Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: makattak on October 22, 2009, 01:26:00 PM
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Yep... spanking is being utilized less and less and instead we get:
For Some Parents, Shouting Is the New Spanking (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/fashion/22yell.html)
Personally, a parent flipping out and screaming at a child is far worse than spanking a child.
Spanking can be done while in control of yourself. Screaming?... not so much.
Also, I note the continued demise of proper english in the article:
“This is so the issue right now. As parents understand that it’s not socially acceptable to spank children, they are at a loss for what they can do. They resort to reminding, nagging, timeout, counting 1-2-3 and quickly realize that those strategies don’t work to change behavior. In the absence of tools that really work, they feel frustrated and angry and raise their voice. They feel guilty afterward, and the whole cycle begins again.”
Sooo... you're being quoted by the New York Times and you begin your statement with: This is SOOOOO the issue right now.
/facepalm
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This is so the issue right now.
Lends new meaning to the word "trite."
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Huh. The article said spanking is a problem....No problem here. I smack my kid when she needs it. She rarely needs it. Parents who don't spank, in my experience, are a lot like the U.N. Largely useless.
There may be some here who don't believe in spanking. Great, they shouldn't , then. Everyone I have ever met who doesn't spank has had a holy terror of a child whom everyone despises. YMMV.
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Huh. The article said spanking is a problem....No problem here. I smack my kid when she needs it. She rarely needs it. Parents who don't spank, in my experience, are a lot like the U.N. Largely useless.
What's very funny to me is they have so many statements about spanking being bad and then, almost as an aside, note that studies have shown that spanking is bad for VERY young children. (And nothing about it being bad for any other children)
Huh... so, people shouldn't spank infants? Wow, that's some striking results (pun intended).
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Spanked kid speaking up here. Not everyone would say I turned out "ok" =D but I did turn out. =D
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Everyone I have ever met who doesn't spank has had a holy terror of a child whom everyone despises. YMMV.
LOLs
I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.
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LOLs
I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. CITATION NEEDED My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.
Funny how the news article didn't mention ALL those studies that say all spanking is bad...
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LOLs
I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.
Okay, no spanking then.
What do you do when the time-outs, the sticker chart behavior system etc. don't work? How about when you've got four kids about the same age acting that way? We see some minor success with all of those, but never to the point of 51% good behavior/listening. Plus I've got three others doing something else naughty in the meantime.
I think most of us will agree we see tons of mentioning that spanking/yelling-screaming is "bad", but no clear ideas of what to do instead...
Experts suggest figuring out ways to prevent situations that make you most prone to yell. If forgotten homework sends you into the stratosphere, make sure the children have their books and notebooks packed and waiting by the door before they go to bed. If you’re stressed and hungry after a long day at the office, make sure you grab something to eat in the kitchen before you tackle, say, a brewing disagreement over Legos.
Oh gee... That is so ever-helpful, actionable, and concrete. ;/
A good deep pinch-hold on the upper arm/humerus bone usualy works great for getting attention and very quick compliance, and it can be done quietly and not garner much attention in public. =)
Oh, as to how a preeschool teacher can keep 10-12 kids in line, and why parent can't cope with only one or a handful. It's my experience only kids with severe ED/LD issues will actually misbehave that badly for a "stranger" i.e. teacher etc. in a public setting. They only ever seem to do it for the parents. In a school setting (excluding the ghetto) there is the dynamic of a social pressure to conform in play that aids your average teacher in maintaining order.
At home, that's gone, and they're hell on wheels.
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Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students.
One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.
IOW, spanking may be the effect, not the cause of their behavior.
TC
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Funny how the news article didn't mention ALL those studies that say all spanking is bad...
Knew that was coming, so I started looking it up... wrote a paper on it in college. The overwhelming majority of studies done on spanking say it is BAD. There are a few that say it can prevent some behavior in some children from happening, but those studies don't take into account the lasting effects of spanking. I'm certainly not saying everyone who is spanked turns out worse than those who aren't, but there are plenty of potential long term effects on children who are spanked.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml)
http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html (http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html)
http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html (http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html)
Could post all day....
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Could post all day....
And again, NONE of them have any constructive ideas of what to do INSTEAD when your kid just won't listen...
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One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.
IOW, spanking may be the effect, not the cause of their behavior.
TC
True... and I know kids who are spanked who behave great, I also know kids who aren't spanked who behave bad. It's really hard to tell what causes what. I do know that spanking CAN cause damage to a child and that it hasn't been legitimately proven that spanking a child makes them out to be a better adult.
You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like. On top of that it can effect the entire way the brain develops, warping relationships, sexuality, etc.
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Knew that was coming, so I started looking it up... wrote a paper on it in college. The overwhelming majority of studies done on spanking say it is BAD. There are a few that say it can prevent some behavior in some children from happening, but those studies don't take into account the lasting effects of spanking. I'm certainly not saying everyone who is spanked turns out worse than those who aren't, but there are plenty of potential long term effects on children who are spanked.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml)
http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html (http://www.livescience.com/culture/090924-childhood-spanking.html)
http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html (http://www.naturalchild.org/research/canadian_spanking_study.html)
Could post all day....
And I suggest you try. Every single one of those articles about the studies indicates these studies are at best, inconclusive:
In a 2004 study, Johns Hopkins University researchers examined spanking practices and outcomes among different racial and ethnic groups within the U.S. While spanking was linked to later behavior problems in white children, this was not true of black or Hispanic children who were spanked.
She added that a question still left unanswered is "what are some of the other mechanisms that could be responsible for this link between physical discipline and lower IQ?"
But spanking is much more common in society than the data indicates, because kids are mostly frequently spanked between the ages of 3 and 4, and that is too early for most adults to remember, MacMillan said.
(Note, this means her results are FLAWED.)
I'm an economist. I recognize faulty statistical technique.
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You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like.
Well, sometimes it is okay. Namely when behavior is at odds with what is socially, morally, or ethically right, and other warnings have not taken effect.
Hell, the vast majority of the world even thinks it is okay to KILL someone behaving in ways we don't like when circumstances are extreme enough.
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Well, sometimes it is okay. Namely when behavior is at odds with what is socially, morally, or ethically right, and other warnings have not taken effect.
Hell, the vast majority of the world even thinks it is okay to KILL someone behaving in ways we don't like when circumstances are extreme enough.
I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner. They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".
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I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner. They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".
Uh huh... and? So long as you also teach him he doesn't get to hit people, where's the problem?
The 3 year old is unlikely to comprehend a great number of things. A parent's responsibility is to teach him to act correctly until he is ABLE to comprehend such things.
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There is a difference between spanking and beating.
Over the years the libtard weenies decided that any touching of a child except to stroke its ego was abusive. Kids picked up on that and often held their parents captive/hostage with threats to call Child Protective Services on the parents. Some CPS folks fell for that ruse and persecuted and prosecuted parents for using corporal punishment.
BTW - does anyone besides me know the origins of the term "corporal punishment" and the origin of the perversion of that term? Extra credit - can anyone describe the alternative to corporal punishment?
As many others here have stated previously, I raised my kid with very few spankings - perhaps three, maybe four. Then there was the time I wanted to beat her, but sent her to her room and told her to lock her door until I cooled off. She graduated high school without ever having a bruise inflicted on her by me in pique, upset, anger or rage. Now, we will not discuss either "space baby" or the swing set, OK?
stay safe.
skidmark
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As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them. I don't think we are going to agree. It's as simple as this... Spanking can potentially cause many problems down the line and I've never been convinced that a child who is spanked is more likely to become a well adjusted adult. I've met plenty of people who were spanked and turned out horrible. I've met many who were spanked and turnEd out fine too; but I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.
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As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them.
And I've already stated that the social construct of a classroom is markedly different than the home, where the child is much more comfortable to misbehave. My kids behavior in class is generaly exemplary, and at worst is generaly just passively not following with the group, not outright disruption. If I could get that at home, I'd think it was heaven.
I'll lay a weeks pay you don't have any kids, save maybey an infant, because you don't understand that dichotomy. I think most parents with toddlers and older know their childen have two sets of behavior, home, and public. And if anything it's even more infuriating because with the better public behavior, you KNOW they're capable of better...
I can't prove it's the case, but I think everyone here can see how "spanking studies" may also have a trend similar to the (man made) global warming bandwagon. First off, any non in-situ study is basically based on self-reporting, which is extremely difficult to appy any scientificaly rigorous criteria to. Much less screening out any reverse correlations such as the potential for naughtier children to get more spankings than well behaved ones.
And it's pretty ballsy to publish a study into academia that says "spanking is okay" as well.
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I agree that children will behave worse at home. And no, I don't have any kids, but I don't think that will change my mind, my parents managed to not hit me or my sister, I'm sure I can do the same. Even reasonable spanking can effect development. My wife was spanked less than ten times and it has permenantly effected her. It wasn't abuse either, it was completely" reasonable" spanking.
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but I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.
really? how many kids you have? have you raised?
i can think of a particularly good example of "no spanking" my sisters neighbors were both child rearing "professionals " one was a school administrator and former teacher the other a child shrink. i watched them raise their lil angel the "right way" . chasing the lil heathen around the yard trying to beg good behavior from him. some of you might hav heard of the lil angel he murdered the 8 year old neighbor girl and stuffed her corpse under the water bed. and mommy and daddy defended him to the end. daddy the shrink was extra special. it was the ll girls fault she shouldn't have come over
http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/07/florida.child.murder.02/
i work with kids in the juvi drug court program and my experience is very different from jacks.
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People with their mind made up can always find "data" to support their positions.
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While I think I was whipped too much as a kid, I'm glad I was, I could have turned out a lot worse. The problem was perception, my dad had no idea how scary he was to a child. I was about 7 and we had a problem with me lying. He told me to get a shovel, his plan to have me move a bunch of sand and rock from where it was to where he wanted it(1/4 mile) by bucketful. this not explained to me at the get a shovel phase, I figured he was going to have me dig my own grave. Srsly. So, I try not to be scary to my 2 year old, but I want it to be clear I'm going to win.
I don't want to spank, but I do smack the hand that reaches, and if she gets really out of control I explain it to her firmly. The get down on her level,upper arm hold, and punctuating my words with a forefinger tap on her forehead seems to work. She doesn't go away happy but she does cease and desist.
Training a puppy now too, in some respects much easier, if he tests me I just put him on his back by the throat, growl in his ear and if need be nip his ear. Dominance asserted. Future 80-90lb dog, don't need to get him thinking he is boss at 10 weeks.
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The 3 year old is unlikely to comprehend a great number of things. A parent's responsibility is to teach him to act correctly until he is ABLE to comprehend such things.
This^^^.
Make them act civilized until they are civilized.
And I've already stated that the social construct of a classroom is markedly different than the home, where the child is much more comfortable to misbehave. My kids behavior in class is generaly exemplary, and at worst is generaly just passively not following with the group, not outright disruption. If I could get that at home, I'd think it was heaven.
Our kids' teachers LOVE our kids. They behave very well at school and are, generally, good kids. But, they will do stuff at home or in public (outside of school) that they would never dream of doing at school.
Different social environments elicit different behaviors. Not a difficult concept, really.
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Throw me into the spanking camp...
No. Wait. that sounds really wrong....
Umm... Let's start over, shall we?
I'm firmly of the belief that each child is different, and that there is no one size fits all rule (spanking good vs. spanking bad) that can ever adequately deal with this concept we call child rearing.
I'll use myself as an example. I was spanked as a child. Both in a loving manner, and in an abusive manner. Yes, I was old enough to know the difference. My parents were very loving in their discipline. I *knew* that they hated having to spank me. But they also knew that I was entirely too "strong-willed" (i.e. stubborn) to listen to them most of the time. And my brother? He was the poster boy for the stubborn kid. Boy, do I have stories. And yeah, he got spankings more frequently than I did. But he also knew that Mom and Dad loved him. Now my grandfather used spankings as a means of physical abuse. Little clues like, "you're gonna keep getting spanked until you quit crying!" As a (for the most part) well-adjusted adult, let me tell you what the results were: I love my parents, very dearly. They Raised Me Right. My grandfather, on the very rare occasions that I see him, I'm as likely to punch his lights out as shake his hands. I don't go out and kill innocent animals, or innocent children. I know my parents didn't abuse me by spanking me. I *DO* know my grandfather abused me by spanking me.
Now, for a counter-example, my wife. She was never spanked as a child. Yet she also turned out to be a very well adjusted adult (other than marrying me, that is, but that's also a whole different thread). Her parents learned very early on that she was one of those very sensitive kids, that a stern word was all the correction she ever needed. Even as a 3 or 4 year old, all she needed was a stern word. She never got into any trouble as a young woman, and is today a very good person. Her parents also Raised Her Right.
So, here's where I step off the soapbox. There's no one-size-fits-all rule. Spanking can be a very effective tool in child rearing, one that should *NOT* be excluded from a parent's toolbox. But it all depends on the child. Some kids will need a spanking. Others, won't. It's part of a parents job to figure out what kind of discipline an individual child needs.
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watched them raise their lil angel the "right way" . chasing the lil heathen around the yard trying to beg good behavior from him. some of you might hav heard of the lil angel he murdered the 8 year old neighbor girl and stuffed her corpse under the water bed. and mommy and daddy defended him to the end. daddy the shrink was extra special. it was the ll girls fault she shouldn't have come over
That is a freak occurence. Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea. Guarantee you it is more than the average population.
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I'll guarantee that those in prison who were spanked were also abused either through excessive/unreasonable spanking, or likely through other means such as good old fashioned beatings. Not a good sample population to make a general statement that spanking = maladjusted adult.
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Correlation does not equal causation.
It could also be that criminaly preidposed children act out and engender more corporal punishment from their parents.
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One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.
I have one of each.
I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner. They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".
Believe me, 3 year olds are much smarter than you think they are. The 7 year old in my house is fairly responsible, honest, and well behaved most of the time. The 3 year old is very good at lying, hiding her actions, and manipulating adults. She not only knows that she is doing something wrong when she's doing it, but she is smart enough to try to cover it up or disguise it as some other activity.
Trying to discipline both in the same manner is punding square pegs into round holes. You need to do what works for each individual. My 7 year old son can be easily leveraged with the threat of taking away the Wii or TV for a day or a week, likewise its also the carrot if he does his chores. The 3 year old pushes her boundaries much harder and needs more correction at times, especially if she does something potentially dangerous.
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What Ambulance said.
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That is a freak occurence. Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea. Guarantee you it is more than the average population.
Just about all kids were spanked up until about 20 or so years ago when the new age child psychology became popular. I high percentage of 30 year olds in prison were spanked, but doubtfully any different than the percentage that are not in prison.
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You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like.
So you'll teach your kids that it's OK to put someone in time out, when they behave in a way you don't like?
I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.
I find it hard to believe that you know anything about the type of discipline used by the parents of most people you meet.
As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them.
Of course she doesn't lay a finger on them. She's not allowed to. My wife is also a pre-school teacher. She knows the methods. But she's not opposed to spanking, in principle.
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That is a freak occurence. Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea. Guarantee you it is more than the average population.
do share with us/me your experience's in the house of many doors. your guarantee has questionable value.particularly to me.
there are 13 kids in my drug court group 12 of them unspanked
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What Ambulance said.
This.
Just about all kids were spanked up until about 20 or so years ago when the new age child psychology became popular. I high percentage of 30 year olds in prison were spanked, but doubtfully any different than the percentage that are not in prison.
Also this.
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I've never heard of a child pyschiatrist reccomending spanking. C&S I have a hard time believing that twelve of thirteen kids in a drug program have no physical abuse in their past. In fact I'm certain they do have some sort of history... Or in the very least parents who are addicts. (or they are kids who got busted with a joint once and aren't really addicts)
There are waaaay more factors in these things than whether or not a kid was spanked. My parents somehow managed to raise two normal well adjusted kids without hitting us. My wife was spanked in a reasonable manner and it has effected her in a negative way. (I don't want to get too personal)
I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog, much less my child. ( and yes, my dog behaves great!). I know it can be traumatic for the child and permenantly effect the way they think.
It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.
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It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.
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you mean thats what you imagine right? as opposed to being able to support with facts?
Youth Violence on Rise in Germany
The pint-sized but burly 12-year-old made clear what he had in mind when he dragged a 13-year-old female classmate to a remote corner of the schoolyard after school let out -- "If you don't play along, I'll make you dead," he told the terrified girl. After beating her nearly unconscious, he raped her.
The incident, uncovered recently by horrified teachers at a small-town school near Munich, would have triggered banner headlines across Germany a decade ago. Instead, it was either ignored or buried on inside pages -- just another routine statistic reflecting the drastic rise in violence among German youth.
"While violence at our schools and among our youth generally is constantly becoming more brutal, for some reason it's a taboo subject," editorialized Munich's mass circulation daily TZ. "But keeping quiet about it will not stop the spiral of violence."
According to government data, youths between the ages of 14 and 18 accounted for a record 13 percent of the total felonies committed in Germany in 1998. Children under 14 committed an unprecedented 6.6 percent of all serious offenses during the same period, and preliminary findings indicate a similar trend for 1999 and last year. While most of the offenses committed by youths are in the category of shoplifting, theft or burglaries, more and more youngsters also are being charged with blackmail and robbery as well as grievous assault causing bodily harm.
Even more unnerving, murder and criminal manslaughter increasingly appear on the list of juvenile crimes:
* The principal of a boarding school at Bad Aibling, southeast of Munich, was shot dead last year by a 16-year-old pupil angry because he was expelled from school for bad behavior.
* Five passers-by were killed and several seriously injured when a 16-year- old boy shot at them with an automatic rifle from his home at Bad Reichenhall, a south German health spa. Before police could overpower him, the youth committed suicide.
* A teacher was stabbed to death in a Meisson (eastern Germany) classroom by a 15-year-old in front of 24 classmates.
longer article here
http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010321.htmlpanking heck yelling at your kids is verbotten its working great!
the kids in drug court weren't spanked some were abused but they weren't spanked often mommy was a new age single mom trying to compensate. sorry my reality isn't supportive of your theory
my 8 year old has been whacked 3 times she is still outraged over it. but if you ask her when was last time she can't really tell you it was 5 years ago or more. you hopefully shouldn't have to hit em often but them knowing you will if they push their luck is a great stick when balanced with praise for doing well and fostering an attitude where they enjoy making mommy and daddy happy by being good. i can say 3 words in a non loud voice but a serious tone of voice and my critters toe the line . i on the other hand was a hellion got tagged regular and didn't give a hoot.
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In fact I'm certain they do have some sort of history... Or in the very least parents who are addicts. (or they are kids who got busted with a joint once and aren't really addicts)
You're "certain" about details you couldn't possibly know? You're certain that the kids were either spanked, abused, had parents who were addicts or are not really addicts, or one of the above? My head hurts from trying to follow all of these things you're so certain about.
There are waaaay more factors in these things than whether or not a kid was spanked.
But you have been talking as if spanking ruins kids, and crediting a lack of spanking for people's good behavior. ??? Which is it?
My parents somehow managed to raise two normal well adjusted kids without hitting us.
That's good, but we were talking about spanking, not hitting.
I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog
Huh? Why?
I know it can be traumatic for the child and permenantly effect the way they think.
Do you?
It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.
But you said there were waaaaaay more factors. ???
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It could also be that criminaly preidposed children act out and engender more corporal punishment from their parents.
Well if they are criminals the spanking obviously didn't have the intended preventive effect.
you mean thats what you imagine right? as opposed to being able to support with facts?
Black parents are more likely to use physical punishment. (a whoopin, if you will) Black adults are more likely to commit violent crimes. Not saying that is a cause and effect, but it seems as though any subculture that supports physical punishment also tends to have more violent adults. Meanwhile there are many countries in western Europe that ban or frown upon corporal punishment and their violent crime rates are significantly lower than the U.S. Once again, not necessarily a cause and effect, but you seem to be implying that without physical punishment our society would go to hell in a hand basket, when that is obviously not the case.
often mommy was a new age single mom trying to compensate.
Unstable home.... shhhocking. I'm sure new age single moms don't have any drug addled boyfriends around to influence the child. I'm sure if new age mom just spanked the child they would straighten up right quicklike, regardless of their bad home life.
You're "certain" about details you couldn't possibly know? You're certain that the kids were either spanked, abused, had parents who were addicts or are not really addicts, or one of the above? My head hurts from trying to follow all of these things you're so certain about.
C&S stated himself that many were abused. (I'm either psychic or I kind of know what I'm talking about) And not every person that was molested or hit is going to tell you about it. People who are addicts follow a common line. They are sexually or physically abused, or had a parent who used drugs. Obviously this isn't 100% of the time, but frankly I've never met an addict who didn't fall into one of these two categories. Notice I said addict. A 17 year old getting busted with a one hitter and a baggie of weed isn't necessarily an addict and every one of us did things of varying stupidity in our younger days.
That's good, but we were talking about spanking, not hitting.
Spanking is hitting.. same thing. OK, it's open-hand hitting.
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I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog
Huh? Why?
Well for one, she has no butt to spank. Secondly, for some reason I feel bad about hitting something that is defenseless. Furthermore my dog behaves just fine without punishing her in any pain-causing way. Snap my fingers or say "NO" and she stops what she is doing. I tap her (like the dog whisperer) on occasion, but that is the limit of my physical punishment. I don't slap my wife no matter how crazy she's acting. At what age do you stop spanking? What if your child has a mental handicap and the intellect of a 3 year old? Could you then hit spank a 19 year old?
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I know it can be traumatic for the child and permanently effect the way they think.
Do you?
I had a girlfriend who's dad spanked her a couple times (when she was under 10 years old). When he would do it she would try to stop him so he'd hold her hands down with one hand and spank her with the other. This manifested itself later in her life in a sexual manner. Things that are traumatic as a child can be arousing as an adult. She didn't realize the correlation until I pointed it out. She was literally re-enacting the exact same thing down to very minor details.... seriously... efffed... up. And she wasn't "abused" and her dad wasn't a bad guy, but she did tell me that when he did it she was terrified. Women will act out sexually, men will act out violently when abused. Being caused pain by someone who you are terrified of is traumatic. And by it's nature spanking is meant to cause physical pain and fear.
I know we aren't going to come to an agreement on this, I really understand where you are coming from, but I really just don't agree. I've never seen any data that shows spanking a child is more likely to result in a well-behaved adult. I have seen things stating the opposite. I talked to many people at both my jobs today about this. One girl stated "I know spanking "kidsname" doesn't prevent him from doing something bad in the future, but it really can relieve some stress". Unfortunately for every person that uses physical punishment "appropriately" it seems there are many more who use it as a way to vent anger. I've never seen a kid spanked calmly in public, it's always in an irresponsible and immature manner. I don't think that using physical punishment in a responsible manner on very rare occasions is going to result in damage to the child. I do believe that it is a possibility though, I would not risk that with my own children. As I stated, my parents never spanked me. They did spank my sister for a few years before I was born, she had significantly more behavior problems as a child than I did. I don't think the spanking caused it, but I don't think it would have stopped it either.
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I was spanked sporadically after the age of five.
I was hit once. And that one time, I actually deserved it. I won't go into details, nor do I hold it against the hitter, for they apologized profusely the next day and I got free ice cream. =)
There is a difference. When I unknowingly broke the rules, my parents had the good graces of explaining to my why it was wrong. If I did it again, despite the intelligent discourse beforehand, that's when the spanking was given. Things like using a riding lawnmower as a go-kart, no explanation was needed and it was an immediate "go fetch the wooden spoon." Racial epithets got the discussion, and never needed a spanking afterwards (I was ridiculed a LOT as a kid for my size, and was able to draw a correlation pretty well).
As a result, I was able to see how and why every spanking I got was justified.
Spanking is wrong only when it is done without the kid knowing why. If I have kid(s), I plan on using exactly the same technique my parents used with me, as it seemed to work pretty well.
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What do you do when the time-outs, the sticker chart behavior system etc. don't work?
http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERXREP.aspx
How about when you've got four kids about the same age acting that way?
http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Chemical_Munitions/Chemical_Munitions/32CSRBG
Spankings don't sound so bad anymore, do they? After all, if you're not going to discipline them effectively, you might as well get them ready for what they'll be getting later in life.
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Unfortunately for every person that uses physical punishment "appropriately" it seems there are many more who use it as a way to vent anger.
Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.
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Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.
So did I. It's amazing how much a person's whole life can change without the parents' knowledge when the parents have done their best to make sure the kid is afraid to tell the parents anything that might make them angry.
Further, according to a family law judge of my acquaintance, most girls seeking judicial override of the need for their parents consent to an abortion are seeking it simply because tehy are afraid of their parents' anger.
No, I don't want my kids to be afraid to make me angry. Best way I can think of to guarantee I am denied essential information down the road.
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Spanking your kid as a means of stress relief is abusive. If hurting your child makes you feel good you need serious help.
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Spanking your kid as a means of stress relief is abusive. If hurting your child makes you feel good you need serious help.
Binog. I'd say the same about yelling at them. Sooo, if not spanking your kid causes you to yell at them, because well, SOMETHING must be done, where does that leave us?
So, here's the question. Sometimes children do things which warrant immediate correction. Running into traffic, touching the stove, etc. You can't always hover right there over your child. There needs to be some way to stop the behavior before they are seriously injured. Say I catch my 2-3 year old about to touch a stove. Should I give him a time out? Do you think that will work?
I'm not willing to gamble skin grafts, so I spank. My kid gets time outs, and lectures, and things taken away, as well. The right tool for the job. So far, she's five and a half, and speaks more intelligently than most adults I've known. Who knows, maybe she'll grow up with a predilection for being spanked. Worse things exist, I'll say that.
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Spankings don't sound so bad anymore, do they? After all, if you're not going to discipline them effectively, you might as well get them ready for what they'll be getting later in life.
Yes, because spanking is the only effective discipline. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg)
That's why all the countries who have banned it have such crazy citizens... I mean think of all the trouble Sweedish and Icelandic children are getting into because their parents aren't allowed to spank them. Those are countries full of maniacs! And their crime rates? OUT OF CONTROL!!! And don't get me started on New Zealand, barbarians, they are!! /sarcasm
I am stating that you can quite effectively discipline without resorting to physical punishment, not OMG everyone who was spanked once is now a crazy man!!
Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.
Venting anger by slapping your kids? Great Idea. Don't forget you teach through actions, not words.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm)
Also I'd like to ask what you do when spanking doesn't work? My father was spanked as a child. Around the age of 8 my grandmother started to spank him for some minor thing... he started laughing... she started hitting him with a wood spoon... he laughed harder... alright wait until your dad gets home... dad gets home and spanks him... he laughs... dad gets angry and spanks harder... he laughs harder... dad gets very angry, grabs him by the neck and slams him into the hardwood floor, knocking the wind out of him and making him "see stars"... apparently he still had a grin on his face... followed through with a punch to the eye. Do you guys see a problem with that? Furthermore it did nothing to make my father behave, he was a trouble maker into his teens. He still resents his father for that incident. So what is your "escalation of force" with spanking? What do you do when it quits working?
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The point of it is, you start early, apply consistently, and the child learns you are the authority figure in the household. Over time, the child learns appropriate behavior, and spankings become less and less needed as a form of discipline. As someone else said, you teach them to act civilized until they are civilized. A 2 year old doesn't learn through theory. An 8 year old can. And in the case above, an 8 year old clearly learned to manipulate the people who obviously didn't use appropriate methods. Spanking an 8 year old is unlikely to work very well, particularly if it's a grandmother doing the spanking. By the time the father got home, the plan was to laugh regardless of what happened.
My daughter rarely gets spanked now. She's learned appropriate behavior, and not to touch dangerous items, so she gets time outs and lectures. Sometimes, I have to count backwards from five.
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LOLs
I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems. In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively. My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her. Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students. Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.
I've seen similar results due to parents who don't know when to spank or spank to let off some steam (taking their problems out on their kids). Spanking when it's appropriate works and very well at that. How many of the "spanking=bad" studies were actually done by people who didn't have an agenda? In my early school years (k-3) I went to school when spanking was allowed. Kids behaved. The ones that didn't got spanked and then behaved. Then spanking was banned by all but the principal and then only with written parental permission. Oddly enough the kids that didn't behave also weren't allowed to be spanked per the parent(s). The kids that got spanked before now got sent to the counselor's office. No change in behavior. They were usually sent home right after being sent back to class as the rest of us couldn't learn due to the disruptions.
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Heck, the active issue I saw in my kids Maryland school, was 3rd graders that were beaten by their older siblings.
These kids brought a real lord of the flies vibe to the classroom
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Oh sweet holy hell, enough.