Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: grey54956 on February 11, 2010, 11:16:05 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_asian_carp_great_lakes (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_asian_carp_great_lakes)
Feds pass on surest solution to Asian carp advance
AP
By JOHN FLESHER, AP Environmental Writer John Flesher, Ap Environmental Writer – Thu Feb 11, 6:21 am ET
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. – With marauding Asian carp on the Great Lakes' doorstep, the federal government has crafted a $78.5 million battle plan that offers no assurance of thwarting an invasion and doesn't use the most promising weapon available to fight it off.
The surest way to prevent the huge, hungry carp from gaining a foothold in the lakes and threatening their $7 billion fishing industry is to sever the link between Lake Michigan and the Mississippi River basin, created by engineers in Chicago more than a century ago.
The strategy released by the Obama administration this week agrees only to conduct a long-range study of that idea, which could take years. The government also refuses to shut down two navigational locks on Chicago waterways that could provide an easy pathway for the carp into the lakes, although it promises to consider opening them less often.
Instead, the plan outlines two dozen other steps, from strengthening an electric barrier designed to block the carp's advance to using nets or poisons to nab fish that make it through. That's an expensive gamble that may not keep enough carp out of the lakes to prevent an infestation.
"We're spending close to $80 million just for a short-term deterrent," said Joel Brammeier, president of the Alliance for the Great Lakes, an environmental group. "We need to stop pushing money toward temporary solutions and get everyone on track toward investing in one that works for good — and that means absolute physical separation."
To be fair, the solution environmentalists prefer — cutting ties between the lakes and the Mississippi — would mean reconfiguring some 70 miles of canals and rivers. That's a massive undertaking that could not happen quickly and is fervently opposed by barge operators who move millions of tons of commodities through the Chicago locks each year.
Bighead and silver carp — both native to Asia — have been migrating toward the lakes since escaping from Deep South fish ponds and sewage treatment plants in the 1970s. The biggest can reach 100 pounds and 4 feet long, consuming up to 40 percent of their body weight daily in plankton, the base of the aquatic food chain. Once established in the lakes, the carp could starve out the prey fish on which popular species such as salmon and whitefish depend.
The carp have already infested parts of the Mississippi and Illinois rivers, driving away many native fish. Silver carp are known to hurtle from the water at the sound of passing motors and slam into boaters with bone-breaking force.
While scientists differ on whether the carp would thrive in the Great Lakes, which are colder, deeper and ecologically different than rivers, many say the risk is too great to take any chances.
"None of us know for certain what their impact would be," University of Notre Dame biologist David Lodge told a House subcommittee this week. "There's only one way to find out, and I don't think any of us want that."
Pulled in different directions by the fishing and the barge industries, and politicians in Illinois and those from the other Great Lakes states, the Obama administration says the only realistic approach is to confront the carp on multiple fronts instead of taking the bolder step of severing Lake Michigan from the Mississippi basin.
"We cannot fight biology with engineering alone," Cameron Davis, the Environmental Protection Agency's spokesman on the issue, told the congressional panel.
Yet the federal plan is heavy on technological innovations. Among them: barriers using sound, strobe lights and bubble curtains to repel carp and biological controls to prevent them from reproducing. They're promising measures — but still on the drawing board.
Environmentalists and Great Lakes governors outside of Illinois who want to close the Chicago locks claim it's the best short-term option. But it isn't a foolproof solution, as young carp might still be able to slip through the leaky structures. The Chicago waterways also have other access points to Lake Michigan.
Army Corps of Engineers officials are putting their faith in a two-tiered electric barrier in the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal about 25 miles from Lake Michigan, to which they will add a third section this year. It emits pulses to scare off the carp or knock them unconscious if they don't turn back. No carp have been found above the barrier, although biologists have detected their DNA in numerous spots past it and even within the lake itself.
"While we're all talking," Lodge said, "the fish are swimming."
That almost certainly means at least some carp have eluded the device and reached the lake. The government's plan aims to keep their number low enough to prevent them from breeding. The problem is that no one knows how many carp need to make it into the lake to establish a foothold that can't be turned back.
"This is a lot of money to pile into stopgap measures," said Phil Moy, a University of Wisconsin Sea Grant researcher. "It may do some good in the short term, but in the long term it's not going to solve the problem of invasive species on both sides of the divide. Ecological separation has to happen for this to be successful."
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AP Environmental Writer John Flesher has covered the Great Lakes since 1989.
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Huzzah! When faced with a potential ecological nightmare, President Zero and his pack of trolls choose to do nothing. Okay, they don't really choose to do nothing, they choose to 'study' the problem further, which is worse than nothing. It means that while they accomplish nothing, they will spend vast amounts of money to do it, while letting the approaching disaster fully manifest, at which time they will announce that it is too late, and that nothing could have been done anyway.
That is because they are clueless buffoons. Our leaders are worse than useless, they are part of the problem.
This isn't like global warming folks. Should asian carp establish a foothold in the great lakes, it will make zebra mussels look like honored guests at a tea party. We already know that invasive species are trouble for hunters, fishermen, and natural resource dependent industries. Maybe we shouldn't let this one get out of hand.
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Maybe we should take some advice from the Aussie's and solve this problem with dynamite? >:D
Seems like it'd be fun anyway.
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Illinois tried a mass kill. They killed tens of thousands of game fish, and one carp.
Are the bowhunters still killing them along the Illinois River?
Why not just offer a bounty on the carp?
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Utah Lake here has a huge problem with carp; they've been trying to get rid of them for years. They won't do poison due to the presence of an endangered fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_sucker) found only in that lake. They've removed 2.5 million lbs of carp since 2008, and as far as I've heard the carp are keeping up just fine.
I wish they could get rid of them. The lake would be a great fishing and recreation destination if it weren't for the carp. They carp eat all the vegetation, removing food for other fish (including eating the other fish's young) and in the process eliminate the natural cleanser for natural water bodies. So the water gets pretty dirty and despite being fairly large isn't too popular a boating destination.
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Illinois tried a mass kill. They killed tens of thousands of game fish, and one carp.
California had a similar problem in a lake near Portola. Not carp, but some other invasive fish. They poisoned the lake, which killed everything except the invaders. Ruined what had been an excellent fishing venue.
Why not just offer a bounty on the carp?
Indeed. Just say "no license and no limit" and let the sportsmen have at them. If it's one thing the upper Midwest has lots of, it's sport fishermen.
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I would totally learn to bow-fish if I didn't have to worry about seasons, permits, catch limits and humane kills.
That's a great idea. Just let everyone have at 'em. Call 'em river buffalo and ask for a return of the great white hunters. We drove one species to near extinction with free-market-capitalism, I'm sure we could do it again.
Even better: fishing gear for elimination of asian carp is tax deductible. >:D
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Realistically, the only option to save the Great Lakes is to close the locks.
I wouldn't mind trying carp skeet though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE)
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So, does anyone know WHY they're not closing the locks? Is this a favor to Illinois, or what? I keep hearing on the radio that they're not gonna do it, but no satisfactory
reason excuse why not.
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So, does anyone know WHY they're not closing the locks? Is this a favor to Illinois, or what? I keep hearing on the radio that they're not gonna do it, but no satisfactory reason excuse why not.
Money.
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That's a great idea. Just let everyone have at 'em. Call 'em river buffalo and ask for a return of the great white hunters. We drove one species to near extinction with free-market-capitalism, I'm sure we could do it again.
I believe the word you're looking for is:
EXTERMINATUS.
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Exterminatus would require virus bombing, vortex charges, or cyclonic torpedoes. I'm afraid we don't have any of those available. Besides, using such measures on Holy Terra wouldn't be good.
I would prefer that they just close the locks. However, this is an impossibility, as the Chicago political machine has it's hand so far up a certain meat puppet's @$$ that there's no chance that anything will get done. It's all about the money.
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Putting an open, no limit season would do little to stop these vermin. The only possible solution is an absolute, physical barrier. IIRC, I read that closing the locks is being resisted by guess who(?) because it would cause a raise the price of coal for Chicago.
Take a look at this video, they show the carp starting at about 1 minute but, watch till the end to really see what were up against.
Oops! Forgot the video! Here's a consolation prize which makes the point pretty well
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi163.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft286%2FSergeant_Bob%2Fcarp-278x225.jpg&hash=47a5450d2104006bc1f4c4f333bcd72638a7da14)
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theres a guy who shoots em on the fly with a bow
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Why not just offer a bounty on the carp?
Its being worked on. I talked with a guy that is building a portable device that you put fish in one end and out the other end is fish meal. His problem is being able to get enough fish to feed it, so he and others are trying to convince states to offer bounties on invasive species fish to supply his device.
Fish meal is sold so cheap that he couldn't pay people for fish and make a profit.
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That's a great frakkin idea! Private enterprise can almost always come up with better solutions than government.
Call me a proud capitalist.
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and what is neat about it is the device was designed to take care of carcasses of disease poulty and other livestock if something like Madcow or bird flu happened in the US.
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part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7zkTnQVaM
part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChwJiKKBdA
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A recent History channel "Life After People" episode detailed the problem of this carp. Once they got passed the locks, they found themselves unable to take over the lake.
Another invasive species, the Sea Lamprey, cut 'em down to size.
Hmmmmm. Wonder if it could really happen?
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Apparently, the $1.5 billion annual revenue of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal's iron ore and other cargo is more important than the $7 billion dollar annual revenue of the fishing industry in the rest of the Great Lakes…
Closing the Chicago locks would keep out the carp, save the fishing industry, and cause all shipping that moves through Chicago's locks to find other, presumably more expensive, routes…
I'm all for a representative republic over a majority rules democracy, but shouldn't the fact that Michigan has 4,200 miles of the Great Lake's 10,500 miles of coastline count for something compared to the 63 miles of Illinois coastline along Lake Michigan alone? Seriously, we have 40% of the Great Lakes lapping against our shores, they have a statistical blip...
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A recent History channel "Life After People" episode detailed the problem of this carp. Once they got passed the locks, they found themselves unable to take over the lake.
Another invasive species, the Sea Lamprey, cut 'em down to size.
Hmmmmm. Wonder if it could really happen?
Probably could, as millions are spent every year on lamprey control. However, either way the Great Lakes are farked.
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Are Asian carp edible?
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Are Asian carp edible?
Whether they are edible is immaterial. They are not marketable.
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Whether they are edible is immaterial. They are not marketable.
I thought I read a newspaper article about a market for them, something about canning? Guys went out early in the day and caught several tons worth. It's been awhile since I read the article.
Yes, here's the article. Doesn't look like they are canning them, just trying to sell to ethnic and foreign markets.
http://www.lrd.usace.army.mil/Announcements/index.cfm?id=2940&pge_id=0&pge_prg_id=0 (http://www.lrd.usace.army.mil/Announcements/index.cfm?id=2940&pge_id=0&pge_prg_id=0)
Watson, on the other hand, wants to give DNR up to $3 million to examine the merits of mass commercial harvesting of Asian carp.
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Realistically, the only option to save the Great Lakes is to close the locks.
I wouldn't mind trying carp skeet though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE)
That's friggin bizarre.
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Apparently, the $1.5 billion annual revenue of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal's iron ore and other cargo is more important than the $7 billion dollar annual revenue of the fishing industry in the rest of the Great Lakes…
Closing the Chicago locks would keep out the carp, save the fishing industry, and cause all shipping that moves through Chicago's locks to find other, presumably more expensive, routes…
I'm all for a representative republic over a majority rules democracy, but shouldn't the fact that Michigan has 4,200 miles of the Great Lake's 10,500 miles of coastline count for something compared to the 63 miles of Illinois coastline along Lake Michigan alone? Seriously, we have 40% of the Great Lakes lapping against our shores, they have a statistical blip...
From what I understand there's also the issue that Chicago and quite a bit of Northeastern Illinois draws it drinking water from Lake Michigan. Re-reversing the flow of the Chicago river could threaten that drinking water source.
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Obviously since they are Asian carp he doesn't want to look like he is racialy insensitive :facepalm:
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Obviously since they are Asian carp he doesn't want to look like he is racialy insensitive :facepalm:
He is bowing to asian carp pressure?
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He is bowing to asian carp pressure?
I wonder how long he can hold his breath?