Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: vaskidmark on October 29, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
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http://www.spinner.com/2009/10/29/folk-singer-taylor-mitchell-killed-by-coyotes/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spinner.com%2F2009%2F10%2F29%2Ffolk-singer-taylor-mitchell-killed-by-coyotes%2F
First rule violation - don't go hiking alone.
But the part that sticks in my craw is "Nearby walkers heard her screams and alerted park rangers".
A-freaking-lerted park rangers! They heard screams and a-freaking-lerted park rangers. Nothing to indicate that one of them ran towards the scene to see why someone was screaming, to see if there was some way they could intervene in the situation, to see if they could help! Not one!!
I have been to Cape Breton Highlands Park. It's maybe 15 miles East to West and 5 miles North to South. The place does not have "walking paths" with pay phones every 1/4-mile or so. There are some "roads" through the park, but they do not form anything like an effective network or grid for getting quickly across from point A to point B so much as they circle the park boundaries. While I never tried to use a cell phone there, I imagine there are not a network of towers that make cell use easy, let alone possible. All this to explain why the rant over "Nearby walkers heard her screams and alerted park rangers".
How many bites does it take from a pair of coyotes to lose enough blood to die, even after they find you, get a helicopter to you, and medivac you to the hospital where you can get blood replenishment?
Nothing indicates the coyotes were rabid. Taylor Mitchell could well have been, as is stated in other news stories (go search for them), mistaken for a deer or other prey animal. Two hungry coyotes vs. one small almost-adult is possible. Two hungry coyotes who have taken down one small almost-adult confronted by two or more "nearby walkers" who ran to the scene, saw what was happening, and started yelling and waving their arms - I don't think the coyotes would have stuck around to defend their meal.
Bloody Canadians must have decided to copy more than just tea-drinking and National Health Service from formerlyGreat Britain.
I'm going to get something to lower my blood pressure.
stay safe.
skidmark
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They've taken all the fight out of them.
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I will not defend those who just ran away. However, I will note for you the concurrent thread about the rape in California where numerous people just looked on.
This is not confined to Canadians, I believe it is far more widespread.
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In today's "bad ways to die category" we have a strong contender...
That being said, these may have been rabid or otherwise sick if they were as aggressive as indicated.
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Sad. =( She was really pretty, too.
Up until this day, I never really considered coyotes to be a threat to adult humans.
I guess this is just another good reason to carry a sidearm all the time.
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I guess this is just another good reason to carry a sidearm all the time.
If you need a reason, that's a good one.
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not intended as any disrespect to the poor young woman but with canines attitude really counts. too many folks get lost in a disney "look its so cute" fantasy. my kids learned that they neeed to ne alpha to the mutts as soon as i could make it happen and size and aggresssion can back off many wild canines. this girl was lacking in size. i might have to get a new younger dog here right away my older mutts are getting where their taking on a couple yotes might be problematic. anybody got an experience with dogs that are suitable around small kids and still yote destroyers? my husky lab was but shes getting old. (no overchurkas please i'm not sure i'm man enough)
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You've really gotta wonder how this played out. Even if they were unusually aggressive most adults should be able to fight off coyotes. Maybe she thought it was a "play dead" situation like a bear? Maybe co-ordinated tactics on the coyotes part?
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Details aside, I can't imagine a much shittier way to die. Hard to believe an adult human couldn't take a couple of scrawny dogs.
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one of the stories made some mention of yotes breeding with wolves making em bigger. was my understanding that wolves kill em that they don't coexist well if at all. i've never heard of wolf yote mixes seen some coy dogs though
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anybody got an experience with dogs that are suitable around small kids and still yote destroyers? my husky lab was but shes getting old. (no overchurkas please i'm not sure i'm man enough)
Doberman
Max, our 7 month old Doberman*, has turned out to be wonderful with the kids. He is around 60lbs, likely headed to the neighborhood of 85lbs.
When I write "wonderful," I mean stuff like getting into the sandbox and sitting next to my boy as he plays in the sandbox. He will also crawl into the trampoline with my daughter and enjoys the jumping & tumbling she does. He adores both my son and daughter. My 5YO son can go up to him, open his jaws, and drop a heartworm pill down his throat. My 3YO daughter is not quite able to manipulate his jaws like that, yet. They can also use him as a pillow and play around with his ears & dewlaps, looking at his teeth. He loves that sort of attention.
They are called "velcro" dogs because they like to be near their humans so much.
He has shown some prey drive, too, so varmints would likely get a chomping though I have yet to see him nab anything like a bird or squirrel.
Most references say that they need no training to protect their family members, though I haven't seen him get defensive around anyone yet. Then again, noody has threatened the kiddos in his presence, yet.
Max is the easiest dog I have ever trained. He is all about pleasing his humans.
I need to get some new pics of him, as he is getting quite handsome, even though he has not completely filled out yet.
German Shorthaired Pointer
You might have seen what I wrote about Misty, our 45lb female GSP, and her protectiveness towards our daughter. I think she has proven her bona fides.
Ten, our late 65lb male GSP was a stone killer of varmints. He had at least a half-dozen feral cats under his belt that we knew of and could nab a bird on the wing. Squirrels used to outrunning other dogs were in peril if Ten was around. He also was of a musculature & size that young college gals thought he was beautiful, but young urban toughs and derelicts with any sense kept a distance.
Ten was not as human-oriented as Max or Misty, but he was still the sort of dog who liked his family and had to spend time with us to be happy.
GSPs were bred as utility dogs, able to point, retrieve, and control varmints around the farmstead.
Coyotes
Online references say adult coyotes usually get from between 15-45lbs, with the larger specimens found in the north. In Texas, most folks say around 25lbs.
I'd think a 45lb coyote would be a serious dang predator, especially if he was hunting with buddies, as they are wont to do in these parts. 70+lbs of coyote could be a serious threat to a human.
I'd assume more than one coyote as a threat. Matter of fact, doesn't the OP say it was two coyotes?
I think I'd want a med-large or bigger dog. Misty, at 45lbs, would be a little small for two coyotes, though she'd be a fine "CIWS" to complement a larger dog.
A few miles ot the north of Richardson, in Plano, I regularly saw coyotes inside the apartment complex fence. Some folks would let their cats out, so coyotes found easy pickings.
* He's got some German/Euro dobe blood in him, about 1/2. That'll make him a bit more stout than all-American dobes.
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Oh, read this on wikipedia:
Due to an absence of harassment by residents, urban coyotes lose their natural fear of humans, which is further worsened by people intentionally feeding coyotes. In such situations, some coyotes have begun to act aggressively toward humans, chasing joggers and bicyclists, confronting people walking their dogs, and stalking small children.[40] Like wolves, non-rabid coyotes usually target small children, mostly under the age of 10, though some adults have been bitten.
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the best dog i ever had was a black lab dobe mix looked like a solid black dobie just a lil more filled out than the usual destroyer cut dobie. had the velvet fur. her one flaw was she hated cops and was hostile when they approached till i told her no. i hitch hiked thousands of miles with her in the 70's was better than an armed bodyguard. i've slept out inn places i wouldn't drive through in daylight today. i'd likely be dead were it not for a couple of my dogs. they had better sense than i did
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I've been thinking about this. She most likely had a mummy bag, right? If the coyotes started the fight by biting her face in a way that blinded her, or her throat and got a big artery...
Coydogs are worse than coyotes, and ferals are worst of all. Bigger, no fear of humans, and lack of hunting skills leading to great hunger. Bad news, feral dogs.
As for kid safe breeds, the oft maligned pit bulls are an excellent choice. Insanely loyal, very high pain tolerance, and repeatedly demonstrated to be the best of the canidae in a fight.
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I've been thinking about this. She most likely had a mummy bag, right? If the coyotes started the fight by biting her face in a way that blinded her, or her throat and got a big artery...
Coydogs are worse than coyotes, and ferals are worst of all. Bigger, no fear of humans, and lack of hunting skills leading to great hunger. Bad news, feral dogs.
As for kid safe breeds, the oft maligned pit bulls are an excellent choice. Insanely loyal, very high pain tolerance, and repeatedly demonstrated to be the best of the canidae in a fight.
i have a male neutered about 8 months offered me now still a lil wild but i am tempted. might want a farm dog that knows not to eat chickens and goats
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Pits are a lot like labs and cocker spaniels in that many of them are churned out by careless imbeciles who do not select for temperament. Back when dog fighting was a legitimate sport like horse racing, breeders were professionals who wouldn't stand for human aggression. These days dog fighters are most often just punk gang bangers who think hurting their dog to make it mean is the way to go. Find someone breeding them for work* and you'll be fine.
*Most common work pits are used for (aside from therapy dogs and SAR stuff that wouldn't really help you) is as catch dogs for hog hunting. Failing that, any of the old "game" lines that have been preserved would be excellent.
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Doberman
Another vote for Dobes. The two we have been owned have been great. If well bred they are highly sociable around people, good with kids once they have matured and not so bitey-nibbly, and have a very strong prey instinct. When we lived in a house with a smallish back yard surrounded by trees, one of our Dobes was fond of charging foraging doves and snagging them in mid-air.
As far as defense, our dobes didn't like black people...make of that what you will...but other than that they would only get keyed up when we did. If there was someone in my house I would rather have a Doberman than a loaded gun.
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Doberman
Max, our 7 month old Doberman*, has turned out to be wonderful with the kids. He is around 60lbs, likely headed to the neighborhood of 85lbs.
When I write "wonderful," I mean stuff like getting into the sandbox and sitting next to my boy as he plays in the sandbox. He will also crawl into the trampoline with my daughter and enjoys the jumping & tumbling she does. He adores both my son and daughter. My 5YO son can go up to him, open his jaws, and drop a heartworm pill down his throat. My 3YO daughter is not quite able to manipulate his jaws like that, yet. They can also use him as a pillow and play around with his ears & dewlaps, looking at his teeth. He loves that sort of attention.
They are called "velcro" dogs because they like to be near their humans so much.
He has shown some prey drive, too, so varmints would likely get a chomping though I have yet to see him nab anything like a bird or squirrel.
Most references say that they need no training to protect their family members, though I haven't seen him get defensive around anyone yet. Then again, noody has threatened the kiddos in his presence, yet.
Max is the easiest dog I have ever trained. He is all about pleasing his humans.
I need to get some new pics of him, as he is getting quite handsome, even though he has not completely filled out yet.
German Shorthaired Pointer
You might have seen what I wrote about Misty, our 45lb female GSP, and her protectiveness towards our daughter. I think she has proven her bona fides.
Ten, our late 65lb male GSP was a stone killer of varmints. He had at least a half-dozen feral cats under his belt that we knew of and could nab a bird on the wing. Squirrels used to outrunning other dogs were in peril if Ten was around. He also was of a musculature & size that young college gals thought he was beautiful, but young urban toughs and derelicts with any sense kept a distance.
Ten was not as human-oriented as Max or Misty, but he was still the sort of dog who liked his family and had to spend time with us to be happy.
GSPs were bred as utility dogs, able to point, retrieve, and control varmints around the farmstead.
Coyotes
Online references say adult coyotes usually get from between 15-45lbs, with the larger specimens found in the north. In Texas, most folks say around 25lbs.
I'd think a 45lb coyote would be a serious dang predator, especially if he was hunting with buddies, as they are wont to do in these parts. 70+lbs of coyote could be a serious threat to a human.
I'd assume more than one coyote as a threat. Matter of fact, doesn't the OP say it was two coyotes?
I think I'd want a med-large or bigger dog. Misty, at 45lbs, would be a little small for two coyotes, though she'd be a fine "CIWS" to complement a larger dog.
A few miles ot the north of Richardson, in Plano, I regularly saw coyotes inside the apartment complex fence. Some folks would let their cats out, so coyotes found easy pickings.
* He's got some German/Euro dobe blood in him, about 1/2. That'll make him a bit more stout than all-American dobes.
The Rottweilers I've had experience with made great family dogs and the breed is stout enough to handle several coyotes at once. Great Pyrenees are also plenty stout, but I might worry about the legal liability of a G.P. because they are hyperprotective of the children they bond with to the point that you might have to worry about your mailman/water meter reader getting bit.
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i have looked at pyrennes we have animals and a herd/guardian dog is good my lab husky is a chicken killer.i need another horse or pony then the small critters will be safe never lot a hen till the pony died. the pony taught the dogs to respect her well
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i have looked at pyrennes we have animals and a herd/guardian dog is good my lab husky is a chicken killer.i need another horse or pony then the small critters will be safe never lot a hen till the pony died. the pony taught the dogs to respect her well
Maybe a male donkey? My wife says that when she was growing up outside of Ft Worth, a lot of farmers would keep on with other less-able livestock like goats & sheep as coyote protection.
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I've heard good things about mountain curs and families. Apparently they will fight to the death to protect their family but are docile and will put up with anything if you're considered "family". They supposedly do well with kids.
My uncle has raised curs and and off and they've always seemed to be happy, goofy dogs. I never saw one in a situation that would require it to become aggressive, so I can't speak to that. They were high energy and muscular though.
Chris
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Maybe a male donkey? My wife says that when she was growing up outside of Ft Worth, a lot of farmers would keep on with other less-able livestock like goats & sheep as coyote protection.
I believe the correct answer here is a llama. Lots of ranchers around here stick a llama in with their herds to run off the riff-raff (coyotes, wolves, hunters, etc). Those buggers can be mean.
Edit: I say hunters because one took exception to me crossing a pasture to get to a duck pond once (I had permission). It was a bit exciting!
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Maybe a male donkey? My wife says that when she was growing up outside of Ft Worth, a lot of farmers would keep on with other less-able livestock like goats & sheep as coyote protection.
A lot of my neighbors keep goats and a donkey with them to chase off coyotes. Apparently donkeys are easily pissed off by predatory canines, and eager to act on that feeling.
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I've heard good things about mountain curs and families. Apparently they will fight to the death to protect their family but are docile and will put up with anything if you're considered "family". They supposedly do well with kids.
My uncle has raised curs and and off and they've always seemed to be happy, goofy dogs. I never saw one in a situation that would require it to become aggressive, so I can't speak to that. They were high energy and muscular though.
Chris
We had a mountain cur (try "black mouthed cur" if "mountain cur" doesn't work for your google) for about six months. Very protective toward my (ex) wife and daughter. Scared a few UPS men into being afraid to get out of their truck. Wouldn't back down from our "alpha" Rottweiler/Shepherd mix despite a 1/3 size differential and always coming out on the losing end. Sadly, his car chasing habits ended his life prematurely. I believe "Ol' Yeller", while depicted as a yellow lab in the disney movie, was actually intended to be a mountain cur by the author.
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I believe "Ol' Yeller", while depicted as a yellow lab in the disney movie, was actually intended to be a mountain cur by the author.
I have heard the same.
Based on what I've read and what I've seen via my Uncle's curs, I'd love to have one, but not while living in a suburban townhouse.
Chris
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thanks you've given me good suggestions now i'm gonna see what god delivers into my life from amongst those suggestions. i usually get a pound dog a stray or sometimes a dog when a senior passes. it seems like god gives me what i need. gonna to a horse rescue sunday morning ostensibly just to deliver a fuel tank. but wife is coming to chaperone me
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Harlow is very dog-aggressive due to some very bad experiences during her time as a stray. (You can see one "combat scar" under Amelia's elbow in those wrinkles on her side from when we'd adopted her last year.) We keep a very tight watch on her because of it. And after one trip to our free-run dog park while we were still learning this, we're never going again. However, she's wonderful with people to a fault. There's never been anyone who's set foof in our house who she hasn't loved immediately. It's kind of embarrasing, because her M.O. is to put her 65lbs. frame into the lap of any houseguest who'll sit still for it and start moaning for affection.
I can't imagine what she'd do about an agressive coyote. She was scary-fast at that dog park. She laid into a pack of 10 dogs, all about 50 lbs. + who were milling and engaging in friendly-dominance behavior that she misconstrued as agressive with zero fear.
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how is this derailed coyote, Canadian doggy posting possible without Mike Irwin bringing up
one of his former dogs ?
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He's on vacation.
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What Balog says.
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I have a 1/2 Great Pyrenees & 1/2 German Sheperd. She's up to about 130 lbs. now and is my wifes lap dog. Great with the grandkids, but only lets those we o.k. into the house and will take out the UPS man if you let her. She was a rescue dog and was a pain to housebreak but in the end it was worth the trouble. She plays a little rough with the cats, but my parrot has her buffaloed. She will chase the horses on occasion but stops when I yell at her. She mostly just playing, but when I needed her she jumped between me and a dog trying to get me and gave me time to draw and kill said dog as it came out of nowhere and I would had been in deep do-doif she hadn't reacted when she did. Goooood Dog! =D
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not intended as any disrespect to the poor young woman but with canines attitude really counts. too many folks get lost in a disney "look its so cute" fantasy. my kids learned that they neeed to ne alpha to the mutts as soon as i could make it happen and size and aggresssion can back off many wild canines. this girl was lacking in size. i might have to get a new younger dog here right away my older mutts are getting where their taking on a couple yotes might be problematic. anybody got an experience with dogs that are suitable around small kids and still yote destroyers? my husky lab was but shes getting old. (no overchurkas please i'm not sure i'm man enough)
Rotties or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Ridgeback
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"Goooood Dog"
i had a rescue mutt that got between my oldest kid and a copperhead got bit in the face doing it. thats a great way to become my favorite dog real fast
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I heard if you quote his name three times in the mirror he appears and kicks you in the nuts....
Old dog was a Springer mix. About 40lbs. Very, very fast and very dominant dog. She was a good dog, understood a cornicopia of commands.
Solo camping on South Padre Island in probably 98, sunset, chilling with a beer waiting for one of the lines to get a bite. Dog gets worked up and takes off into the sand dune. Grabbed the 10/22 and follow. She's got 3 coyotes backed up against a sand dune, and they don't look very happy. Shot two, third got out and made tracks when the lead started flying.
Current dog would probably get eaten by the coyotes....but she is like a third kid. They play and wrestle together. Amelia will sit on top of her and tell her secrets, sing songs to her. She will instigate my boy to wrestle or play ball with her.
Back to the topic....
Sounds like something that would happen in Europe. I think inaction is a side effect of the nanny state. We're next.
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In other news, a 14 year old boy shot a cougar in self defense in Montana. :)
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Was Ashton Kutcher notified? =D
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Was Ashton Kutcher notified? =D
LOLzes.