Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: makattak on March 31, 2010, 01:18:47 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/31/gop-wary-health-law-repeal-push-fall/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Text+-+Politics%29
I will not quote the whole article, but:
GOP Sees Risks in Push to Repeal Health Law
WASHINGTON -- Top Republicans are increasingly worried that GOP candidates this fall might be burned by a fire that's roaring through the conservative base: demand for the repeal of President Barack Obama's new health care law.
It's fine to criticize the health law and the way Democrats pushed it through Congress without a single GOP vote, these party leaders say. But focusing on its outright repeal carries two big risks.
Repeal is politically and legally unlikely, and grass-roots activists may feel disillusioned by a failed crusade. More important, say strategists from both parties, a fiercely repeal-the-bill stance might prove far less popular in a general election than in a conservative-dominated GOP primary, especially in states such as Illinois and California.
Here's your risk morons:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/55_favor_repeal_of_health_care_bill
55% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill
If the Stupid Party doesn't run on a repeal platform or runs away from repeal, they are through. Tea partiers work with the republicans because they believe that they will stop and remove this crap.
If the Republicans decide that's too hard, a third party will result. That won't be pretty.
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But if they run on a repeal platform, they might be embarassed on the news.
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If they run away from repeal, they deserve to be destroyed.
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HA! I was just coming here to post this:http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/31/republicans-refocus-criticism-of-obama-health-bills-effect-on-jobs-and-financial-cost-to-businesses/2/#ixzz0jlcnIRmd (http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/31/republicans-refocus-criticism-of-obama-health-bills-effect-on-jobs-and-financial-cost-to-businesses/2/#ixzz0jlcnIRmd)
Republicans shift focus from repeal to Obama health law’s impact on jobs and cost to businesses
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/31/republicans-refocus-criticism-of-obama-health-bills-effect-on-jobs-and-financial-cost-to-businesses/2/#ixzz0jmF5kHcf
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Let's see...we start paying taxes for the entitlement before most of the entitlement kicks in, it's already unpopular and will become more so once the taxes hit, the unsavory process by which the law was passed would make for great campaign commercials and terrific campaign fodder...
Yep. It's probably too risky to run on that platform. Dolts.
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Nah, the party faithful will always return because they are the "lesser of two evils" and are "slowing the rate of decline".
Chris
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It's also likely that a good part of the GOP leadership doesn't want to repeal Obamacare . . . they actually like it. :facepalm:
Oh, that RINOs truly were an endangered species . . .
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No one here should be surprised; most aren't. The real issue with "health care reform" isn't health care or even sound economics, though those are both important, it's individual liberty, and the GOP stopped really believing in that a long time ago.
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It's also likely that a good part of the GOP leadership doesn't want to repeal Obamacare . . . they actually like it.
True dat. They voted against it secure in the knowledge it was going to pass. The party faithfull will make noise about how the fearless and brave Republican party will work to defund, slow, or otherwise break the bill even while it is the law. The claim will be made that this is a slower decline and we should be thankful it isn't getting worse faster. It won't get repealed and it will be business as usual.
Have I covered all the typical excuses?
Chris
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looks like i might get the Christmas present i've been hoping for this year, the gob becoming the left wing party and a brand spanking new conservative party. [popcorn] woohoo. =D
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"Teh Stupid Party"
Why do I suspect that some diabolically clever strategist in the Evil Party wants the Devilcrats to take a beating this coming November. The Stupids will then be in power and take the blame when everything falls apart.
Aaron Zelman of JPFO has some scary observations (http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/elections2010-open-letter-to-america.htm)
With a few laudable exceptions, Senators and Representatives in Washington D.C. do not seem to care about the upcoming elections in November of this year. With a less than eleven percent approval rating from their constituency, these politicians, in normal times, would be cringing at the thought of going home to their own States and Districts to face the wrath of a furious American public.
But look how these arrogant politicians are behaving. They don’t seem to care. Were elections held tomorrow the bums would be tossed out … by the truckload.
And so, the question must be asked: Are there even going to be elections in 2010? And, if there are, will they be honest?
Are there even going to be elections in 2010?
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Looks like it is more compicated.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/cnn-poll-americans-divided-on-repealing-health-care-law/?fbid=ZJIEOCje6-_
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/29/rel6a.pdf
Congress should leave the bill as it is 23%
Congress should make additional changes to increase the
government's involvement in the nation's health care system 27%
Congress should repeal most of the major provisions in that bill
and replace them with a completely different set of proposals 47%
No opinion 3%
So according to that poll 47% support repeal and 50% support leaving it as is or expanding it. I googled around and it seems polls are all over the place. Have to wait for things to settle down and see where the actual consensus is. I imagine we won't know for a while.
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Crystal clear example of how the political ratchet works. R's huff and puff about the evils of <insert issue of choice> but fail to prevent passage. Then when the dust settles some R dim-bulb (in this case, Cornyn of TX) says "not so fast. We gotta be careuful yada, yada, yada." In about a week the polls show up along with op-ed pieces demonstrating how bad an idea it is to back off the ratchet. Nooo, can't do that. Can't have any change in direction.
It is nut crackin' time for spinelessrepublicans. Someone, somewhere has to stand up. If spinelessrepublicans can't then I would think alternatives will appear in numbers directly proportional to popular outrage.
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I'm always amazed anyone pays attention to polls. I'd think even the R's would catch on that this is really, really unpopular with anyone who is not so vehemently left that voting for an R wouldn't be a possibility anyway.
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I've already decided they (GOP) are complicit in this.
If the 3rd party can siphon off from Evil and Stupid, leaving them both at 40% each of a particular house of Congress, and the 3rd party has 20% of the votes... Oh, a fella can dream, can't he?
If left to their own devices, the GOP will allow Obamacare to go into effect and somehow claim a "victory" by pulling about 2% of its total spending out of the final package.
War against Incumbents is the only solution right now... give the Tea Party some time to practice electioneering in 2010 for something more substantive in 2012 or 2014.
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Cornyn in my Senator. Just sent him the following:
Just read about you going weak in the knees about repealing Obamacare. You'd best look around DC and find your spine, because it looks like you lost it somewhere. I'm not feeling too tolerant for Stupid Party Stupid RINO tricks, so you & your fellow policritters best man up and get ready to battle.
Or, we can send someone younger, with more fire in their belly, and with a surer grasp of conservative principles than you possess.
Grow a Pair,
jfruser
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Wait, so some liberal journalist at the AP sez Republicans need to be careful about repeal, and everyone here jumps up and down decrying the Reps as if they've done something wrong?
???
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Wait, so some liberal journalist at the AP sez Republicans need to be careful about repeal, and everyone here jumps up and down decrying the Reps as if they've done something wrong?
???
No, the head of the GOP senator's campaign committee (Cornyn) releases a long-*expletive deleted*ss memo that pooh-poohs repeal and goes all squish in an interview on the same subject.
Now, he can be motivated. He was pro-"comprehensive immigration refprm" back in 2007, but enough constituents gave him a piece of their mind that he was "born again hard" and eventually opposed hte amnesty.
I'd say it is a fine time to give them a motivational kick in the *expletive deleted*ss.
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Have you seen said memo, or are you simply relying on the misleading description of it given by the journalist?
And 1,260 words isn't exactly "long *expletive deleted*ss". In terms of political strategy that's pretty brief.
And what interview are you talking about?
All Cornyn is quoted in the article as saying is that Obama's wrongness extends farther than just health care (absolutely true), that the economy is as important or more (also absolutely true), and that Reps should highlight the financial impact of the bill as a way to link Obama's health care bill to the failing economy (again, absolutely true). Various others are quoted as saying that campaigning on repeal alone isn't enough (also true), that they need to have something that they're for, not merely something they're against.
What I see is a reporter selectively presenting facts in a way that's carefully calibrated to get potential Republican sympathizers pissed off at Republicans who could beat back Obama in November.
Well, look around. It worked beautifully. =|
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It begins: GOP inching away from campaign to repeal ObamaCare
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/03/31/it-begins-gop-inching-away-from-campaign-to-repeal-obamacare/
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One of two things can happen.
Either the GOP will push for, run on, advocate, repeal of the health care bill in the next election. Winning, it will move on to either defund or derail parts of the bill legislatively (not being able to repeal it altogether). While success will be mixed at first, parts of the bill will fall and the rest will be finished off within the next few election cycles.
Based on what we know from experience, another scenario is more likely:
1.The GOP will gradually retreat from repeal, beginning now and culminating November.
2.Opponents of the bill will first be outraged. Many will threaten to either vote for a third party or abstain from voting altogether.
3.As the 2010 election approaches, people will.slowly become more and more afraid of the Democrats winning again – some because they want to see their team win, others because they have genuine concerns about the Democrats winning. People will say – nay, persuade themselves – that this election is too important to let the Democrats win, that the Democrats will completely ruin America if they win, that it is childish and insane and whatnot to hold out over the one issue, and so on, and so forth. People will hold their nose and vote Republican again. In a few years, repeal will become unthinkable.
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Think it through, folks. They're setting you down a path. If you continue on it, you're hosed.
Republicans can't repeal any of the bill until at least 2012, and even then only if Obama is defeated at the polls. They cannot override a veto. You cannot honestly blame the Republicans for this fact, yet I know many of you will blame them anyway. This is what the Dems are counting on.
Furthermore, Republicans can't run on a platform of repeal alone. Campaigning only against something does not work, candidates must be able to offer something that they are for. Cornyn knows this. So does the AP staff behind this article, so does Obama, so does basically everyone who's savvy and involved in the process. That's why Cornyn proposes to run on a platform of repeal and replace, and also on the economy that Republican ideals can fix.
But y'all will not stand for a platform any larger than repeal alone. This puts the Repubs right where Obama and the Dems want them. Repubs can't win at the polls on the only strategy you will tolerate, and even if they somehow win anyway, they can't repeal the bill over an Obama veto. And when they inevitably fail to repeal the bill, most of you will wrongly blame the Republicans and not Obama. Obamacare will stand, Democrat single party rule will stand, and we'll all be borked.
Think long and hard about whether this is the route y'all really wanna take. They are setting you up for failure, and you're playing along with it.
Please, please, think this one through!
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Republicans can't repeal any of the bill until at least 2012, and even then only if Obama is defeated at the polls.
This is true, but they are capable of derailing a variety of its provisions by defunding them, or by refusing to vote for funding for other projects. Obama can veto, but he can't make Congress vote for stuff he wants funded. This is exactly the strategy proposed by a variety of conservative analysts and insiders.
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Think it through, folks. They're setting you down a path. If you continue on it, you're hosed.
Republicans can't repeal any of the bill until at least 2012, and even then only if Obama is defeated at the polls. They cannot override a veto. You cannot honestly blame the Republicans for this fact, yet I know many of you will blame them anyway. This is what the Dems are counting on.
Furthermore, Republicans can't run on a platform of repeal alone. Campaigning only against something does not work, candidates must be able to offer something that they are for. Cornyn knows this. So does the AP staff behind this article, so does Obama, so does basically everyone who's savvy and involved in the process. That's why Cornyn proposes to run on a platform of repeal and replace, and also on the economy that Republican ideals can fix.
But y'all will not stand for a platform any larger than repeal alone. This puts the Repubs right where Obama and the Dems want them. Repubs can't win at the polls on the only strategy you will tolerate, and even if they somehow win anyway, they can't repeal the bill over an Obama veto. And when they inevitably fail to repeal the bill, most of you will wrongly blame the Republicans and not Obama. Obamacare will stand, Democrat single party rule will stand, and we'll all be borked.
Think long and hard about whether this is the route y'all really wanna take. They are setting you up for failure, and you're playing along with it.
Please, please, think this one through!
Cornyn is testing the waters for accommodation with Obamacare, because that will be easier than plucking up courage and opposing the mess.
The Stupid Party, being stupid, has difficulty understanding anything beyond fear for their own well-being. As with amnesty, we must make our wishes known and that the consequences of turning their backs on the base will be derailment of their gravy train.
We don't need any Medvedian/Hewittian GOP tools to pave the way for RINO ascendancy, the culmination of which was the glorious campaign of McCain.
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Cornyn is testing the waters for accommodation with Obamacare, because that will be easier than plucking up courage and opposing the mess.
The Stupid Party, being stupid, has difficulty understanding anything beyond fear for their own well-being. As with amnesty, we must make our wishes known and that the consequences of turning their backs on the base will be derailment of their gravy train.
We don't need any Medvedian/Hewittian GOP tools to pave the way for RINO ascendancy, the culmination of which was the glorious campaign of McCain.
For the last year ALL Republicans have had the courage to oppose this health care refprm. The Reps have given you 110% in opposing this mess, from the leaders in Washington all the way down to the grassroots base people like me. And all you can say afterwards is that we don't have any courage, that we don't care about opposing Obamacare.
You need to get real.
And do you really believe that repealing Obamacare is simply a matter of having enough courage, after all that's happened this past year?
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If the GOP takes the House, the best way to repeal Obamacare is to take a long, LONG bill, and sneak in one short sentence, phrased in proper legalese, that says "Obamacare is entirely repealed." (OK, use the correct technical term for Obamacare.) There's at least a 50% chance nobody will read it and catch it. >:D
Moving on, I truly DETEST the RINOs in Congress . . . better a declared enemy than a backstabbing "friend," and some GOPers are beyond redemption.
But if we can make a squishy Republican toe the line, we should do so . . . don't let "Perfect" be the enemy of "OK" or even "Tolerable" . . .
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For the last year ALL Republicans have had the courage to oppose this health care refprm. The Reps have given you 110% in opposing this mess, from the leaders in Washington all the way down to the grassroots base people like me. And all you can say afterwards is that we don't have any courage, that we don't care about opposing Obamacare.
You need to get real.
And do you really believe that repealing Obamacare is simply a matter of having enough courage, after all that's happened this past year?
You are writing about the past and I am writing about the present & future. It took two weeks for the national GOP to test the waters for accommodation. I am doing my best to show the GOP that those waters are nut-sack-shrinkingly chilly.
I don't believe or expect instantaneous repeal will occur. I expect stout opposition to Obamacare and similar statist proposals until such time as repeal & replacement with market-oriented reform is viable, not accommodationist/RINO noise. Dereliction of their duty will cause me to support others made of sterner stuff.
This sort of constituent pressure has worked with Cornyn & The Squish (KBH) in the past. They need some adult supervision to tread the straight & narrow.
BTW, I am also GOP "grassroots/base people." At the precinct & district conventions I voted in support of, and made clear my support of, those opposed to RINO decadence. There is some new blood in my state's GOP apparatus this year, but direct commo to the policritters is also helpful.
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You are writing about the past and I am writing about the present & future. It took two weeks for the national GOP to test the waters for accommodation. I am doing my best to show the GOP that those waters are nut-sack-shrinkingly chilly.
No, you are still working in the past. The health care bill is law, and there is nothing we can do about except maybe try to chip away at it with defunding (a la MB) or attempt to use trickery (a la Mak). For now, at least.
Cornyn realizes this, and he's trying to shift the debate away from something that's impossible and a sure loser (full repeal and nothing less), to something a little more realistic (opposition to socialist health care in general and opposition to all of the other socialist garbage related to the Dems).
Cornyn is playing for the future. He's looking for a viable way forward. Folks who are hell bent on repeal and aren't interested in anything else are stuck in the past, they're still fighting a battle that's over and lost.
Let's focus on the battles we can win and come up with viable strategies for winning them.
I don't believe or expect instantaneous repeal will occur. I expect stout opposition to Obamacare and similar statist proposals until such time as repeal & replacement with market-oriented reform is viable, not accommodationist/RINO noise. Dereliction of their duty will cause me to support others made of sterner stuff.
So now you're agreeing with Cornyn? No instantaneous repeal, instead focus on broader statism vs free-market issues? Then why all the harsh words for him? Have you confused strategy with capitulation?
When politcritters do what you want, the appropriate response is to support them and encourage them to continue doing more of the same, not to give them an earful about how wrong they've got it for doing what you want. Giving them hell for doing what you ask from them does not encourage them to pay attention to you the next time a big decision comes up.
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When a suicide bombing attack take place, you don't measure the casualties by the one or two babies the shrapnel miraculously missed, you condemn the attack in a plenary way and hammer relentlessly on the flagitious motive. In the case of ObamaCare the intent is to destroy individual liberty and to control all of us body and soul. We forget that, and rationalize it, at our mortal peril.
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HTG:
I question the profitability of debating due to:
1. You didn't bother to read the article before posting. (Certainly your first post was written before mashing the link on through to the article.)
2. Reflexive defense of GOP actions before knowing the facts (see #1)
3. Misunderstanding and/or misconstruction of the base's points when they are critical of the GOP.
Hmm, problems similar to those exhibited by GOP "leadership" at the national & state level, of the sort that got us into this mess.
Anyways, I am so very glad I went to the district convention and had a hand in sending so many of the old functionaries home, rather than to the state convention they are used to attending. Makes me feel all warm inside.
Like I wrote above, the GOP does not need reflexive defense in the face of criticism from the base. It needs a good slapping around and some spine-stiffening.
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flagitious motive
Your loquacious verbiage inspired me to adopt this particularly adroit turn-of-phrase. =D
You are writing about the past and I am writing about the present & future. It took two weeks for the national GOP to test the waters for accommodation. I am doing my best to show the GOP that those waters are nut-sack-shrinkingly chilly.
I don't believe or expect instantaneous repeal will occur. I expect stout opposition to Obamacare and similar statist proposals until such time as repeal & replacement with market-oriented reform is viable, not accommodationist/RINO noise. Dereliction of their duty will cause me to support others made of sterner stuff.
+1. The Repubs are going to campaign on:
-Hooray, capitalism!
-Boo, socialism!
They will talk about the (luke-warm) evils of socialized health care without demonizing it too much... after all, it's now installed and entrenched in the fabric of the America that they have no problem supporting into the future. [barf]
When they get into office, they will use funding for this as a leverage chip to obtain similar funding for pet projects that THEY care about. Not as a means to decrease Federal funding in the first place... which should the the critical issue that all our critters face together.
As such, they will earn my perspicuous loathing and flagitious enmity.
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HTG:
I question the profitability of debating due to:
1. You didn't bother to read the article before posting. (Certainly your first post was written before mashing the link on through to the article.)
2. Reflexive defense of GOP actions before knowing the facts (see #1)
3. Misunderstanding and/or misconstruction of the base's points when they are critical of the GOP.
Hmm, problems similar to those exhibited by GOP "leadership" at the national & state level, of the sort that got us into this mess.
Anyways, I am so very glad I went to the district convention and had a hand in sending so many of the old functionaries home, rather than to the state convention they are used to attending. Makes me feel all warm inside.
Like I wrote above, the GOP does not need reflexive defense in the face of criticism from the base. It needs a good slapping around and some spine-stiffening.
:laugh: That's the best response you can muster? So much for your so-called "debate".
I'll close the "debate" portion of our conversation by saying that the GOP needs neither reflexive defense nor reflexive criticism. They've done exactly the right thing in response to this health care bill, opposed it all down the line with vigor and passion and at considerable expense. They deserve support for that, not the reflexive criticism I'm seeing here. For no rational or visible reason at all, some people expect that the Reps are suddenly gonna do a 180 and start supporting health care. Some are so convinced of their beliefs they're acting as if their beliefs have already become reality.
But no, those beliefs are not reality. However much you believe them, those beliefs are still groundless supposition, not reality.
The Republicans are not supporting health care, they are still opposing it 100%. Some may confuse strategizing effective ways to deal with the next election cycle with some sort of "accomodation" or capitulation, but it is nothing of the sort. When you're in a weak position, you do what you can to regain a position of strength. You do NOT mount a suicidal frontal assault when you know you have no chance of success.
The original article was written in a style intended to provoke precisely the kind of foolish assumptions and emotional responses some are giving it. They're playing you, and it seems to be working. This is not helpful.
Please, stop and think it through.
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Maybe he's just looking at the history of the Republican Party for precedent. We didn't get where we are without a lot of help from the GOP. So far, at this juncture, the Republican Party appears surprisingly resolute, monolithic; we'll see how long that lasts and IF it lasts past November's elections.
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True, the Republicans have made some bad moves in the past. C'est la vie.
But I thought he said he was looking to the present and the future, not the past?
;)
You are right, though, about the Republicans being resolute these days. Satisfying, that. You're also right about having to wait and see if it lasts. But so far so good.
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Wait...
Jfruser, is the reason you think I didn't read the article mak quoted because I said in my first post that was written by the AP?
=D
:facepalm:
<we need a dopeslap smiley>
HTG:
I question the profitability of debating due to:
1. You didn't bother to read the article before posting. (Certainly your first post was written before mashing the link on through to the article.)