Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 41magsnub on November 11, 2009, 04:31:54 PM
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Is it just me or do other folks find traction control in cars really annoying? I stay about 10 years behind the curve on new car technology so this is a new thing for me. My old car was a subaru legacy from right before the full time all wheel drive thing started where when there was slippage in the front tires 4wd would kick in automatically.
I like the concept of traction control when already moving and it kicks in if I start spinning. However, it is annoying the ever loving crap out of me when merging into traffic at an intersection in my 99 Avalon. If I forget to turn it off before the intersection and the road is even slightly wet it kicks in when I step on it and it lets off the gas for me. If there is any slippage at all it kicks in. This is the sort of intersection where you have to merge from a stop sign into 45+ MPH mildly heavy traffic and need to get on it a bit. I would rather the front wheels just spin a little and let me get moving rather than it trying to protect me somehow.
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It's a good thing for idiots who don't know how to handle their car, and for high performance cars that can become catastrophically out of control even for advanced drivers.
Unfortunately, that's an inverted bell curve, and you and your car are at the bottom of it.
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I agree. I feel the same way about ABS, and Honda's Linked Brake system. Broken by design I say.
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I think most all driver aids(power steering, power brakes, ABS, trac control )save the car until you get the car so far gone that God himself, or Michael Schumacher couldn't save it. IOW, it lets people push the envelope because they are no longer aware that it exists.
I've been testing the ESP out in my Mercedes c280. It is pretty hard to save a car based on traditional reactions when the stability program is trying to save it too. It does have a handy off button tho. My rigorous test protocol involves mainly seeing how far out of line I can get the rear wheels on various gravel roads. Almost time for new tires, so no more tests soon. :angel:
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I turn off the traction control almost immediately after starting the car. It's hard to chirp the tires when the motor is being electronically sedated.
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I've been known to pull the ABS and Traction fuses unless it's icy out.
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I discovered this on our "new" car last winter when we were trying to go up a muddy hill - almost to the top the TC sets in and just brings us to a dead halt. Had to back down and start all over again :(
I'm not sure if there is a way to turn it off, besides putting the AT in low gear which sorta defeats the whole purpose of driver control. (better to be in a higher gear to avoid wheel spinning)
I've found that the best way is just to drive like an idiot like the manufacturer expects - lots of throttle and let the computer figure it out. If you try to back off the power as normal it just screws everything up.
I don't really have a very high opinion of FWD either. Our old Suburban can get around just fine in 2wd after the car has to be confined to the garage. ;/
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It is pretty hard to save a car based on traditional reactions when the stability program is trying to save it too.
Exactly. And what if you WANT to spin/lockup the tires?
I've been known to pull the ABS and Traction fuses unless it's icy out.
On the GM trucks I used to drive, I pulled the ABS fuse ESPECIALLY when it was icy. I had it do some rather unsettling things.
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Exactly. And what if you WANT to spin/lockup the tires?
On the GM trucks I used to drive, I pulled the ABS fuse ESPECIALLY when it was icy. I had it do some rather unsettling things.
It depends on the car. My Acura did absolutely wonderfully in the ice with ABS, and I could see a marked improvement. My current Infiniti does well, but not as well as my Acura. My ex-wife's Honda, deleted, i'd pull the fuse even in the ice.
i'm not a very skilled ice/snow driver, since I've rarely driven in such conditions. Spent most of my driving life in California, Arizona and Texas where ice is rare, so I don't mind a little help.
What say we watch our language on this very public, all-ages forum?
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Traction control in my wife's ESV is a hoot. Driving around in 8" of snow last spring like a maniac in a parking lot...trying to do donuts >:D
Most vehicles have a button you can push to turn it off. Leave the pavement, click the button. Traction control works pretty darn well on icy, wet, or snowy roads. At least hers does.
My F150 has a rear limper. I almost killed mtnbkr and I last winter on an icy overpass....that made me go :O
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Is it just me or do other folks find traction control in cars really annoying? I stay about 10 years behind the curve on new car technology so this is a new thing for me. My old car was a subaru legacy from right before the full time all wheel drive thing started where when there was slippage in the front tires 4wd would kick in automatically.
I like the concept of traction control when already moving and it kicks in if I start spinning. However, it is annoying the ever loving crap out of me when merging into traffic at an intersection in my 99 Avalon. If I forget to turn it off before the intersection and the road is even slightly wet it kicks in when I step on it and it lets off the gas for me. If there is any slippage at all it kicks in. This is the sort of intersection where you have to merge from a stop sign into 45+ MPH mildly heavy traffic and need to get on it a bit. I would rather the front wheels just spin a little and let me get moving rather than it trying to protect me somehow.
If I were to own a vehicle with traction control I would leave it turned off permanently.
But ... that's "IF" I were to own a vehicle with traction control. Since the likelihood if that is so slight as to effectively be zero, it isn't a concern.
There's a reason that person behind the wheel is called the "driver." The manufacturers need to rethink the wisdom of making it progressively "safer" for "drivers" to spend their wheel time doing everything except driving.
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Traction control is absolute garbage.
Humorous case in point:
My wife called me one day to tell me that she got her car stuck in the driveway because it had snowed 2" during the day. I get home, start the car, put it in gear, and it doesn't move- the tire won't even spin. I turn the traction control off and drive away with no problems.
With ice and low traction conditions, you need to spin the tires to get moving. On dry pavement traction control isn't going to help you win a drag race either. It might be one of the gayest features ever put on a car.
I'm not a fan of ABS either. I think it teaches people stupid habits like jamming on the brakes instead of quickly steadily applying pressure- which will get you in trouble if your ABS invariably fails during hard braking (the ABS sensors have crapped out on 2 of my vehicles so far, once while braking hard to avoid someone running a red light.
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I like the ESP on my Jeep - especially on unplowed winter roads.
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it might be the tires, i know slick tires make my abs go nuts =) just something to think about
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I miss being able to lock up the wheels and slide sideways when I need to. Not a big fan of ABS at all. The wife's Monte has TC, it has developed a habit of engaging for no apparent reason. They can't figure it out because it doesn't register any fault codes. Sweeeet.. ;/
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The only thing I can tell you is my '99 Chevy Silverado has disconnected ABS and no traction control. I manage just fine...
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In its last days, my old Ford Ranger didn't have steering, but I persevered. ;)
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Last fun car I had was my '96 T-bird, RWD and good motor, the highlight was any parking lot after it snowed. Of course one night I pulled off a nice 360 on dry pavement with about 40mph of forward speed, so maybe it was a little too fun. =D
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ABS is good stuff. I much prefer having all my brakes work at maximum power when I need them rather than having to manually modulate my braking based on one brake that locks up early.
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Fly320s speaks true.
The same logic applies to big heavy flying things when landing, too.
There's varying levels of "traction control". Some cut power, others redistribute it to the wheels that have traction.
Hell, even the locker I installed in the back of my S-10 does its own version of traction control.
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I miss being able to lock up the wheels and slide sideways when I need to. Not a big fan of ABS at all. The wife's Monte has TC, it has developed a habit of engaging for no apparent reason. They can't figure it out because it doesn't register any fault codes. Sweeeet.. ;/
Me too.
Also kicking it into 4 wheel drive, slam on the brakes into a skid then stomp on it and make the vehicle crab walk sideways.
ABS doesn't let me get into a skid.
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Fly320s speaks true.
The same logic applies to big heavy flying things when landing, too.
There's varying levels of "traction control". Some cut power, others redistribute it to the wheels that have traction.
Hell, even the locker I installed in the back of my S-10 does its own version of traction control.
Hey, I like ABS when it's well implemented and designed properly.
I haven't come across many such systems...everything we've had completely sucks. Always going out, messing up, not doing that well, etc. It can be very expensive to replace the ABS computer, too, especially when it's the exact same design and going to exhibit the exact same issues and fail.
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Raining cats and dogs here today. 420 HP, pedal to the floor off a stop light. Not a problem. AWD + Traction control, AOkay in my book.
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abs and traction control keep my wife from killing the kids.44
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I'm generally a fan of ABS, Traction Control, Stability Control and other electronic safety features. In some cases, yes a very skilled driver can do just as well or better than the system. But most drivers on the road are not very skilled, or even if skilled & experienced, not always paying attention.
I consider myself a skilled driver who has had plenty of practice playing in snow parking lots, and I lost control once in a non-ABS vehicle when my rear tires locked up on wet pavement due to a pavement change on an exit ramp. I believe ABS would have saved me in this case, the lockup & skid occured too fast for me to correct it.
Some of the more advanced features like stability control, emergency braking assist, etc do actually get better performance from the vehicle than a driver can because they have more control. For example, emergency braking assist uses the ABS pump to rapidly apply full brake force when it detects you are hitting the brakes agressively in a panic stop. It does this faster than a human can and this shaves a few feet off of stopping distance. Or stability control, where it can individually brake one wheel to correct an excessive yaw rate that would result in a skid. Can't do that with the brake pedal.
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I'm in the don't mind ABS boat as well. I know how to pump the brakes, recover from a skid, and all that winter driving jazz, hell.. I learned to drive in winters in a 4wd (the 4wd did not work) 74 Ford 3/4 ton with extra crappy tires and a bent frame in some of the worst winters MT had in a lot of years. Everything after that seems timid.
My problem with traction control, as it is implemented in my car. is it tries to help me when I don't need/want help and the help is actually endangering me when I forget to turn it off. When it is dry I don't bother since nothing I do driving in town would trigger it.
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I understand the mechanics of ABS and use them as intended. My wife, despite much explanation still tries to pump the brake. ;/ Just lock them down and steer woman! I still regard ABS as a crutch, one more step in removing people from the underlying physics of their car. And that much more shock when the system fails. People should know how to drive without ABS, or for that matter without power brakes or any brakes.
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It does this faster than a human can and this shaves a few feet off of stopping distance.
Unless you happen to be on dry pavement, then it will add a few feet of stopping distance.
Or stability control, where it can individually brake one wheel to correct an excessive yaw rate that would result in a skid.
What if I want to put my vehicle into a skid? How can the car read my mind and decide what I want to do?
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Anyone know how to turn off TC on GM/Chevy cars, other than driving in low gear...?
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Anyone know how to turn off TC on GM/Chevy cars, other than driving in low gear...?
My older Grand prix at least has a button on the dash to shut it off....
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Unless you happen to be on dry pavement, then it will add a few feet of stopping distance.
Say what? How much engagement does ABS throw in when traction is fine and the wheel spin sensors don't flag it to modulate? ???
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Say what? How much engagement does ABS throw in when traction is fine and the wheel spin sensors don't flag it to modulate? ???
I think this would be over perfectly doing threshold braking vs. ABS.
90% of drivers will see improvement with ABS, but that last 10% won't.
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It's my understanding that ABS increasing stopping distances on dry pavement, even with the mash-it-to-the-floor technique.
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Yep, that is also my recollection from reading way to many Car & Driver / Motor Trend / etc auto mags.
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I seem to recall the idea behind ABS isn't necessarily allowing the car to stop faster - it actually doesn't. It's more so that you can retain control of the car in a panic stop; IE: veer out of the way. In a 4 wheel slide with all 4 locked up, steering input won't do much to change the direction of the car.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system
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My older Grand prix at least has a button on the dash to shut it off....
No button ... manual says to put AT in low gear. =|
There might be a way to turn it off through the computer settings ...
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Slight hijack here, but related in that it also involves the car's ECU (or PCM, as they are now called). How many of you are aware that, in addition to giving you traction control (whether or not you want it), a lot of (most? all?) new cars also have a "black box" function built into the computer. If you are involved in an accident, or arrested for speeding, they can download your car's computer memory and reconstruct how the car was driven recently.
I know BMW has had this capability for several years. My brother, who is now retired, used to be a service manager at a BMW dealership. It had to be at least five years ago that he told me the sorry tale of a young yuppie type whose new BMW was brought in on a hook. The guy told them the engine just "quit," and he wanted it repaired under warranty. The shop pulled the computer, scanned it, and found that the guy must have been racing because he had SERIOUSLY exceeded the red line before the engine exploded. No warranty.
In that case, of course, the guy didn't deserve to have his engine replaced for free and I have no sympathy. At the same time, I don't think I care to drive a car ("vehicle") that I know is going to rat me out if I should happen to engage in a brief moment of extra legal velocity enhancement. Just one more reason to keep my old cars running. As long as the body doesn't disappear completely, new (rebuilt) engines are a lot cheaper than new cars, and don't increase my taxes. And they won't rat me out.
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Slight hijack here, but related in that it also involves the car's ECU (or PCM, as they are now called). How many of you are aware that, in addition to giving you traction control (whether or not you want it), a lot of (most? all?) new cars also have a "black box" function built into the computer. If you are involved in an accident, or arrested for speeding, they can download your car's computer memory and reconstruct how the car was driven recently.
I'm very well aware. OnStar is something else to be wary of, too, as I'm sure you know.
Anybody know when GM started adding a "blackbox" feature to there vehicles? I'd be very interested to know whether or not my '99 Silverado has such. I know OnStar started in '01, IIRC.
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Several people have mentioned this, and I just want to add to the fodder... ABS, Traction Control, etc. do help about 90% of the drivers out there, especially when used correctly. But for those of us that KNOW how to drive.... My Dad is one of those examples. He used to build race cars as a young man, including breaking in the engines. Let me tell you. That man can DRIVE. Unless it's in a race car that's on the bleeding edge of performance, where it'll add that extra 0.1% margin of stability, he hates the idea of traction control. Same with ABS. One of the new ideas he's seen on "high performance" cars is "Launch Control". It's designed to avoid breaking the tires loose on heavy acceleration from a stop. He looks at something like that and says, "that's why the gas pedal is analog, not an on/off switch." :)
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I've got an Eaton Tru-Trac in the rear of my F150 and l.o.v.e. it.
Mashing the pedal on a snowy road and having the rear end fishtail while tossing dual roostertails is the only thing I like about winter.
The rover has open diffs, with a locking center differential (transfer case). This is a manual locker, and splits the torque between the front and rear. Things get spooled up on the pavement, so it gets engaged only in sand or snow or off road.
If I ever pry my wife's butt out of the driver's seat, I'll be installing a Detroit Locker in the rear (with the requisite driving flange/axle upgrade).
Admittedly, these mechanical lockers are not exactly what y'all are discussing, but anything that evens out torque when I have a wheel spinning is good in my book (with a few exceptions).
I do like rear ABS on a pickup with rear drum brakes. The added predictability is nice. I've permanently disabled ABS systems on personal vehicles, and have never looked back. It's nothing I'd recommend.
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One of the new ideas he's seen on "high performance" cars is "Launch Control". It's designed to avoid breaking the tires loose on heavy acceleration from a stop. He looks at something like that and says, "that's why the gas pedal is analog, not an on/off switch."
As a friend of mine who builds and races drag cars told me, tire spin isn't that big of a deal so long as the car doesn't move across the starting line before the green light.
Not breaking the tires loose under hard accelleration definately saves tires, but at what cost? If the control system adds $10,000 to the cost of the car, are you ever going to make that up in tires saved?
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Most of my hostility to trac control coms from real honest to god traction control as found in race cars. The cubic dollars aspect of traction control is killing short track racing. Ought to be a clue if F1 mulls banning traction control because it is too expensive. The prime suspects in the big leagues of Friday night racing are anyone running an electronic ignition. Pretty rudimentary, but the box recognizes an out of parameter RPM increase, reads that as wheel spin then retards the spark timing to kill power, or even kills the spark to stutter the motor. The tech only gets more advanced from there, enabling people who don't know how to run a throttle to still be race car drivers.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpremium1.uploadit.org%2FdocZox%2F%2FPelicanBriefs.jpg&hash=3f318d4899c776da9aba080147a11fae890dd4c8)
LA MARQUE, Texas — The owner of one of the world’s fastest production automobiles accidentally drove his fine-tuned, French-built car into a saltwater lagoon Wednesday.
The man, who police said was from Lufkin, was uninjured after escaping the partially submerged Bugatti Veyron as it came to rest in about 2 feet of saltwater.
The two-seater, with 16 cylinders and four turbo chargers, can reach speeds of more than 250 mph. New models sell for about $2 million.
The man, who refused to give his name, was looking at real estate in Galveston.
About 3 p.m. a low-flying pelican distracted him as he traveled north on Interstate 45 just south of the hurricane levee near Omega Bay.
The man jerked the wheel, dropped his cell phone, and the car’s front tire left the frontage road and entered a muddy patch, which foiled his attempt to maneuver away from the lagoon.
The Veyron’s powerful engine gurgled like an outboard motor for about 15 minutes before it died.
Police and firefighters blocked the frontage road until MCH Towing employee Gilbert Harrison carefully wenched the car away from riprap and onto the soft, muddy bank.
It’s the rarest car in the world, not something you can just replace, the man said.
An Associated Press story in October mentioned a 2006 model Veyron for sale in Jonesboro, Ark., with an asking price of $1.25 million.
One of the prospective buyers was from Texas.
That Bugatti Veyron was one of only 200 made and one of only about 15 in the United States, the AP reported.
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The prime suspects in the big leagues of Friday night racing are anyone running an electronic ignition. Pretty rudimentary, but the box recognizes an out of parameter RPM increase, reads that as wheel spin then retards the spark timing to kill power, or even kills the spark to stutter the motor.
Huh. Having learned a bit about electronic ignition systems after installing them on one of my vehicles and seeing the effect of hitting the rev limit, I never thought of that aspect of setting a rev limit on an electronic ignition..Neat.
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Had one of those on the ignition box of my Pro-Street S-10 dragster. I could set the ignition cut-out to prevent the engine and blower from departing each other when I got a bit rambunctious at the Christmas Tree. =D
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But most drivers on the road are not very skilled, or even if skilled & experienced, not always paying attention.
Ban the automatic transmission and you'll fix a huge percentage of those. They'll all be stuck restarting the car every 3 feet until they get out and walk like they should have done in the first place.
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Ban the automatic transmission and you'll fix a huge percentage of those. They'll all be stuck restarting the car every 3 feet until they get out and walk like they should have done in the first place.
Yes! For the children. *Hurries off to start clutch repair business...
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I've had mine hit the brakes when I hit the gas. It seems it doesn't want to launch from a stop with ABS on. Of course I didn't realize that it was hitting the brakes with no pedal input until I looked at my pads =|.
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Yes! For the children. *Hurries off to start clutch repair business...
Clutch: $150 w/labor. AT rebuild: $3,500. I'd rather change a clutch every few years. I don't even mind doing it every 6-12 mo of driving hard, compared to what can happen with an automatic pushed beyond its limits.
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Oh I know, but a clutch in good hands can last a looong time. Never changed one of mine actually. Not a slushbox fan by any means, but I did get my AT rebuilt for $600, my labor was free since I had/have no job. Cheap entertainment and an excuse to buy a tranny jack. What could possibly go wrong? ;/
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where can you get a clutch for 150? i want 2 please!
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where can you get a clutch for 150? i want 2 please!
It's been a while since I had a car that was in good enough shape to bother replacing a clutch on, but that was what it cost for my old 1985 Nissan 200SX back when I had it.
IIRC, a full transmission rebuild was $750 with labor, and that's from the good transmission guy.
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a clutch in good hands can last a looong time
Mine do. ;) Actually, the throwout bearings fail first, but most of my vehicles were bought used so who knows what happened before? I suppose double-clutching increases wear on the bearing while reducing wear on the disc.
Nice thing about GM pickups/trucks is that they used mostly the same clutch parts from the 1940s up through at least the 1980s. =)