Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: roo_ster on September 03, 2009, 11:22:24 AM
-
Nice to know that if a guy rapes another guy up the exhaust pipe, its not gay, 'cause the other guy wasn't willing. Very helpful, that bit of data. And that raping female virgins who oppose the gov't is not only allowed, but rewarded in the afterlife.
What fine, civilized people.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=133214
Ahmadinejad's Imam: Islam Allows Raping, Torturing Prisoners
Elul 12, 5769, 01 September 09 04:09
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
(Israelnationalnews.com) A highly influential Shi'a religious leader, with whom Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regularly consults, apparently told followers last month that coercion by means of rape, torture and drugs is acceptable against all opponents of the Islamic regime.
Warning: The imam's question-and-answer session, partially reproduced here, contains disturbing descriptions of the sanctioned brutality.
In the wake of a series of publications worldwide regarding the rape and torture of dissident prisoners in Iran's jails, supporters of Ahmadinejad gathered with him in Jamkaran, a popular pilgrimage site for Shi'ite Muslims on the outskirts of Qom, on August 11, 2009. According to Iranian pro-democracy sources, the gathered crowd heard from Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi and Ahmadinejad himself regarding the issue.
According to the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), an independent Israeli intelligence analysis organization, Mesbah-Yazdi is considered Ahmadinejad's personal spiritual guide. A radical totalitarian even in Iranian terms, he holds messianic views, supports increasing Islamization, calls for violent suppression of domestic political opponents, and, according to the ITIC, "declared that obeying a president supported by the Supreme Leader was tantamount to obeying God."
At the Jamkaran gathering, Mesbah-Yazdi and Ahmadinejad answered questions about the rape and torture charges. The following text is from a transcript alleged by Iranian dissidents to be a series of questions and answers exchanged between the ayatollah and some of his supporters.
Asked if a confession obtained "by applying psychological, emotional and physical pressure" was "valid and considered credible according to Islam," Mesbah-Yazdi replied: "Getting a confession from any person who is against the Velayat-e Faqih ("Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists", or the regime of Iran's mullahs) is permissible under any condition." The ayatollah gave the identical answer when asked about confessions obtained through drugging the prisoner with opiates or addictive substances.
"Can an interrogator rape the prisoner in order to obtain a confession?" was the follow-up question posed to the Islamic cleric.
Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The necessary precaution is for the interrogator to perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner. If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus. It is better not to have a witness present. If it is a male prisoner, then it's acceptable for someone else to watch while the rape is committed."
This reply, and reports of the rape of teen male prisoners in Iranian jails, may have prompted the following question: "Is the rape of men and young boys considered sodomy?"
One aspect of these permitted rapes troubled certain questioners.
Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi: "No, because it is not consensual. Of course, if the prisoner is aroused and enjoys the rape, then caution must be taken not to repeat the rape."
A related issue, in the eyes of the questioners, was the rape of virgin female prisoners. In this instance, Mesbah-Yazdi went beyond the permissibility issue and described the Allah-sanctioned rewards accorded the rapist-in-the-name-of-Islam:
"If the judgment for the [female] prisoner is execution, then rape before execution brings the interrogator a spiritual reward equivalent to making the mandated Haj pilgrimage [to Mecca], but if there is no execution decreed, then the reward would be equivalent to making a pilgrimage to [the Shi'ite holy city of] Karbala."
Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The child borne to any weakling [a denigrating term for women - ed.] who is against the Supreme Leader is considered illegitimate, be it a result of rape by her interrogator or through intercourse with her husband, according to the written word in the Koran. However, if the child is raised by the jailer, then the child is considered a legitimate Shi'a Muslim." %ad%
-
FUBAR.
-
Nice to know that if a guy rapes another guy up the exhaust pipe, its not gay, 'cause the other guy wasn't willing.
I'm not suprised.
I was reading a thread over at Lightfighter a few months ago. Several vets posted how they would often come across Iraqis and Afghanis going at it with each other or with livestock, and how American soldiers would often be leered at and such. And homosexuality was accepted until marriage, as it really didn't count as homosexuality until then. Weird.
-
Oh, I want to point out that the Islam in the title is
the crazy bastards' (Ahmadinejad & Mesbah-Yazdi) Islam.
I would assume (hope?) that this is a minority position in Islam.
-
For the sake of this thread's longevity, I'll play along with that assumption, too.
-
I'm not suprised.
I was reading a thread over at Lightfighter a few months ago. Several vets posted how they would often come across Iraqis and Afghanis going at it with each other or with livestock, and how American soldiers would often be leered at and such. And homosexuality was accepted until marriage, as it really didn't count as homosexuality until then. Weird.
So the whole "countries with a high proportion of man/goat relationships" thing isn't just a joke?
Eew.
-
Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi: "No, because it is not consensual. Of course, if the prisoner is aroused and enjoys the rape, then caution must be taken not to repeat the rape."
Note to self and others, if ever being raped in an Iranian prison pretend it is the hottest thing that has ever happened to you.
-
I'm not suprised.
I was reading a thread over at Lightfighter a few months ago. Several vets posted how they would often come across Iraqis and Afghanis going at it with each other or with livestock, and how American soldiers would often be leered at and such. And homosexuality was accepted until marriage, as it really didn't count as homosexuality until then. Weird.
When my friend went to Iraq, he says they received frequent offers of money and/or goats in exchange for the blond female medic in their unit. He says they had a terrible time trying to get across the idea that Americans don't buy and sell women.
-
INN is approximately Israel's equivalent of WND and Newsmax, except for a reputation for really not liking Muslims.
-
When my friend went to Iraq, he says they received frequent offers of money and/or goats in exchange for the blond female medic in their unit. He says that had a terrible time trying to get across the idea that Americans don't buy and sell women.
Why did an image of John Belushi just pop into my head?
INN is approximately Israel's equivalent of WND and Newsmax, except for a reputation for really not liking Muslims.
Handy information.
-
So the whole "countries with a high proportion of man/goat relationships" thing isn't just a joke?
Eew.
Apparently not.
And until I read that thread, I, too, thought it was merely a joke.
-
INN is approximately Israel's equivalent of WND and Newsmax, except for a reputation for really not liking Muslims.
Micro, any indication that WND style, important info has been omitted or taken out of context? Faulty Farsi?
On the other hand can you really take
If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus.
out of context?
-
Micro, any indication that WND style, important info has been omitted or taken out of context? Faulty Farsi?
These people have a history of either inventing stuff out of thin air or exaggerating its importance.
For example, during te disengagement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan) in Gaza, for example, they claimed that the GSS was planning to build massive camps to intern the settlers in (it turned out that a temporary tent camp to house the settlers for a month or so was debated and turned down by GSS, and no serious plans to build camps were ever discussed by anybody involved).
-
Micro: are you saying that the quotes are totally made up then? Distortion and exaggeration I understand, but you're referring to something very different. No opinion either way myself, just curious.
-
Yeah, I'm curious if we have any evidence that the quotes in question have been fabricated.
It's one thing to say that a news outlet has said some dumb things in the past. It's something else entirely to say that they're wrong in this specific instance. So, do we have any reason to believe they're wrong in this specific instance?
-
I'm saying that it is possible that these quotes have been misattributed, or mistranslated, or taken out of context. It's possible they've been said by some guy in IRan who is a marginal entity there, or possibly have not occured at all.
When an outlandish claim is made, a higher standard of proof is required. I would like to see a more mainstream source before I draw my conclusions.
-
I'm saying that it is possible that these quotes have been misattributed, or mistranslated, or taken out of context. It's possible they've been said by some guy in IRan who is a marginal entity there, or possibly have not occured at all.
When an outlandish claim is made, a higher standard of proof is required. I would like to see a more mainstream source before I draw my conclusions.
I we desire to dig deeper, where should we dig?
-
I have an MB-style answer to that:
Wikipedia. =D
-
Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The child borne to any weakling [a denigrating term for women - ed.] who is against the Supreme Leader is considered illegitimate, be it a result of rape by her interrogator or through intercourse with her husband, according to the written word in the Koran. However, if the child is raised by the jailer, then the child is considered a legitimate Shi'a Muslim."
What a sicko/psycho.
I'd really like to have a cite for exactly where the Q'uran says that.
-
Yeesh, and we thought Rev. Wright was bad?
-
INN is approximately Israel's equivalent of WND and Newsmax, except for a reputation for really not liking Muslims.
So being as it's only twice as reliable as ABCNBCCBS, we shouldn't unquestionably accept everything they write? =D
-
I have an MB-style answer to that:
Wikipedia. =D
Wikipedia sources most of its statements. This makes them better than 90% of conventional news sources. =D =D
-
I'm not suprised.
I was reading a thread over at Lightfighter a few months ago. Several vets posted how they would often come across Iraqis and Afghanis going at it with each other or with livestock, and how American soldiers would often be leered at and such. And homosexuality was accepted until marriage, as it really didn't count as homosexuality until then. Weird.
I have heard from two or three different sources that homosexuality is very prevalent over there.
One guy I worked with for a while worked in Saudi for a few years and his term was "rampant". I think he was referring to Saudi and Bahrain.
Regarding the OP, I have heard from other sources that it was in Iran, it was against the rules to execute a virgin so they would basically marry the prisoner to one of the guards who would basically rape them so they could be executed the following day. I don't remember what the source was. I read it back when all the rioting was going on. Either way, the other information in the OP doesn't surprise me much, but, yeah, it might not all be true.
-
One guy I worked with for a while worked in Saudi for a few years and his term was "rampant". I think he was referring to Saudi and Bahrain.
Indeed I've read an article about the sex life of people in the UAE.
Apparently a lot of young people get married, only to discover the males' only sexual experience is with other men.
For this reason, the chief Mufti [is that the right term?] of that country endorsed a sex manual for young men and women, complete with photographic illustrations which would be considered porn in most of the world.
-
For this reason, the chief Mufti [is that the right term?] of that country endorsed a sex manual for young men and women, complete with photographic illustrations which would be considered porn in most of the world.
I gotta respect that action. Dude's taking practical steps to solve a pretty serious problem.
-
And the manual was written by a woman. So much for the image of Muslims as rabid women-haters.
-
:rolleyes:
Middle Eastern Muslims view (legally and culturally) women as untermensch.
-
Oh %$#@!
WTF is wrong with people!?! I would say "that guy" but I think this goes a bit further than that. I'm beginning to think that a sizable portion of the world's population is seriously messed up beyond repair.
I mean seriously, messed up. :O
You know what the Middle East, The Far East, The West, The South, The North, and just about every other human populated part of this earth needs?
A good shot of common sense and respect. I swear, if I ever build a deathray on the moon and declare myself emperor, I am gonna make all the crazies, loons, freaks, whack-jobs, and just about everybody else toe the line when it comes to basic respect for their fellow man. =D
-
I swear, if I ever build a deathray on the moon and declare myself emperor, I am gonna make all the crazies, loons, freaks, whack-jobs, and just about everybody else toe the line when it comes to basic respect for their fellow man. =D
Respect for the fellow man is not the issue here. What seems to be seriously lacking is respect for the fellow women ...
-
Respect for the fellow man is not the issue here. What seems to be seriously lacking is respect for the fellow women ...
Well, that and a seriously warped sense of right and wrong. I am amazed sometimes at this ability to lawyer their way into justifying evil. Not just a few leaders who say its okay, but the willingness of so many to just say "great, we can do that now". I don't know many muslims, but I would hope most don't care for that stuff.
Yes, I realize that happens in other religions, including my own. The way some of the Muslims do it is just seems foreign to me though.
-
A highly influential Shi'a religious leader, with whom Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regularly consults,
"He's really not my religious mentor, and I don't agree with him at all....I only went to his church for 20 years."
Uhhh, never mind... that was some US politician who said that.
-
Respect for the fellow man is not the issue here. What seems to be seriously lacking is respect for the fellow women ...
He seems pretty happy about the torture/rape of both sexes.
-
When my friend went to Iraq, he says they received frequent offers of money and/or goats in exchange for the blond female medic in their unit. He says they had a terrible time trying to get across the idea that Americans don't buy and sell women.
Friend of mine went on vacation to Egypt when she was 17. Her parents had plenty of people coming up and wishing to buy her!
-
My parents went on vacation in Egypt in 2006. My dad was made an offer for my mom. He thought the guy was kidding... :O
-
Did your Dad tell Pharoah she was his sister? =)
-
I don't think it would've mattered. From what my folks tell me, the guy was insistent, wife, sister, acquaintance, no big deal.
It gave Mom a big head, because it ain't every day somebody wants to add a 60-something spayed American female to their harem... (Or is it?)
-
How much was he offering for her?
-
How much was he offering for her?
I guess you asked G98, but I'll answer as well. IIRC, my friend's parents were offered 20 camels and an undisclosed amount of gold for her. I admit that I don't know the current price of women in the parts where this still seems to be a fairly common practice, so I can't tell if he made a good offer or not.
-
Would it be totally crazy to suppose that these were dowries, not slave trades? Or would that be a distinction without a difference?
-
Would it be totally crazy to suppose that these were dowries, not slave trades? Or would that be a distinction without a difference?
I a culture that permits four wives for the lowest of the low, and progressively larger numbers in the "entourage" of those higher on the economic/power (or is that power/economic?) scale I doubt there is much to distinguish between the two concepts.
stay safe.
skidmark
-
Four wives?
-
Four wives?
Aren't you allowed 4 in Saudi Arabia?
-
I think this might be a good way to get rid of some annoying women in my life and make money too!
-
Aren't you allowed 4 in Saudi Arabia?
I'm sure. But I'm surprised at the idea of a minimum amount being 4. I've met many Muslims, some of them Egyptian, and I've never heard of people with 4-wife families in these areas except among Beduins who have basically ignored the last century.
-
I seem to remember hearing some dirt about the rich Kuwaiti leader having 3 or so wives and regularly divorcing and marrying young women. That was around the first Gulf War time though.
-
Oh, rich people in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, of course, have lots of wives. That's not whaT I'm talking about though.
-
I'm sure. But I'm surprised at the idea of a minimum amount being 4.
I don't think anyone said that was the minimum. If I remember right, I've heard of there being some rule in Islam about four wives as a maximum.
-
Four (4) is the max number you can be married to. Explanation goes, per some vague recollection of "Sahara" starring Bogart, not those newbie upstarts:
One wife will forever nag and complain to you;
Two wives will forever nag and complain about the other to you;
Three wives, two will side together against the other - the alliances change by the moment;
But four wives. Ah! Two by two, each will have a friend, and you will have peace and time to sip coffee in the bazzar. And when you come home - <insert big ole sloppy grin>.
I'm not sure Paul Robeson ("Tambu") really was comfortable with those lines, being a rather devout Baptist, but he probably was happy to get a role that did not require foot-shuffling and a drawl while moving slower than molasses in January or having to tapdance.
As for the "entourage" - apparently if you can feed them you can keep them, but you cannot be married to more than 4 at any given moment. So some of those tribal alliances were made knowing full well that daughter #17 was going to be unmarried but living in the tent of Al-Whatshizname, Shiek of date tree # 329 at the oaisis out back of the BurgerKing. I actually had a perfesser in kollege ("Compasrative Civilizations 223") try to tell me that since there was nothing in the desert worth collecting and showing off, the "Ay-rabs" treated excess women like baubles in doing one-upsmanship to show off their wealth and control of water.
stay safe.
skidmark
-
I don't think anyone said that was the minimum. If I remember right, I've heard of there being some rule in Islam about four wives as a maximum.
Ah, I misread.
-
Regarding multi-wife polytheism as an accepted practice - while trying to be sensitive to the fact that there may be forum members who don't denigrate it - I will note that it worked out best in cultures with a dearth of men due to ongoing warfare.
-
I will note that it worked out best in cultures with a dearth of men due to ongoing warfare.
Did you get that explanation from Doctor Strangelove? :laugh:
-
Balog, I asked my mom and dad today when we went to the Baraboo River Rendezvous.
The offer was something on the order of 2 camels and several goats. It appears Dad insulted the Egyptian who was trying to barter for Mom when he countered with something along the lines of "I won't take anything less than 4 camels for her, look at her excellent teeth!" Dad was joking, evidently the Egyptian wasn't. :O
Talk about inadvertently starting an international incident...
-
Only 2 camels? Insultingly low... =D
-
I will refrain from making a tasteless joke about whether Gewehr's father is of a certain religious persuasion. :angel:
I got a deal on my wife, boys. She's definitely a four-camel girl, but I got her for 2 and a 1/2, 'cause she needed a little fixin' up.
-
Yeah, it appears that the guy was trying to lowball my dad on the price. Then again, the average age of the rest of the guy's harem was probably a lot lower. =D
Dad's Methodist, but still has a good sense of humor. The Egyptian, not so much...
-
She's definitely a four-camel girl, but I got her for 2 and a 1/2...
I'm afraid to ask what one does with half a camel...
-
Half a camel would be quite a desert barbecue, methinks.
-
And then fisty gave him the ole "half camel" if you know what I mean. /wink wink /nudge nudge
-
I'm afraid to ask what one does with half a camel...
I guess that would depend on whether it's the front half or the back half ...
-
Half a camel would be quite a desert barbecue, methinks.
You know how Indians used the entire body of a buffalo? A lot of Arabs do the same with the entire body of a camel.
-
I'm afraid to ask what one does with half a camel...
The Marlboro Man would know.