Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Desertdog on March 10, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
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Government regulations to fix a problem seems to only make the problem worse.
Airlines Will Cancel Flights to Avoid Risk of Fines for Delays
By ELLEN GOLDBERG
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Airlines-Threaten-to-Cancel-Flights-Before-Paying-Fines-for-Delays-87181947.html
Passengers may soon be seeing more cancellations on airport departure boards.
Several airlines, including Fort Worth-based American and Houston-based Continental, say they will cancel flights rather than risk paying stiff penalties for delaying passengers on the runway.
Continental's CEO told investors Tuesday that the airline will opt to cancel flights rather than chance being fined.
Aviation consultant Denny Kelly expects other airlines to follow suit.
“I think all of them will cancel flights,” he said. “They'll do it partially because they think they are going to punish passengers, and if they punish them, someone will get this legislation removed.”
Under new federal guidelines that take effect next month, airlines can be fined up to $27,500 per passenger if a plane is stuck on the tarmac for longer than three hours.
“How can they say there is nothing wrong with having someone sit on a seat and run out of water and everything and sit on there for three, four, five hours? That's ridiculous,” Kelly said.
With the new fines, a delayed MD-80 could cost American Airlines close to $4 million, and a fine for a full 757 could cost more than $5 million.
“It's unavoidable that more flights will be canceled to avoid fines,” said American Airlines spokesman Steve Schlachter. “It's one of the unintended consequences of a bill that has no flexibility.”
A spokesman for the U.S. Transportation Department said airlines can avoid fines by doing a better job of scheduling flights and crews.
"Carriers have it within their power to schedule their flights more realistically, to have spare aircraft and crews available to avoid cancellations" and to rebook passengers when there are cancellations, said Bill Mosley, a department spokesman.
Frequent flier Dave Wooldridge said he plans to punish airlines that cancel flights by taking his business elsewhere.
“I won't fly that airline again,” he said. “They risk losing a lot of people if that's what they become known for, canceling flights.”
Traveler Andrea Ramirez also didn't agree with the airlines' tactic.
“I would definitely rather be late than not go at all,” Ramirez said. “That's for sure.”
The fines are scheduled to take effect April 29
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Two words politicians are unable to understand:
"Unintended consquences"
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Two words politicians are unable to understand:
"Unintended consquences"
Oh, I think they understand it for many cases.
In fact, I think they use it to their advantage...every step towards utter idiocy and more government control in ANYTHING is a win for them.
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Oh, I think they understand it for many cases.
In fact, I think they use it to their advantage...every step towards utter idiocy and more government control in ANYTHING is a win for them.
The part that makes me most angry is that we subsidize these airlines on a regular basis. How many times have we bailed them out in their entire history? Open the domestic market to foreign carriers, stop bailing out the airlines, and let them consolidate through bankruptcy/mergers.
I'm not overly fond of companies that use my own money in order to spit in my face.
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I know I'm not very smart, so can someone tell me why, if they are aware the flight will be delayed, they don't announce the delay before boarding? Seems like the fine only kicks in when the passengers are effectively imprisoned in the aircraft for absurdly long periods.
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Open the domestic market to foreign carriers, stop bailing out the airlines, and let them consolidate through bankruptcy/mergers.
By all means, open the market to foreign carriers. It might work. In fact it might work so well that US carriers would go out of business. That is fine in a free market, and I have no problem with that. What might be a sticking point is that the US federal government uses the US airlines as a supplemental troop carrier in times of need. Having to rely on foreign carriers might not work too well in that case. Besides, outsourcing is so popular in the US. =D
As to bailouts, I also oppose them. The last big bailout was just after 9-11. The primary reason for that one was because the federal government forced the airlines to stop flying for several days, which would have led to many bankruptcies had there not been a bailout.
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I know I'm not very smart, so can someone tell me why, if they are aware the flight will be delayed, they don't announce the delay before boarding? Seems like the fine only kicks in when the passengers are effectively imprisoned in the aircraft for absurdly long periods.
Announcing before boarding gives passengers an opportunity to go yell at their travel agent and make him find them a new carrier.
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Announcing before boarding gives passengers an opportunity to go yell at their travel agent and make him find them a new carrier.
Because canceling the flight doesn't do that?
Alright, I'll wait and see what 320 has to say on the matter before I get all worked up about it. =)
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Don't get SWMBO started on this topic. She spent close to eight hours on a plane in Houston last year that was not allowed to go to the gate after landing. Weather-related issues, supposedly. But that does not explain all the other planes that landed and taxied up to their gates without difficulty during that same period.
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I know I'm not very smart, so can someone tell me why, if they are aware the flight will be delayed, they don't announce the delay before boarding? Seems like the fine only kicks in when the passengers are effectively imprisoned in the aircraft for absurdly long periods.
We do announce delays. If the delay is known before departure time, we do announce the delay. There is no purpose served in not announcing the delay. Known delays include such things as weather, late arriving aircraft, late crew, mechanical issues, security problems at the airport, and a delay in getting fuel to the aircraft.
The only time that people are "imprisoned in the aircraft for absurdly long periods" is when unforeseen circumstances arise that are beyond control of the airline. That doesn't happen very often. Normally, all the participants (FAA, ATC, airline, pilots, gate agents, flight attendants, ground crew, etc) can predict delays due to weather, traffic congestion, and other issues. Sometimes, delays happen regardless of preparation.
Since New York's JFK is infamous for delays, I'll use them as an example. I've actually experienced this scenario at JFK, but it is combined with another experience I had at BOS.
APS Airways flight 1911 to Los Angeles is at the gate after having all the customers boarded on time and the flight is ready for pushback. There are no delays known to the APS captain, the APS dispatcher, or to ATC. So, the flight leaves the gate on time.
Just an aside, but an on-time departure is when the parking break is released before scheduled departure time, which means the flight has "blocked out," not when the plane takes off.
Back to the story... So, the flight leaves on time from the gate and gets clearance to taxi to runway 13R at JFK. Now, this time of day at JFK is very busy. There is a large international flight push, as well as lots of domestic traffic. The airline flight schedulers know this is a busy time of day, as do the dispatcher and pilots, so everyone is prepared for a long taxi. The flight block time is padded to deal with the predicted long taxi, so the flight doesn't routinely arrive late. Normally, this works out well and the flight arrives on time, which is defined by the DOT as within 14 minutes of scheduled arrival time.
So, the plane taxis out towards runway 13R at JFK. After getting in the congo line, the pilots determine that the taxi time to the runway before they get to takeoff is 1 hour. All is normal. About 30 minutes into the taxi, a small front that has been approaching the airport causes the wind to shift enough that runway 13R is no longer useable for takeoff. Now, runway 31L (the opposite end of the same pavement) must be used. So, ground control at JFK freezes all ground movement so they can turn the airport around. While ground control is working on that, the tower is trying to land a bunch of planes before the runway switch happens. During this process, 30 minutes elapse.
APS 1911 has been off the gate for 1 hour, but is still 30 minutes from takeoff.
Meanwhile, the captain and first officer are watching their fuel quantity burn down knowing that they have a minimum takeoff amount that they are getting close to. As APS1911 approaches the runway, a CompeteAir flight needs to return to the gate due to a mechanical issue, but because of taxiway congestion, the CompeteAir flight can't really move out of the way which causes more delays for everyone at JFK.
Finally, after 2 hours from leaving the gate, APS1911 is first in line for takeoff. They have enough fuel, both engines are running and all is right. Until ATC stops all departures. No one knows why just yet, as the controllers at JFK aren't volunteering any information.
15 minutes pass.
The JFK controllers announce that all west bound traffic is stopped due to a radar outage in Denver center. So, since APS1911 is not going anywhere, but is blocking access to the runway, they must be resequenced along with others into the taxi line.
2 hours 15 minutes have passed since leaving the gate.
After resequencing, APS1911 is once again 30 minutes from takeoff, if they are allowed to go when their turn comes up. So, that means that they can take off 2 hours and 45 minutes after leaving the gate, if nothing else changes. Now they are starting to worry about fuel, the 3 hour rule, duty time, gate availablity in JFK should they need to go back, the customers in the plane who are beyond antsy, etc.
The flight crew has been communicating with the gate crew at JFK attempting to get gate space to return to if needed, but none is available due to other aircraft returning to the gates and aircraft that are prevented from leaving the gates due to the now known delays. A gate will be vailable in 30 minutes.
So, they stay in line hoping to depart before three hours pass.
At block out +2:58, APS1911 is once again first in line and ready for takeoff. JFK tower says "APS1911, expect a 5 minute delay due to spacing on your route." Uh-oh. That means the flight must return to the gate, by law, to allow customers to deplane. That will also mean the flight will be put in the back of the line when it comes back out, and the plane will need to be refueled. A long enough delay could mean that the pilots are no longer legal to complete the trip.
So, as the captain of APS1911 what would you do? If you were in charge of cancelling the APS flight what would you do? If you were a customer on the flight what would you want to happen?
I know it sounds far fetched, but I've done it several times.
(edited for clarity)
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So, as the captain of APS1911 what would you do? If you were in charge of cancelling the APS flight what would you do? If you were a customer on the flight what would you want to happen?
As a customer, what I always do in such a situation: read another chapter. Repeat as needed.
As the cancellation authority, I would fine AlGor for not predicting the weather correctly.
As the captain, I would wonder if I could sneak another cup of coffee. =D
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FYI, the airlines all intentionally overschedule at high demand times. At some airports, there may be two dozen aircraft with the same departure time. Its physically impossible for that many aircraft to launch at once. Add weather, closures, and equipment outages, and delays ripple through the system quite quickly.
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Don't get SWMBO started on this topic. She spent close to eight hours on a plane in Houston last year that was not allowed to go to the gate after landing. Weather-related issues, supposedly. But that does not explain all the other planes that landed and taxied up to their gates without difficulty during that same period.
Cell phone call to 911?
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Cell phone call to 911?
Fine for using a cell phone on an airplane?
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Fine for using a cell phone on an airplane?
You can use the phone when the aircraft is on the ground, prior to departure.
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You can use the phone when the aircraft is on the ground, prior to departure.
Yep, and during ground delays I often allow customers to use phones and laptops while we wait in the departure line. Nothing illegal about it at all.
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Yep, and during ground delays I often allow customers to use phones and laptops while we wait in the departure line. Nothing illegal about it at all.
Wife and I were at DCA waiting to go to MKE maybe two years ago, summer. Thunderstorms around the airport. We got to number one, had been told not to use the phones, and then a growing cell shut down the departure corridor for a little bit. Pilot told us we could get back on the cell phones, and then we were told to turn them off just before we got clearance.
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anytime the feds help it goes to hell
in a different field we have in this area "the chesapeake bay act."
when we built houses on those tiny lil waterfront lots we would fudge a lil on the letter of that law vis a vis how close to the house we put the septic or sometimes how close to one edge of the lot or the other and by doing that we could save a few of the older trees. no longer the feds cracked down on the counties so the inspectors enforce to the letter of the law. so now we clear cut all the lots. in order to save the enviroment
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Or how 4473s went from two pages to three after the "Paperwork Reduction Act." ;/
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Today might be a day for the "3 hour rule."
Check out the weather in Ft Lauderdale, FL.
Living the dream!
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It seems to me that they passed these rules partly because customers have little other legal recourse other than complain to their congress-critter.
“I would definitely rather be late than not go at all,” Ramirez said. “That's for sure.”
On the other hand, if the flight got canceled, you would have the ability to go find another flight.
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So they will start fining them for canceled flights.
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Yep. Then when the airlines start getting fined out of business, the goobermint will step in a la GM. Fly Government Airlines today!