Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: zxcvbob on March 28, 2010, 10:24:36 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/28/militia.arrests/index.html?hpt=T1
The interesting thing is, there are no details at all. Just "Christians with guns, Oh No!" hand wringing.
[tinfoil]
Maybe the group actually is dangerous and doing something very illegal, but isn't the story a little premature? Or is innuendo all we need now for a news story?
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The fact that a raid was made is enough to make it news, the question is what was the raid made for? Being a Christian militia?
Wonder if they are related at all to these people
http://www.hutterites.org/
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I really doubt that they are Hutterites.
Hutterites are of the Anabaptist tradition (like the Amish) and therefore are typically pacifists.
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It's starting. I knew all this "Hate against democrats in congress" was a precursor to things like this. We, the gun culture, are being setup.
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It's starting. I knew all this "Hate against democrats in congress" was a precursor to things like this. We, the gun culture, are being setup.
Don't be too quick to identify "us" with the people being raided. It's possible they really were planning something unpleasant.
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From the article:
Lackomar called the Hutaree a "religious militant group" with about a dozen members, who scattered as news of the raids spread over the weekend.
Are "the Hutaree" the same as the Hutterites? I'm not familiar with either term.
And yeah, I agree with Battle Monkey. A setup is likely underway. Need to keep a close eye on this. I would have expected the bogeymen to be Tea Partiers, not "Christina militias", but maybe the two will be linked somehow.
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Some web pages with info on Hutterites
http://www.hutterites.org/HutteriteHistory/
http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/Society/Hutter.html
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/hutterite_colonies.html
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The Michigan Militia is apparently not rushing to their defense.
Mike Lackomar, of Michiganmilitia.com, said both The Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia and the Michiganmilitia.com were not a part of the raid.
Lackomar said he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.
"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.
Lackomar said he was told there were five arrests Saturday and another five early Sunday. The FBI declined to comment.
One of the Hutaree members called a Michigan militia leader for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who is of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help. That Michigan militia leader is now working with federal officials to provide information on the Hutaree member for the investigation, Lackomar said Sunday.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=#ixzz0jX0mneFJ
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Wonder if they are related at all to these people
Related to Hutterites, I'm not saying they are Hutterites. The similarity of the names and the Christian angle just makes me wonder if there is a connection between them. Of course in todays world "Christian", "militia", "raid", and "FBI" are all you need to sell some news.
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The Michigan Militia is apparently not rushing to their defense.
Off topic but have you guys ever looked at the Michigan Militia MySpace page?
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It not to far down the road from "Christian Militia" to "Right Wing Jesus Loving Tea Party to Center Right Gun Owner. The distance is usually measured in 4-8 year increments.
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Hello gentlemen,
I am the Wayne County Team Leader of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia. While we are not officially "upper management" of the Michigan Militia, we are the owners of Michiganmilitia.com and we set the standards by which all other state units voluntarily abide.
Despite the media's use of the word "militia", not a single member of the Michigan Militia was a target of this raid.
The Hutaree, who were raided, are a self-proclaimed Army of God. They are a secretive, separatist Christian group who are "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive". You can view their website at www.hutaree.com . The information I currently have is that they have been manufacturing and selling pipe bombs, as well as threatening Muslims. We will see how these allegations play out over the nest several days.
Every single unit of the Michigan Militia steers clear of them.
I woke up to this story, and have been on the phone all day with other unit leaders, as well as the media to clear things up. Interviews from our media liaison (also our Livingston County Leader) have already aired on the local news, both on the radio and television. You can view the latest video here: http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/22981973/index.html
We've worked hard to create and build this organization. We're not about to let a bunch of religious nuts ruin what we have.
In the mean time, I want everyone here to know that the Michigan Militia is truly a Constitutional citizens' militia, and that we would never condone harming innocent Americans. I will be happy to answer any questions any of you may have. If you would like to speak to me on the phone tomorrow (Monday), send me a PM and I will accomodate you.
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. . . The information I currently have is that they have been manufacturing and selling pipe bombs, as well as threatening Muslims . . .
Aside from the sheer idiocy of buying IEDs from some guys turning them out in their garage (which is a good way to remove yourself from the gene pool) I haven't heard about a pipe bomb going off anywhere in the upper Midwest recently . . . what happened, did these geniuses advertise on the Internet and make their first sale to an undercover cop?
If there's something here, more details will come out in due course . . . if it's much ado about nothing, the story will simply fade, but the "BAD MILITIA" label will linger in the public's mind.
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but the "BAD MILITIA" label will linger in the public's mind.
Some people will think that no matter what. Plenty of people DO think for themselves though, and by getting our faces and message on the news, we can reach them.
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Interesting (but not unexpected) development this morning. We've received some threats via email for speaking out against the Hutaree on the news.
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I've always wondered why such groups and people can't just train, prepare, and stay under the radar. I would even go as far as to ask why can't they just not break the law, but we all know laws can change and can range anywhere from sensible to tyrannical. But, dare I bring this up, even Randy Weaver was selling NFA shotguns. I mean seriously. Can't they just keep a low profile, keep the law breaking to a minimum or at least don't be brazen and overzealous about it, and just generally not be openly crazy sounding? Why pipe bombs? Why selling restricted guns? Why go out of your way too look and act in an abnormal way and openly commit crimes? Does that really help the cause?
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Interesting (but not unexpected) development this morning. We've received some threats via email for speaking out against the Hutaree on the news.
One of the Hutaree members called a Michigan militia leader for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who is of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help.
Christian fundamentalist group wanting to kill Islamic folks calls guy "of Islamic decent" for help. Buddies threaten to kill group containing person(s) of Islamic descent, because said group containing person(s) of Islamic descent refused to help because Christian fundamentalists wanted to kill person(s) of Islamic descent. Dude, you couldn't make stuff like this up.
=D
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Something about this just does not sit right with me. I have no doubt these people are crazy as a seven year itch. But that is not illegal (yet). So far, the only story that I have read or seen with any descriptions of charges was the one linked in this post from Detroit. (Thanks Declaration!)
If there were folks in this group selling pipe bombs, fine arrest them. But why is the news media focusing on the group rather than the individuals selling the bombs? If this was ELF, would the media be talking about arresting ELF or would they be talking about arresting a few people that happened to be members of ELF?
I am not going to try and defend these guys, because I do not know any more about it than what I have seen in 3-4 news stories. But it just seems like there is a lot more to to the story. ???
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But, dare I bring this up, even Randy Weaver was selling NFA shotgun
Wasn't he found not guilty?
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Oh, *expletive deleted*it.
The Hutaree were plotting to murder a police officer, then ambush the officer's funeral with firearms and IEDs.
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Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD
Justin Elliott | March 29, 2010, 10:04AM
Nine members of the Christian militia group Hutaree have been indicted on multiple charges involving an alleged plot to attack police, including seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, the U.S. Attorney in Michigan announced this morning.
"Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence," according to the government's press release, which you can read in full below.
The indictment describes an alleged plot that seems inspired by weapons more associated with urban warfare in Iraq than with rural Michigan.
The Hutaree members allegedly "planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction."
Hutaree's Web site features videos of heavily armed members training in the woods, but seems more preoccupied with battling the Antichrist than the government.
In one late 2008 post on the group's forum page, a member writes that "ATF searching local FFL for info on Hutaree gun purchases. All members are advised to be locked and loaded, things may turn hot real quick here."
The authorities say that all but one of the nine defendants are in custody. The ninth, Joshua Stone, is described as a fugitive.
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The Hutaree were plotting to murder a police officer, then ambush the officer's funeral with firearms and IEDs.
Jebus, what's wrong with those people?
Everyone still think this is a setup and the democratz are going to round up all republicans into re-education camps? Its funny how similar everyone is ever though they think they polar opposites. On Dem boards form 00 - 08 it was all Bush did 9/11, Republicans are setting up internment camps!! They have secret prisons!!!
Two years later its completely reverse. Damn, same paranoia here, just a different flavor a couple of years later.
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A little paranoia is a good thing -- it keeps you alert. But the operative word is "little". Some poeple go all crazy with it.
The nebulousness of the actual charges still worries me a little. "A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, indicted six Michigan residents, two Ohioans and an Indianan on the conspiracy charges, plus attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence"
What law does Teaching the Use of Explosive Materials violate, and how does it pass 1st Amendment muster? All the other charges listed could be derived from that one. With the details given in a previous post this morning, what's wrong with just Conspiracy to Commit Murder? Or is the fact that it was directed at agents of the state somehow make it worse than if they were trying to murder you or me?
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Here we go again, Focks Nooz is grouping us in with the Hutaree. *sigh*.
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Jebus, what's wrong with those people?
Everyone still think this is a setup and the democratz are going to round up all republicans into re-education camps? Its funny how similar everyone is ever though they think they polar opposites. On Dem boards form 00 - 08 it was all Bush did 9/11, Republicans are setting up internment camps!! They have secret prisons!!!
Two years later its completely reverse. Damn, same paranoia here, just a different flavor a couple of years later.
Folks on teh intarwebz are already trying to link these Hutaree whackos with the Tea Party, with the militia movement, with Republicans, and with conservatism in general.
Quotes from reader comments on the Hutaree story posted on Yahoo:
Arrest the Tea Bag Militia Wingnuts!
Just more republican wackos that dont know what democracy means. Their in the minority yet all they do is talk about democracy. Its the democracy they love so much that has put them in the minority and they can't stand that! LOL
I bet they were inspired by the neocon cheerleader, SarDUH "the retard" Palin. Got caught reloading.
Right there are three people who are eager to use these Hutaree nuts to paint all of us in a false light. I could post more, many many more, but I'm sure you get the point. Now, is it paranoia to acknowledge what's happening right in front of your own eyes?
I expect that once I read the news tonight that I'll find prominent members of the media trying to draw the same false links. I'll look into it in a few hours.
Furthermore, just one week ago I saw members of Congress and the media lie about racism at a Tea Party rally. Saw it with my own two eyes. Now, is that a conspiracy, and does my knowledge of it make me paranoid?
We've all seen a sudden emergence of trumped up news stories about violence against congressmen for voting for the health bill. And while I'm sure that congressmen get threats every day, am I paranoid to notice that the reporting on these events went from nil to front page overnight?
There is an effort to manipulate public opinion underway right now. Does realizing this make me paranoid?
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Sorry. I still don't buy it. Call me paranoid, a little or alot. Don't care. But if these guys are this level of nutters now, they were 3'years ago. And could/should have been arrested then. Nope. This was to supplement the "Right Wing Christian Extremist Report" put out by DHS and that Bull Dod looking idiot heading it. First the report. Then "find something, anything to prove some of the report was right". Saturate
tie media, get the narrative nice and strong. Then a slow push for sensible gun laws, not restrictive, but to "help"
stop things like this. (Nevermind that 10,000 laws exist to do such.)
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The Hutaree are NUTS, and yes they were nuts three years ago.
They've been on our (meaning the Michigan Militia) radar for a long time. I generally don't trust the media or the authorities, but believe me, the Hutaree are capable of doing what is alleged.
Jim Jones was a saint compared to these guys. The only difference is that the Hutaree were caught before anybody was hurt.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, if anyone would like to speak about this over the phone, send me a PM. I'm a high-ranking member of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia. I have had conversations with some of the Hutaree members online and in person over the years. I personally know the Lenawee County Commander who denied them aid when they were on the run. You probably can't get any closer to this story than you can through me.
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Does anyone remember the growing militia movement back in the early/mid 90s?
And does anyone remember the way Clinton managed to deftly manipulate the media and public opinion over the OK City bombing to halt the militia movement in its tracks , despite there being very little legitimate relation between the two?
See any parallels to today?
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The Hutaree were plotting to murder a police officer, then ambush the officer's funeral with firearms and IEDs.
Allegedly ... =|
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Here is an interview with Frank Beckman and Mike Lackomar on AM760 in Detroit, broken down into 2 parts. Sorry for the sketchy audio quality.
SMVM - FRANK BECKMAN ON THE HUTAREE RAID
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNHoG0orSew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuRv5lv3eYU
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Here is the Federal Indictment: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/29/stone.pdf
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Folks on teh intarwebz are already trying to link these Hutaree whackos with the Tea Party, with the militia movement, with Republicans, and with conservatism in general.
Quotes from reader comments on the Hutaree story posted on Yahoo:
Right there are three people who are eager to use these Hutaree nuts to paint all of us in a false light. I could post more, many many more, but I'm sure you get the point. Now, is it paranoia to acknowledge what's happening right in front of your own eyes?
I expect that once I read the news tonight that I'll find prominent members of the media trying to draw the same false links. I'll look into it in a few hours.
Furthermore, just one week ago I saw members of Congress and the media lie about racism at a Tea Party rally. Saw it with my own two eyes. Now, is that a conspiracy, and does my knowledge of it make me paranoid?
We've all seen a sudden emergence of trumped up news stories about violence against congressmen for voting for the health bill. And while I'm sure that congressmen get threats every day, am I paranoid to notice that the reporting on these events went from nil to front page overnight?
There is an effort to manipulate public opinion underway right now. Does realizing this make me paranoid?
Yea, these guys were nuts and don’t seem to be affiliated with the Tea Party or any mainstream conservative movement. People who are linking them together at this point are uninformed, hyperbolic and fear mongering.
However, the people who *immediately* said this is a leftist conspiracy frame-job, or that they are justified in a plan to murder a cop because of the current political situation are just as bad. I hope that is something rational people can see. I hope things like this can get people to take a step back and slow down.
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However, the people who *immediately* said this is a leftist conspiracy frame-job, or that they are justified in a plan to murder a cop because of the current political situation are just as bad. I hope that is something rational people can see. I hope things like this can get people to take a step back and slow down.
Who on here said it was ok to plan and/murder a cop? Who?
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Who on here said it was ok to plan and/murder a cop? Who?
No one?
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I'm as rational as the next guy. But do you see the VOLUME of "Breaking News" coming out today. Anything could be slipped under the radar or under reported. All I'm saying is; after the Right Wing Jesus Loving nuts report and then the same wanting to "recruit" former military and
now this. By all means. Let's not jump to conclusions not in evidence. But there is not much in evidence, as of yet. And if the past is any teacher about democrats, right wing militia threat (made up or real) and guns. We might want to scratch our heads, say hmmm. And watch.
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I'm as rational as the next guy. But do you see the VOLUME of "Breaking News" coming out today. Anything could be slipped under the radar or under reported. All I'm saying is; after the Right Wing Jesus Loving nuts report and then the same wanting to "recruit" former military and
now this. By all means. Let's not jump to conclusions not in evidence. But there is not much in evidence, as of yet. And if the past is any teacher about democrats, right wing militia threat (made up or real) and guns. We might want to scratch our heads, say hmmm. And watch.
News volume looks about normal to me. What is unusual?
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Folks on teh intarwebz are already trying to link these Hutaree whackos with the Tea Party, with the militia movement, with Republicans, and with conservatism in general.
Quotes from reader comments on the Hutaree story posted on Yahoo:
Arrest the Tea Bag Militia Wingnuts!
Just more republican wackos that dont know what democracy means. Their in the minority yet all they do is talk about democracy. Its the democracy they love so much that has put them in the minority and they can't stand that! LOL
I bet they were inspired by the neocon cheerleader, SarDUH "the retard" Palin. Got caught reloading.
Right there are three people who are eager to use these Hutaree nuts to paint all of us in a false light. I could post more, many many more, but I'm sure you get the point. Now, is it paranoia to acknowledge what's happening right in front of your own eyes?
I expect that once I read the news tonight that I'll find prominent members of the media trying to draw the same false links. I'll look into it in a few hours.
I'm sure you already know this, but most of the internet is populated by idiots (current forums excluded :P). Anecdotal evidence that some anonymous users posted on a left wing message board that this militia is linked to the Tea Party movement is inconsequential. If news casters starts claiming there is a link between this militia and the tea party movement they better hope there is
proof or else someone would call them on it. Wouldn't Rush, Hannity, or someone else at Fox call B.S. on MSM if they tried that?
Suppose even *IF* one of these Hutaree members went to a Tea Party Rally does it really matter? I know the some people will try and paint all Tea Partier's as crazies but the reality is their just protesters. I don't know how to combat the "crazy label" aside from maintaining the peacefulness already displayed at the protests, and possibly trying to get more air time on Fox News and any other media shows to actually air their grievances with the Gov.
Furthermore, just one week ago I saw members of Congress and the media lie about racism at a Tea Party rally. Saw it with my own two eyes. Now, is that a conspiracy, and does my knowledge of it make me paranoid?
We've all seen a sudden emergence of trumped up news stories about violence against congressmen for voting for the health bill. And while I'm sure that congressmen get threats every day, am I paranoid to notice that the reporting on these events went from nil to front page overnight?
There is an effort to manipulate public opinion underway right now. Does realizing this make me paranoid?
I haven't been paying close attention to the reports of a Congressman having racial slurs yelled at him at the protest but I do have a couple of questions / statement.
I'm not doubting your claim that you heard no racial remarks but is it possible you didn't hear them over the crowd? How many people where there, where you near the Congressman the whole time?
Second, who cares if a Congressman got insulted by a bigot at a rally? Seriously even if one guy, or fifteen guys yelled a racial slur at him weren't there thousands of people at this rally? (I didn't read the articles, its really a non issue for me. ) If there was 1,000 people at the rally 15 racist people are only .015% of the total population of protesters. Its obviously a tiny fraction of the protesters. I wish a MSN reporter would say that, but they won't.
There is always someone or some group trying to sway public opinion, its the way of the world everyone's always trying to do it for one agenda or another it doesn't make you paranoid to notice that, but when from the word arrest people are claiming that this is a set up by Democrats or homeland security on some nefarious mission it starts to sound like nonsense, especially when the charges are this serious and we have a board member you is pretty much backing up the media reports. If it comes out that these charges are trumped up I'll be one of the first people on here to decry it and call for their release, and for someone to be held accountable for this but until then I will believe the gov version until some evidence comes out to prove other wise.
It would make us all look crazy to support a militia who may have been planning to ambush and murder police officers, we would do MSN's job for them. Do we really want that? Lets not mince words, these people are domestic terrorists if these allegations are true.
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From our local Channel 7 news:
ADRIAN, Mich. (WXYZ) - Law enforcement officials may have found the last suspect in the "Hutaree" case.
Sources tell Action News that the FBI is involved in a standoff in North Adams Village, about 30 miles from the site of Saturday's raid in Adrian. They are believed to be looking for Josh Stone, the son of the group leader David Stone.
The younger Stone has been on the run since the raid. So far the FBI has not commented on the standoff.
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Sources tell Action News that the FBI is involved in a standoff in North Adams Village, about 30 miles from the site of Saturday's raid in Adrian. They are believed to be looking for Josh Stone, the son of the group leader David Stone.
If the FBI can't get him out maybe they should call up the militia? :D
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If the FBI can't get him out maybe they should call up the militia? :D
I'd go if they called us, though it would be in Josh's best interest that the feds catch him. :lol:
The Hutaree have never been popular in the militia community. Imagine how we feel about them now that we've spent two days of our lives on the phone with the media, explaining over and over again that they aren't us.
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What law does Teaching the Use of Explosive Materials violate, and how does it pass 1st Amendment muster?
I wondered about that myself. If teaching the use of explosive materials is contrary to Federal law, there are a number of U.S. Army combat engineer training cadre at Fort Leonard Wood, MO, who need to be held accountable for teaching me how to blow up roads and bridges. Horror of horrors, we were even given instruction in the placement of Claymore mines and Bangalore torpedoes.
I'd love to see the FBI trying to raid Fort Lost in the Woods.
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I'm sure you already know this, but most of the internet is populated by idiots (current forums excluded :P). Anecdotal evidence that some anonymous users posted on a left wing message board that this militia is linked to the Tea Party movement is inconsequential.
The exampes I posted are anecdotal, but the attitudes they exemplify are widespread.
If news casters starts claiming there is a link between this militia and the tea party movement they better hope there is
proof or else someone would call them on it. Wouldn't Rush, Hannity, or someone else at Fox call B.S. on MSM if they tried that?
The alternative media types have been hitting hard on the racial slurs thing not happening. Didn't stop the MSM from reporting it anyway.
Limbaugh is out of town and not broadcasting anything new til Thursday. And I think Beck is out right now, too. Hannity is hawking a book, not too interested engaging the falsehoods.
If I was paranoid I would say this is by design, that the powers that be chose their timing well knowing that the opposition media was AWOL this week. I'm not paranoid though, and I make no such claim.
Suppose even *IF* one of these Hutaree members went to a Tea Party Rally does it really matter? I know the some people will try and paint all Tea Partier's as crazies but the reality is their just protesters. I don't know how to combat the "crazy label" aside from maintaining the peacefulness already displayed at the protests, and possibly trying to get more air time on Fox News and any other media shows to actually air their grievances with the Gov.
Absolutely it matters. It tarnishes the movement, marginalizes it, lessens its ability to make a difference. This is what the teh interwebz people have been so voracious in trying to draw the link. The lefties out there know what it would mean to have these Hutaree whackjobs conflated with Tea Partiers and the anti-Obama political agenda.
I haven't been paying close attention to the reports of a Congressman having racial slurs yelled at him at the protest but I do have a couple of questions / statement.
I'm not doubting your claim that you heard no racial remarks but is it possible you didn't hear them over the crowd? How many people where there, where you near the Congressman the whole time?
Yes, I was near enough for much of his walk from Longworth to the Capitol. It was only a hundred yards or so. Just about anything he could have headr, the rest of us would have heard just as easily. There was shouting and chanting and suchlike, but none of it was racial.
And bear in mind that Cleaver's initial allegations were that there was a "chorus" of people chanting racist remarks at him, that it was the whole crowd and not just an isolated individual. And that the protest was as bad as the 1960's protests. He's since backed his charges down some, probably due to the fact that there's video floating around the web showing him making his walk and nothing even remotely racial is visible or audible.
Second, who cares if a Congressman got insulted by a bigot at a rally? Seriously even if one guy, or fifteen guys yelled a racial slur at him weren't there thousands of people at this rally? (I didn't read the articles, its really a non issue for me. ) If there was 1,000 people at the rally 15 racist people are only .015% of the total population of protesters. Its obviously a tiny fraction of the protesters. I wish a MSN reporter would say that, but they won't.
The media clearly cares. So do the Congressmen. So do the people in the web, and the politically aware folks I've spoken with in meatspace since the event last week.
It matters a lot. We're in a PR war, plain and simple. The blatant falsehoods cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.
There is always someone or some group trying to sway public opinion, its the way of the world everyone's always trying to do it for one agenda or another it doesn't make you paranoid to notice that, but when from the word arrest people are claiming that this is a set up by Democrats or homeland security on some nefarious mission it starts to sound like nonsense, especially when the charges are this serious and we have a board member you is pretty much backing up the media reports. If it comes out that these charges are trumped up I'll be one of the first people on here to decry it and call for their release, and for someone to be held accountable for this but until then I will believe the gov version until some evidence comes out to prove other wise.
It would make us all look crazy to support a militia who may have been planning to ambush and murder police officers, we would do MSN's job for them. Do we really want that? Lets not mince words, these people are domestic terrorists if these allegations are true.
Has anyone suggested that the charges are trumped up or phony?
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You probably can't get any closer to this story than you can through me.
Well, that's easy to fix. Do you have any of their membership applications? I'm sure someone here can get you Fistful's info to fill it out.
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About now, they probably need somebody to blame stuff on.
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Crazy as bedbugs, loons, hatters and all other comparatives - no question.
But I still am struggling to understand why, how, based on what rationale other than the preceeding, these folks, along with just about every other individual/group who plans something along these lines, believes that once thery carry out their act(tion) the "rest of the nation" will respond with a general uprising/ call to arms.
Yes, I know the answer lies in my first line above. :facepalm: But still - really? What makes these nutjobs think their cause has any more chance of sparking a general uprising than any nutjob cause that went before them? :facepalm:
OK, so I'm asking a circular question based on nutjobbery, which ought to provide me with the answer to my own question. Maybe it's just that I am amazed, still, at the power of demogogery to "convince" some folks to swallow the kind of BS that passes for the manifesto of these loons.
Sweet $diety, think of what it would be like if they ran for public office instead of running around planning to blow up folks!
OK, I'm going to brew up another pot of cammomile tea, eat some chocolate, and go sit in the corner sucking my thumb while holding my blankie. The rest of you may carry on.
stay safe.
skidmark
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I wonder how long it will take for some Democratic Underground types to show up at Tea Party rallies just so they can yell racial epithets in front of the cameras . . . ???
As for the Hutaree . . . if they've been building IEDs, they're toast, legally, and I have no sympathy for them. Put 'em away for a good long time.
But I personally tend to regard charges like "conspiracy" with skepticism until the person actually does something tangible. (OK, building IEDs is something tangible.) And asserting that they were building WMDs sounds like so much nonsense - in my book, WMDs are limited to things like bioweapons, nukes, "dirty" bombs, and poison gas. Conventional IEDs are plenty of reason to lock these characters up until they're old and gray - piling on WMD charges suggests the .gov case against all of them may have a few holes in it and they're "piling on" charges in the hope that something sticks.
But I still am struggling to understand why, how, based on what rationale other than the preceeding, these folks, along with just about every other individual/group who plans something along these lines, believes that once thery carry out their act(tion) the "rest of the nation" will respond with a general uprising/ call to arms.
Good question . . . Americans just don't like terrorists. Run around in the woods playing soldier and keep to yourself, and we'll generally ignore you. Start a war on Mainstreet USA, start murdering our friends and neighbors, and you won't get our approval, you'll earn our condemnation.
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The camoflage thing is what gets me ... why would anyone think that running around in camoflage is going to make people not notice you ? ;/
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@Declaration Day:
Looks like your people got through on CNN!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/michigan.militia.arrests/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn
Group arrested not Christian or militia, insider says
By the CNN Wire Staff
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Hutaree "really a fringe group," Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia member says
Eight Hutaree members arrested over weekend; ninth suspect later taken into custody
Federal indictment alleges Hutaree group plotted to kill officer, attack funeral
(CNN) -- Members of a militia charged with plotting to kill police were not Christian or a militia, a man acquainted with the group said Tuesday.
"This is a group that I would classify as neither a militia or a Christian group," said Michael Lackomar, a member of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia. "They're really a fringe group outside of anything we do.
"They're more of a private army or a terrorist organization or really just a criminal organization."
Federal authorities on Monday charged nine members of a group called the Hutaree militia with conspiring to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then kill other officers at the funeral.
The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior." Its home page said it is "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."
Lackomar told CNN's "American Morning" on Tuesday that five Hutaree members sought refuge over the weekend with a Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia leader because federal authorities were looking for them. Lackomar said the member of his militia advised the Hutaree members to turn themselves in so no one would get hurt.
Federal authorities arrested eight Hutaree members over the weekend. A ninth member was arrested Monday night.
A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, indicted six Michigan residents, two Ohioans and an Indiana resident on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, said U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge.
Read the indictment (PDF)
The five-count indictment unsealed Monday said the plot started in August 2008.
Attorney General Eric Holder called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists."
In the "About Us" section of the Hutaree Web site, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded."
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia.
"Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order,' engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing or advocate or adhere to extreme anti-government doctrines," the center said in a report, "Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism."
The center also defines Patriot groups as "militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose 'one-world government' on liberty-loving Americans."
The suspects were identified as militia leader David Brian Stone, 45; his wife, Tina Stone, 44; his son Joshua Matthew Stone, 21, of Clayton, Michigan; another son, David Brian Stone Jr., 19, of Adrian, Michigan; Joshua Clough, 28, of Blissfield, Michigan; Michael Meeks, 40, of Manchester, Michigan; Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Indiana; Kristopher Sickles, 27, of Sandusky, Ohio; and Jacob Ward, 33, of Huron, Ohio.
A bond hearing has been set for 1 p.m. Wednesday.
Court-appointed counsel will be assigned to the seven suspects who were in court Monday because none of them had attorneys.
According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state and federal law enforcement authorities as the enemy and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.
The indictment alleges the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer in Michigan and then attack officers and others who would gather for that officer's funeral. According to the plan, the indictment said, the Hutaree wanted to use improvised explosive devices to attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession. The indictment said those explosive devices, commonly called IEDs, constitute weapons of mass destruction.
Subsequently, the indictment said, Hutaree leader David Brian Stone obtained information about IEDs over the Internet and e-mailed diagrams to a person he believed could manufacture them. He then had one of his sons, Joshua Matthew Stone, and others gather materials necessary to manufacture IEDs, the indictment alleged.
According to the indictment, David Brian Stone and David Brian Stone Jr. taught other Hutaree members in June how to make and use explosive devices.
In addition, the grand jury charged all nine defendants with carrying or possessing a firearm during a crime of violence on at least one occasion.
"Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time," said McQuade, the U.S. attorney.
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@Declaration Day:
Looks like your people got through on CNN!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/michigan.militia.arrests/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn
Yep, that's Mike, a good friend and fellow SMVM Team Leader. Our inboxes are being flooded with media requests today.
Our Unit Coordinator has been invited to appear on Larry King Live.
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If the FBI can't get him out maybe they should call up the militia? :D
I'd go if they called us...
This interests me greatly. Are you implying that, contrary to public opinion and media assumption, that your group would openly and willingly work with traditional law enforcement?
If so, then that's probably something that should be made quite public, as in try to slip it into everything from future media interviews to questions asked by curious individuals to official statements made to authorities.
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This interests me greatly. Are you implying that, contrary to public opinion and media assumption, that your group would openly and willingly work with traditional law enforcement?
If so, then that's probably something that should be made quite public, as in try to slip it into everything from future media interviews to questions asked by curious individuals to official statements made to authorities.
More like repeat it every sentence so the MSM can't edit it out.
And the other thing that's been in my mind, all the way back since the 90's and OKC bombing, and the Clinton Administration's attempts at trying to link anything right wing, militias, talk radio etc. to such acts of extremist violence is that it backfires.
Either in terms of the '94 landslides in Congress...
Or now with trying to malign healthcare reform protest and the Tea Parties. Frankly, if the Republican gains are bigger than anyone expects, it'll be a good thing for all concerned, and let off a lot of pressure.
Just like I thought back in the 90's, if the Left just keeps maligning the Right as racist, violent, etc. ad-nauseum... eventually people will just throw up their hands and decide they've got nothing to lose and might as well get something in return for all the defamation. =(
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WMD has a legal definition that is broader than the conventional idea.
We would have been better served if instead of looking for a cool new acronym for the Gulf the .gov and media had just stick with NBC to describe mass killing weapons since that's what springs immediately to mind in the general public.
They apparently had done some scouting for an attack which (yes, yes, if true) would provide enough concrete action to support a conspiracy charge versus harrassing a few guys for sitting around running their mouths.
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This interests me greatly. Are you implying that, contrary to public opinion and media assumption, that your group would openly and willingly work with traditional law enforcement?
Yes. We already do.
We are a citizens' militia. We are not anti-government. We are pro-limited government. We care about our neighbors, communities and nation.
We do not condone any plot or action to kill or harm American citizens. While we didn't know about the plot at hand or the impending takedown, it was our tip-off that led the FBI to scrutinize the Hutaree more than a year ago.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard any LEO or government official blame us for what the Hutaree were planning. Only certain media outlets have done that, and we're working feverishly to correct the error (lie?).
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I'm about as un-tinfoil hat as it gets, and i've even sometimes reluctantly admitted, somewhat liberal.
But now i'm actually concerned. The bit I hear all over the news today is "Hutaree square in the middle of the right wing militia movement"
so I'm thinking something's up, and I don't like the smell of it at all.
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"Hutaree square in the middle of the right wing militia movement"
Not only are they not "square in the middle of the militia movement", they are not even part of it. They are a religious cult.
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Not only are they not "square in the middle of the militia movement", they are not even part of it. They are a religious cult.
Yea, I don't get it. I'd almost think this is part of someone's plan to paint militias as anti-cop and terrorists.
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Yea, I don't get it. I'd almost think this is part of someone's plan to paint militias as anti-cop and terrorists.
:facepalm:I can't believe something like that would even be considered by our governemtn or the media... [barf]
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Yea, I don't get it. I'd almost think this is part of someone's plan to paint militias, Tea Party protesters, Libertarians and Republicans as anti-cop and terrorists.
There, fixed it for you.
The left-of-center mainstream American media is looking for ways to do this every day. One half of it is that their world view is so skewed they don't even know they're doing it. The other half of it is intentional and malicious. The news at hand just does not give them as much opportunity as they like. The vast majority of the American Right is too busy working at their jobs and taking care of their families to "do anything" newsworthy.
So they have to take fringe nutters like the Hutaree, or Tim McVeigh back in the 90's and use them to try and paint all of us with the brush.
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[popcorn]
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Yep, that's Mike, a good friend and fellow SMVM Team Leader. Our inboxes are being flooded with media requests today.
Our Unit Coordinator has been invited to appear on Larry King Live.
If I can make a suggestion. Prep your media guys on the actual background of these loons. All of the info you can get. I'm seeing very very little real info on them. THAT would get attention in a hurry. "They were founded in year X, by So and So. This is their beliefs. This is what they've been doing. This is their stated intentions. This is what they've actually been doing. This is why we avoided them." etc.
All I see in the media from your guys is "They're not us and they're very bad people". That's nice. Try to flesh it out with details and a lot more folks will pay attention.
And most importantly, send a cease and desist letter from your group's attorney to the outlets that are claiming these loons are members of your organization. Do it immediately, or it will stick. Heck, ask them to publish a public apology and correction.
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All I see in the media from your guys is "They're not us and they're very bad people". That's nice. Try to flesh it out with details and a lot more folks will pay attention.
Yes, if you're giving them actual facts, background, and "meat" that's different than the same stuff repeated endlessly, the news directors will be kissing your kiester for more and may just be in a frame of mind to give you some more impartial, maybe dare I say, friendly, editing.
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If I can make a suggestion. Prep your media guys on the actual background of these loons. All of the info you can get. I'm seeing very very little real info on them. THAT would get attention in a hurry. "They were founded in year X, by So and So. This is their beliefs. This is what they've been doing. This is their stated intentions. This is what they've actually been doing. This is why we avoided them." etc.
All I see in the media from your guys is "They're not us and they're very bad people". That's nice. Try to flesh it out with details and a lot more folks will pay attention.
I agree with this. Right now we are so swamped with interviews that I have trouble even getting in touch with other leaders.
On the positive side, the MSNBC article has been updated and no longer states "Michigan Militia" anywhere in the article. We have no legal leg to stand on if they want to call the Hutaree a militia, however. Good enough for me. I'll be checking the other major media outlets in a minute.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36095306/ns/us_news-security/
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FOX News article is updated also. "Michigan Militia" has been removed from the headline.
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I wonder, though, how many times an article is read after publishing on the internet within the time it's posted until the time they change it. Percentage as, say, compared to its lifetime.
If it's close to a decreasing logarithm in shape, and a copy of the original article still exists, it might still be a valid charge.
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Yea, I don't get it. I'd almost think this is part of someone's plan to paint militias as anti-cop and terrorists.
That was already done, and very successfully, back during the Clinton Administration, if not earlier.
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I wonder, though, how many times an article is read after publishing on the internet within the time it's posted until the time they change it. Percentage as, say, compared to its lifetime.
If it's close to a decreasing logarithm in shape, and a copy of the original article still exists, it might still be a valid charge.
Perhaps. I think the fact that we got them to change it at all is a step in the right direction.
ABC News no longer states "Michigan Militia" either.
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Vindication: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfxx-RPfQo
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Well, I am glad cooler heads are popping up, even if there are not many so far.
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Vindication: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfxx-RPfQo
Glad to see some folks are getting it right; and I really hope I'm wrong about the paranoia I started above.
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Barbara McQuade hasn't been watching enough MSNBC.
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Vindication: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfxx-RPfQo
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi143.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr146%2F12_8%2Fsm%2F1JCuz%2Fjc_clap.gif&hash=5086ecf3a5af220e51cc2e885c7eb28b7ed0b97f)
Hopefully further (unbiased) clarification will follow, but even if it doesn't--that's still pretty good. =)
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I have just uncovered actual video of the Hutaree testing their IEDs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
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:facepalm: ;/
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I have just uncovered actual video of the Hutaree testing their IEDs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
:laugh:
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CNN Video With a University of Michigan sociology student who has spent two years with us. She has been to nearly every meeting and training in that time period:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/03/30/nr.michigan.militia.cooter.cnn
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CNN Video With a University of Michigan sociology student who has spent two years with us. She has been to nearly every meeting and training in that time period:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/03/30/nr.michigan.militia.cooter.cnn
One could almost smell the baiting of his questions, and she was noticeably (and understandably) very nervous, but came across very well. =)
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One could almost smell the baiting of his questions, and she was noticeably (and understandably) very nervous, but came across very well. =)
I agree, Dionysusigma. The reporter did his best to maneuver her into categorizing all militias as nuts. To her credit, she didn't take the bait. She did a pretty good job with the interview, overall.
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I agree, Dionysusigma. The reporter did his best to maneuver her into categorizing all militias as nuts. To her credit, she didn't take the bait. She did a pretty good job with the interview, overall.
She's also the only researcher who has spent more than a few hours with us, in all the years I have been involved in this movement.
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CNN Video With a University of Michigan sociology student who has spent two years with us. She has been to nearly every meeting and training in that time period:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/03/30/nr.michigan.militia.cooter.cnn
Very nice. You can tell she's not a professional interviewee (bit nervous), and the interviewer was certainly angling to paint the militia as whack jobs. All and all, good job.
Very balanced, very informed, well spoken. Very attractive young lady in general. I'd love to see a copy of her thesis whenever she publishes it.
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Although, I'm reminded of the works of Shan Yu a little... [tinfoil]