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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: chaim on December 29, 2005, 09:20:53 AM

Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: chaim on December 29, 2005, 09:20:53 AM
John Demjanjuk is finally being deported!
 
You all may remember him.  He was accused some years back of being the especially sadistic Nazi concentration camp guard "Ivan the Terrible".  He was deported to Israel where he was tried, convicted, and sentenced to hanging.  It went to the Israeli Supreme Court where they decided that, while there was plenty of evidence that he was an SS concentration camp guard, there wasn't enough that he was "Ivan the Terrible" (they decided to ignore the testimony of dozens of witnesses/survivors).  Israel decided not to retry him for what could be proven and he returned to the US where he was stripped of his citizenship because he lied about being an SS concentration camp guard on his application for citizenship.  Finally, he is being deported!
 
As for those who agree with his defense, he was just following orders and if he disobeyed he would have faced disciplinary action- that was discredited as a defense in Neuremburg.
 
As for those who say "but he's just an old man"- well so were many of the people piled into cattle cars, brought to the several camps he worked in during the war, and who he guarded as they were led to the gas chambers.  I have no sympathy for this man.
 
As for those who say "but it was so long ago", I have two things to say.  First, I'm pretty sure there is no statute of limitations on murder and war crimes.  Second, while there are still survivors who lived through hell and had their families murdered (under Demjanjuk's watchful eye) it was never "long ago" in their memories but something they live with everyday.  As long as there are survivors and perpetrators still alive it is far from ancient history.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Paddy on December 29, 2005, 09:27:50 AM
JUstice delayed is justice denied IMO.  It's time for him to face the music and either prove 'reasonable doubt' or pay for his crimes.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Chris on December 29, 2005, 09:50:33 AM
Many times, the wheels of justice turn slowly.  But, they do turn.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: jefnvk on December 29, 2005, 11:00:04 AM
Whether or not being stripped of US citizenship is justice or not, I don't really know.  My guess would be no.

But I do have a problem with this whole 'I was under orders is never a valid excuse'.  Same thing with the whole 'those camps were just a mile from town, you guys should have done something about it'.  If you can't take the time to look and see (and it should be pretty obvious anyways) what kind of involvement they had, whether they were a willing participant or someone just following orders, then I question you ability to try them for crimes.  And honestly, I have been a mile from places that I wonder whats going on inside, but when there are guys with guns telling me not to come closer, I do as they say.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: 280plus on December 29, 2005, 11:54:30 AM
I just finished reading "Defying Hitler". Chilling account of how easy it was for the Nazi's to pull off what they did. I knew one survivor of Auschwitz (IIRC) who still had the crudely (and I mean CRUDELY) tattooed ID number on his forearm. He got it when he was 7 years old. He was an old man in a nursing home when I met him.

Later...

I'm thinking I got the numbers wrong on his age. He may have been a little older when he was tattoed. I know he wasn't an adult when it happened though. That was made very clear. I remember the impression that he was just a child when it happened. Very sad to me.

The guy was an absolute wiz at jigsaw puzzles. I don't know if any of you recall the jigsaw puzzle that was a solid red circle. Most people couldn't finish it. He did in 2 hours.

Anyways, as far as Demjanjuk, justice or not, we don't need that type here in the US, I'm glad he is gone or soon leaving.

Here's one thing that has always puzzled me. How can those of Jewish descent purchase things like Mercedes Benzs and BMWs?
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Antibubba on December 29, 2005, 05:15:59 PM
Deported to where?
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 29, 2005, 05:34:03 PM
Hell, hopefully.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: matis on December 29, 2005, 05:37:33 PM
Quote from: chaim
John Demjanjuk is finally being deported!
 
  It went to the Israeli Supreme Court where they decided that, while there was plenty of evidence that he was an SS concentration camp guard, there wasn't enough that he was "Ivan the Terrible" (they decided to ignore the testimony of dozens of witnesses/survivors).
Chaim,

The Supreme Court decided to ignore this testimony because it was given by Jews.  Now if it had been given by Arabs, OTOH, they would have believed the testimony.

Israel's Supreme Court (and most of her lower courts) is an enemy of Israel and of the Jewish people.

From debkafile.com
"They just stopped the construction of Work on the Jerusalem-Maaleh Adummim security barrier is interrupted by an Israeli High Court temporary injunction. It was handed down in response to a petition from the Arab village of al Azariya."

Their Supreme Court is so far left and "post-Zionist" that they can be relied on to side with the Palestinians instead of the Jews more often than not.  They consider inconveniencing Arabs more important than safeguarding the lives of Israeli citizens from terrorist attack.  They're even more twisted than our own Supreme Court.



As for Demjianjuk, he is finally being deported to the Ukrain.  So what?

His standard of living may drop a bit.  But he's in his eighties.  He's already beaten the game.  Unless they try him and execute him in the Ukrain, extremely unlikely considering that their age-old anti-Semistism is right out in the open again, he will die in bed of old age.



My father's 2nd wife was a concentration camp survivor.  She couldn't stop having recurring nightmares.  Finally, in the late 70's, more than 30 years after her liberation, she killed herself.

There is little justice to be found in the world.




You made excellent points in your post.


 
matis
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Waitone on December 29, 2005, 07:24:20 PM
See, see!  The US can deport someone. . . . . .it took 40 years but he was deported.  Wayto go!
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: chaim on December 29, 2005, 08:35:32 PM
Quote
Here's one thing that has always puzzled me. How can those of Jewish descent purchase things like Mercedes Benzs
Well, I would never buy a Mercedes or BMW if I had the money, but I would buy a Volkswagen.  

My view is that the Nazis were evil, not all Germans were, and certainly not all Germans today are, Nazis.

The post-WWII generations have done a very good job of trying to come to grips with their history and to insure that it couldn't happen again.  To me, to boycott all things German today is like saying that the Nazis were inherently German.  By that I mean it is to say it couldn't have happened anywhere else, that the Germans have a special capacity for evil that no one else does.  I know that after the war that was a popular opinion because people generally didn't want to think it could happen here (wherever "here" was) and some people hold by that today.  However, I think it is very naive and childish to think that way.

Many Germans resisted (I know a woman who's father was in and out of German jails through WWII for being anti-Nazi and a German citizen).  Many Poles resisted, many helped, at least with the "Jewish Problem".  Same with the French- as romanticized as the Resistance has become most people lost sight of the fact that far more Frenchmen collaborated than resisted (of course, most did neither).  Many US companies (notably Ford, Chase Bank, IBM, Dow Chemicals among many others) had close relationships with the Nazis, and some of their European subsidararies even were close to the Nazis during WWII.  The Japanese were German allies and did some pretty rotten things themselves (one of my dad's uncles is still MIA in the Pacific BTW).  The Germans weren't the only ones involved, and they aren't inherently evil.  Many others had culpability as well.  To boycott any company or group with ties to the Nazis in their past won't leave you much.  

If the Germans as a people don't hold some special evil, then not all Germans (especially those today) are culpable for what happened.

So I think those who buy Mercedes, BMW, and some other German products are mostly people who think like I do above, but without the rest.

When looking at a German company (or a company of any nationality with Nazi ties in its history) I tend to look at its history before, during AND since WWII.

I will never buy a Mercedes because they have shown themselves to be the same kind of company since WWII that they were during WWII, no remorse or repentance.  During the '70s and '80s Mercedes reported union organizers in their South American factories to the authorities in fascist Argentina even when they knew the people who were on the lists they gave the government were "disappearing".  

I will never buy BMW because they have done all they could to avoid reparations to the slave laborers who they employed (and profited from) during WWII.

I would buy Volkswagen because they have no Nazi ties.  Yes, the original Bug was designed on Hitler's orders.  However, the company we know as Volkswagen didn't exist until after WWII when the British saw a need for people in their zone of occupation to have reliable and affordable transportation.  There was already the design on the books so they opened up the factory in Wolksburg that came to be the Volkswagen company we know today.
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: 280plus on December 30, 2005, 12:58:22 AM
Thanks for the insight chaim. Very good points. While I wasn't aware of Volkswagen's history I do know that MB and BMW had extensive Nazi ties. Maybe it's the Italian coming out in me but if I was Jewish I believe I'd have no love for those companies. We are known for being a tad vindictive. shocked

Cheesy
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: chaim on December 30, 2005, 08:10:56 AM
Quote from: 280plus
Thanks for the insight chaim. Very good points. While I wasn't aware of Volkswagen's history I do know that MB and BMW had extensive Nazi ties. Maybe it's the Italian coming out in me but if I was Jewish I believe I'd have no love for those companies. We areknown for being a tad vindictive. shocked

Cheesy
Thanks for the compliment.  

I understand the rest of the sentiment, and it isn't just an Italian thing.  Many Jews don't want to have anything to do with anything German.  This is especially common with survivors and their children.  For some reason it is more common as well with the Orthodox population than Reform or Conservative Jews (look at any Reform or Conservative synagogue parking lot on Saturday morning and if it is in an affluent area you will see plenty of BMW and Mercedes, yet you'll almost never see an Orthodox Jew driving a Volkswagen let alone a BMW or Mercedes).
Title: It is about time- Nazi War Criminal finally deported
Post by: Guest on December 30, 2005, 12:40:56 PM
Germans are very touchy about the topic..my experience is that they are collectively deeply ashamed of their history and go to extraordinary lengths to stop any sort of behavior that they feel serves as a reminder of the nazis.

Also, military service is compulsary there (actually, there's a choice between that and a social service) but its not regarded as something to take pride in..the opposite, really..it's a reminder of the guilt their country has for the deaths of Jews and others.