he's right, but the cuplrit of that racism is not who he believes it to be...
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Silly little forum toad! You know it's not possible for a minority to be a racist!
I'm ashamed at you!
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Silly little forum toad! You know it's not possible for a minority to be a racist!
I'm ashamed at you!
<hangs head in shame>
You're right, I forgot that.
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from the last little chunks of info involving the officers training and past record, i have a difficult time believing that he was doing anything other then his job. and i agree with uncle bubba, screaming and ranting in veiw of the public is a pretty good indication that you may get in a little trouble with the law.
this sounds like reverse racism to me, and unfortunalty, given the current atmospher in our country i think we may be seeing a lot more of it.
and on a side note: wow :O
some of the attitude from our newest memeber is a bit disconserting.
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When the Cops Are Called In, Anger Is a Dangerous Weapon to Brandish
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072102782.html
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When the Cops Are Called In, Anger Is a Dangerous Weapon to Brandish
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072102782.html
exsactly.
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What's sad is a model officer is now labeled a racist and whatever good he has done or is to do is gone. He's the bigot cop/pig.
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from the last little chunks of info involving the officers training and past record, i have a difficult time believing that he was doing anything other then his job. and i agree with uncle bubba, screaming and ranting in veiw of the public is a pretty good indication that you may get in a little trouble with the law.
this sounds like reverse racism to me, and unfortunalty, given the current atmospher in our country i think we may be seeing a lot more of it.
and on a side note: wow :O
some of the attitude from our newest memeber is a bit disconserting.
I would, of course, love some elaboration. Perhaps in a private message so the discussion is not derailed.
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Obama was involved because a reporter asked him a direct question about this incident, since the man is a personal acquaintance of Obama's, obviously. I don't see how that is innapropriate.
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Yes his comments were totally innaprorpriate.
The approprirate thing to have said is something along the lines of - "Yes I'm aware of it but I do not know all the details and it would be innappropriate for me to coment about an incident that is still being investigated."
The teleprompter in Chief did nothing with the commet he made but casue serious damage to the reputaion of the cambirdge poilce dept. and may well cost the lives of officers and citizens if the ridiculous mess keeps getting stoked and manages to boil over.
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You know it's not possible for a minority to be a racist!
Some people really act like they believe this.
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Yes [Obama's] comments were totally innaprorpriate.
The approprirate thing to have said is something along the lines of - "Yes I'm aware of it but I do not know all the details and it would be innappropriate for me to coment about an incident that is still being investigated."
Exactly. It is thoroughly inappropriate for a President of the U.S. to come out against the police in a local matter, which is still being sorted out. He admitted that he didn't have all the facts, but failed to keep quiet in his ignorance. (And I would know a thing or two about that. :lol: )
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He admitted that he didn't have all the facts, but failed to keep quiet in his ignorance.
Are you talking about this incident in particular, or the world in general?
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"To me this issue is not about race, it is about a guy with badge sending a guy to jail because he had hurt his feelings. Boo-hoo."
Great. You have an opinion. For which there is absolutely supporting evidence.
Now if you buy a cookie, you'll have a snack, too.
<Gigglesnort>
When I heard it was HLG Jr, my mind immediately flashed up the scene of the two muck-digging peasants and King Aurthur from Monty Python's Holy Grail. Here we go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434
"HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED!"
Heck, the HLGs of the world LIVE for this sort of situation:
1. No real danger or discrimination involved
2. Able to grandstand & toss feces accusations of racism
If racism & discrimination don't exist in enough quantity, go out and make some of your own. Happens on college campuses with dismaying regularity.
The LEO in question has witnesses to back him up as well as the original citizen who called the potential burglary in. Toss in the buggered front door and I suspect he'll prevail.
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I hate to say this, but if you come into my house without permission the least you are going to get is nasty words. Officer or civilian, you have no right to be there. I understand why these officers responded to the place, but at the point they realized it was the guys house they needed to leave. I don't care what he was saying to them.
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how much do you hate it that they were outside leaving with the "poor man" following going ape?
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As long as he was on his property then I don't care. Now the second he was on public property he is in trouble.
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I hate to say this, but if you come into my house without permission the least you are going to get is nasty words. Officer or civilian, you have no right to be there. I understand why these officers responded to the place, but at the point they realized it was the guys house they needed to leave. I don't care what he was saying to them.
Not to put too fine a point in it, but you are wrong. At least in a way.
If the police have received a call about a possible break-in at your home they have reason to investigate the matter. That may mean entering, with or without your permission. When they put on the badge they're given the responsibility to use their judgement by society.
That said, if the police did come to your house on a call like this one, would you identify yourself and answer their questions politely or would you immediately begin to scream and shout and make threats just because they were at your door? According to the witnesses that's exactly what Gates did.
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When the Cops Are Called In, Anger Is a Dangerous Weapon to Brandish
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072102782.html
Most sense I've seen from a Post writer in a long time.
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I'm in the camp that believes the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the "he said, he said" clutter.
I would hate to see a decent police officer get railroaded.
I also know that a person can be arrested no matter how polite they are even when on their own property.
What I do agree with is that I find Obama's comment inappropriate.
A simple, "Let me get the facts first before I comment on that" would've been much better than "The Cambridge police acted stupidly."
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Not to put too fine a point in it, but you are wrong. At least in a way.
If the police have received a call about a possible break-in at your home they have reason to investigate the matter. That may mean entering, with or without your permission. When they put on the badge they're given the responsibility to use their judgement by society.
precisly. they have to investigate and if your house is the crime scene then thats were they gotta go... *shrug*
a lot of this is 'he said, he said.' but so far (considering the info brought forth) i'm am tentiteivly on the officers side. if Gates was following them as they were leaving and still ranting and raving then obviously, he doesn't have his head on straight. i presume this happened in a suberban or city area where passerbys are readily witnessing this display and, just like if your playing your music too loud or having a wild and crazy party, yelling and screaming at someone (including cops) can get your butt in the joint on a public disterbance call.
furthermore, if you want to find incidents of racial disputes between cops and civilians to discuss the issue, please don't show up with a dispute between a black proffessor of african american studies and a white cop in charge of training his fellows not to racially profile. this example is predisposed to that argument simply do to the backgrounds of the invovled. (does that make sense? if it doesn't then please say something and i will try to explain it better. words and me are not getting along today)
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Ladies and gentlemen, a word or two from someone who apparently knows of which he speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOx6OM01M5M .
CAUTION: NSFW LANGUAGE
stay safe.
skidmark
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Ladies and gentlemen, a word or two from someone who apparently knows of which he speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOx6OM01M5M .
CAUTION: NSFW LANGUAGE
stay safe.
skidmark
hey, skidmark, can you post a synopis for those of us who are youtube inpaired. (my &^**()^^$%%^& computer won't go there. =( )
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I'll give you the bullet points from the recap at the end:
- Obey the Law
- Use common sense
- Stop immediately
- Turn that **** (loud music) off
- Be polite
- Shut the **** up
- Get a white friend
- Don't ride with a mad woman
The whole video is hilarious, though. :laugh:
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I'll give you the bullet points from the recap at the end:
- Obey the Law
- Use common sense
- Stop immediately
- Turn that **** (loud music) off
- Be polite
- Shut the **** up
- Get a white friend
- Don't ride with a mad woman
The whole video is hilarious, though. :laugh:
*sigh* i always miss the good stuff. oh well... sounds pretty relevent.
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In my home frankly I can talk to people how I want. Would I have been a lot more respectful to start? Probably so depending on how they were treating me. I would also have shown them my ID is they gave me good reason. Then I would have politely told them get the heck out of my house. If they did not then they would be getting similar treatment to what these guys got. I love the police, many of my close friends are officers at various levels but I also believe that my rights trump their hurt feelings.
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Heck, the HLGs of the world LIVE for this sort of situation:
1. No real danger or discrimination involved
2. Able to grandstand & toss feces accusations of racism
If racism & discrimination don't exist in enough quantity, go out and make some of your own. Happens on college campuses with dismaying regularity.
The more we learn about the incident the more clear it becomes that Gates is a professional race-baiter looking for a little career boost.
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Story time!
A few years ago, I was at my parents' house in the country. I was there all by my white self, doing some outside work (in ratty clothes and a black watch cap) when a police car came down the road. As he passed the house, I put down my wheelbarrow full of gravel and began walking down the road in the opposite direction. He turned around, and asked me who I was, if I lived there (I did) and if I could show some ID. Yeah, I felt a little harassed and annoyed, but I did what he asked. He ran the plates of the cars in the driveway and everything checked out.
He told me he suspected something, because I took off just as he showed up. I told him that they had just re-surfaced the road, and when I saw him coming down the road, I remembered that I had wanted to take a look at it. That sounds a little odd, but that's what happened. I don't remember whether he apologized or not, but he didn't seem terribly regretful for his "harassment." No smile creased his stony demeanor.
As he was about to leave, I thanked him for keeping an eye on things.
Both of us were (and probably still are) white.
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I think I now agree that Obama should have been more careful with what he said.
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Ryan: US President acted stupidly
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If the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an ass kicking with them... :laugh: :police:
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Saw more discussion about this on TV . . . still don't have all the details, but one thing stood out: the "racist" cop spparently DID NOT use his nightstick, taser, or pepper spray, on the professor, the way you'd expect if he was a closet Klansman looking for an excuse to harass a black man.
I'm starting to lean in favor of the cop . . .
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I'm in the camp that believes the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the "he said, he said" clutter.
I would hate to see a decent police officer get railroaded.
I also know that a person can be arrested no matter how polite they are even when on their own property.
What I do agree with is that I find Obama's comment inappropriate.
A simple, "Let me get the facts first before I comment on that" would've been much better than "The Cambridge police acted stupidly."
+1. It will be interesting to see if bystanders etc, have commentary on Gates behavior.
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The president's main stream media is using this to distract the public from something else that the politicians are doing. In addition, this is a prime example of the president sticking his nose into something that is not his concern due to his position as president.....chris3
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When he was asked by the media about Obama's comments, Crowley said, "I didn't vote for him."
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I began leaning heavily in favor of the cop the second Obama got involved. :laugh:
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One of the radio mouths sadi that thre is supposed to be an open mike recording of the entire exchange between the cop and Gates. I sure hope there is and it backs ot cop to the hilt.
Anyone else hear anything about this and those that would know is it even possible for an officer to do this?
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Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest
AP
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Cambridge Police Sgt. James Crowley listens to questions from members of the AP – Cambridge Police Sgt. James Crowley listens to questions from members of the media at his home in Natick, …
* Harvard Scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. Slideshow:Harvard Scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr.
* Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology Play Video Video:Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology AP
* Racial Profiling or Misunderstanding? Play Video Video:Racial Profiling or Misunderstanding? ABC News
By BOB SALSBERG, Associated Press Writer Bob Salsberg, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 18 mins ago
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A black police officer who was at Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s home when the black Harvard scholar was arrested says he fully supports how his white fellow officer handled the situation.
Sgt. Leon Lashley says Gates was probably tired and surprised when Sgt. James Crowley demanded identification from him as officers investigated a report of a burglary. Lashley says Gates' reaction to Crowley was "a little bit stranger than it should have been."
Asked if Gates should have been arrested, Lashley said supported Crowley "100 percent."
Gates has said he was the victim of racial profiling.
President Barack Obama says the officers "acted stupidly." Lashley called Obama's remark "unfortunate" and said he should be allowed to take it back.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A multiracial group of police officers on Friday stood with the white officer who arrested a prominent black Harvard scholar and asked President Barack Obama and Gov. Deval Patrick to apologize for comments the union leaders called insulting.
Obama said Wednesday that Cambridge police "acted stupidly" during the disorderly conduct arrest of his friend, Henry Louis Gates Jr., in his own home near Harvard University. Gov. Deval Patrick said Gates' arrest was "every black man's nightmare."
Dennis O'Connor, president of the Cambridge Police Superior Officers Association, said Obama's remarks were "misdirected" and the Cambridge police "deeply resent the implication" that race was a factor in the arrest.
"President Obama said the actions of the CPD were stupid and linked the event to the history of racial profiling in America," O'Connor said. "The facts of the case suggested that the president used the right adjective but directed it to the wrong party."
Officers responded to Gates' home on July 16 after a woman called 911 and said she saw two black men with backpacks trying to force open the front door. The woman, Lucia Whalen, has not responded to repeated attempts for comment.
Gates has said he returned from an overseas trip, found the door jammed, and that he and his driver attempted to force it open. Gates went through the back door and was inside the house on the phone with the property's management company when police arrived.
Police said he flew into a verbal rage after Sgt. James Crowley, who is white, asked him to show identification to prove he should be in the home. Police say Gates accused Crowley of racial bias, refused to calm down and was arrested. The charge was dropped Tuesday, but Gates has demanded an apology, calling his arrest a case of racial profiling.
Gates, 58, maintains he turned over identification when asked to do so by the police. He said Crowley arrested him after the professor followed him to the porch, repeatedly demanding the sergeant's name and badge number because he was unhappy over his treatment.
Crowley has refused to apologize, saying he followed protocol.
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Reuters is now reporting that Obama called the officer in question and spoke with him at length.
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Reuters is now reporting that Obama called the officer in question and spoke with him at length.
Obama regrets choice of words (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_harvard_scholar;_ylt=AjiOJBM6YtqQio7zrCYz7qGyFz4D;_ylu=X3oDMTNhMjN0ZjQ4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNzI0L3VzX29iYW1hX2hhcnZhcmRfc2Nob2xhcgRjcG9zAzEEcG9zAzIEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnNfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNvYmFtYXJlZ3JldHM-)
Also, I note with this statement by Obama that he is incapable of apologizing for anything he has done and admitting fault.
Nope, he just "gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge police department and Sgt. Crowley specifically. And I could've calibrated those words differently."
As with most liberals, he isn't wrong; he was misunderstood.
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When he was asked by the media about Obama's comments, Crowley said, "I didn't vote for him."
Ah, so he IS a racist.
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Did the cop ever say that Gates had never asked for his name or badge number?
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nope as a matter of fact he addresses that in his interview. there's a link on rev left i bet
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He forced his way into his house (granted, it's his)
Neighbor does the neighborly thing when a house is being broken into and calls the police.
Police respond
He (at least initially) refuses to show ID
Instigates and begin yelling at the cop
Eventually it gets bad enough to be considered disorderly conduct and he is arrested
How is this racism?
If I lock myself out of the house and have to break in I certainly hope and responding officers expect more proof then my word that I do in fact live here. Had Mr. Racebater simply done so, he likely would have received a have a nice day and that would have been the end of it.
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In my home frankly I can talk to people how I want. Would I have been a lot more respectful to start? Probably so depending on how they were treating me. I would also have shown them my ID is they gave me good reason.
"We are investigating a report that two men broke into this house."
Isn't THAT a good enough reason for the police to be asking "Are you the guy who lives here?"
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A local talk show host made an excellent point about this story. Obama really messed up on this one. There's so much attention being devoted to this minor issue that it's overshadowing his last-ditch pitch for health care.
What a maroon.
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A local talk show host made an excellent point about this story. Obama really messed up on this one. There's so much attention being devoted to this minor issue that it's overshadowing his last-ditch pitch for health care.
Last ditch it is too. Funniest part is it's not even republicans giving him a problem with it.
Personally I think Ol' Joe has been rubbing off on him. For someone as intelligent as Obama the longer time goes on the more he slips up.
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What with thousands of media and beltway types hanging on his every word and regarding him as the prophet of the New America, he's become the biggest mouth in the country. Notice that, when the question was put, he had a lecture prepared. He had three points, numbered. If they just rhymed or had alliteration, it could have been a homily.
He's been told he's the oracle, showing America the new way out of the old, failed politics of the past. He just can't keep himself from pontificating on things that aren't his business.
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Seems like I saw a report that Obama ran afoul of the Cambridge police a number of times for parking infractions while a student at Harvard. I wonder if we saw a small holdover grudge come though. I judged his comments a little extreme considering it was a local issue.
Now let me offer a contrary view of the question. It came at the end of a press conference where he was not at the top of his game. He was trying to salvage the initiative on health-care reform. News coming out of congress was not good. He was about to experience defeat. What the question and his response provided was an entirely different story throughout the weekend. His healthcare defeat did not go away. It now has to share time with the Cambridge story. So rather than be dominated by his loss he now is in the news for a different reason.
Obama is better at political prestidigitation than any politician in my lifetime. He has consistently been able to distract attention from one area by introducing something else. Normally the technique is use to see-saw policy initiatives. Here we see how it is used to distract attention from a defeat. 'Inevitability' is a popular political tactic pioneered by Clinton. It works fairly well early on for Obama but has failed with healthcare. Cambridge serves as a distraction from his evident defeat.
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I can't remember where I heard it but afaik
Gates Harvard ID doesn't show an address, and that's all he was showing.
afaik he did the old "don't you know who I am" routine.
I'm amazed by that. I had vaguely heard of Gates only because I'm a news hound, I wouldn't know a Patriots pitcher from a Met's quarterback though...no time for those ball throwing sports.
I am old enough to remember Nixon getting in hot water for saying Manson was guilty while he was on trial.
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One of the radio mouths sadi that thre is supposed to be an open mike recording of the entire exchange between the cop and Gates. I sure hope there is and it backs ot cop to the hilt.
That's something I've been wondering about: this ain't some hickville sheriff with a Model 10 and one deputy, so where's his voice recorder and body mike?
Also, if Gates is such a wonderful guy, why don't his neighbors recognize him? We moved into our house in December, and I'm pretty sure that by New Years Day, everybody within view knew us by sight at least well enough to not mistake us for burglars.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpremium1.uploadit.org%2FdocZox%2F%2FGatesFAIL.jpg&hash=402e0f4e41421eba8bf9c1873a64fe9496feb7d2)
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LMAO! Another win for Tuttle!
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I can't remember where I heard it but afaik
Gates Harvard ID doesn't show an address, and that's all he was showing.
afaik he did the old "don't you know who I am" routine.
I'm amazed by that. I had vaguely heard of Gates only because I'm a news hound, I wouldn't know a Patriots pitcher from a Met's quarterback though...no time for those ball throwing sports.
I am old enough to remember Nixon getting in hot water for saying Manson was guilty while he was on trial.
I'm not old enough to remember it but I learned of it not too many years later in reading about the case. Just last night I was telling my wife, who's not old enough to remember it and knows little of the case, about the difference between the media's handling of the two statements.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpremium1.uploadit.org%2FdocZox%2F%2FAlPal.jpg&hash=2f44c7d125d507602721d9ef7c7e824ecf5b2a7e)
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And Harold is on a role... :laugh:
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Link to Crowley and Figueroa's reports on the incident.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html
911 call. The neighbor couldn't even see the skin color, and thought maybe one was Hispanic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p9FgmU1jL0
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I've been detained many times. I was detained and questioned for rape (suspect description black male early 20's), robbery, murder (suspect description man in leather jacket), theft, and for generally looking like somebody. Each time it was a fishing expedition, and each time I treated the officer with more respect than he was probably due.
I also had the police show up at my garage after the burglar alarm went off, with me inside looking around. I startled one cop who then went for his gun.
Nobody ever said that I was the victim of something. Certainly not Obama.
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THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO A MONKEY-LEGGED MAN IN AMERICA!!
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Shoot, I didn't think of that! It's WWHAHL! (Walking while having a hairy leg).
So, when do I get my reparations?
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Shoot, I didn't think of that! It's WWHAHL! (Walking while having a hairy leg).
So, when do I get my reparations?
Forty acres and a bottle of Nair.
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Forty acres and a bottle of Nair.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsmilies.net%2Fhappy-smiley-620.gif&hash=98265895f586aefb012c06724d883b8f4932658e) (http://planetsmilies.net)
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Here's a laugh on the subject. Link lifted from the Bayou Renaissance Man's blog.
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/07/cambridge-police-profiling-still-a-grim-reality-for-harvard-faculty-aholes.html (http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/07/cambridge-police-profiling-still-a-grim-reality-for-harvard-faculty-aholes.html)
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Oops. So much for the racist 911 caller:
Gates 911 call: Witness not sure she sees crime
By RUSSELL CONTRERAS (AP) – 1 day ago
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — The 911 caller who reported two men possibly breaking into the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. did not describe their race, acknowledged they might just be having a hard time with the door and said she saw two suitcases on the porch.
Cambridge police on Monday released the 911 recording and radio transmissions from the scene in an effort to show they had nothing to hide, but the tapes raised new questions about how and why the situation escalated.
Gates' July 16 arrest on a disorderly conduct charge sparked a national debate about whether the professor was a victim of racial profiling. Gates, returning from a trip to China, and his driver had forced their way through the front door because it was jammed, and the charge was later dropped.
In her 911 call, Lucia Whalen, who works at the Harvard alumni magazine, repeatedly tells the operator she is not sure what is happening.
Speaking calmly, she tells the operator that she was stopped by an elderly woman who told her she noticed two men trying to get into a house. Whalen initially says she saw two men pushing on the door, but later says one of the men entered the home and she didn't get a good look at him. She says she noticed two suitcases.
"I don't know if they live there and they just had a hard time with their key. But I did notice they used their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not, 'cause I couldn't see from my angle," Whalen says.
She does not mention the race of the men until pressed by a dispatcher to describe them.
"Um, well, there were two larger men," Whalen says. "One looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all. I just saw it from a distance and this older woman was worried, thinking, 'Someone's been breaking in someone's house. They've been barging in.'"
The officer who arrested Gates, Sgt. James Crowley, said in his police report that he talked to Whalen soon after he arrived at Gates' home. "She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch," Crowley, who's white, wrote in his report.
Whalen's attorney, Wendy Murphy, said her client never mentioned the men's race to Crowley and is upset by news reports she believes have unfairly depicted her as a racist.
"She doesn't live in the area. She is by no means the entitled white neighbor. ... That has been the theme in the blogs and the implication in some of the mainstream news media," Murphy said in a phone interview Monday.
In his written report, Crowley said Gates became angry when he told him he was investigating a report of a break-in, then yelled at him and called him a racist.
In a radio communication with a dispatcher, also released Monday, Crowley said Gates was not cooperating.
"I'm up with a gentleman, says he resides here, but was uncooperative, but keep the cars coming," Crowley said.
Another voice can be heard in the background of the transmission, but it is unintelligible and unclear if it is Gates.
Cambridge police Commissioner Robert Haas acknowledged that the police report contains a reference to race, but said the report is merely a summary of events.
Gates did not immediately return an e-mail message, and his spokesman did not return e-mail and telephone messages.
Crowley could not be reached for comment. A message left at the police station was not returned, and no one answered the phone at his Natick home.
The professor's supporters called his arrest an outrageous act of racial profiling. Crowley's supporters say Gates was arrested because he was belligerent and that race was not a factor.
Interest in the case intensified when President Barack Obama said at a White House news conference last week that Cambridge police "acted stupidly" in arresting Gates. He later tried to quell the uproar about his comments and invited both Gates and Crowley to the White House for a beer. That meeting was scheduled for Thursday evening, an administration official said on the condition of anonymity because the meeting had not been announced.
David Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, said he did not think the latest revelations related to the 911 caller would change many opinions on the case.
"My guess is that that adds nothing to the conviction of black Americans that the cops like to lie a lot," Kennedy said. "It's just another example of something they already thoroughly believe, and that if it affects the views of those who generally trust the police, it would affect it in a very small way at most."
Gov. Deval Patrick, a black friend of Gates who last week called the arrest "every black man's nightmare," said Monday he wouldn't apologize for his remarks.
A multiracial group of police officers and union officials supporting Crowley had called on the governor to say he was sorry. But the governor said he wasn't sure why he was being asked to apologize.
Patrick said he acknowledged from the beginning he wasn't at Gates' home to witness the arrest, and he said Crowley seemed to be "a pretty good guy."
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HT I totally stole the first one for my facebook :-)