Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: tyme on November 11, 2009, 04:02:52 PM
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http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/11/11/this-just-in-dollhouse-axed/
Another Whedon show bites the dust.
:cries:
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I'd persevered with it and it was really beginning to get good. Back to Buffy then.
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13 is a very unlucky number for joss whedon. =(
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
*sigh* at least their gonna air the last 13.
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I wonder if they count you as a viewer if you DVR the show and have yet to watch most of them?
It is an interesting show, but seems to get further wrapped up in deeper conspiracy the further it goes.
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I only saw 2 episodes, but it kept my interest (which is a rare thing with tv shows).
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Does not surprise me, as it was the weakest JW show ever to air.
Also, if one puts an ounce of thought into it, one understands that there are almost no sympathetic characters and most are just plain evil.
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Also, if one puts an ounce of thought into it, one understands that there are almost no sympathetic characters and most are just plain evil.
I watched one show and quickly came to the same conclusion. Well, I exaggerate... I didn't make it through the full show.
DD
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I enjoyed the first season, but not enough to make an effort to watch the second. There are too many other offerings on Hulu to take up my free time.
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Dollhouse is still on?
The show had some PG-rated eye candy, otherwise it was only lacking plot, dialog, acting, and direction.
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I'm sure Joss will pop in for a debrief on where he has gone wrong.
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Maybe the best show since Firefly, IMHO.
Great dialog, interesting concept, and it was gradually coming to terms with the moral dilemmas the show presented.
Gotta love a show that has lines like these:
Echo's "handler", handing her a pistol:
"Do you know how to use that ?"
Echo:
"I had four brothers, and none of them were Democrats."
:lol:
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When I read in another thread that Fox was planning on running another show in its place "just for a little while."
I thought, "yea, it's canceled."
Never watched it.
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Maybe the best show since Firefly, IMHO.
Great dialog, interesting concept, and it was gradually coming to terms with the moral dilemmas the show presented.
Gotta love a show that has lines like these:
Echo's "handler", handing her a pistol:
"Do you know how to use that ?"
Echo:
"I had four brothers, and none of them were Democrats."
:lol:
See, this is where I disagree.
I can think of some shows since Firefly better than DH.
Bones
BSG Season 1 & 1st half of season 2
I bet there are more...
Also, most of the dialog blew chunks relative to the dialog of previous JW efforts.
The primary character was a doll and had no real continuity. It was like the supporting cast was constant, but the star was different every week and therefore shallow and unsympathetic, though she was supposed to be the most sympathetic character in the story.
Yeah, DH is better than 90% of the crap out there, but that isn't saying much.
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There are a lot of good TV shows, past and present. I came up with a list of 21 shows spanning 3 decades that I think are better than Dollhouse so far. Of them, only Mad Men and Damages are ongoing. So yeah, although I'm sad about the demise of Dollhouse, I agree with jfruser.
Profit (1996) was even darker and more morally compromised than Dollhouse. It also has the distinction of being one of Fox's earliest, and quickest, abortions. I highly recommend it. :)
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Other really good shows since Firefly include Deadwood and Rome. I like The Unit a lot, also.
Also, BSG, but I love the qualification that jfruser used:
BSG Season 1 & 1st half of season 2
:lol:
I agree. Somewhere in Season 2 or 3 BSG started to tank.
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There are a lot of good TV shows, past and present. I came up with a list of 21 shows spanning 3 decades that I think are better than Dollhouse so far. Of them, only Mad Men and Damages are ongoing.
No House, Dexter, True Blood?
Odd, seems that after all liking a TV program is quite a subjective thing.
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Dexter doesn't really have any sympathetic characters and yet is well into its third season and going great guns. Sometimes you have to watch more than a few episodes to get the character development, I could be wrong but a huge part of Season 2 of Dollhouse has been Echo 'compositing', you'd probably have to watch it to get that.
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Here's a collection of what the author thinks is the best TV of the 00's.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-best-tv-series-of-the-00s,35256/1/
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Here's a collection of what the author thinks is the best TV of the 00's.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-best-tv-series-of-the-00s,35256/1/
Should I feel good about myself if I have never watched any of the top ten?
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See, this is where I disagree.
I can think of some shows since Firefly better than DH.
Bones
BSG Season 1 & 1st half of season 2
I bet there are more...
Also, most of the dialog blew chunks relative to the dialog of previous JW efforts.
The primary character was a doll and had no real continuity. It was like the supporting cast was constant, but the star was different every week and therefore shallow and unsympathetic, though she was supposed to be the most sympathetic character in the story.
Yeah, DH is better than 90% of the crap out there, but that isn't saying much.
i think whedon took a diffrent direction in dollhouse in one area and its why you say it tanks.the starting of firefly he made the cast so interesting and took time to establish them and didn't really do as much that would translate to a weekly show. and he got in some trouble with FOX becuase of it.
so in dollhouse he focused on what the show was week to week at the begining, which emphisised the nature of dolls (which, yes, are not great characters in of themselves) obviously you didn't stick around long enought to see that Echo is slowly begining to have an independent personality. in fact i think it was done deliberatly that at the begining she was just a doll, so those that watch the show could see how she develops (and infer how Alpha developed). of course, its gonna get axed before we really get to see what she is.
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The guy should just make internet TV shows.
I'm sure we'd all pay to see them.
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No House, Dexter, True Blood?
House I liked through season 3. The new team and House's recent antics just don't live up to the old standards, imo. Dexter, sadly, I have not watched. True blood, however... definitely not on the list.
Should I feel good about myself if I have never watched any of the top ten?
It's not bad, but it's not good either. The Wire, Sopranos, Arrested Devel, and Mad Men are quality tv. I just finished watching The Wire, actually, after having nabbed a copy from amazon last winter at a steep discount. I really liked it. That's the only dvd set I've bought sight-unseen, and I don't regret it. Mad Men is good but requires a taste for retro-style tv.
Meanwhile, from the 90's, Murder One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_One_%28TV_series%29) is what the Law&Order series should be.
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obviously you didn't stick around long enought to see that Echo is slowly begining to have an independent personality.
Actually, I am current up to the 4th or 5th show of the 2nd season.
Too little, too late, too lame.
I liked JW's other work (in order of awesomeness):
Firefly (Damn you Fox!)
BVS
Angel
DH is just not in the same league.
FTR, I thought Terminator: SCC was a much better show than DH. (Damn you, Fox!)
The guy should just make internet TV shows.
I'm sure we'd all pay to see them.
I have seen every episode of DH on hulu, so that might work.
House I liked through season 3. The new team and House's recent antics just don't live up to the old standards, imo. Dexter, sadly, I have not watched. True blood, however... definitely not on the list.
It's not bad, but it's not good either. The Wire, Sopranos, Arrested Devel, and Mad Men are quality tv. I just finished watching The Wire, actually, after having nabbed a copy from amazon last winter at a steep discount. I really liked it. That's the only dvd set I've bought sight-unseen, and I don't regret it. Mad Mad is good but requires a taste for retro-style tv.
Meanwhile, from the 90's, Murder One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_One_%28TV_series%29) is what the Law&Order series should be.
Yep, House has jumped the shark.
I saw a couple of episodes of Dexter while on travel for work and it was very well done. It also is one of those shows that, if you are not a moral cripple, you really need to take a shower afterwards to get the moral slime off. I got a similar vibe off DH, but DH never was as well-done and doesn't have the impact.
Hmm, I might have to buy/borrow The Wire, as yous is yet another in an unbroken string of good reviews for it.
Castle is pretty good for light fare.
I have heard good things about Breaking Bad.
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The new team and House's recent antics just don't live up to the old standards, imo.
The new team? What new team?
Had you not been... watching the show?
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You're talking about the new old team that isn't really a team because House doesn't have a team again quite yet?
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True Blood is decent. House has not jumped the shark. I prefer Marmite to Vegemite. Rugby is better than American Football.
Can this conversation get more subjective? People like different shows, I think the cancellation of Dollhouse is a shame, others don't. We can't even fall back on viewer figures - Strictly American Popstar Superstar on Ice Dancing anyone?
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my take on that top 10 list:
arrested development definatly belongs there and, from what i've heard so does freaks and geeks. i saw an episode or two of the sheild and lost, both of which i would like to see eventually on dvd as i think they are shows that you cannot really jump in midway through.
i would like to see the UK version of the Office, as i love the UK coupling and can hardly beleive that show i saw once on NBC was based on the same thing.
the others... dont' know never saw them, although deadwood looks kinda cool.
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Deadwood was great. I'd buy the entire show on DVD, but I'd never get to watch it when my kids are home and awake because of the language and violence.
Chris
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There were two notable aspects about the language in Deadwood.
1, It was over the top profane.
2, When it wasn't being profane, it was extraordinarily formal, or something. Several of the characters seemed to be straining to express themselves in as formal a manner as possible, and in the second season there were a couple episodes where it was comical watching some of the characters make a simple sentence complicated or convoluted.
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Yeah. That was my main complaint with the show. I loved the story and characters though.
Chris
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Well, the profanity didn't bother me at all. A few weeks of military boot camp will cure one of that. It was mostly a lot of "cake"suckers, most notably "San Francisco cakesucker!" =D
And I enjoyed the formal, rather stilted, language. I kept wondering if people on the edges of civilization really spoke like that. They didn't in Firefly ! Except maybe Simon in the first episode or two.
I also wondered how much that was said about George Hearst was true. Wikipedia (!) confirms some of it, but nothing about his being a murderer. Apparently he was a very accomplished geologist and was later a congressman.
What surprised me is that almost all of the main characters were true from history. When I first started watching I figured just Wild Bill Hickok, his killer, and Calamity Jane. Nope.
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I read an interview with the Deadwood creators a while back explaining their choices as it related to language in the show.
They went with the rather over the top profanity because they had tried using profanity and curses from the era, but the characters just ended up sounding like Yosemite Sam and couldn't really be taken seriously by a 21st century audience.
They also chose to have SOME of the charters speak in a stilted victorian style as a reminder of the time period and as a way of creating a more defined juxtaposition between the "civilized" and the "hoople."
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An interesting essay:
http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-one (http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-one)
http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-two (http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-two)
http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-three (http://www.noisetosignal.org/2009/11/put-away-the-dollhouse-part-three)
I like this observation:
I Don’t Like Caroline
The woman that Echo used to be, Caroline, is eventually revealed to be exactly the kind of person nobody wants to watch. She’s a tediously right-on activist, plagued with a blah-blah troubled past. Who the hell has any interest in watching this girl emerge from her Active cocoon?
And this:
The thing that was meant to make Echo special was her ability to recall things, to beat the memory wipe, but it seems that’s happening with everyone. November and Sierra are exhibiting similar traits, and both seem to have far more interesting backstories. So if it’s not ‘who she is’ that makes her the centre of our focus - and how could it be? - and it’s not ‘what she’s going through’ that sets her apart...why, exactly, is this The Echo Show?
I like this comment from Whedonesque:
Dollhouse can really engage my mind. But my heart? Not so much
That really resonates with me; Dollhouse is a show whose concepts I enjoy thinking about more than whose stories I enjoy watching. Briar Rose was enormous fun, though, and Epitaph One was fascinating in the direction the show took the technology.
And this comment:
Blank slates don't sell. Strong, iconic characters sell. That's why everybody loves Jayne, and almost nobody loves Echo
I don’t mean to imply I don’t like the show; I do ! I just find this reviewer’s comments very insightful as to maybe some of the reasons why I don’t like it in the way I do Firefly. As previously pointed out, it's cerebral, but it doesn't have the heart of Firefly.
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Bit of a rubbish top ten that in jfruser's link. The Shield was - IMHO - massively overrated, as was Lost, and I defy anyone who is either British or who watched British TV during the late 80s/early 90s to watch Deadwood and not be lost in a permanent state of wonder at what on earth Lovejoy thinks he is doing. From a British perspective, my top four (in no particular order) of the 00s* are:
i) Spaced - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vUfBOdSmBU&feature=related
ii) the original Life on Mars - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPE3zCvS0zA
iii) Firefly. You can keep your remade BSG, your Star Trek: Enterprise, your remakes of V, this was by far the best scifi of the decade.
iv) The Thick of It - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNnWYBK74Jc (beware, the link is very, very NSFW). This may well be an acquired taste, it is shot in a deliberately anti-West Wing (allegedly New Labour's collective favourite show) style and treats nearly every member of the British political class with approximately 10% of the contempt that they actually deserve.
* slightly expanded to include the first series of Spaced
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I thought of a few more.
Defying Gravity
ReGenesis
Ghost in the Shell SAC
also +1 on Dexter now that I've seen it.
The Venture Brothers
FlashForward
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iii) Firefly. You can keep your remade BSG, your Star Trek: Enterprise, your remakes of V, this was by far the best scifi of the decade.
I'd find it hard to argue with that statement, since you added the qualifier ". . . of the decade." (Babylon 5 ran in the previous decade.)
I will note that some story arcs of the long-running Stargate franchise were quite good, too . . . it's unlikely we'll ever know how 10 years of Firefly, taken as a whole, would compare with 10 years of Stargate. (Ignore the awful Stargate: Universe that's running now. Please. :barf: )
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I'd find it hard to argue with that statement, since you added the qualifier ". . . of the decade." (Babylon 5 ran in the previous decade.)
I will note that some story arcs of the long-running Stargate franchise were quite good, too . . . it's unlikely we'll ever know how 10 years of Firefly, taken as a whole, would compare with 10 years of Stargate. (Ignore the awful Stargate: Universe that's running now. Please. :barf: )
At times I think the single season of Firefly might be a blessing in disguise. I can think of no episode I consider bad. I am of the opinion that single season makes it one of the best shows ever produced.
Had it gone on for, say, five years, might that quality have deteriorated? I can't say for sure, but as much as I wish for more Firefly, I don't wish for BAD Firefly.
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Had it gone on for, say, five years, might that quality have deteriorated?
Maybe, but maybe not. For me, Star Trek Next Generation hit its peak in Seasons 6 and 7. Firefly might have kept getting better and better. And if not, I don't have to buy those episodes.
In Season 1, the characters with the mysterious backgrounds and developing (in varying degrees) story arcs were the passengers: River, Book, and Inara. It seems reasonable to me (and I doubt the network would have had the guts to allow it) to phase out passengers after their stories were revealed, and bring on new passengers, thus keeping the stories fresh.
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Does anybody remember this one? I really liked it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Above_and_Beyond
I'm not a real sci-fi geek, so I think that was the first sci-fi I had ever seen that really seemed connected with the world as we know it. The props and clothing and such were not as futuristic and other-worldly as a lot of other shows, and they even carried M9 bayonets.
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I don't remember that, but that does look good.
I'm going to give it a try.
Meanwhile ... Dollhouse returns with two episodes featuring Summer Glau this Friday.
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I don't remember that, but that does look good.
I'm going to give it a try.
Meanwhile ... Dollhouse returns with two episodes featuring Summer Glau this Friday.
[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
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Space Above and Beyond? I remember that . . . wasn't really one of my favorites.
About the only thing I recall clearly about that series was one episode in which a group of elite commandos were sneaking up on a target . . . and EVERY PIECE of equipment they were carrying/wearing rattled or clanged with each step . . . and when going through a stream, they splashed like a bunch of little kids jumping in a puddle. Might as well have been playing music on a boom box for all the stealth they displayed on this "covert" op . . . ;/
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I think Space Above and Beyond was pretty marginal and totally see why it didn't get renewed. I watched it when it came out, then watched it again on DVD and was pretty underwhelmed. It was just not believable. I have a problem with the whole concept of a Marine Fighter Squadron/Infantry unit among other things.
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At times I think the single season of Firefly might be a blessing in disguise. I can think of no episode I consider bad. I am of the opinion that single season makes it one of the best shows ever produced.
Had it gone on for, say, five years, might that quality have deteriorated? I can't say for sure, but as much as I wish for more Firefly, I don't wish for BAD Firefly.
I dunno - I would have liked to see Firefly end naturally, rather than having seen it get cut off, That said, your point is valid as anyone who has compared old vs new Futurama would recognize.
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I don't know.
Imagine 7 seasons of Firefly.
Films.
An expanded universe with good writers writing for it.
Comics.
Toys.
Collectible.
A PnP RPG on the D20 system.
It would be glorious.
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Last night's two episodes with Summer Glau were good, with the following high points:
1. Summer was very good in her part
2. Victor imprinted as Topher was astonishingly good; jeez, what an actor
3. Nice twist with the reveal of the senator
4. At some point, I remember thinking "this is good sci-fi"
and low points:
1. At some point, I remember thinking "I miss Firefly."
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Last night's two episodes with Summer Glau were good, with the following high points:
1. Summer was very good in her part
2. Victor imprinted as Topher was astonishingly good; jeez, what an actor
3. Nice twist with the reveal of the senator
4. At some point, I remember thinking "this is good sci-fi"
and low points:
1. At some point, I remember thinking "I miss Firefly."
dad made the same comment about Victor. I also liked that the dolls in DC where named after gods?godesses rather then the military alphabet.
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Also, if one puts an ounce of thought into it, one understands that there are almost no sympathetic characters and most are just plain evil.
I just started watching a random episode of Dollhouse on Hulu (my first), and it occurred to me that I've never liked Eliza Dushku very much in any role in which I've seen her. Maybe it's just me, or maybe she's just not a likable actress, and thus can't carry a show.
I guess she seems like a mean person for some reason.
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Is this an anti 24 thread? 24 is the only series that I can force myself to sit through commercials for any more. What is the running commentary for 24 on APS, I haven't been here for a while :)
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Is this an anti 24 thread? 24 is the only series that I can force myself to sit through commercials for any more. What is the running commentary for 24 on APS, I haven't been here for a while :)
I've never seen an episode of 24.
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I've never seen an episode of 24.
You're not missing much. Constant crisis, someone is always turning double agent, and Jack is running around the country breaking every rule and violating civil and human rights to solve the crisis. Jack booted thuggery and win at all costs at its worst.
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I halfheartedly tried to watch Dollhouse last night, I just couldn't stay with it.
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I didn't stay with it, either. I let it run in the background for about fifteen minutes, while messing about with other web sites. Then my wife came home, so I wasn't bored enough to keep watching.
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Then my wife came home, so I wasn't bored enough to keep watching.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi21.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb278%2Frichard-rahl%2Fnudge-nudge-monty-python-105.jpg&hash=4738dd856aa0101b1ccc7041213cd31a3673e803)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/richard-rahl/nudge-nudge-monty-python-105.jpg (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/richard-rahl/nudge-nudge-monty-python-105.jpg)
:-*
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see, this is where we differ... i was on the edge of my seat for the last 3 episodes.
the last one ended all crazy like!!! :O
=D
i can't wait till next week [popcorn]
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We need Ladysmith to come back and hurl shoes at a certain someone.
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Last night's episode was terrific. Unfortunately, it's the last episode in the current timeline. In two weeks will be the actual finale, Epitaph Two, which will be ten years into the future.
Great review of last night's episode here:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-hollow-men,37159/ (http://ttp://www.avclub.com/articles/the-hollow-men,37159/)
Common theme from the reviews of the last month or so is how the show got much better as it went along. The second half of Season 1 was much better than the first half of Season 1, and Season 2 is better than Season 1. I especially like this line from the above link:
Either way, it’s been quite a progression from where Dollhouse started and where it is now. It’s as though MacGyver gradually morphed into Battlestar Galactica.
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You're not missing much. Constant crisis, someone is always turning double agent, and Jack is running around the country breaking every rule and violating civil and human rights to solve the crisis. Jack booted thuggery and win at all costs at its worst.
I've only seen a few eps and it just does nothing for me.
I do wonder though if Jack has developed some sort of nervous tic that starts at about 5 til any given hour. Because in the shows I have seen that's when the bad sh...tuff always happens or gets worse.
24 as a concept made sense once. But this sh...tuff keeps happening to the same guy (like in Die Hard) and in the same 24 hour time span?
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Common theme from the reviews of the last month or so is how the show got much better as it went along. The second half of Season 1 was much better than the first half of Season 1, and Season 2 is better than Season 1. I especially like this line from the above link:
Dollhouse is one of those stories that needs time to evolve and develop. You can't jump into it full speed right fro the start. It's a shame the powers that be at Fox weren't willing to give the space it needed.
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I've only seen a few eps and it just does nothing for me.
I do wonder though if Jack has developed some sort of nervous tic that starts at about 5 til any given hour. Because in the shows I have seen that's when the bad sh...tuff always happens or gets worse.
24 as a concept made sense once. But this sh...tuff keeps happening to the same guy (like in Die Hard) and in the same 24 hour time span?
If you accept that 24 is fiction it's usually quite enjoyable. It's a modern version of the old time movie theater cliffhanger series. Suspense is its raison d'etre.
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If you accept that 24 is fiction it's usually quite enjoyable. It's a modern version of the old time movie theater cliffhanger series. Suspense is its raison d'etre.
the only issue i have is if you miss one episode, your completely lost. its not one you can just jump right it. my dad loves it, but i don't get how he watches it. i think i'll wait till i have cash and then just watch it on dvd and knock out a season in one or two sittings, because it does look good.
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If you accept that 24 is fiction it's usually quite enjoyable.
Fiction, you say? I've duct taped trauma plates to my body, and I'm stalking Kiefer Sutherland... don't tell me this isn't real.
the only issue i have is if you miss one episode, your completely lost. its not one you can just jump right it. my dad loves it, but i don't get how he watches it. i think i'll wait till i have cash and then just watch it on dvd and knock out a season in one or two sittings, because it does look good.
You aren't missing much. Since season 4 it's been "Jack Bauer meets The West Wing." I don't expect to buy any dvd sets of 24 beyond season 4.
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Fiction, you say? I've duct taped trauma plates to my body, and I'm stalking Kiefer Sutherland... don't tell me this isn't real.
When they get too heavy, do you put them in your wheelbarrow?
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negative. the wheelbarrow is duct taped over my head to protect against shrapnel from airbursts.
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Now you're thinking.
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Just the saw the final episode tonight. Not sure what some of it meant, and some of the good guys didn't survive to the end.
I do know that this show resonated with me, and for that I'm grateful.
How often does that happen on television ?
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Just the saw the final episode tonight. Not sure what some of it meant, and some of the good guys didn't survive to the end.
I do know that this show resonated with me, and for that I'm grateful.
How often does that happen on television ?
i'm pretty sure that there were some unaired episodes that will be included it the DVD, which will make the lead up into that last episode much more understandable. notice that at the begining was the typical flashes from a previous episode, and almost non of them where from the last aired episode. i'm thinking maybe one or two will come between the last aired and the final.
i will say that i thought it was a truely great ending. also, it was a bit open ended, which means joss may be going for, at least, a comic book or graphic novel out of it.