Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Grandpa Shooter on December 23, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
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Question: Read the article below and then answer me this question. Do the farmers have any liability in this crash?
A late morning dust storm Tuesday created a devastating accident scene on Interstate 10, about a mile south of McCartney Road, that the Arizona Department of Public Safety’s Officer Robert Bailey described as the worst he’s ever responded to in his seven years with the department.
The scene was the combination of a twelve-vehicle pile-up, consisting of six commercial vehicles and six passenger cars, and a ten-vehicle crash consisting of seven semi-trucks and three passenger vehicles. Witnesses said one of the trucks in the forward collision exploded, igniting a major fire that consumed the majority of the vehicles involved. The wreckage resembled a war zone.
The accident claimed the life of 17 year-old Katie Eide and her 14 year-old brother Mark, both of Casa Grande. The Eides were riding in a Jeep Cherokee on their way to the Dairy Queen at Picacho Peak.
Also falling victim to the chaos was 25 year-old Edgar Ivan Medina Vargas of Iowa City, Iowa. Vargas was killed when his GMC pickup was smashed between the trailer of a stopped semi and a trailer-less semi, driven by his father, who had been following him.
Many others were injured. Five patients were airlifted to various local hospitals and two more were transported by ground ambulance. Two commercial vehicle drivers, plus three children and their parents were treated on-scene and released.
According to Bailey, the farm fields which lie adjacent to the freeway were recently plowed. Heavy winds from an approaching thunderstorm blew the loose dirt across the traffic lanes resulting in near zero visibility.
Bailey stressed the need for motorists to use caution when encountering low visibility from blowing dust on the roadways. “What we want you to do is pull off the road altogether and turn off your lights,” the officer said. “Several folks did that today and it saved their lives.” Bailey added that drivers should pull completely off the pavement and as close to the roadside fence as possible. “You’d rather be stuck in the dirt and mud than involved in something like that,” the officer said, indicating the gruesome wreckage behind him.
Both the west and eastbound lanes of I-10 were closed for about three hours. The road was opened to westbound traffic around 2:00 pm. The eastbound lanes remained closed, with traffic being diverted onto McCartney, until around 8:30.
DPS officials also reported several other injury and non-injury collisions due to blowing dust along I-10. Those incidences occurred at various locations between Eloy and Marana.
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Question: Read the article below and then answer me this question. Do the farmers have any liability in this crash?
I don't know. But I'll answer with a question: Should they?
And another:
Are farmers to cease ploughing fields?
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I think this is considered just like limited visibility caused by rain, snow, fog, ash. It's the drivers faults for not taking appropriate measures (slowing down, getting off the road, etc)
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This happened a few years ago in Montana, too. (real dry back then)
IIRC, a news reporter / photographer team from Great Falls TV station were killed when skworshed between two trucks.
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I don't know. But I'll answer with a question: Should they?
And another:
Are farmers to cease ploughing fields?
This is not the first time people have been killed on this stretch. In the traveling I have done, I have seen areas where there are signs saying something to the effect of, "When lights are flashing, road is closed ahead". It would seem reasonable to me that the same sort of precautions should be taken in this often repeated scenario here in Az. This is the first time I have ever seen the news story include the fact that the farmers tilling up their fields were the actual cause of the dust storm. Obviously, with no wind there is no storm. We can't control the wind, but shouldn't we take precautions in areas heavily traveled?
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that the farmers were the cause.
I agree with the sentiment that this was caused by driver error.
Now, if the farmers were out there tilling the fields WHILE the massive wind was coming through, and they observed that they were creating a massive dust cloud because they were tilling dry dirt in the wind, then MAYBE you could make a case that they were partially liable, but it sounds like the fields had been tilled well before the dry stretch which was followed by the wind.
In some parts of the country, drivers run into this level of visibility routinely throughout the winter, and these types of accidents don't commonly happen.
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I remember a few really nasty dust storms out in the Arizona desert of my youth: none were near a plowed field.
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Lack of sleep caused me to read the thread title as "Thousands die in massive I-10 crash near Casa Grande."
:O
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According to Bailey, the farm fields which lie adjacent to the freeway were recently plowed. Heavy winds from an approaching thunderstorm blew the loose dirt across the traffic lanes resulting in near zero visibility.
They aren't any more liable for car crashes caused by dust than AL Gore is liable for child predators using the internet.
We have a stretch of road along Lake Michigan where a very similar pile up happened with even more deaths about 7 years ago, along with an accident or two every year caused by low to no visibility from fog. Take Interstate 39 through the vast potato fields in central Wisconsin, and you could have low visibility on any given day if the wind picks up.
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I am sort of surprised the farmers wouldn't be watering their field a bit to cut down on the dust. They just lost a lot of top soil.
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Also falling victim to the chaos was 25 year-old Edgar Ivan Medina Vargas of Iowa City, Iowa. Vargas was killed when his GMC pickup was smashed between the trailer of a stopped semi and a trailer-less semi, driven by his father, who had been following him.
Not pertinent to the original question, but this jumped out at me. That must be terrible for the father.
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One suspects that family will have some tough Christmases ahead of them. =(
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I am sort of surprised the farmers wouldn't be watering their field a bit to cut down on the dust. They just lost a lot of top soil.
With what ???
This was in AZ, remember ;/
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“What we want you to do is pull off the road altogether and turn off your lights,”
Emphasis mine. Why do they want people to turn off their lights? Wouldn't that make it even harder for other people to see them in the reduced-visibility area?
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Emphasis mine. Why do they want people to turn off their lights? Wouldn't that make it even harder for other people to see them in the reduced-visibility area?
If you leave your lights on, people see your taillights, think you are still driving and highway speed, and smash into your trunk. The advice is to pull as far off the road as possible then turn your lights off so people will not think you are still driving.
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If you leave your lights on, people see your taillights, think you are still driving and highway speed, and smash into your trunk. The advice is to pull as far off the road as possible then turn your lights off so people will not think you are still driving.
Oh, I see. That makes sense. Thanks.
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If you leave your lights on, people see your taillights, think you are still driving and highway speed, and smash into your trunk. The advice is to pull as far off the road as possible then turn your lights off so people will not think you are still driving.
Wouldn't hazard lights accomplish this purpose?
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Wouldn't hazard lights accomplish this purpose?
A lot of people put their hazards on when driving slowly. So they might rear end you at a lower speed... ;)
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I think a farmer-originated dust storm is no different than a haboob.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haboob
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fb%2Fbe%2FHaboob2.jpg&hash=e619a5efc4bd2e2412ee5e9635d035503dc6b5e3)
These things just happen. The rules are, you turn your standard lights off, keep the parking lights on, and either pull over or continue very slowly, depending on visibility.
If we start assigning liability to a farmer in the middle of nowhere for poor defensive driving techniques of other people, then we're not going to have any food.
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No, farmers shouldn't have any liability.
Anyone who'se driven this stretch of I-10 should read the signs warning of limited visibility from the edge of the phoenix metro area all the way to Tucson.
Anyone thats' ever driven it also knows that dust storms just don't come out of nowhere. YOu can see the cloud at least a few miles away before you hit it. If you don't slow down due to the impeeded visibility, the liability is all yours for being a complete moron.
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dupe
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I was kind of asking the liability question tongue in cheek. We must not have any die hard liberals on here because they blame everything on someone else and make victims out of everyone.
I do feel sad over the father pushing his son's vehicle under a semi. Coming back from Texas while driving at night, I saw a tow truck trying to pull a small car out from under the rear of a semi. The semi was apparently parked on the shoulder and the car went under at a high speed judging from the fact it was under all the way to the back seat. There were no ambulances or fire trucks, just two HP cars and the tow truck operator.
It sure put me on the alert that night. =(
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They aren't any more liable for car crashes caused by dust than AL Gore is liable for child predators using the internet.
We have a stretch of road along Lake Michigan where a very similar pile up happened with even more deaths about 7 years ago, along with an accident or two every year caused by low to no visibility from fog. Take Interstate 39 through the vast potato fields in central Wisconsin, and you could have low visibility on any given day if the wind picks up.
Are you talking about the stretch between the 90/94 gitoff (that's trucker talk 10-4!) and Plover? I used to travel that way A LOT (you guessed it, hauling potatoes) and it sure has some wicked nasty crosswinds. It's also where I remember a large share of the windbreaks between the fields being torn out in the mid to late '90's and thinking to myself..."It seems rather foolish to be ripping up the windbreaks in a place where it's so windy most of the time".
I've had a 53' trailer get sideways on me there on a dry road.
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I've had a 53' trailer get sideways on me there on a dry road.
I'd need a clean set of drawers after that.
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I was kind of asking the liability question tongue in cheek. We must not have any die hard liberals on here because they blame everything on someone else and make victims out of everyone.
I think they should just sue God. He has deep pockets according to what I'm told.
Might have trouble serving the papers, though ... =|
I do feel sad over the father pushing his son's vehicle under a semi. Coming back from Texas while driving at night, I saw a tow truck trying to pull a small car out from under the rear of a semi. The semi was apparently parked on the shoulder and the car went under at a high speed judging from the fact it was under all the way to the back seat. There were no ambulances or fire trucks, just two HP cars and the tow truck operator.
It sure put me on the alert that night. =(
Did I show you the picture on my bulletin board of our Colorado friends' niece, who crossed the line with her S-10 and went under a semi-trailer? She was twenty - and when she was 6 months old I used to hold her in the cafe while while her mom was busy :(
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I'd need a clean set of drawers after that.
The pucker factor was quite high indeed. :O =D
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Once hit a swarm of katy-dids going about 60 pulling a horse trailer. Had to pull over RIGHT NOW and stop. Completely blind in about 5 seconds. Scared me to death. Took 30 minutes to clean a 8" square so I could see to drive. Drove very slowly with flashers on for about 20 miles till I could get to a gas station where I could wash them buggers off. Took about an hour to clean off and you could still see markes on the windshield. Some one should look into making glue out of them suckers cause they sure do stick! :mad: =D If you can't see you shouldn't be driving!
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Are you talking about the stretch between the 90/94 gitoff (that's trucker talk 10-4!) and Plover? I used to travel that way A LOT (you guessed it, hauling potatoes) and it sure has some wicked nasty crosswinds. It's also where I remember a large share of the windbreaks between the fields being torn out in the mid to late '90's and thinking to myself..."It seems rather foolish to be ripping up the windbreaks in a place where it's so windy most of the time".
Yep, Plainfield to Plover. That stretch is extra fun in winter with blowing/drifting snow. :O
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Yep, Plainfield to Plover. That stretch is extra fun in winter with blowing/drifting snow. :O
Ah, Plainfield, I couldn't remember the name of that town. Thanks.