Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on August 15, 2009, 12:21:36 AM
-
Any of you WA staters know more about this? I don't know enough from this article to comment on the weapons and explosives charges, but can't help but be a little bothered by the judge's comments about how the guy put, "...lives at risk for decades". If he hadn't forgotten to pay the bill on the locker, no one would have known the cache existed.
-------------------------
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/theblotter/2009663664_man_headed_to_prison_for_belle.html?syndication=rss
Former Kirkland man headed to prison for Cold War weapons cache
John de Leon
-- From Times staff reporter Ian Ith:
To everyone who knew him, Ronald Struve was not the kind of man who would one day be arrested by federal agents and, at age 67, be sent off to prison for four years on weapons charges.
He was the jovial bachelor uncle, the eccentric, introverted pack-rat who loved his pet birds and fed the wild critters who came to his back porch. For four decades, he went to work every day as a court stenographer, and even shared a rental house with a King County sheriff's deputy for awhile.
But during the decades of the Cold War, Struve also sincerely believed that it was only a matter of time before the Soviets or the Red Chinese came storming onto American soil to conquer our way of life. So quietly, Struve collected an arsenal and stuck it away in rented storage lockers in Bellevue and Spokane: grenade launchers, dozens of grenades and machine guns, plastic explosives, silencers, blasting caps and detonator cord.
The Cold War ended, of course, and Struve quit worrying so much. But he just couldn't bear to part with his collection.
Then one day he failed to pay the bill on the Bellevue locker. Someone bought the contents at auction. Struve's secret was out.
This morning in Seattle, U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman sentenced Struve to 48 months in prison, three years of probation and mental health counseling, saying, "The bottom line is people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them."
"Your collections have put other people at risk for decades," she said.
Struve pleaded guilty in March to one count of possessing plastic explosives and four counts of possessing unregistered firearms. In return, the government dropped more than 100 other counts against him.
When agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms first searched the Bellevue locker in November, 2008, one veteran agent said, "In all my years, I've never seen this sort of firepower in one place."
They tallied two grenade launchers, fifty-four grenades, six big blocks of C4 plastic explosive, 37 machine guns from the Vietnam-War era, among other weapons. One of the grenades had been "dud-fired," meaning someone had pulled the pin and it could potentially still go off with a mere jiggle. Many of the items turned out to be stolen from the military long ago.
The agents also found more weapons in a locker Struve rented in Spokane. When they arrested Struve at his Spokane home, they said he told them he might use the weapons "some day," against "the enemy."
U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
Some of the weapons seized from Ronald Struve's storage lockers.
Prosecutors asked for a 63-month sentence this morning. Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Woods said in court papers that Struve's arsenal "to say the least, was capable of inflicting deadly force on a devastating scale."
What if there had been an earthquake or a fire, Woods wondered. What if the person who bought the locker's contents at auction had been a little rougher when moving all the boxes home? What if a criminal had broken in and stolen the stuff?
"The scope of the arsenal in this case was simply breathtaking," Woods said. "Quite simply, this was one of the largest arsenals for one person in this region's history."
But Struve said he never meant to hurt anyone.
In a letter to the judge, Struve said he started collecting weapons on the black market in the 1960s, while the Vietnam War raged. "As a young man, I became an anticommunist and that influenced my thoughts and beliefs," he wrote. "I thought there was a strong possibility we (the U.S.) would be attacked by the Russians/Red Chinese."
But as the years went by, Struve said, he has been "modifying and tempering my beliefs and thoughts about world events and politics in general."
Even so, he was devoted to his collection, and figured it might be worth something, he wrote. He tried to keep the weapons safe, he said. And he emphasized that he never fired any of them.
"I am not a violent person and have never knowingly hurt another person," he wrote.
And his family and friends eagerly backed that up.
His nieces and nephews recalled "Uncle Ronnie," the guy who showed up for every family get-together, the guy whose habit of collecting everything from old magazines to war paraphernalia to pet birds was endearing, not worrying.
"He is a bit eccentric, but harmless," his niece, Tanya Fresquez of Las Vegas, wrote to the judge. "I beg of you to see that he is harmless."
And his former roommate, retired sheriff's captain James O'Brien, recounted that when the two shared a house in Kirkland many years ago, the raccoons and squirrels made a nightly pilgrimage to their backdoor for Struve's handouts.
"Ron has always been a quiet, friendly and caring person, close to his family in California," O'Brien wrote. "Ron is a good person who had made some bad choices."
-
This is the problem I have with mere possession being a crime. This stuff was in storage for years and never used. The old guy was only preparing for an emergency that never occurred. I hope the Waffen BATFEces and the fedpuke prosecutor are proud of themselves for heading off a catrastrophe in the making. :mad:
-
I occasionally wonder how many caches there are hidden all over Europe, lying in wait for a war that never came.
-
"Your collections have put other people at risk for decades," she said.
Other then by being poorly secured, I don't see how this is true.
It's such a grave risk that it hurt how many people in 40 years? Oh, none? Huh, must not have been all that dangerous in this mans hands after all.
-
Poorly secured is kind of a big problem, but since I don't know much about explosives, I wonder if they need any up-keep to keep them stable? Or would they tend to degrade and become less dangerous?
-
and mental health counseling, saying, "The bottom line is people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them."
:O Anybody else bothered by this? Basically what they are saying on top of how people "simply should not have these things" but also that it is some sort of mental health issue! How many times has it been suggested that so called mentally unstable people should not be barred from owning firearms?
-
Poorly secured is kind of a big problem, but since I don't know much about explosives, I wonder if they need any up-keep to keep them stable? Or would they tend to degrade and become less dangerous?
I also don't know anything really about explosives, but I do know that degrading explosives, mostly from WWI, are a huge hazard. Apparently they tend to become less stable over time. Of course, that is nearly hundred year old technology.
-
I also don't know anything really about explosives, but I do know that degrading explosives, mostly from WWI, are a huge hazard. Apparently they tend to become less stable over time. Of course, that is nearly hundred year old technology.
Dynamite degrades with time, which makes it highly unstable. Dunno about the modern stuff though.
-
I occasionally wonder how many caches there are hidden all over Europe, lying in wait for a war that never came.
Some of 'em were government-sponsored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
I thought Death Wish III was silly, what with one guy having a pair of belt-fed MGs and a rocket launcher. I was wrong.
Don't all jump on the guy's bandwagon. It sounds like he may've stolen a good bit of his stuff.
-
I occasionally wonder how many caches there are hidden all over Europe, lying in wait for a war that never came.
Some of 'em were government-sponsored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
I thought Death Wish III was silly, what with one guy having a pair of belt-fed MGs and a rocket launcher. I was wrong.
Don't all jump on the guy's bandwagon. It sounds like he may've stolen a good bit of his stuff.
Yep, I know about that one. We had the Stay Behind-network going on up here as well, with people being sent off to the US and the UK for various forms of military training. One of the leaders for the network here got arrested for some weapons charges, but everything was mysteriously dropped after the security police had a talk to the boys in blue. Also, the Finns apparently dig up weapons caches every now and then as well. These were organized without official sanction from the government though. IIRC a group of officers had stolen enough weapons to outfit tens of thousands of men.
-
But, but... DECISIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES!! This person broke the law! He should be punished!
Of course, that is nonsense. This sort of thing is downright evil, and exactly why more people should be working to repeal these laws.
-
Honestly, how many of you would report something like this? I know that I probably wouldn't...
-
Hell no I wouldnt report it.
I'd find a quiet place to use it.
-
Honestly, how many of you would report something like this? I know that I probably wouldn't...
I think my happy-happy joy-joy dance would be a dead giveaway. =)
-
Anybody else bothered by this? Basically what they are saying on top of how people "simply should not have these things" but also that it is some sort of mental health issue! How many times has it been suggested that so called mentally unstable people should not be barred from owning firearms?
Yep. Modern pseudo-scientific demonizing and witch hunting are much superior to the old-fashioned kind.
-
What strikes me about this story.
I need to start buying auctioned off storage lockers.
Where did this guy find this stuff? If I went a little off and decided I needed a few MG's and a bunch of C4 to repel the red/yellow/brown menace, I wouldn't have the first idea how to go about finding something like that.
-
Where did this guy find this stuff?
Yeah, that was kind of interesting, the politics of the story aside. Seems he's a mild mannered court reporter of all things, but somehow made connections that led him to C4, etc. I wouldn't know where to start.
-
Yeah, that was kind of interesting, the politics of the story aside. Seems he's a mild mannered court reporter of all things, but somehow made connections that led him to C4, etc. I wouldn't know where to start.
The only thing I can think of is that he knew somebody in the military.
-
First of all, I wouldn't have stored those items in a rented place. =| Too much probability that someone, such as the landlord, would have cause to enter for some reason (such as building maintenance) especially over a span of so many years.
Second, If I were that close to the end of my life, I wouldn't plead guilty to anything. I'd fight those #@$%&*#@ tooth and nail until I didn't have a penny left.
-
So he misses one payment and they instantly sell the contents? Remind me to never rent a storage locker, and to go to more storage locker auctions =D. I wonder how much the guy bought it for at the auction. And how do they know what to ask for as a price?
Second, If I were that close to the end of my life, I wouldn't plead guilty to anything. I'd fight those #@$%&*#@ tooth and nail until I didn't have a penny left.
I wouldn't really say that 67 is that close to the end of his life, but I would still fight it like mad. Shoot, with the judge basically calling him mentally unstable because of it maybe he could of pleaded insanity, :lol: Although he did get off with a REALLY light sentence. Only 4 years of prison! I would imagine that normally with a cache of that magnitude that he would have multiple life sentences or something. I'm surprised that they didn't use a tank to come bust down his home when they arrested him.
-
I wouldn't really say that 67 is that close to the end of his life,
True, he could have 20-30 years left. I guess what I meant to say is that, when I am 67, I imagine I'll feel like I don't have much to lose, having already had my career, raised my kids, etc.
-
Yeah, that was kind of interesting, the politics of the story aside. Seems he's a mild mannered court reporter of all things, but somehow made connections that led him to C4, etc. I wouldn't know where to start.
I don't know how much gear that's gotten legs and walked off from your armed forces, but it was, and still is more or less an epidemic over here. Nowadays they don't store assault rifles and heavy machineguns in poorly constructed storage buildings out in the woods, so those kinds of thefts have ceased completely, but there's probably vast amounts of ammunition and explosives that grow legs each year and just disappears. I've heard of people who walked off with crateloads of ammo for example. Or people who travel home during the weekends with 30 feet of detcord wrapped around their torsos inside the jacket. Hell, over here it's a sport! Seeing that we hardly pay our conscripts, the attitude from the conscripts seems to be "We'll quit stealing when they start paying us atleast minimum wage!". The brass OTOH has the attitude of "We'll start paying you better when you quit stealing everything that isn't nailed down!"
Last I heard, there was about 540 assault rifles that had gone missing over the years (though "only" 201 of them are still out there), an unknown number of m/45 smg's, an unknown (and hopefully not a large) number of medium and heavy machine guns. Add to this the odd AT4, handgrenades, mines, explosives, flashbangs, teargas grenades and such. Not to mention all the non-dangerous but still expensive stuff like night vision gear...
Then there's all the stuff that's smuggled in as well...
So it seems to me that getting an illegal assault rifle or smg isn't too hard over here. As for you, just think of all the stuff brought back from Vietnam, Korea, WW2 that never got entered into the system, plus all the stuff coming in from South of the border. Or perhaps that gets smuggled in from China...wasn't there a sting maybe 10-15 years ago when the ATF busted some chinese businessmen trying to unload a few thousand AK-47's courtesy of Norinco?
-
"The bottom line is people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them."
People SHOULD have these things. I know plenty of well-to-do people in rural America--the people that spend thousands or millions on tractor-pulling, racecar driving, legal gun collections, etc.--that would have caches like this if it were legal. We would be better off, too; an armed society needs arms. This man's cache sounds like a good start for a small community.
I'd find a quiet place to use it.
Where, and how, are you going to use 40-some machine guns, explosives, and grenade launchers? If you don't report the stuff, you are going to jail too, in a big way. It's very sad but if I bought it, I would probably have no other choice but to report it, maybe after pillaging some ammo and AR uppers.
It's such a grave risk that it hurt how many people in 40 years? Oh, none? Huh, must not have been all that dangerous in this mans hands after all.
You are right of course, but I've seen this kind of fallacy pop up before. I was reading about a scientist who studied the drug content of the sewage at wastewater treatment plants to determine community drug use patterns. He came to the conclusion that the useage rate for certain drugs was many times times as high as estimated by other means such as arrest rates, street prices, etc.
A person with a balanced attitude would conclude that if many more people are using the drugs and you didn't even know it, the drugs must not be as 'dangerous' to society as previously thought. But rather than conclude that these drugs must be more harmless than previously thought, of course he came to the conclusion that these drugs were EVEN MORE of a problem than previously thought, because more people were using them than otherwise had been estimated!
-
Or perhaps that gets smuggled in from China...wasn't there a sting maybe 10-15 years ago when the ATF busted some chinese businessmen trying to unload a few thousand AK-47's courtesy of Norinco?
A few thousand? Dang, I can't imagine all of those going to gang members. What would they all be brought in for? Underground collectors?
Where, and how, are you going to use 40-some machine guns, explosives, and grenade launchers? If you don't report the stuff, you are going to jail too, in a big way.
You're only going to jail if you get caught. And you'll only get caught if you do something stupid. This guy had them for 40 years and never got caught because he didn't run his mouth off or shoot them all the time, if ever. But if you did want to shoot them then you'd just have to find some secluded place away from prying eyes and ears.
-
A few thousand? Dang, I can't imagine all of those going to gang members. What would they all be brought in for? Underground collectors?
You're only going to jail if you get caught. And you'll only get caught if you do something stupid. This guy had them for 40 years and never got caught because he didn't run his mouth off or shoot them all the time, if ever. But if you did want to shoot them then you'd just have to find some secluded place away from prying eyes and ears.
Here's an article about the little "incident": http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html
-
This really tick me off. I should pay more attention to auctions.
-
Here's an article about the little "incident": http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html
Oh, so it was a sting. Interesting note on that, they paid $700,000 for 2,000 AKs, that's only $350 per AK! And ye we have to pay many many thousands of dollars to own them legally.
-
"The bottom line is people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them."
Reality check for Judge Struve: Them thangs are what are called "arms," and the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution says "the People" (which generally includes mild-mannered court reporters) have a right to keep and bear "arms." Sorry, Judge, but your bottom line laws are contrary to the letter and the intent of the Constitution.
-
First of all let me say I don't have a problem with civilians owning explosives and machine guns. If it was up to me everything up to 155mm would be legal.
My problem is with how the guy got the stuff. He either collaberated with organized crime rings or corrupt soldiers. That essentially means he stole weapons from the military. He stole them from taxpayers!. Hell, if he was just a slightly crazy survivalist who bought 40 AKs from the Mexican Mafia and I was on the jury I would push for aquittal. In effect he stole from my ancestors and helped in corrupting soldiers. The second amendment has nothing to do with this. He should have been punished to the fullest extent of the law.
As for risk? I know Russian grenade fuses go bad, but they won't explode unless the spoon comes off. I don't know about C4 and 40mm fuses/detonators.
-
In my view - and I apologize in advance for offending those whom it may offend - if the law didn't deny him the opportunity to purchase these arms legally, he wouldn't need to steal them from the taxpayers.
-
In my view - and I apologize in advance for offending those whom it may offend - if the law didn't deny him the opportunity to purchase these arms legally, he wouldn't need to steal them from the taxpayers.
The motive doesn't change the fact that he stole from taxpayers and must be punished for it. Maybe if America was different editorialists and senators would use this as an opportunity tospeak up about the right and reasons to bear arms. I know one thing. This isn't much differen't than breaking into my father's house and stealing his money and guns. Burglers should be killed and all theives should be punished.
-
I do not wish to derail this thread altogether, but I will only point out we don't know where the guns in question came from.
"Seeing that we hardly pay our conscripts, the attitude from the conscripts seems to be "We'll quit stealing when they start paying us atleast minimum wage!"
Ha, Viking. Your country sounds a lot like mine. Although in Israel, something being nailed down is no stop to conscripts stealing it. I know of an incident where people stole bars off a window.
-
The motive doesn't change the fact that he stole from taxpayers and must be punished for it. Maybe if America was different editorialists and senators would use this as an opportunity tospeak up about the right and reasons to bear arms. I know one thing. This isn't much differen't than breaking into my father's house and stealing his money and guns. Burglers should be killed and all theives should be punished.
I know it's a long shot, but all of those weapons are of the sort that could've been written off as either lost, or they were never in the system to begin with because they had been given to say the South Vietnamese, and some GI got hold of an extra M-16 and a blooper before the fall of Saigon, and decided to bring them back with him. The AK-47 on the table is most likely a bring-back, probably from Vietnam, the MP-40 and the other German SMG could be from anywhere from WW2 to Vietnam, the Swedish K SMG is probably from the Vietnam era, the BAR could be something that just never got registered when the NFA got into effect. As for the FAL's, AFAIK they were never issued so where they came from is something to ponder.
-
Then one day he failed to pay the bill on the Bellevue locker. Someone bought the contents at auction. Struve's secret was out.
The way my luck runs, if I bought the contents of an abandoned/unpaid storage locker, it wouldn't turn out to be full of munitions - the best I'd wind up with would be boxes and boxes of disposable baby diapers.
Used, of course.
(Although personally, I really would want nothing to do with aging high explosives, old dynamite, etc.)
-
I do not wish to derail this thread altogether, but I will only point out we don't know where the guns in question came from.
Ha, Viking. Your country sounds a lot like mine. Although in Israel, something being nailed down is no stop to conscripts stealing it. I know of an incident where people stole bars off a window.
The "rules" seems to be that you don't steal stuff unless it's consumption goods, the stuff that gets used up quickly, like ammo, grenades, explosives, detcord and also uniforms, boots and underwear. Then we have the people who decide they want to keep their NVG's, or some other expensive piece of kit.
Then there are those who won't be happy with the small stuff. I've heard of motorcycles dissappearing mysteriously just after they were delivered...
Read a story told by a guy who spent part of his time at a facility where they destroy worn out weapons. He and his buddy made a habit of going through the scrap containers, an lo and behold, they found that the people who were supposedly destroying the weapons didn't do so with all of them. After a few months of rummaging through the containers, they had managed to find enough parts to build a full AK-4 rifle from them. They didn't get to keep it though :laugh:.
Funniest story is one from my family though: One of my relatives did his military service about 40 years ago. One Friday when he was going home for the weekend, he brought something extra with him in his bag. A Swedish K SMG. And a shitload of ammo for it. He spent the weekend exterminating various pests at the farm he lived at. Then he reported in the following Monday, and the first thing he did was to hand in the SMG, the empty mags and the kit :laugh:.
-
We had a unit NCO investigated on suspicion of "diverting" a truckload of whiteboards and corkboards.
And of course, computers, furniture, gas, shoewax, guns, grenade launchers, vehicles, laptops, and entire offices will disappear at irregular intervals. The Army once recovered a D-30 breech, 3 tank tracks, and 3 105mm tank barrels from a private house.
-
the only danger i can see is the one already pointed out. explosives that detererate over time and become unstable, making an accedent much more likely. well, that and if someone unscrupalus found the catch, it could have been used.
yes, he stole from the military, but i'm not going to get all fire and brimstone for that. i'm sure the statues of limitations would cover his theft (lawyers feel free to correct me if i'm way off on that one)
the thing that conserns me is the coury mandated phsyceatric counseling. it implies that anyone who worries about TSHTF is bonkers and anyone that choses to keep a errr.. arsonal on hand for what ever reason is a delusional fool.
which pretty much covers the majority on this board. which is not to say that we are all entirely sane, just that are weapons arn't the indicators of our insainity. =D
-
We had a unit NCO investigated on suspicion of "diverting" a truckload of whiteboards and corkboards.
And of course, computers, furniture, gas, shoewax, guns, grenade launchers, vehicles, laptops, and entire offices will disappear at irregular intervals. The Army once recovered a D-30 breech, 3 tank tracks, and 3 105mm tank barrels from a private house.
And I thought it was bad stealing the odd motorcycle and a what must amount to a few hundred kilometers of detcord at this moment :laugh:.
Guns you say? What's your standard issue assault rifle these days? Still use the Galil?
-
I know it's a long shot, but all of those weapons are of the sort that could've been written off as either lost, or they were never in the system to begin with because they had been given to say the South Vietnamese, and some GI got hold of an extra M-16 and a blooper before the fall of Saigon, and decided to bring them back with him. The AK-47 on the table is most likely a bring-back, probably from Vietnam, the MP-40 and the other German SMG could be from anywhere from WW2 to Vietnam, the Swedish K SMG is probably from the Vietnam era, the BAR could be something that just never got registered when the NFA got into effect. As for the FAL's, AFAIK they were never issued so where they came from is something to ponder.
You're right, it is possible, thoug unlikely. If you are right only the explosives were technically stolen. I feel like an ass I posted without looking at the link and other sites. I heard the words "37 machine guns" and "Vietnam War Era" and immediately assumed he had a bunch of M60's. The only guns I've seen are the ones on the table. The media often lies. I've never heard of ARVNs using suppressed M3's, but they did have at least one special forces group. I think you meant the K50M when you mentioned the "other German" subgun.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm)
Funniest story is one from my family though: One of my relatives did his military service about 40 years ago. One Friday when he was going home for the weekend, he brought something extra with him in his bag. A Swedish K SMG. And a shitload of ammo for it. He spent the weekend exterminating various pests at the farm he lived at. Then he reported in the following Monday, and the first thing he did was to hand in the SMG, the empty mags and the kit :laugh:.
Funny story. What did they do to him? Nothing?
Here's a link to more pics: http://www.spokesman.com/photosets/2009/jan/23/ronald-struve-arsenal/ (http://www.spokesman.com/photosets/2009/jan/23/ronald-struve-arsenal/)
-
You're right, it is possible, thoug unlikely. If you are right only the explosives were technically stolen. I feel like an ass I posted without looking at the link and other sites. I heard the words "37 machine guns" and "Vietnam War Era" and immediately assumed he had a bunch of M60's. The only guns I've seen are the ones on the table. The media often lies. I've never heard of ARVNs using suppressed M3's, but they did have at least one special forces group. I think you meant the K50M when you mentioned the "other German" subgun.
Well, I didn't see that he had a bunch of 40mm as well. Had it been handgrenades, well those you could probably make from inert/deactivated greneds should you want to. And AFAIK, back then explosives weren't controlled as they are today.
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm)
Yep, that's the one. I first figured it for a german SMG.
Funny story. What did they do to him? Nothing?
Not sure, but I guess nothing serious.
Different attitudes back in those days. Attitudes were more relaxed in certain ways. Guns were more available, same with explosives, considering all the little bunkers littering the countryside that were filled with weapons, explosives, uniforms, fuel and other things necessary to arm close to 1 million men in case the Russians showed up. I guess the logic were that it if we were prepared to fight against the Russian bear at a moments notice, all those minor things like the occasional storage bunker being emptied was a small price to pay.
-
Different attitudes back in those days. Attitudes were more relaxed in certain ways. Guns were more available, same with explosives, considering all the little bunkers littering the countryside that were filled with weapons, explosives, uniforms, fuel and other things necessary to arm close to 1 million men in case the Russians showed up. I guess the logic were that it if we were prepared to fight against the Russian bear at a moments notice, all those minor things like the occasional storage bunker being emptied was a small price to pay.
The Yugoslavians did something similar. Except they trained women too. They also planned to fight a guerilla war after the invasion was complete. I don't think they had many heavy weapons, so they obviously wouldn't be able to beat the Soviets at their own game. It would be interesting to talk to someone who lived through that era.
-
The Yugoslavians did something similar. Except they trained women too. They also planned to fight a guerilla war after the invasion was complete. I don't think they had many heavy weapons, so they obviously wouldn't be able to beat the Soviets at their own game. It would be interesting to talk to someone who lived through that era.
The Finns did. The Soviets came with 1 million men, 6500 tanks, 3800 aircrafts. The Finns had less than 350.000 men at best, 32 tanks and 114 aircrafts. The Soviets took a severe beating from that experience.
-
The Finns did. The Soviets came with 1 million men, 6500 tanks, 3800 aircrafts. The Finns had less than 350.000 men at best, 32 tanks and 114 aircrafts. The Soviets took a severe beating from that experience.
I'm aware of that. However, I doubt that anyone could beat the soviets in a conventional war without SAMs to shoot down the jets and fast attack aircraft. Holding a line against a highly mechanized and mobile force backed up by 1960's technology with small arms and a few aircraft is probably impossible. To attempt such a thing would be suicide.
-
If I found the guns, I would either contact the previous owner, or hide them in PVC tubes until the NFA is repealed, and then take them out and freely enjoy them.
-
If I found the guns, I would either contact the previous owner, or hide them in PVC tubes until the NFA is repealed, and then take them out and freely enjoy them.
What would you do if it turned out the former owner was in the mafia? I would immediately assume that if I accidentally bought a unit full of full-autos. They wouldn't like it if you hid it. I would probably put it in an unlocked car in the driveway and call him after locking the house. They would eventually find out I had it. If I hid it and they got to me first they would try to kill me.
-
That's true. I meant if I was not able to find the former owner.
-
What strikes me about this story.
I need to start buying auctioned off storage lockers.
Where did this guy find this stuff? If I went a little off and decided I needed a few MG's and a bunch of C4 to repel the red/yellow/brown menace, I wouldn't have the first idea how to go about finding something like that.
Drop me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction. For educational and amusement purposes only of course =D =D =D
-
My problem is with how the guy got the stuff. He either collaberated with organized crime rings or corrupt soldiers. That essentially means he stole weapons from the military. He stole them from taxpayers!.
If he got them from soldiers they were probably people he knew, in which case they weren't doing it for money. So while they might be "stealing" from taxpayers, really they weren't because it is pretty much going to the same purpose. And if anything he can take it from my contribution in tax money. There, now he ain't stealing because I gave him permission, :lol:
edit -
Here's a link to more pics: http://www.spokesman.com/photosets/2009/jan/23/ronald-struve-arsenal/
On page six of those pictures what are the blue ball things?
edit edit - Also, on page six, is it just me or do those rounds look like they have been made inert? It looks like they have had holes drilled in the side of them, or is that something else?
-
I believe this shade of blue is used in the IDF [and, I assume, in the US military too] to denote inert training rounds.
-
The Norinco/Polytech AK incident was driven by the fact that the AKs weren't semi-auto. They were "kind of" semi-auto, but were configured so that Da Switch could be more easily installed. I won't go into the mechanics of it, one can google the difference between a full-auto AK receiver and a semi-auto AK receiver. Granted, damned near anything can be converted from semi-auto to full-auto given enough time and effort, but the BATF felt these guns were just a tad too easy to convert...
-
Is there any truth to the shoelace myth, by the way?
-
I'm aware of that. However, I doubt that anyone could beat the soviets in a conventional war without SAMs to shoot down the jets and fast attack aircraft. Holding a line against a highly mechanized and mobile force backed up by 1960's technology with small arms and a few aircraft is probably impossible. To attempt such a thing would be suicide.
Someone feel free to correct me, but isn't this pretty much the same as the VC vs. the US in Vietnam at the end of the 60's?
-
Is there any truth to the shoelace myth, by the way?
Shoelace myth?
-
There was a picture floating around the internets for a long time that showed a letter from the ATF saying that a shoelace fits the legal definition of a machinegun.
-
There is a rumour, the origins of which I am not capable of pinpointing, claiming that the ATF ruled that, in certain circumstances, a set of shoelaces would legally qualify as a machine gun. I have never seen the ruling itself.
-
Is there any truth to the shoelace myth, by the way?
Yes, the shoelace trick works.
That's all the further I'm going to go into that one, though.
-
Yes, the shoelace trick works.
That's all the further I'm going to go into that one, though.
Oh, I never asked if it works.
I wonder if there really is a legal ruling to the tune that "shoelaces are machineguns".
-
How can a shoelace be machine gun? A shoelace has nothing to do with guns at all. A shoelace is used on shoes, for tying them so they stay on your feet.
-
How can a shoelace be machine gun? A shoelace has nothing to do with guns at all. A shoelace is used on shoes, for tying them so they stay on your feet.
See, citizen, you're using regular logic. You should be using BATFE logic.
-
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Findietravelpodcast.com%2Fwp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fhomer-doh-square.jpg&hash=f86ab32ca6e152cfe353fdd0ff5f93b8c673c002)
-
How can a shoelace be machine gun? A shoelace has nothing to do with guns at all. A shoelace is used on shoes, for tying them so they stay on your feet.
This link should clarify for you:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=163966
As this has been ruled opinion'ed as construction of an illegal machine gun, we're not going to discuss particular implementation here on APS.
I wonder if there really is a legal ruling to the tune that "shoelaces are machineguns".
Ruling? As in court ruling?
Well, no. I don't think so, anyway.
But, if you write the BATF with a question, they will provide legal advice about the question based on how they interpreted it. One of these questions involved the shoelace device, and the response was that it was a machine gun.
-
Thanks for the linky. ... Sounds like all it is is bump firing, but with STRING POWER! Stop living in the stone age using just your finger and the laws of physics and get into the 21st century with the item that is all the rage and get strings. =D
-
This link should clarify for you:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=163966
The image 404s.
-
The image 404s.
Dude, use the awesome power of google.
Link (http://web.archive.org/web/20060708014829/http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg)
-
I'm amazed at how far some people will go to get the full auto effect. It ain't all its cracked up to be.
-
I'm amazed at how far some people will go to get the full auto effect. It ain't all its cracked up to be.
This. Full-auto is a terrible thing to do to a good rifle. Ersatz full-auto, even were it legalized, would still be a crime against the gun gods.
Now a real machine gun on the other hand, has a beauty all its own. =)
-
Dude, use the awesome power of google.
Link (http://web.archive.org/web/20060708014829/http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg)
Is that real? :O
I'm amazed at how far some people will go to get the full auto effect. It ain't all its cracked up to be.
I think the reason most people do it is because we should be able to and shouldn't have to go through all the different loops just to get one.