Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Bigjake on December 04, 2009, 06:12:11 PM
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My old desktop isn't worth fixing, and I'm in the market for something new and shiny. Could some of you computer literate guys point me in the right direction for a new one?
I want something capable of moderate gaming that's got growing room for upgrades.I've got a new 750 watt power supply and a GeForce 8800 GT on hand from last winters upgrade, if that helps. and 4 gigs of DDR2
What do I need?
Pricewatch shows AMDs, core 2 dous, core 2 quads, Core i5s.... And I don't have the slightest idea which one of these to start with.
Cost isn't a huge concern, but whatever I buy has to last a few years .
???
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Whatever you do, get Windows Vista. XP is totally out-dated, of course, and everybody hates that new Win7 thing.
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Whatever you do, get Windows Vista. XP is totally out-dated, of course, and everybody hates that new Win7 thing.
THat ain't what I'm hearing. Even Dell is now offering some business class computers with Windows 7 on media and XP installed -- skipping right over Vista. Vista seems to be universally loathed. (And, IMHO, with good reason, although I'm neither an IT person nor a geek.)
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Hawkmoon, Fistful was being tongue-in-cheek. I even picked up on it, and I ain't the brightest bulb in the display... ;)
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Tigerdirect has some interesting kits.
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Vista is HORRIBLE. My mom as well as quite a few of my friends ended up with it when they bought new computers and they are extremely sorry. I got a brand new computer 2 months ago and made quite sure it had Windows XP and I love it.
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IIRC Microsoft has a program whereby one can purchase a downgrade to XP from Vista. Not much of a vote of confidence, is it?
I second TigerDirect.
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IIRC Microsoft has a program whereby one can purchase a downgrade to XP from Vista. Not much of a vote of confidence, is it?
I second TigerDirect.
It's funny. I really like Windows 7. I have had it since the beta. But I have already seen Micro Center showing new computers with Windows 7 and a downgrade to XP.
I've been out of the business side for a couple years so that may be something done for small businesses that only want to deal with one operating system.
I had three versions of windows running at the last company I worked for. It didn't matter. Someone in the office could screw up any one of them.
jim
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Win7 or XP will both work for gaming. Buying Vista for your purposes is crazy, because Win7 has noticeably better gaming performance. Keep in mind that if you use 32-bit xp or win7, you'll be limited to 4GB of ram usable by the OS. If you want the option of adding more in the future, you'll need a 64-bit windows OS.
Since you already have some ddr2 memory and you're going to use it for gaming, I'd suggest a core2 quad like the q9550. i5/i7 motherboards are more expensive, and use more expensive ddr3 ram (which you don't already have). On the other hand, if you're going to do a fair amount of virtualization and want it to be as fast as possible, the on-chip memory controller of i5/i7 nehalem chips (or AMD chips, which have had on-chip mem controllers for a while now) is worth it.
q9550
LGA 775 motherboard supporting ddr2
4gb-8gb ddr2 ram
2x 1TB hdd (raid-1 mirror), optional wd 10krpm raptor to install games onto if you want them to load faster.
radeon 57xx-58xx or nvidia gtx 2xx
win7 home or pro x64 (pro if you want winxp mode virtualization for old apps)
sata cdrom drive if you want to get rid of pata drives completely
dual 24" LCDs perhaps :)
or-
i7-920
LGA 1366 board
6gb ddr3 ram
same drives/video/OS/cdrom
newegg and tigerdirect are good shops.
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Anyone who can't get Vista to run just a beautifully as XP doesn't need to be building their own computer.
Vista is a great operating system once it's tweaked... It's just not so great "out of the box" I'd compare it to a 1911. You spend too much on it, then it needs a good Fluff and buff, and it will last you forever with no problems :D
Haven't tried Windows 7 yet, but from what I understand it's "Vista Lite" They removed all the crap that was useless, and added a few new toys, making it faster. Every Vista machine I've touched has gotten the same treatment for free.
Get yourself a custom rig from Cyberpower PC or Ibuypower... As long as you can put up with waiting a few weeks for them to come in, they're pretty well built, and you can "usually" get them to fix it if it's under warranty... (Better than some Dell service centers) I've had friends buy from both of them and have been happy.
If you're good enough to build your own, Processor choice is just that, personal choice, I prefer AMD, but you may like Intel. Look at Number of cores, core speed, and cache.
A Quad core at 2.2ghz blows away a Dual core at 2.8
More L1 and L2 cache is a good thing.
If "money is no object" and you like AMD, go with AMD Phenom II X4 Processor 965 (3.4GHz), they can be found under $200 if you look hard enough.
If "money is no object" and you're an Intel fan... Well, the I7 is new, and pretty damn flashy, as well as expensive. Intel Core I7 975, you're looking at near $1000 just for the CPU:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4777383&Sku=I69-0975&SRCCODE=PWATCH&cm_mmc_o=2mHCjCVybgwczfgtCjCVqHCjCdwwp
Personally, My current machine is an AMD Phenom Quad Core 9600, with 4gb of DDR2 and a ATI Radeon 4670 (512 ddr4) and there hasn't been a game or program it won't run with moderate settings, and I expect that with a new video card next year, she'll last me another 2 years easilly. I spent less than $600 to build it about a year ago.
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Big Jake,
Sorry to mis-direct the thread into the OS debate. =( I thought it would be a harmless joke. 7 and XP are both excellent OS's, as far as I can tell. Haven't messed with Vista, so I really don't know about that.
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my main concerns would be finding something with the expansion slots for what you already have. I'd find a reasonably good computer with good processor at a decent price and do the upgrades at home. IF for even moderate gaming I'd go with something at least 2 cores, even better would be four. Even at the same speed the quad core is going to be coasting along much easier then the dual core. AMD or Intel doesn't really matter IMO as both are good.
Brand wise I've had better luck with HP/Compaq then anything else off the shelf. Many have good experiences with dell but I can't stand them. Worst desktop I ever owned and they refused to honor the warranty stating it was a software problem, yet they couldn't identify what software problem and wanted me to crack open the case and start pushing on cards and such to see if any were loose. That's a software problem? And my fiancees Dell laptop is a much bigger POS then my old HP laptop with a few glitches here and there ever was.
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Hawkmoon, Fistful was being tongue-in-cheek. I even picked up on it, and I ain't the brightest bulb in the display... ;)
Oh.
Never mind.
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I just assembled a desktop for a friend in Missouri. It's not the absolute top of the line, but I like it so well that I will probably build myself one just like it in the next month or two:
http://3btech.net/tha2allcohef.html (Heat sink and fan $30)
http://3btech.net/seatalg22xdv.html (DVD Recorder $28)
http://3btech.net/chdufan600wa.html (power supply - $20)
http://3btech.net/thsors101vgs.html (Thermaltake Case- $80- this went down a bit)
http://3btech.net/new12fopinmo.html (additional case fan- $ 7)
http://3btech.net/blmupaandalf.html (SD card reader with USB- $16)
http://3btech.net/seataiis30we5.html (500GB Hard drive- $57)
http://3btech.net/80slfanblfor.html (PCI slot fan for additional cooling- $9)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103711&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3watch&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3watch-_-Processors+-+Desktops-_-AMD-_-19103711 (AMD Phenom X3 triple core Processor $ 73)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135074 (ECS Motherboard w/ RAID $50 w/ rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227199&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3watch&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3watch-_-Memory+%28Desktop+Memory%29-_-OCZ+Technology-_-20227199 (memory $80)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116754 (Windows 7 -$107)
This comes out to $557.00 for all of the parts w/ shipping.
It assembled easily enough and Windows 7 is da bomb!! I really like it!! The computer works great and will last a while, especially for what his wife uses it for. The prices have changed lately. Windows7 can be had cheaper and the memory has gone up.
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My wife's new laptop has 7 on it and I'm pretty impressed. Much better than vista. It just seems faster. It's a $300 laptop and she manages to play a few games on it. (sim games)
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Thanks much for what's been posted so far. No worries fistful, we know who to blame :P
Win7 or XP will both work for gaming. Buying Vista for your purposes is crazy, because Win7 has noticeably better gaming poerformance. Keep in mind that if you use 32-bit xp or win7, you'll be limited to 4GB of ram usable by the OS. If you want the option of adding more in the future, you'll need a 64-bit windows OS.
Since you already have some ddr2 memory and you're going to use it for gaming, I'd suggest a core2 quad like the q9550. i5/i7 motherboards are more expensive, and use more expensive ddr3 ram (which you don't already have). On the other hand, if you're going to do a fair amount of virtualization and want it to be as fast as possible, the on-chip memory controller of i5/i7 nehalem chips (or AMD chips, which have had on-chip mem controllers for a while now) is worth it.
q9550
LGA 775 motherboard supporting ddr2
4gb-8gb ddr2 ram
2x 1TB hdd (raid-1 mirror), optional wd 10krpm raptor to install games onto if you want them to load faster.
radeon 57xx-58xx or nvidia gtx 2xx
win7 home or pro x64 (pro if you want winxp mode virtualization for old apps)
sata cdrom drive if you want to get rid of pata drives completely
dual 24" LCDs perhaps :)
or-
i7-920
LGA 1366 board
6gb ddr3 ram
same drives/video/OS/cdrom
newegg and tigerdirect are good shops.
Tyme,
that's EXACTLY the sort of advice I'm looking for. In your opinion, should I go with the quad core and spend more on ram and cooling system, or should I go with a basic i7 and accessorize down the road?
Thor,
You pretty happy with the AMD chip? I've never even considered them, because I know nothing about em'.. I'm not against AMD at all, just always used Intel stuff..
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You pretty happy with the AMD chip? I've never even considered them, because I know nothing about em'.. I'm not against AMD at all, just always used Intel stuff..
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll give my .02 just because I'm nosy like that.
AMD offers "More bang for the buck".. Intel processors always have, and most likely always will have the advantage in speed, and the cutting edge. What AMD does is offer comparable performance for less money. AMD seems to always be one step behind Intel the past few years.
Three years ago, I would have told you to buy an AMD over an Intel for gaming, as their core units functioned better for gaming than the Intel offerings. This is not so much true today.
Rough example: If you look at an AMD processor with 4 cores running at 3.2ghz having 256k cache on each core, it would cost about $200, the same "specs" from Intel would usually cost twice the amount.
If you benchmark them against each other using the exact same hardware, the Intel chip would just edge out the AMD. So it comes down to are you willing to pay 50-100% more for a 5% increase in performance? The hard core gaming crews usually will...
For the budget-minded user, AMD is king, and will never be knocked from that pedestal. If you buy a $1000 Intel i7 chip, in 6 months that exact chip will be $400, where as if you buy a $200 AMD chip, in 6 months it will cost $150.
I hope I've been helpful.
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zombienerd,
That's definitely helpful. Didn't know that about AMD. Sorta makes sense now, all the Dell machines I've looked at are AMD hardware.
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Whatever you do, get Windows Vista. XP is totally out-dated, of course, and everybody hates that new Win7 thing.
No...
Vista is awful, and Windows 7 is amazing.
How'd you get so backwards?
Oh...wait...
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Zombienerd said it well. Unless you're doing the specific things that the i7 can do better than other chips (most people don't), you're way better off with an AMD Phenom. Make sure to get an AMD compatible MB that will take up to 8gig RAM (some take only 4) and you'll be able to expand later on if you want.
AMD is really good about being backward (and forward) compatible, so it's easy to swap to faster RAM, newer chips, etc. on the same MB down the road if you want to.
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Browsing Pricewatch.. This looks pretty decent for the AMD camp:
http://www.ascendtech.us/customkititems.asp?kc=DTWINPHENII9651
And I'm assuming the "X4" makes it a quad?
And the Intel:
http://www.ascendtech.us/customkititems.asp?kc=DTWINC2QQ955512
Are these a decent place to start?
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I love AMD processors. Dollar for dollar, they are the best. MY 1.4 GHz athlons (one 1.4 GHz processor in each computer) runs circles around the one PC I have with a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4. I haven't toyed with the new Intel Processors because I've stayed with AMD for the most part. I've bought stuff from ascendtech but I prefer Newegg and 3btech as vendors.
AS far as the two system you've selected, I'd go with more RAM (4GB) for W7 and better cooling for the AMD Processor. Extra case fans are always good to have because4, IMO, the cooler, the better.
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Whatever you do, make sure to get the new Sarcasm 5.0 upgrade ;)
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Whatever you do, make sure to get the new Sarcasm 5.0 upgrade ;)
What interface to patch scapegoat.. :laugh:
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Windows 7 is nicer than Vista (what it should have been) and better in many areas than my last install of XP Pro x64 for gaming.
As an i7 + X58 owner I can also say that you don't really need it, but I like shiny toys. The AMD chips will do just great.
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In your opinion, should I go with the quad core and spend more on ram and cooling system, or should I go with a basic i7 and accessorize down the road?
My opinion? i7-920. Here's a thread with some benchmarks from last January: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15035
Intel is releasing their next major chip (6-core i9/gulftown) early next year on socket 1366. If you get an i7-920, you can upgrade to a 6-core i9 without having to spend $300-$400 replacing the ram and motherboard as well. The i9 will have some additional instructions to make encryption faster, supports virtualized 16-bit real mode and other v12n tweaks.
Better virtualization performance. Even if you think it'll be a gaming box, you're probably going to be messing around with virtualization a bit. An i7 (or AMD processor) will be faster for that.
i7 motherboards are targeted at the high-end market segment, so they are more likely to support the latest and greatest features... things like usb3, sata3, and more ports of various kinds on the back panel.
It boils down to whether the extra performance of an i7 is worth a $250 premium ($150 for a kit of 3x 2GB ddr3 sticks, and roughly an extra $100 between the motherboard and the cpu).
If you get a quad core2 like the q9550 and spend the entire $250 difference on a better graphics card, the quad core2 will probably perform better for games.
AMD vs Intel: AMD was winning in performance from 2003-2006. Then Intel came out with the core2, which was 64-bit and beat athlons for typical workloads. The one area where AMD remained superior was in memory handling and virtualization, since AMD has been using on-die MMUs since the athlon64. Intel's nehalem architecture (i7) finally caught up in that area, so there's no longer a compelling reason to choose one brand over the other.