Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Desertdog on August 06, 2009, 11:30:41 PM
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After thinking about what is going to be the unintended consequences of the Cash for Clunkers law.
One Cash for Clunkers new car buyers traded in a 1998 SUV. Both of my vehicles are older than this and are running great.
I am assuming that there are later models than that being traded in.
#1 - I didn't think of, but heard it on the radio.
The buyers of new cars are turning in their clunkers to the dealer instead of donating them to charities, which will reduce the charities income.
The unintended consequences will probably be the charities will cut their services for the poor.
#2 - Since that all of the Cash for Clunkers cars must be distroyed, the numbers of used cars in the market will be greatly reduced. Results probably will be much higher used car prices and less choices.
#3 - Dumping all the Cash for Clunkers cars in the scrap metal markets will probably reduce the price of scrap metal and reduced income for recyclers at every level until the glut of vehicles is used up.
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People who bought their cars with our money as down payments were turning in cars that aren't that old. That means that there will be fewer really cheap cars available if this program continues.
Who buys cheap cars? Mostly young people and the poor. What do they need them for? One important purpose is getting to work. No money for car=no car=perhaps no job.
Of course, lacking a car won't matter when it comes to jobs if cap and tax passes, as there will be far less jobs available.
Yessir, the Dem's are the party of the disadvantaged. They create as many disadvantaged people as possible.
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The rising prices for used cars was a given, even without the C4C program.
IIRC, we scrap about 12 million cars a year in the US. Production of new cars has been in the 10 million range for a couple of years now, so we're at least 4 million cars in the hole so to speak. C4C only exacerbates the coming supply problem. I don't know if the 12 million figure includes the not-insignificant number that head south of the border and overseas. If it doesn't, then the hole is that much deeper. The used car "crunch" is expected to peak in the 2011 time frame, so if you're wanting an average type of used car then you best be jumping on one because it's not likely to get any better price-wise.
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can junk yards afford to scrap vehicles
that don't have engines?
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As mentioned by Desertdog, I just read that all the "donate your car" charities are hurting. No one wants to donate their car for a tax write-off if they can get the $4500 "cash" for a new one. So now even more people too poor to buy a newer vehicle are SOL.
This also adversely affects people who don't want to get into debt. I have never made a car payment in my life. I've always paid cash. My first two vehicles were older used cars because that's all that I could afford at the time. If this program continues for any length of time, if I wanted to buy my first car in the immediate future, I'd likely have to take a loan out because of what will now essentially be artificially inflated prices on the limited choice and amount of used vehicles that will be on the market.
That or buy something with 200K on the odometer that will end up nickel and diming me, because the way this program seems to be working, it's taking all the "mid-range" less than 10 year old, under 100K, vehicles off the market. You're left with the really old clunkers and "newer" used vehicles that will be out of many people's price range.
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Government has no business being in the car business in the first place, and less turning the nation's hard-earned tax dollars into so-called "welfare" to buy votes for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party.
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Government has no business being in the car business in the first place, and less turning the nation's hard-earned tax dollars into so-called "welfare" to buy votes for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party.
It could still backfire on BHO. If the new car buyers or their spouse lose their job, there could be a lot of repos of new cars.
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I know I'm not alone in feeling the way I do, but I have to vent. The expense that gets in the way of all other bills and spending every month is taxes. I'm constantly writing checks to the feds, state or local government.
Now I'm screaming mad that I'm writing these checks to help people buy bigger homes than I have or more expensive cars than I have. This is absolute insanity.
Anyone with children should be doubly mad, as it's the children of today who are really going to be hit for this. As the interest accrues on the T-bills, the fuse will be getting shorter.
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I haven't seen anyone mention it (or maybe they did, but I missed it). But the first time I heard of this programme, it sounded like a thinly veiled attempt to 'destroy' anything that wasn't envirofriendly. The first step in enviroworship is to destroy the choice not to worship the environment.
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Another thing I didn't see mentioned: Since this is effectively a new car subsidy, the price of them will go up. Of course that is the goal of the program, namely helping the auto makers. But what happens when the C4C money dries up? Will the car market crash even harder? I don't know, but it just occurred to me that with congress being as generous as they are with all this free money, maybe they will extend it forever and a new car will become a "right" like health care.
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This photo makes me sick.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunshopfinder.com%2Fclunkerkill080709.jpg&hash=858aa3566f067102bed4e805e65d7d7f5f50a868)
Reminds me of book burning.
In the name of environmentalism, we are destroying real property that has real value, paying for it with the tax dollars of our children, and increasing the cost of cars to those who are least able to afford the cost increases.
This will not help the auto industry over the long term because the boost is artificial. A few years back, when the automakers were offering all sorts of deals at 0% interest, market analysts predicted that sales would plummet after everyone who intended to buy a new car had done so. Bailout, anyone?
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What makes you think that any of these "consequences" are unintended? None of this is "unintended". None of it.
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Whatever happened to Depression era ideals - "Make it work, wear it out, use it up or do without?"
Seeing perfectly serviceable vehicles, purposefully destroyed, incenses me.
I have some old tools that might have a little rust/discoloration on them but I'm not going to go chuck them in the river and then raid my child's college fund for replacements.
I'm not that irresponsible.
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I don't think there are any "unintended" consequences to the C4C abomination.
I was relieved though to see that my particular make/model/year of clunker was removed from the eligable list.
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Trade in a paid for older vehicle for a new one with a payment- increase indebtedness. check
Reduce the supply of used cars, drive up the price. check.
reduce the number of cars on the road without tracking systems/onstar or the like. check.
reduce the number of used parts available. check.
none of this is good. - the corrollary would be to "encourage " new home sales by burning down our houses.
Our country is being run by vicious amoral cretins.
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the corrollary would be to "encourage " new home sales by burning down our houses.
Heh, I'm waiting for the next "bailout" that involves destroying all homes older than 10 years and putting up LEEDS certified homes in their place.
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Whatever happened to Depression era ideals - "Make it work, wear it out, use it up or do without?"
As I understand it, Depression-era ideals were those of destroying produce to increase prices.
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Burn corn, wheat and soybeans to raise prices for farmers. It worked until the dust bowl hit and farmers weren't able to produce enough to feed the US.
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It is all about the politics of eliminating deflation so that the irresponsible don't end upside down in loans.
The two ways to reduce deflation:
1) Print more money -- which they are already trying to do at record pace.
2) Destroy supply (wealth)
Obama wants to get the stock market back to the number 14k, so that he can say he solved the crisis. He knows the general populace doesn't know that number reflects wealth relative to the worth of the dollar, it does not reflect absolute wealth.
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So if one wants to find a late-model V8 at a local junkyard...
Socialism runs deep with this administration, nicht wahr?
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So if one wants to find a late-model V8 at a local junkyard...
Socialism runs deep with this administration, nicht wahr?
Why would you want such an unpatriotic, enviromentally unfriendly engine, prole? You should at most have an econobox, and if you were more patriotic, you would take publik transportation.
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Unintended consequences #4 - I heard this one on the news.
Reduced repairs on cars. Shome shops are down as much as 50% because the owners had bought new cars instead of repairing the older cars.
#5 - Once the Cash for Clunkers runs it's course, what is going to happen to the new car sales for the next 1 1/2 to 3 years?
I expect a drop even worse than the one that brought on the Cash for Clunkers.
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It's okay... since we've nationalized GM and Chrysler and nearly killed Ford, the next go-round we get to finish Ford off and maybe try for Toyota or Honda too!
Imagine that... us nationalizing a foreign corporation! =D
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It's okay... since we've nationalized GM and Chrysler and nearly killed Ford, the next go-round we get to finish Ford off and maybe try for Toyota or Honda too!
Imagine that... us nationalizing a foreign corporation! =D
Well Obama did look pretty friendly with Chavez... maybe they shared some secrets for success?
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Heh, I'm waiting for the next "bailout" that involves destroying all homes older than 10 years and putting up LEEDS certified homes in their place.
I'd be in favor of burning down a bunch of the houses NEWER than 10 years old. A lot of those new McMansions are all but disposable anyway.
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I'd be in favor of burning down a bunch of the houses NEWER than 10 years old. A lot of those new McMansions are all but disposable anyway.
As has been said before, destroying wealth to make us more prosperous ain't gonna work.
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Yup, I see a lot of repos on the horizon. How is it any different from the bad loan debacle? People trading in these "clunkers" are going to find themselves suddenly saddled with a car payment the will eventually be unable to pay and all the happy joy joy will wear off in short order. =|
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Yup, I see a lot of repos on the horizon. How is it any different from the bad loan debacle? People trading in these "clunkers" are going to find themselves suddenly saddled with a car payment the will eventually be unable to pay and all the happy joy joy will wear off in short order. =|
I'm not yet convinced that this is happening. The credit market has been so tight lately that I can only imagine the only people benefiting from C4C are those who are responsible. Or has the congress/administration loosened up credit to make this program succeed?
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is this a surprise to any of you? America junk dealers are probably selling the scrap metal to Japan at reduced rates due to the volumn of scrap being generated from all those cars being replaced.
Cash-for-Clunkers Great — for Japan
Monday, August 10, 2009 4:56 PM
By: By Dick Morris & Eileen McGann
http://www.newsmax.com/morris/japan_clunkers_ford_gm/2009/08/10/246107.html
The only part of the stimulus program that is working, the “cash for clunkers” program is, in reality, a subsidy to foreign car companies, proving that Barack Obama is the best president Japan ever had.
The Department of Transportation reports that the 10 leading trade-ins are all American branded cars while six of the top 10 new cars purchased — and four of the top five — are foreign. So the Senate is about to pass additional funds to subsidize the trade-in of American cars and the purchase of foreign cars.
DOT reports that the following are the 10 top trade-ins, all American:
1. Ford Explorer
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 WD
4. Jeep Cherokee 4 WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
6. Chevrolet Blazer 4 WD
7. Ford Explorer 2 WD
8. Ford F150 Pickup 4 WD
9. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2 WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van
And the top 10 new car purchases, subsidized by the American taxpayer, are mainly foreign vehicles:
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Ford Focus FWD
3. Honda Civic
4. Toyota Prius
5. Toyota Camry
6. Ford Escape FWD
7. Hyndai Elantra
8. Dodge Caliber
9. Honda Fit
10. Chevrolet Cobalt
It is a violation of the World Trade Organization rules to enact a public subsidy program and skew it toward only domestically produced products, so the Congress has no choice but to extend the program to all comers. No choice, that is, but to not spend the money in the first place.
“Cash for clunkers” will do wonders for the Japanese economy, but its impact on the U.S. job situation is problematic. This unintended consequence is a great illustration of what happens when the blunt tool of government subsidy is applied to the fine tuning of a free market economy. Government planners keep getting it wrong. That's why socialism is such a bad idea.
So Obama can boast of a great success in taking American cars off the road and replacing them with foreign cars. Great going!
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I wouldn't buy a US brand car. Especially not GM or Chrysler. Maybe a Ford, but if buying new, why would you not go Japanese (unless you are looking for a heavier than 1/2 ton pickup)?
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Ummm, sorry, but the Honda's and Toyota's on the list are made in the USA, just not in Detriot or the Rust Belt.
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The name of a car doesn't necessarily determine where it's made anymore.
http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthenews/07-10-06.html (http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthenews/07-10-06.html)
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Ummm, sorry, but the Honda's and Toyota's on the list are made in the USA, just not in Detriot or the Rust Belt.
Ding ding ding!!!
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One more thing....the Ford Escape is made by Mazda....
The name of a car doesn't necessarily determine where it's made anymore.
Very true.....my Nissan Frontier was made in Tennessee.....while my in-law's Fords were made in Mexico.... ;/
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I buy Japanese cars that are actually made in Japan; I also use my own money rather than the tax payers'.
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Besides, the Japanese economy is getting nailed much harder than the rest of the world.
May 20 08:37 AM US/Eastern
The annualized contraction of 15.2 percent in real terms was...
:O
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D989VIS82&show_article=1 (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D989VIS82&show_article=1)
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I'm not surprised. I recently changed my mind on submitting my 2000 Jeep Cherokee to the program and bought a Nissan Versa with it.
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Good question but I still have my doubts. Time will tell I guess.
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Topix merged. 'Nuff said. :police:
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One more thing....the Ford Escape is made by Mazda....
Yes, but Ford owns 2/3 of Mazda.
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Yup, I see a lot of repos on the horizon. How is it any different from the bad loan debacle? People trading in these "clunkers" are going to find themselves suddenly saddled with a car payment the will eventually be unable to pay and all the happy joy joy will wear off in short order. =|
I know anecdote doesn't equal data and all that, but here's what I've seen:
I'm turning in a 'clunker' and it'll cost me $190 a month for the new car. That's well within the range of affordable to me and I'll probably have it paid off in half the time I'm supposed to.
Old man turned in a 'clunker' and paid cash for the replacement vehicle. Another full-sized truck of some kind.
My in-laws on the other hand all drive clunkers. One of them is annoyed that this is going to make it even harder to find the engine he needs for the truck that needs one. There's at least 6 vehicles among them that would qualify for this program. None are jumping on it because they know they either won't qualify for a new loan or shouldn't be getting one.
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Well, one can only hope the rest of the population acts as responsibly as your family. What I see is plenty of car dealers looking to make sales however they can. They won't care about the ability of the buyer to pay. That's the loan company's problem once the sale is made. Once the reality of 6 years of payments hits home some of these buyers are bound to fold. I hate car payments myself so I'm keeping my "clunker".
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Rasmussen poll on the news this morning:
at least 53% polled think that the government is wrong destroying the clunkers and should make them available to low income families for cheap.
:laugh:
This administration is imploding, one policy at a time.
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I know anecdote doesn't equal data and all that, but here's what I've seen:
I'm turning in a 'clunker' and it'll cost me $190 a month for the new car. That's well within the range of affordable to me and I'll probably have it paid off in half the time I'm supposed to.
I could probably afford that, but that would be $190 more a month than I am paying now. Not a good trade-off - $190 buys quite a bit of gas and close to 1000 rounds of 9mm at Walmart.
At any rate, one of my cars is 19 years old, the other is 21. Neither qualify for the program, gas mileage is too good. The 19 year old one actually gets better mileage than the book says, and the book says 22mpg.
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At any rate, one of my cars is 19 years old, the other is 21. Neither qualify for the program, gas mileage is too good. The 19 year old one actually gets better mileage than the book says, and the book says 22mpg.
My Mustang gets 24 highway and 14 in the city (10 with the A/C on). I wonder if I should trade that clunker in for one of these?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunshopfinder.com%2Fsmart2.jpg&hash=658716c563bed16f1f48d8d2c6bec4094a0f5d14)
I saw one of these on the road the other day. It looked like a water closet on wheels.
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My Mustang gets 24 highway and 14 in the city (10 with the A/C on). I wonder if I should trade that clunker in for one of these?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunshopfinder.com%2Fsmart2.jpg&hash=658716c563bed16f1f48d8d2c6bec4094a0f5d14)
I saw one of these on the road the other day. It looked like a water closet on wheels.
I'm pretty sure I said this in another thread, but oh, what the heck...
Someone at my university has one of those, and I parked near it once. If you were to take a saws-all and remove everything above the side mirrors, you could fit one of those in the back of my Ford Explorer (with the rear passenger seats down), and still have room for a passenger and some luggage to spare.
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I saw a guy trying to fit a medium sized box into the "cargo area" of one of those. He was soundly rejected and had to go get ANOTHER car that the box would fit in. :laugh:
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I'm starting to see a LOT of "Smartcars" on the road in my area.
What I don't understand, though, is why someone would pay what they want for a Smartcar's rather mediocre mileage combined with its incredible un-utility.
Holy crap.
In order to get into the Smartcar site to see information on their products, you HAVE to provide your contact information.
Barak Obama just signed up to learn more about a Smartcar.
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Barak Obama just signed up to learn more about a Smartcar.
:laugh:
Personally, I'd rather get one of these (http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/HO/series/HO_gator_xuv_series.html). It's about the same size, probably cheaper, gets about the same MPG and can haul more stuff.
Might be difficult to make it road legal, though...
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Too bad CfC only applies to cars....I'd find a clunker to trade in for one of these...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davepit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F03%2F1-brp-can-am-spyder.jpg&hash=85dce503c39518e8e9cad8867034c2f71e9046c8)
http://www.davepit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/1-brp-can-am-spyder.jpg (http://www.davepit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/1-brp-can-am-spyder.jpg)
Pretty cool...esp. seeing Dennis Quaid riding one in GI JOE.... :cool:
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One of those was in the parking lot at work a few weeks ago.
Weird.
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Ummm, sorry, but the Honda's and Toyota's on the list are made in the USA, just not in Detriot or the Rust Belt.
And have the advantage of sticking with only one type of fasteners: every "American" car I've tried to do anything to that was made in the last decade has a mix of SAE and metric all over the place. I can't count the bolts I've rounded over because I grabbed the SAE wrench that would fit the "American" part in the "American" car, only to find out too late that it was metric. (and, usually, that the label on the back of the part was in some language I've never seen before)
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"And have the advantage of sticking with only one type of fasteners: every "American" car I've tried to do anything to that was made in the last decade has a mix of SAE and metric all over the place."
Oh man, I just about went nuclear when I discovered that quaint little factiod about my 1991 Plymouth Sundance.
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The more I learn about Cash for Clunkers, the more I agree that it's a crock of foul-smelling stuff, foisted upon the public by an administration trying to give the flagging auto industry another shot in the arm on the taxpayer's dime. =|
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If my Subaru qualified, I'd probably take advantage of it.
I figure what better way to piss off the lot of you? :laugh:
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The timing is poor. I'm seriously looking for a replacement 5.7L V8 for the U-Boat in our collection.
I can rebuild it, build up a short or long block, or buy a crate engine from GM, but I'd prefer to just find a good-running specimen at the wreckers.