Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on August 26, 2009, 10:58:29 AM
-
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090826/us_nm/us_kennedy
Swim in peace, Teddy. =|
-
If this thread goes down the same path as the previous one, it too will be locked.
Chris
-
If this thread goes down the same path as the previous one, it too will be locked.
Chris
In that spirit, I offer up "no comment."
-
In the new spirit on various boards of showing sympathy to famous criminals, we simply need to adopt Orrin Hatch's viewpoint and call the recently Martyred St. Kennedy's transgressions "water under the bridge."
-
=D
In the new spirit on various boards of showing sympathy to famous criminals, we simply need to adopt Orrin Hatch's viewpoint and call the recently Martyred St. Kennedy's transgressions "water under the bridge."
My new sig line, if you don't mind... =D
-
In the new spirit on various boards of showing sympathy to famous criminals, we simply need to adopt Orrin Hatch's viewpoint and call the recently Martyred St. Kennedy's transgressions "water under the bridge."
We're not showing sympathy, we're simply not going to drag his corpse through the street.
I'm not sure why this is so hard to grok especially considering the righteous indignation if this were Reagan being trashed on DU.
Chris
-
We're not showing sympathy, we're simply not going to drag his corpse through the street.
I'm not sure why this is so hard to grok especially considering the righteous indignation if this were Reagan being trashed on DU.
Chris
I agree, and temper my comments thusly: I suspect that inside he was a deeply unhappy person.
Generaly, those who are associated with womanizing and alcoholisim fit that mold. Something akin to Bill Maher who's well known for off-camera benders and frequenting prostitutes. Essentialy covering pain with addictions.
And I further suspect it found it's roots in his brothers being "rising stars" within the family and local community long before Joe Kennedy's other two boys were household names, which then only added to the pathology. Then their deaths compounding it further, with a double whammy of grief over the loss of close family, the public reaction and lionization, and perhaps guilt, and other troubled emotions from whatever else he had felt for them.
There is something to the "Kennedy Tragedy", in the family's blood, or psychology. I think Ted could have been the ideal Constitutional die-hard conservative-libertarian of all time, and he would still have been a very troubled man.
-
One small difference is that Reagan never left a woman to drown to death in a river and didn't bother to tell anyone until the cops contacted him.
It's not dragging a corpse through the road to 1) state that someone who pretty much epitomized everything wrong with this country (creation of a ruling political class, abrogation of the Constitution, advocacy of the elimination of specifically enumerated rights, the avoidance of personal responsibility, etc) is no longer in a position to do direct harm and 2) to hope that his legacy will not be used to ramrod through legislation that fulfills his goals at the expense of the nation and the people.
Honestly, this guy did more damage to the nation than an 18 year old who knocks over a convenience store. Yet, there's not much outrage if the 18 year old gets eliminated by any means from the gene pool and people are glad of it.
-
I won't speak ill of Kennedy specifically. I will say, in general, not everyone deserves respect after their death. Respect is earned, and some people just plain don't earn it.
Respect those who deserve it, not those who don't.
-
I have sympathy for the family & friends who loved him, despite his flaws. I read elsewhere, from a conservative journal, that he was frequently at R Catholic Mass. For the sake of his soul, I sincerely hope that he repented of his sin and had a genuine faith in Christ as his savior.
His passing can not, uh, pass without noting that his influence was the most damaging to America since that of Woodrow Wilson and that the damage caused by EMK has been more lasting and profound that that of WW.
That he is gone is a burden and grief to his loved ones and a relief to the rest of America.
-
Ted Kennedy at times was a helper/voice for the working class people, well I don't agree with many of the things he did in his life, he did at times try to take of the little guy.
-
Honestly, this guy did more damage to the nation than an 18 year old who knocks over a convenience store. Yet, there's not much outrage if the 18 year old gets eliminated by any means from the gene pool and people are glad of it.
On one hand I agree.
On the other, the 18 year old does not have ramifications beyond his individual personhood. An elected official of the Republic does.
Even if you disagree with their politics, when someone is summerialy removed from office, the institution and that office are weakened. And the state and the people themselves often respond in ways that dilute the republic even further. If JFK and RFK hadn't been assasinated, would we ever have had the '68 GCA? Would Ted himself have ever been elevated to office?
So while I'm unhappy with his political legacy, I'm glad he only left office through living out his natural life span.
In a less extreme example, the "societal outrage" that "ought" to be there over Ted Kennedy's political beliefs and votes and personal character had removed or blocked him from office via quasi or extra-legal means peacefully, would still have damaged our institutions more than the man himself could have. A pendulum swings both ways.
Unfortunately, suffering legislators like Ted Kennedy is one of the prices of having a free society and limited government.
-
he did at times try to take of the little guy.
Indeed. Take of, take from, however you phrase it... I'm the little guy and he sure as heck tried to take of me.
-
If this thread goes down the same path as the previous one, it too will be locked.
Chris
I obviously missed how the last thread degraded to the point it was locked. It's hard to stay up on the minute to minute postings.
Was it totally deleted?
Meh... never mind, I have to follow my wife down to the car repair place and then bring her home. She needs to drop the tractor off to have a nail removed from a tire. Life intrudes on the internet. In the scheme of things, that has much more impact on my life than the demise of a politician.
-
Rest in peace Mary Jo.
-
I'll give him one thing - he was dedicated and worked hard. Perhaps on the wrong things...but still. It would have been very easy for him to pursue a quiet, comfortable, privileged, private life. You'd think that seeing two brothers die in the line of duty (so to speak), he would have gone the private route. I won't miss him, but I'll let him RIP.
-
I'll say this: Ted Kennedy's death got one column on the front page of our local paper and a finishing column on page 12 with the headline stating he had a checkered past. The article said he was a champion of the working class and the poor. I was offended by that characterization.
On the other hand, Army Cpl. Nick Roush had 2/3 of page 3 and all of page 4 of the same edition of The Press. This was the 3rd story about Cpl. Roush. He's had the front page and at least 2 full other pages in each of two earlier editions of the local paper in the last week or so.
Cpl. Nick Roush, age 22, United States Army, Middleville, Mi., a town nearby, a son, brother, with many friends, was laid to rest yesterday with full millitary honors. Cpl. Roush gave his life in Afghanistan a week ago Sunday in defense of the innocent Afghan people, on behalf of the people of the United States of America.
-
I'm sure he had good intentions for the poor. He was mistaken in how to do that and vilified his opponents because they disagreed with him, but I will not do the same. Like most liberals, he thought his position was one of empathy and mercy.
I am glad he is no longer able to affect this country. I am not glad he's dead. May God have mercy on his soul.
-
Cpl. Nick Roush, age 22, United States Army, Middleville, Mi., a town nearby, a son, brother, with many friends, was laid to rest yesterday with full millitary honors. Cpl. Roush gave his life in Afghanistan a week ago Sunday in defense of the innocent Afghan people, on behalf of the people of the United States of America.
RIP to an American Patriot.
-
My response here will be similar to another board where I first read about it.
1. He had longer from when he was diagnosed than my grandmother did.
2. I disagreed with his politics, but did not wish him dead. Retired maybe, though I'll acknowledge that death was likely the only thing to budge Kennedy from his seat.
3. The incident, in my opinion, would have been manslaughter at most, not murder.
-
As a religious man, I truly hope and pray he repented before he died.
-
I've thought of several snotty things to say à propos his death, but will forego the admittedly dubious pleasure.
Jack Kennedy had the courage to take a (reluctant) stand against racial segregation. He had plenty of flaws, some deeply serious, but that much courage at a time when America was unpersuaded that kind of segregation was a terrible wrong.
Bobby Kennedy was a statist-socialist-leftist extremist; to his credit, however, he had the courage to stand up against racial segregation.
The last of the political Kennedy brothers stood for everything that was wrong and nothing that was right. The so-called "welfare" he championed was at least as great an evil as all the Jim Crow laws that were ever passed, and the rest of his leftist extremism was every bit as bad. He could have transcended his brothers' deaths.
I won't be surprised if the Kennedy name ends up being attached to the socialist horror that's being passed off as so-called "health care reform," which Jack Kennedy would have vetoed.
-
We're not showing sympathy, we're simply not going to drag his corpse through the street.
I'm not sure why this is so hard to grok especially considering the righteous indignation if this were Reagan being trashed on DU.
Chris
Mtnbkr echoes the sentiment of pretty much the entire staff.
-
As a religious man, I truly hope and pray he repented before he died.
Agreed....and I'll continue to pray for his family in this difficult time, too.....
-
Some religions don't require repentance.
:laugh:
-
Some religions don't require repentance.
:laugh:
The ones that count do.... :angel:
-
Hopefully it wasn't my comment that got the last thread deleted, but if this post disappears, I'll get the hint . . .
The man responsible for the death of Mary Jo Kopechne is now facing a Judge who's beyond the influence of money and politics.
-
I like to separate the man from the deeds. As a man Ted experienced more horrors in life than most. The brutal murder of brothers is enough to send normal mortals over the edge. Instead of rocking back and enjoying the fruits of his family's wealth he opted for a life of public service. He was flawed as all humans are flawed. One of his actions was especially chilling. I suspect his iron determination to stay in the public light had a lot to do with his burden of the legacy of two murdered public servants. Something drove him to stay public. I feel quite sorry for his immediate family and I sincerely hope he made peace with the Almighty before dying.
Now to what he did. His name is associated with a lot of the legislative decisions some consider to be detrimental to the republic. Healthcare gets the press now but let us remember he was a fanatical proponent of gun control. His legislation give us HMO's. He was the architect of the change in immigration policy which gave us the problems we face today. He offered support to our enemies during the Vietnam war. He conspired with the Soviet KGB to defeat Reagan's introduction of medium range missiles in Europe. He was instrumental in the emasculation of the intelligence community after the Watergate mess. I could go on but won't. I hope an enterprising researcher produces an exhaustive study of Ted Kennedy's legislative history so that an honest record of his impact can be made public.
I do not like the socialist / fascist tack our country is taking. I keep asking why no one is speaking of rollback of what we find so objectionable. A good place to start the discussion is an analysis of Ted Kennedy's legislative "accomplishments".
-
Instead of rocking back and enjoying the fruits of his family's wealth he opted for a life of public service.
Huh? ???
-
I'll merely quote Mark Twain:
"I've never killed a man, but I've read many an obituary with a great deal of satisfaction."
-
I nearly had a heart attack!
Every time I read "Ted", I just automatically think "Nugent".
-
I hope an enterprising researcher produces an exhaustive study of Ted Kennedy's legislative history so that an honest record of his impact can be made public.
A good place to start the discussion is an analysis of Ted Kennedy's legislative "accomplishments".
His record is kind of scant. A logical person may think anyone who served in Congress for more than forty years would have quite a bit of bills that could be directly linked to them. He doesn't seem to have many of those links.
I did find this:
He was caught cheating at Harvard when he attended first attended the school. He was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him.
While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England, pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea, where a war was raging. No accusations of preferential treatment for him. However he was a prime accuser of that towards former President Bush. Kennedy was assigned to Paris, never advanced beyond the rank of private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.
While attending law school at the University of Virginia, he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked.
In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. Test results done by the hospital at the time he was admitted had shown he was legally intoxicated. The results of those tests remained a "state secret" until in the 1980's when the report was unsealed.
I'm sure there will be a lot more coming to light now that he died.
-
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident)
Discovery of the body
Earlier that morning, two amateur fishermen had seen the overturned car in the water and notified the inhabitants of the cottage nearest to the pond, who called the authorities at around 8:20 am.[15] A diver was sent down and discovered Kopechne's body at around 8:45 am.[16] The diver, John Farrar, later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air bubble, and concluded that
“ Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car.[9] ”
Farrar believed that Kopechne "lived for at least two hours down there."
-
I heard Jimmy Carter say he made up for that with all the hard work he did in congress.
-
I heard Jimmy Carter say he made up for that with all the hard work he did in congress.
As sick as that is, it has been echoed with an article in today's Guardian that makes much the same points, albeit far more explicitly and with a hypocrisy (given that elsewhere in the Guardian Dan Hannan is attacked for saying that Enoch Powell was a hero of his) that has rarely been equalled anywhere:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa
I can only hope it is an elaborate joke, but it does not appear to be so.
-
Every time I read "Ted", I just automatically think "Nugent".
I just keep waiting for Good Ted to write an article, or better yet, a rock ballad, about Evil Ted's life.
-
I heard Jimmy Carter say he made up for that with all the hard work he did in congress.
....so says the President who would go to the Oval Office at 5am to look like he was "working hard for the people", yet would be napping on the couch for most of the morning.... ;/
-
Well, it's all good. Obama has now been called the last Kennedy. So the legacy lives on.
-
Well, it's all good. Obama has now been called the last Kennedy. So the legacy lives on.
That's good...he has a title now since Bill Clinton was called the first black president by Maya Angelou.... ;/
-
I'm a little taken back by the royal treatment with military guard and so forth at the viewing at the JFK library. I don't recall that he served in the military. The man was born with a silver spoon and lived his life accordingly; do as I say and not as I do. His request to the MA governor concerning appointing a democratic successor versus the special election just reflects his self image. BHO delivers a personal letter from Teddie to the Pope. Teddie, rest in peace. I hope God forgives you.
-
I'm a little taken back by the royal treatment with military guard and so forth at the viewing at the JFK library. I don't recall that he served in the military. The man was born with a silver spoon and lived his life accordingly; do as I say and not as I do. His request to the MA governor concerning appointing a democratic successor versus the special election just reflects his self image. BHO delivers a personal letter from Teddie to the Pope. Teddie, rest in peace. I hope God forgives you.
I think he served a coupla years in the Army between getting kicked out of Harvard (cheating? bad grades? something like that) and being allowed back in a few years later. As I recall, he spent his Army years as a Private serving in Paris, despite the Korean War going on at the time.
-
I think he served a coupla years in the Army between getting kicked out of Harvard (cheating? bad grades? something like that) and being allowed back in a few years later. As I recall, he spent his Army years as a Private serving in Paris, despite the Korean War going on at the time.
[sarcasm]BUT MSNBC DECLARED HIM A KOREAN WAR VET!!!1ONE! HOW DARE YOU IMPUNE HIS SERVICE![/sarcasm]
The man served the Senate for alot of years. Strom Thurmond got similar treatment.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3382%2F3301234461_662df7ce2b.jpg&hash=6f6f33c6f8bad2fffb759d7ba3f9ed99a9a164cb)
-
way i heard it he accidentally signed up for 4 years daddy pulled strings got it changed to 2 year hitch i had to set a couple flags to 1/2 mast for him yesterday. gave me a funny feeling doing that. heck we don't honor kids who die in combat like that
-
i had to set a couple flags to 1/2 mast for him yesterday.
That's just grotesque . . . I suppose when he passes, we'll be expected to do the same for O. J. Simpson, who killed two people and walked. :mad:
-
I honestly don't care if he was in the military or not. I just never remembered it being mentioned. His Father probably sat him down and said... Teddie, if you want to run for political office as I would like you to, you need to serve in the military. Not to be political, but I hope this helps to put a nail in the huge health care proposal and perhaps if they do anything, they look at some incremental changes which is what was suggested to Bush after the illegal alien bill fell on its face.
-
The man served the Senate for alot of years. Strom Thurmond got similar treatment.
After the outbreak of World War II, Strom Thurmond resigned from the bench to serve in the U.S. Army, rising to Lieutenant Colonel. In the Battle of Normandy (June 6 – August 25, 1944), he landed in a glider attached to the 82nd Airborne Division. For his military service, he received 18 decorations, medals and awards, including the Legion of Merit with Oak Leaf Cluster, Bronze Star with Valor device, Purple Heart, World War II Victory Medal, European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal, Belgium's Order of the Crown and France's Croix de Guerre. During 1954–55 he was president of the Reserve Officers Association. He later retired from the U.S. Army Reserves with the rank of Major General.
I think Strom got the military funeral because he was highly decorated retired US Army Reserve Major General, not because he was a Senator.
Teddy got drafted into the Army after Havard threw him out for cheating. Daddy pulled strings to get him sent to Paris and not Korea.
C&SD,
I believe you set your flags to half-staff, unless you're flying those flags from a boat or ship. :cool:
-
I honestly don't care if he was in the military or not.
Hate to say it, but as a military vet, he was entitled to a military funeral, same as me. My Arlington internment paperwork will now have an additional request that plainly states I shall be planted on the opposite side of the cemetary from Ted, preferably uphill so that his alcohol-preserved remains don't leach into my own casket.
-
Hate to say it, but as a military vet, he was entitled to a military funeral, same as me. My Arlington internment paperwork will now have an additional request that plainly states I shall be planted on the opposite side of the cemetary from Ted, preferably uphill so that his alcohol-preserved remains don't leach into my own casket.
While I agree that Ted does deserve a military funeral, he does not however deserve to be buried at Arlington. :mad:
-
Hate to say it, but as a military vet, he was entitled to a military funeral, same as me. My Arlington internment paperwork will now have an additional request that plainly states I shall be planted on the opposite side of the cemetary from Ted, preferably uphill so that his alcohol-preserved remains don't leach into my own casket.
I wonder how many other people's paperwork will say something similar...
-
The honor of Arlington was tainted years ago when Politicians started selling plots. The ones who got in by honorable means will be remembered the others, eh.. not so much.
-
We're not showing sympathy, we're simply not going to drag his corpse through the street.
I'm not sure why this is so hard to grok especially considering the righteous indignation if this were Reagan being trashed on DU.
Chris
QFT!!
If one wishes to claim the moral high ground, then it usually behooves one to actually hold that ground.
Dems/kooks/ne'r-do-wells may crow over the deaths of those they're against, but that doesn't mean we have to do the same.
In any case, may he rest in peace.
-
If he wasn't a killer, I might be inclined to take the high road so to speak. But the fact is, he killed someone. That changes everything for me.
-
If he wasn't a killer, I might be inclined to take the high road so to speak. But the fact is, he killed someone. That changes everything for me.
Agreed, so I guess I'll say nothing about that "person", as my membership here isn't worth the risk. =|
-
If he wasn't a killer, I might be inclined to take the high road so to speak. But the fact is, he killed someone. That changes everything for me.
While it would appear so, he was never convicted.
-
what did he plead to? i forget
-
Leaving the scene of the accident or something like that.
Chris
-
Not familiar with Taxachusett state law, but if his name wasn't Kennedy would that have been manslaughter or negligent homicide? I'm thinking negligent homicide, but like I say I know as little as possible about that state.
-
If one wishes to claim the moral high ground, then it usually behooves one to actually hold that ground.
Dems/kooks/ne'r-do-wells may crow over the deaths of those they're against, but that doesn't mean we have to do the same.
In any case, may he rest in peace.
We hold the moral high ground regardless.
-
Interestingly, ABC News is running a blog about "What do the Kennedys mean to you?"
I think they were expecting a bunch of gushy comments about the "American Royalty", but instead are getting around 99% negative comments. I can't believe it's all "right wing extremists" as the 1% of "positive" posts claim. Seems like there is a pretty good political mix not all that enthralled with Camelot.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theworldnewser/2009/08/what-do-the-kennedys-mean-to-you/comments/page/1/#comments
-
Interestingly, ABC News is running a blog about "What do the Kennedys mean to you?"
I think they were expecting a bunch of gushy comments about the "American Royalty", but instead are getting around 99% negative comments. I can't believe it's all "right wing extremists" as the 1% of "positive" posts claim. Seems like there is a pretty good political mix not all that enthralled with Camelot.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theworldnewser/2009/08/what-do-the-kennedys-mean-to-you/comments/page/1/#comments
WOW, I read quite a ways down and didn't see one positive comment. However, there is some pretty good snark.
The Shrivers were nice.
He reminds us that stimulus money needs to be diverted to building guard rails for bridges.
-
Last I check the only Americans enthused with royalty is the media. Joe and Martha Sixpack ain't got the time of day for pomposity.
-
I am ill.
I just read that Teddy was buried in Arlington, and received a military rifle salute. How does he come to be buried among the heroes of this country? How did he rate a military rifle salute? Teddy Kennedy never served a day in uniform. {Edit: I have been informed that he did spend a minimum enlistment as a Private, in Germany, during the Korean Conflict.}
And then there was this:
At a packed funeral Mass earlier Saturday in his hometown, Edward Kennedy was remembered as a fierce competitor, a tender-hearted father, and, in the words of President Obama, "the greatest legislator of all time."
Where is that :BARF: icon when I need it? I can't believe even Obama would stoop to calling Teddy the greatest legislator of all time. That's not only an insult to the great legislators who have gone before him, it's also an insult to the many mediocre legislators who were, nonethelesss, better than he.
Excuse me, I have to go throw up ...
-
Ted Kennedy at times was a helper/voice for the working class people, well I don't agree with many of the things he did in his life, he did at times try to take of the little guy.
This. I may not agree with a lot of his stances, he seemed like a more principled guy than most of our other congress critters these days, especially in his last 15 years.
He never knew what it was like to struggle, yet he always had his eye out for those of us struggling. I didn't agree with a lot of his methods for helping the little guy out, but he was looking out for his constituents, unlike 90% of congress these days.
-
Had he cared one bit about the little guy, he would have checked to see whether his methods were helping or hurting. The road to a broken country is paved with good intentions and dead Kennedys.
No, not the band; the politicians.
-
Last I check the only Americans enthused with royalty is the media. Joe and Martha Sixpack ain't got the time of day for pomposity.
Yeah, history shows they have more important things to obsess over, like Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Anna Nichole Smith and other paragons of importance.
-
Excuse me, I have to go throw up ...
Easy big fella. Can I get you some koolaid?
See, your mistake was watching that drivel. I watched Andy Griffith all day, my blood pressure is probably still a bit lower than it should be from all that Mayberry goodness. :laugh:
My first hint that I should find TV solitude amongst the massive coverage was when I heard Biden say he led a heroic life.
-
I may not agree with a lot of his stances, he seemed like a more principled guy than most of our other congress critters these days, especially in his last 15 years.
I believe you may be confusing consistency with principles. Many other legislators shift their positions with overnight polls and campaign contributions, showing that they, in fact, stand for nothing.
But Teddy could be counted on to do the wrong thing and espouse the wrong position with regularity; I don't equate consistent bad behavior - in both public and private affairs - with principles.
-
I think Teddy was sincere in his beliefs. He was also wrong more often than not.
-
I believe you may be confusing consistency with principles. Many other legislators shift their positions with overnight polls and campaign contributions, showing that they, in fact, stand for nothing.
But Teddy could be counted on to do the wrong thing and espouse the wrong position with regularity; I don't equate consistent bad behavior - in both public and private affairs - with principles.
Wrong is a moral relativity. In his heart, he believed it was right. If only we could get some conservative leadership with that level of fortitude. Considering the right-bent nature of our populous, we might actually have a conservative government.
-
I see CNN is reporting that he asked the Pope to pray for him. A copy of the letter to the Pope is included in the article. Nowhere do I read in that letter any mention of remorse for Mary Jo.
-
Wrong is a moral relativity. In his heart, he believed it was right.
In his heart, Jim Jones probably believed he was right.
-
In his heart, Jim Jones probably believed he was right.
...as did your friendly neighborhood child molester....
-
....and Mao....
(this could keep going for days)
-
But it won't. Comparing Ted Kennedy to Mao and Jim Jones?
:rolleyes: