Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Battle Monkey of Zardoz on April 28, 2010, 10:38:28 PM
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I try, I really do try to not post incidents like this. One, it ticks me off to the nth degree. And two, the person (always a cop) never gets what he deserves. Thus time is one of those times that I break my own rule. If this had happened to me, *I would be hard pressed not to hunt the little thug primate officer that started it all and beat the living tar out if him. Jail be damned. This is just plain wrong. Criminal. Chickenshit charges, secret judge signature on a arrest/search warrant. This is why more and more folks are not trusting police officers. And I dare any officer on APS to try and "defend" this LE idiots actions. Throw down your blue line. You have nothing to stand on. Pathetic primate with a badge.
http://carlosmiller.com/2010/04/16/maryland-motorcyclist-spends-26-hours-in-jail-on-wiretapping-charge-for-filming-cop-with-gun/
By Carlos Miller
After spending 26 hours in the Baltimore County Jail, Anthony Graber still doesn’t understand what he did wrong.
Sure, the 24-year-old man admits to speeding on his motorcycle, but does that merit having a plainclothes cop pull a gun on him?
Does that merit six state troopers raiding his parents’ home and seizing four computers at the crack of dawn?
Does that merit getting charged with a felony and threatened with five years in prison?
Of course it doesn’t
This is nothing but an obscene case of police intimidation. A Constitutional violation against a man who has served six years in the Air National Guard and who has never been arrested before.
A knee-jerk reaction from the Maryland State Police after Graber posted the video of the cop pulling a gun on him on Youtube (video is below).
That cop’s name is Joseph David Uhler, in case you were wondering. He has no business wearing a badge.
So how come he’s not being punished?
Well, we already know that answer. He’s above the law. They are above the law. The Maryland State Police Department, that is.
Why else would a judge sign a search warrant, allowing them to raid Graber’s parents home at 6:45 a.m. on a weekday, detaining his entire family for 90 minutes, forbidding his mother from going to work and younger sister from going to school while they rummaged through the family’s personal belongings?
And that judge’s name?
That’s a secret.
“There is no signature from the judge on the paperwork,” Graber said in an exclusive Photography is Not a Crime interview Thursday night, just hours after he was released from jail.
“They told me they don’t want you to know who the judge is because of privacy.
Is this America? Where cops are allowed to violate your Fourth Amendment rights – not to mention your First Amendment right to film them – on the approval of some secretive judge?
Well maybe not all judges agree.
“The judge who released me looked at the paperwork and said she didn’t see where I violated the wiretapping law.”
Ah yes, the wiretapping charge. That old standby that cops use when you happen to videotape them in public while they are on duty when they have absolutely no expectation of privacy.
Sure, the First Amendment supposedly allows us to photograph police in public. Numerous court rulings have determined that.
But now cops have turned to irrelevant wire-tapping charges to crack down against those who video them in public.
Those laws are designed to protect people whose voices are recorded in telephone calls. You know, when you actually have an expectation of privacy.
Fortunately, most judges end up throwing these charges out of court when the cops don’t have an expectation of privacy.
The case against Graber began on March 5 when he was speeding on his 2008 Honda CBR 1000RR motorcycle on Interstate 95. He had a video camera strapped to his helmet and was filming the ride.
He sped past Uhler’s unmarked car, who claimed he was popping a wheelie while traveling 100 mph.
And Uhler was only “visually estimating” his speed. He did not have a radar gun, which usually means it wouldn’t stand up in court.
Graber also admits to speeding past a marked car. However, he never heard any sirens behind him and even at one point in the video where Graber looks back, the only car behind him is Uhler’s unmarked car with no lights.
That was when Graber was already exiting the interstate. When he came to a complete stop behind the other cars at the exit, Uhler cut him off and hopped out of his car with a gun drawn, never flashing a badge and not identifying himself as an officer until several seconds later.
Uhler never mentioned that he pulled out his gun in his report.
But he did mention that he spotted “a strange looking object on the operator’s helmet that was later realized to be a video camera.”
The camera Graber was wearing when he was pulled over
And he did mention that he cited Graber a single citation for traveling 80 mph in a 65 mph zone.
So what’s the problem?
Well, Graber decided to post the video on Youtube, which made Uhler look like a thug.
In fact, if you look at the video, you’ll notice Uhler glance at the marked unit behind Graber and moved his gun behind him, as if trying to hide it from the other officer, before tucking it back into his pocket.
After all, an officer is only supposed to pull out his gun if he believes his life is in danger. Surely, that doesn’t happen with every traffic stop. Does it?
Ten days later, Uhler discovered that Graber posted the video online. Two videos. A longer one without audio and a shorter one with audio.
That prompted Uhler to issue an arrest warrant against Graber, citing that “Graber did not inform Tfc. Uhler that he was recording him by video or audio, thus violating criminal law 10-402(b).”
He also tacked on the charges of “reckless driving” and “negligent driving” to the arrest warrant.
And then six cops raided his parent’s home where Graber is living early one morning.
“They spent 90 minutes there,” he said.
“My mom had to go to work and they wouldn’t let her. My sister had to go to school and they wouldn’t let her.
“I just had gall bladder surgery and had bandages on my stomach.”
In fact, after a phone call to the commissioner, that was the only reason they didn’t arrest him on the spot. They told him he had to turn himself in when he got better, which he did.
“I just wanted to do the right thing,” he said.
When he showed up to the jail, they set his bond at $15,000, which is a little extravagant considering there is a maximum $10,000 fine for a wiretapping conviction.
He spent 26 hours in jail before he was released upon his own recognizance. The judge who released him took one look at the report and said that it didn’t appear he violated the wiretapping law.
“She said, ‘I have no idea why you’re charged with this’,” he said.
In fact, Maryland requires there to be an expectation of privacy in order to make that charge valid, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.
State courts interpreted laws to protect communications only when parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy
The incident has left Graber with a serious distrust of police.
“I’m now afraid of the police. Afraid of what they can do to me. I’ve never been arrested in my life before this,” he said.
He is now making arrangements to sell his motorcycle because he doesn’t feel comfortable riding it anymore.
And he is waiting for his preliminary trial to see if prosecutors will decide to pursue this case.
And as for Uhler, well he’s still roaming free to terrorize the citizens. Just as he did in Graber’s video below. And below that is the arrest warrant, which did not come out great but I am working on producing a better quality version with his Graber’s personal info redacted.
*I normally do not let things like this bother me to much. But incidents such as these are becoming all to common. I wound not track down a police officer personally for a come to jesus meeting. That's what the courts are for. Which in the court, I would come after him professionally, personally, with the intent that afterwards he and his family is homeless and his badge hanging, framed, on my wall.
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Carefull there BMoZ, you keep reading that site and its ilk, you'll end up as an angry gun-fondling anti-government nut job. ;)
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I am careful, and well, according to Mrs. BMZ, I was a nutjob before I started in the gun culture.
FWIW. I am not advocating that folks start challenging or fighting the popo on the side of the road, nor going after said popo on a personal level. Was just venting on how if this had happened to me, how hard it would be NOT to find the badge wearing thug and give him a thumping. Not that I would, but got to be honest, it would have crossed my mind. This incident should have some thugs wearing badges in jail or fired. This is not a case of wiretapping, not a case of speeding. Its a case of Pissed Off POPO who realized that the nation now knows what kind of idiotic thug he is, and he probably thinks his job is in jeopardy. Which I hope it is.
Down where I live. It would not behove the popo to make a stop, unmarked car, plain clothes. Hence they might get mistaken for carjackers and, well, you know.. [popcorn]
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Do you have a non-frothing account? Sounds like a pretty bad deal, but when I get smacked in the face with Conclusion before I see Evidence it makes me a mite distrustful.
That being said, I hate Maryland more than any state, including California which I have sworn to never enter again except under duress. Mainly because my best friend is tied there and I never get to see her as a result, but it's still a crap state.
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I am seeking other accounts, and will post any that I find. The video, if you do go to the link, speaks for itself.
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have you seen both videos yet? the short one with the sound clear as day as well as the long one with the sound edited out and the oh so curious excuse that its audio is gone "because i was humming a song" see if you can figure out why i think junior dropped the audio on the vid then released a short edit with the miracle audio track. also pay attention to his turning his head to look behind him about 8 seconds before he comes to a stop.
your outrage is misplaced can link you to a thread where its gone over at length on one of the thr's. and yea md is a two party consent state ask linda tripp.
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Sorry, it still stinks. Warrant presented without a judges signature. Thats not the way its done, or supposed to be done. My outrage is fine. This cop screwed the pooch. And I dont go to THR, I refuse to until the legal situation is cleared up.
If you can post some evidence that this guy was in the wrong, video from the unmarked police car, "visually estimating the speed" (croc of crap). Dont they teach pacing anymore. Im sure there is another side to this story. But the actions of the officers are uncalled for. That much was said by the judge who set him free wondering why he was being charged in the first place.
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If they actually served an unsigned warrant, that's a pretty significant no-no last I checked.
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It kind of smells, when he only got a ticket. And thug popo found out he was videotaped being a thug, the pile on the charges. If its a duck. You do see him hide his gun, as the marked cruiser pulled up. The suspect was not aware of the marked cruiser. The thug cop is lucky this was Maryland, down south, he might have gotten his ticket punched by a CCW carrier. Car jackings start out that way.
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If you can post some evidence that this guy was in the wrong,
have you seen both the videos yet? he posted them both himself on you tube. funny how theres no audio on the long one and it shows him turning all the way around before he came to a stop there was a marked car in the chase as well
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Is there any case law for a cop being shot while trying to do a stop from an unmarked car in plainclothes?
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what was it about the gun that scared/offended you?
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The gun didn't scare or offend me. A man cutting another driver off and exiting his vehicle with a gun drawn, well that is where things tend to go south. No uniform. No badge showing. And he can yell/claim "Police Officer" all day long. At the time, as you cops like to say, the totality of the circumstances from the motorists point of view, IMO was a WTF possible car jacking. Personally, if I were minding
my own business and a car cut me off, no markings to ID it as a police vehicle, i'd probably
had cleared leather before the man exited the vehicle or ran him down with my vehicle. That was a very bad decision that this thug cop made.
What is it about folks calling out cops for screwmg up that scares or offends you? It seems with
Maryland LE as of late, has had to over use their blue line. Remember the protester that some Maryland LE humped for no reason, claimed he was kicked by a horse, but no such thing was
caught on video. Horses were not even close. Face it. Just because you are a citizen with a badge doesn't give you a magic mushroom to get out of trouble when you muck up.
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Watch the video again. The biker looked back while on the offramp. Only vehicle there was thugs unmarked car, about 10'car lenghts back. No other vehicle is there. The the car cuts him off. Bad move
by an idiot thug cop.
Even if audio was there. And a siren was heard by the marked vehicle, how does the driver know it's after him. He hasn't seen a marked car. Only an idiot with a gun that just cut him off.
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you see the long video yet? wonder why he released a short edited version with audio?
No badge showing look at the belt closely
Personally, if I were minding
my own business and
if your own business is driving triple digits and popping wheelies in traffic you might figure getting popped as a cost of doing business.
as someone with some experience on stupid driving tricks, i spent 17 plus years walking as a result, that was a pretty tame stop.
cops expect you to run on certain types of bikes , with cause. they can't catch ya if they do. they go to great lengths to keep you from bolting when they do a stop like that. not uncommon to do what they did, ie use an unmarked to get in position to cut you off. its not uncommon to get knocked down if you stop after a real chase. believe it or not some guys stop then when the cop gets off bolt again. shocking i know. cop didn't even seem mad compared to some the kid was a pretty decent rider and on a reckless scale wasn't really all that bad except for the wheelies and speed.
oh and by the way i am not have never been and even in norfolk could never be a cop i am kinda into fairplay though and have very lil respect for the ladies who wanna break bad then cry to momma when they get caught their fanbois get tarred with the same brush
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BMZ, I'm on your side on this one.
If piglets can record whatever they want in public areas, then so can I. If they can have dashcams, then I can have audio/video on my person or vehicle.
I do know that 6:45AM no-knocks would find me putting lead down my hallway since I live a clean an honorable life and have no reason to suspect a need to surrender an inch of my home to any authority figure. Enter uninvited at your fatal peril.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Russell_House
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Watch the video again. The biker looked back while on the offramp. Only vehicle there was thugs unmarked car, about 10'car lenghts back. No other vehicle is there. The the car cuts him off. Bad move
by an idiot thug cop.
Even if audio was there. And a siren was heard by the marked vehicle, how does the driver know it's after him. He hasn't seen a marked car. Only an idiot with a gun that just cut him off.
sigh.... when he turns his head the cam does not always give as much vision as your eyes
and junior was stopped when the cop "cut him off" but nice try
and if you are driving like he was and you hear a siren and see a car coming up fast its for you, trust me i know. i hated that moment. and once i quit treating crowded roads as my adolescent playground it stopped being an issue. you see i was also once so self centered that i considered it my "RIGHT" to endanger other folks with my stupidity. i outgrew it. and i was never such a pansy that i cried when i got caught. back then we bragged about our high scores. my finale om I 95 nhad cops from 3 jurisdiction and 5 agencies and i wasn't fleeing/running from anyone. i pulled over first set of lights i saw.
truly i'd cut the hero some slack if he hadn't been such a pantywaist with the video edit. if you are gonna be deceitful you should at least be good at it. its disrespectful to your patsy's to try such a lame stunt. it means he thinks everyone else is stupid
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BMZ, I'm on your side on this one.
If piglets can record whatever they want in public areas, then so can I. If they can have dashcams, then I can have audio/video on my person or vehicle.
I do know that 6:45AM no-knocks would find me putting lead down my hallway since I live a clean an honorable life and have no reason to suspect a need to surrender an inch of my home to any authority figure. Enter uninvited at your fatal peril.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Russell_House
md is a two party consent state were all these kids asleep or in 3rd grade when linda tripp taped monica?
as to the rest?
WOLVERINES!!!
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Is there any case law for a cop being shot while trying to do a stop from an unmarked car in plainclothes?
Don't know of a traffic stop off the top of my head, but look around for the story of Fort Worth officer Lisa Ramsey; she chased a suspect into a convenience store in plainclothes with her gun drawn and raised, and the clerk shot her, thinking she was a robber. The clerk was either not charged or no-billed.
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No badge showing look at the belt closely
nope. Don't see it on the video. Even if there was a badge there. One can buy a badge online. Hell. I have a badge collection, old western, and the badges I wore in the Army and out
in the civi world. Plain clothes, vehicle not marked. I don't care if a badge is on his belt. I'm not looking at his belt. I'm wondering if this idiot who cut me off is about to carjacking or rob me, kidnap me or mine.
Geez. If the unmarked unit was on it's way. Wait for it. Let it do the stop
and coordinate with it. A few idiot cops have been shot by uniformed officers because they were in plain cloths.
I wish I lived in the world you do where cops do no wrong and do their jobs right. But reality sets in with incidents like this and the beating after the basketball game.
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md is a two party consent state were all these kids asleep or in 3rd grade when linda tripp taped monica?
as to the rest?
WOLVERINES!!!
Where's my consent form for the dashcams on the police cruisers, then?
State entities for whom two party consent is not required, do not object to their own surveillance devices. What harm are additional ones for additional audio/video vantages by the second party?
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It's not my responsibility to make sure someone is a cop. All I have to convince a jury is that I was in fear of my life. Like the above post about the store shoot. It's the officers job to ID himself as a
cop. That's why they make marked police cars and have police uniforms. They serve a purpose. As in to identify that you are a cop. Jumping out of a car, plain clothes is not going to
cut it. In my state alone, folks with badges and blue lights have pulled people over, cut them off. Did they suspects go to jail? No. They got raped.
But hey. He's a cop. Hell, he will probably get promoted m
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nope. Don't see it on the video. Even if there was a badge there. One can buy a badge online. Hell. I have a badge collection, old western, and the badges I wore in the Army and out
in the civi world. Plain clothes, vehicle not marked. I don't care if a badge is on his belt. I'm not looking at his belt. I'm wondering if this idiot who cut me off is about to carjacking or rob me, kidnap me or mine.
Geez. If the unmarked unit was on it's way. Wait for it. Let it do the stop
and coordinate with it. A few idiot cops have been shot by uniformed officers because they were in plain cloths.
I wish I lived in the world you do where cops do no wrong and do their jobs right. But reality sets in with incidents like this and the beating after the basketball game.
they use the unmarked in cases like that because the bad boys bolt and folks get hurt. you see those bad bad cops don't know lil johnny is really a good boy and its just youthful hi jinks. they tend to see it as an alleged adult acting in a reckless way and endangering other folks who didn't volunteer to be a part of lil jonnys playtime on the public roads. if they knew what a nice boy jonny was they would treat him much better but they didn't get the email his mommy sent outs saying "my moron son is gonna play on the roads today please be nice to him hes a good boy really"
and mommy and jonny both know he would never do this http://thecabin.net/news/local/2010-04-09/chase-ends-when-motorcycle-crashes-ambulance
heck jonnys was lucky he was on the highway in the area he was in the pg county police would stop you using the front bumper against your back wheel. that will leave a mark in your shorts if no where else . got me on a dirt bike once scared both me and the cop real bad. i finished up holding on to his front push bar with my feet under the front end. he thought he'd killed me. his eyes were like saucers when he came running around the front of the cruiser. he was so freaked out he didn't impound the bike or call my folks. i guess today i'd sue over that. but heck back then we figured he hit the siren we could stop. if we scooted the game was on and getting hurt was part of it.if i'd whined i'd have had to move or wear a dress. and while i have the legs for it its not my style
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Where's my consent form for the dashcams on the police cruisers, then?
State entities for whom two party consent is not required, do not object to their own surveillance devices. What harm are additional ones for additional audio/video vantages by the second party?
thats something the folks in md need to take up with the legislature don't hold your breath
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Don't know of a traffic stop off the top of my head, but look around for the story of Fort Worth officer Lisa Ramsey; she chased a suspect into a convenience store in plainclothes with her gun drawn and raised, and the clerk shot her, thinking she was a robber. The clerk was either not charged or no-billed.
My google-fu fails me, can't find an account of the shooting just her "inspirational" story. No word on what happened to the clerk. Apparently she was wearing a mask when she ran into the store.
There's a local LEO org that has her story, I found this line insulting.
Officer Ramsey was shot and disabled by a gunman during a robbery in 2003
while on-duty working in the Narcotic Unit.
BMZ: ignore CSD, he loves trolling and most mods don't read his posts because of how poorly written they are. Sometimes you just gotta ignore him.
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It's not my responsibility to make sure someone is a cop. All I have to convince a jury is that I was in fear of my life. Like the above post about the store shoot. It's the officers job to ID himself as a
cop.
drive 100 mph on the highway pulling wheelies get pulled over by a cop and shoot him good luck with that jury after the shoot. it might get a lotta plus 1's on the balkoesque sites but the jury is gonna break it off in you. don't get confused and try to equater it with the undercover who got shot after brandishing its not even close. this cop never pointed it and id'd himself. it woulda been better if the first words outa his mouth were statepolice but then we don't get all the audio available a jury might just think someone driving like that hearing a siren should expect the bell tolled for him.
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sniff
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the pg county police are a free fire zone for cop bashers . i went to high school there the brutality is not exaggerated and scary as this might sound they are orders of magnitude better now than in the 60's and 70's heck the dc cops were just as bad into the 70's
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he was a good boy too
http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-39916.html
its all just fun till they kill someone
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews By Clarence Williams and Elissa Silverman Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, May 31, 2007; Page B01 A police attempt to stop a speeding motorcycle touched off a gruesome series of collisions on both sides of the Capital Beltway in Prince George's County last night, killing two people and injuring 15 others, including two officers. The seven-vehicle pileup, one of the Beltway's most violent in recent memory, closed down all lanes of the inner loop in the Forestville area for nearly five hours and snarled traffic on both sides of the highway late into the night. The collisions occurred on both sides of the Capital Beltway near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit. Two of the 15 people injured were police officers. (By Toni L. Sandys -- The Washington Post) "I've been in law enforcement a long time and have been on a number of tough scenes. And this is a tough scene," said Prince George's Police Chief Melvin C. High. "Your thoughts go to [the injured and dead], and their families and friends." The accident was set in motion about 7 p.m. when a Prince George's police cruiser chasing the motorcycle on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit slammed into a vehicle after the motorcycle cut in front of the car, police said. The force of the impact caused the car to go airborne over the median's guardrail and into oncoming traffic on the inner loop. That caused a chain-reaction crash involving five southbound cars. The motorcycle sped off, and its driver remained at large, police said. Details about the two dead were unavailable last night. The 15 injured were taken to hospitals; one of them was said to be in critical condition. The collisions left vehicles strewn across the inner loop. One vehicle was overturned and bent like an accordion. Police said it was a sport-utility vehicle, but it was no longer identifiable. Rescuers ripped the tops off of at least two cars to free their occupants, said Cpl. Stephen Pacheco. The officers involved in the crash were traveling in two vehicles, officials said. One was pursuing the motorcycle; the other was off-duty and heading home on the inner loop. High said both officers were seriously injured, but the off-duty officer was hurt more severely. He was being treated last night at Prince George's Hospital Center. Neither officer's injuries were believed to be life-threatening, Pacheco said. Traffic on the Beltway was at a standstill for hours. The inner loop was closed near Exit 13, the ramp for Ritchie Marlboro Road. High said police captured the pursuit and ensuing crash with a video camera in a cruiser. Authorities will use the footage to try to identify the motorcycle and its driver, he said. Police also interviewed several witnesses. Pacheco said some lanes of the Beltway near the crash scene will be closed after the morning rush today as the investigation continues. The closures were expected to start about 10 a.m. The officer who pursed the motorcycle has been put on administrative leave, authorities said. Neither officer was immediately identified. The accident "illustrates the problem we have with speed and what can happen in an instant," High said. V-Dub
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at least this guy is man enough to be honest
http://motorcyclebloggers.com/2006/04/14/my-big-motorcycle-chase/
bold by me
It was Aug 13 1989 and a buddy & I were returning home from a day at the lake with some other friends. Responsibility was not part of my daily agenda. Anyway, we wer speeding about 15+ in a 40 mph zone and had a cop coming at us in oncoming traffic. He clocked us and signaled his lights. All of us were stopped in the middle of the road facing each other and he yelled “Pull over!!!”. For reasons I will get to in a minute, I clicked down into first gear and bailed - leaving my buddy and the cop with that WTF? look on their faces. Needless to say, he went after me and left my buddy on the side of the road. My buddy took off when the coast was clear and hid behind a nearby school with his Interceptor 500 (ooh yeah).
The chase begun. It started in Bloomfield Hills, MI in the middle of suburbia. I grew up and lived in a neighboring city called Troy, MI and knew every subdivision road on the north side which was close. After about three miles of the straight stuff, I bailed into my first subdivision. Keep in mind at this point I am in my neck of the woods being chased by another city’s cop. I knew several people in this sub and was hoping to have a big enough gap AND see a buddy with the garage open . I did manage to see a friend from school and found the dexterity to get a wave in.
Back onto the main roads, I ringed the neck of that 550 as fast as it would go. ENTER (MORE) STUPID PART: I was on a six-lane divided boulevard coming up to an intersection with an eight-lane blvd. At about 120mph I made the executive decision to run the red light at full tilt. My method you ask? I closed my eyes. No bullshit.
When I realized that I made it through just over 120mph I tucked back in for about half a mile or so. I looked back expecting to see nothing but a flashing light in the distance, but in fact I could read the ‘Chevy’ emblem on the hood of that Caprice. Again, knowing where I was I ducked into another subdivision about a mile up. This time I passed one of the buddy’s houses who I was with at the lake…and family friends…and their parents were out in the front yard! They knew the bike too. I ended up passing that buddy with the car full of friends I was at the lake with just after passing his parents…needless to say they were a little surprised at the company I had behind me.
That subdivision had gated walkways that connected corners of the sub together for foot (and soon to be motorcycle) traffic only. When I threw the bike onto the walkway, I looked back and saw the cop go up on someone’s lawn with the brakes locked. FINALLY some separation.
At that point I was only a couple of miles from my house via subdivisions and navigated home successfully. I left my bike out to let my buddy ‘know’ I made it.
NOTE: It is amazing the stupidity you will rationalize like leaving your bike out after a two-city chase just to let your buddy know you made it. I should have put it away.
Within minutes of being home, the car full of friends pulled up and we exchanged stories. Now my dad was home when I got there so we were all (6 of us) squirrel’d away in my bedroom. Next thing I know, the doorbell rang! The cops! Nope, my buddy’s parents who just saw me blaze by them with ‘company’. My dad answered the door, followed by me within 5 seconds. The father (again, family friends) looked at my dad, looked at me, then said to my dad “we should go fishing some time”. He made some small talk for about another minute then simply left…I never forgot that. Back in the bedroom still trying to unwind after about 20 minutes, my dad comes busting into my room “Why are the cops here?” I immediately start changing out of my riding gear and at the same time say “Dad, (I) got in a chase…tell them I’ve been here all day”. This was not a problem for him, me knowing that he does not like ‘the man’ and that he was a former hell-raiser. Oh yeah, my riding gear consisted of a helmet, kakhi shorts, sweatshirt, and dock-siders. Real smart.
To make a longer story only slightly longer, the collective adrenaline of me and the officers led to a “COPS” (the TV Show) worthy brawl with me losing. No punches or assault from either side, but more like WWF. I have never, ever in my life had that kind of adrenaline and the not-so-sane mindset to use it. I truly had retard strength in my corner. The first couple of officers that grabbed me found themselves thrown to the ground several feet away…then the pile-on happened with the slow crushing kneeling on my balls. I saw GAME OVER finally flash on the screen in front of me. I went to the county jail overnight, blah, blah, blah.
Some interesting outcomes:
1. They caught my buddy an he ratted on me - name, address, everything. That’s how I finally got caught.
2. Just before Wrestlemania, they told my dad to go inside and get my license. That was an interesting situation. I really hoped he would return with one. But he did not know at the time that mine was suspended. He found out pretty quick from there. That’s the reason I bailed - No license, insurance, tags, or endorsement.
3. The pursuing officer had many complaints filed against him from homeowners for ‘reckless’ driving. I later found out that my buddy’s dad, the same one that came over, organized the complaints. I never forgot that either.
4. The pursuing officer justified the chase by stating in the police report that I tried to run him over. I tried to run him over in his Caprice. While judgement at the time was not my strong suit, physics was. I tried to run him over in his Caprice with my motorcycle. Alright, I’ll move on.
5. They confiscated my bike with intent to auction it off. Little did they (or anyone besides me) know that I had not transferred the title yet. I called my friend who I bought the bike from and he went down to the police station claiming that he ‘loaned’ it to me. At the time, at least, they could not confiscate a ‘borrowed’ bike…similar to a lease vehicle. Got it back.
6. The tickets: reckless driving, failure to obey an officer’s signal (Not fleeing and alluding), driving on a suspended lisence, and no endorsement. The ruling - $400, 4 points and one year probation through Bloomfield Hills; Troy gave me resisting arrest good for one year probation and $100. Not too bad considering. I did have a high-priced lawyer that I made monthly installments to my dad until paid off. Ironically he lied in court and told the judge that I was “blowing off steam from a verbal fight with my dad”…a play using the divorced parents card.
7. Finally, a lifelong regret of that moment where I could have taken innocent lives when I ran that major intersection with my eyes closed. I still think about the ‘what could have been’ on that one. The fact that innocents could have been killed or injured I truly regret.
That was almost 17 years ago…I remember it like it was yesterday. I had my fifteen minutes of fame among my buddies and paid a fortune over time (higher insurance, etc) for that incident. I’m not proud of that episode and I never claim to be infallible, but it makes for a good story around the campfire.
My buddy and I went through a ‘cooling off’ period as I was pretty pissed that he gave me up. That didn’t last long because it wasn’t him who bailed and I recognized that soon enough. We are still lifelong friends.
I have since become pretty responsible in town. Out in the mountain twisties, not exactly. But I can honestly say that I am a “you play, you pay” kind of guy now. I have a lot more responsibility than I did back then. Getting hauled off to jail has much more consequences now that I am a contributor to society and my family. That is why I NEVER fill in the details to my wife after a mountain run. ;)
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If this was a legitimate traffic stop, why was the unmarked pursuing without it's lights on? Even after it maneuvered to obstruct any possible escape, the officer still doesn't activate his lights.
Also, IIRC, two party consent applies to transmitted conversations. Again, as covered in another thread, photographing or videotaping in a public area where one is without an expectation of privacy has been established as absolutely legal.
ETA: Can we get one of our local LEO's to chime in the lights thing please and give us some insight regarding them and policy for traffic stops?
Further Edit: Watching the video ala slow-mo. The badge on the waist is facing away from the viewer (cyclist) from the moment the cop leaves the unmarked and approaches the cyclist with a drawn gun until the cop rounds the front of the motorcycle and re-holsters the gun at which point it becomes visible.
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Don't care about other incidents, stories of youth. I care about this incident. Nice thread drift.
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Also, IIRC, two party consent applies to transmitted conversations. Again, as covered in another thread, photographing or videotaping in a public area where one is without an expectation of privacy has been established as absolutely legal.
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations
its a law maybe not a smart one but a law none the less like those evil laws keeping lil jonny from exercising his constitutional right to drive over a 100 and pop wheelies on a highway
can we see any lights on the undercover car from the angle of the vid? and as i pointed out earlier since the kinda heroes of the revolution that ride 100 and pop wheelies on the highway have a disturbing proclivity towards running when they see lights, its not unusual for them to do what they did. they get more stops successfully that way. not everyone sees that as bad or another example of the jackbooted thugs trampling a sovereign citizens god given constitutional right to drive however he wants on the highway. whats junior whining about t he cop got out with a gun? wasn't pointed at him cop never roughed him up? whats his real beef again? besides he got told "no jonny" in a mean voice that is. maybe that cops mommy never read doctor spock like jonnys mommy isn't all enlightened and freedom loving
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First off, I'll say that reckless driving on a public road is idiocy, whether it's on a motorcycle or in a car, and it certainly merits a ticket. If the guy actually was doing wheelies and then fleeing a MARKED unit, I'd say he ought to be toast, legally, with a fine and lots of license points.
BUT in reference to the original post . . .
1. OP asserts the officer was "visually estimating" the motorcycle's speed. Questionable basis for a stop.
2. Did officer's car have a dashcam? If so, is there dashcam video of motorcyclist doing wheelies?
3. There HAVE been cases locally of fake police in unmarked cars stopping & robbing people - I understand anyone who doesn't stop for an UNMARKED car.
4. No lights activated even on UNMARKED car, when the officer claims he's pursuing? This is so wrong it's not even funny.
5. Officer had NO business drawing a gun - his actions make him look like a carjacker, NOT an LEO. Assault or reckless endangerment charges are merited.
6. Is an UNSIGNED warrant even valid? Without a SIGNED warrant, forced entry by ANYONE would constitute a HOME INVASION, and justify a . . . vigorous . . . response.
7. Using trumped-up "wiretapping" charges for search & seizure ought to result in criminal prosecution and jail time for EVERY officer involved.
We don't know everything here, maybe the motorcyclist is a royal jackass . . . but the cops appear to have engaged in their own criminal - again, that's criminal - actions.
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what crime do you imagine the cops committed?
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Assault, reckless endangerment, failure to identify as an officer, false testimony (false wiretapping allegation), home invasion with invalid (unsigned) warrant, theft, unlawful detention . . . that enough for a start?
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Assault, reckless endangerment, failure to identify as an officer, false testimony (false wiretapping allegation), home invasion with invalid (unsigned) warrant, theft, unlawful detention . . . that enough for a start?
who was assaulted? how?
lets see he id's himself verbally and on a screen that makes him 6 inches high i saw the badge on his belt. wonder how much easier it was to see when it was full size.
and its been a while since i got popped in md but if i was doing what he was and saw that car and that guy i'd say shucks i'm had and thats a cop. it happens when you fight for freedom like that. kid might have some credibility with me if not for the editing tricks with the video
what false testimony? is it your contention md isn't a two party state? see the link above
i've not seen that warrant have you? you might be right neither of us have a way to know
who do you feel was unlawfully detained his mom and dad? that would depend on how the warrant thing plays out
did you have anything better than that?
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who was assaulted? how?
lets see he id's himself verbally and on a screen that makes him 6 inches high i saw the badge on his belt. wonder how much easier it was to see when it was full size.
and its been a while since i got popped in md but if i was doing what he was and saw that car and that guy i'd say shucks i'm had and thats a cop. it happens when you fight for freedom like that. kid might have some credibility with me if not for the editing tricks with the video
what false testimony? is it your contention md isn't a two party state? see the link above
i've not seen that warrant have you? you might be right neither of us have a way to know
who do you feel was unlawfully detained his mom and dad? that would depend on how the warrant thing plays out
did you have anything better than that?
Maryland's wiretapping statute also specifically states that the two party consent rule doesn't apply in situations where either party has no realistic expectations of privacy. That would include an officer on a public highway. This was noted by the judge who dropped the charges against the guy.
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Wiretapping charges sound bogus. If the warrant was actually unsigned that's a serious, serious matter. Haven't seen the evidence on that one yet.
As for the rest, if there's one thing I've learned on APS it's that arguing over cops doing traffic/drug stops is angels on the head of a pin stuff. Ranks right up there with debating religion and abortion in terms of unproductivity.
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Maryland's wiretapping statute also specifically states that the two party consent rule doesn't apply in situations where either party has no realistic expectations of privacy.
§ 10-402.
(a) Except as otherwise specifically provided in this subtitle it is unlawful for any person to:
(1) Wilfully intercept, endeavor to intercept, or procure any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication;
(2) Wilfully disclose, or endeavor to disclose, to any other person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this subtitle; or
(3) Wilfully use, or endeavor to use, the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this subtitle.
(b) Any person who violates subsection (a) of this section is guilty of a felony and is subject to imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
(c) (1) (i) It is lawful under this subtitle for an operator of a switchboard, or an officer, employee, or agent of a provider of wire or electronic communication service, whose facilities are used in the transmission of a wire or electronic communication to intercept, disclose, or use that communication in the normal course of his employment while engaged in any activity which is a necessary incident to the rendition of his service or to the protection of the rights or property of the provider of that service, except that a provider of wire communications service to the public may not utilize service observing or random monitoring except for mechanical or service quality control checks.
(ii) 1. It is lawful under this subtitle for a provider of wire or electronic communication service, its officers, employees, and agents, landlords, custodians or other persons to provide information, facilities, or technical assistance to persons authorized by federal or State law to intercept wire, oral, or electronic communications or to conduct electronic surveillance, if the provider, its officers, employees, or agents, landlord, custodian, or other specified person has been provided with a court order signed by the authorizing judge directing the provision of information, facilities, or technical assistance.
2. The order shall set forth the period of time during which the provision of the information, facilities, or technical assistance is authorized and specify the information, facilities, or technical assistance required. A provider of wire or electronic communication service, its officers, employees, or agents, or landlord, custodian, or other specified person may not disclose the existence of any interception or surveillance or the device used to accomplish the interception or surveillance with respect to which the person has been furnished an order under this subparagraph, except as may otherwise be required by legal process and then only after prior notification to the judge who granted the order, if appropriate, or the State's Attorney of the county where the device was used. Any such disclosure shall render the person liable for compensatory damages. No cause of action shall lie in any court against any provider of wire or electronic communication service, its officers, employees, or agents, landlord, custodian, or other specified person for providing information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with the terms of a court order under this subtitle.
(2) (i) This paragraph applies to an interception in which:
1. The investigative or law enforcement officer or other person is a party to the communication; or
2. One of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to the interception.
(ii) It is lawful under this subtitle for an investigative or law enforcement officer acting in a criminal investigation or any other person acting at the prior direction and under the supervision of an investigative or law enforcement officer to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication in order to provide evidence:
1. Of the commission of:
A. Murder;
B. Kidnapping;
C. Rape;
D. A sexual offense in the first or second degree;
E. Child abuse;
F. Child pornography under § 11-207, § 11-208, or § 11-208.1 of the Criminal Law Article;
G. Gambling;
H. Robbery under § 3-402 or § 3-403 of the Criminal Law Article;
I. A felony under Title 6, Subtitle 1 of the Criminal Law Article;
J. Bribery;
K. Extortion;
L. Dealing in a controlled dangerous substance, including a violation of § 5-617 or § 5-619 of the Criminal Law Article;
M. A fraudulent insurance act, as defined in Title 27, Subtitle 4 of the Insurance Article;
N. An offense relating to destructive devices under § 4-503 of the Criminal Law Article;
O. Sexual solicitation of a minor under § 3-324 of the Criminal Law Article;
P. An offense relating to obstructing justice under § 9-302, § 9-303, or § 9-305 of the Criminal Law Article; or
Q. A conspiracy or solicitation to commit an offense listed in items A through P of this item; or
2. If:
A. A person has created a barricade situation; and
B. Probable cause exists for the investigative or law enforcement officer to believe a hostage or hostages may be involved.
(3) It is lawful under this subtitle for a person to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where the person is a party to the communication and where all of the parties to the communication have given prior consent to the interception unless the communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of this State.
(4) (i) It is lawful under this subtitle for a law enforcement officer in the course of the officer's regular duty to intercept an oral communication if:
1. The law enforcement officer initially lawfully detained a vehicle during a criminal investigation or for a traffic violation;
2. The law enforcement officer is a party to the oral communication;
3. The law enforcement officer has been identified as a law enforcement officer to the other parties to the oral communication prior to any interception;
4. The law enforcement officer informs all other parties to the communication of the interception at the beginning of the communication; and
5. The oral interception is being made as part of a video tape recording.
(ii) If all of the requirements of subparagraph (i) of this paragraph are met, an interception is lawful even if a person becomes a party to the communication following:
1. The identification required under subparagraph (i)3 of this paragraph; or
2. The informing of the parties required under subparagraph (i)4 of this paragraph.
(5) It is lawful under this subtitle for an officer, employee, or agent of a governmental emergency communications center to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where the officer, agent, or employee is a party to a conversation concerning an emergency.
(6) (i) It is lawful under this subtitle for law enforcement personnel to utilize body wires to intercept oral communications in the course of a criminal investigation if there is reasonable cause to believe that a law enforcement officer's safety may be in jeopardy.
(ii) Communications intercepted under this paragraph may not be recorded, and may not be used against the defendant in a criminal proceeding.
(7) It is lawful under this subtitle for a person:
(i) To intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that the electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
(ii) To intercept any radio communication that is transmitted:
1. By any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
2. By any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;
3. By a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio services; or
4. By any marine or aeronautical communications system;
(iii) To intercept any wire or electronic communication the transmission of which is causing harmful interference to any lawfully operating station or consumer electronic equipment, to the extent necessary to identify the source of the interference; or
(iv) For other users of the same frequency to intercept any radio communication made through a system that utilizes frequencies monitored by individuals engaged in the provision or the use of the system, if the communication is not scrambled or encrypted.
(8) It is lawful under this subtitle:
(i) To use a pen register or trap and trace device as defined under § 10-4B-01 of this title; or
(ii) For a provider of electronic communication service to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was initiated or completed in order to protect the provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire or electronic communication, or a user of that service, from fraudulent, unlawful, or abusive use of the service.
(9) It is lawful under this subtitle for a person to intercept a wire or electronic communication in the course of a law enforcement investigation of possible telephone solicitation theft if:
(i) The person is an investigative or law enforcement officer or is acting under the direction of an investigative or law enforcement officer; and
(ii) The person is a party to the communication and participates in the communication through the use of a telephone instrument.
(10) It is lawful under this subtitle for a person to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication in the course of a law enforcement investigation in order to provide evidence of the commission of vehicle theft if:
(i) The person is an investigative or law enforcement officer or is acting under the direction of an investigative or law enforcement officer; and
(ii) The device through which the interception is made has been placed within a vehicle by or at the direction of law enforcement personnel under circumstances in which it is thought that vehicle theft may occur.
(d) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, a person or entity providing an electronic communication service to the public may not intentionally divulge the contents of any communication (other than one to the person or entity providing the service, or an agent of the person or entity) while in transmission on that service to any person or entity other than an addressee or intended recipient of the communication or an agent of the addressee or intended recipient.
(2) A person or entity providing electronic communication service to the public may divulge the contents of a communication:
(i) As otherwise authorized by federal or State law;
(ii) To a person employed or authorized, or whose facilities are used, to forward the communication to its destination; or
(iii) That were inadvertently obtained by the service provider and that appear to pertain to the commission of a crime, if the divulgence is made to a law enforcement agency.
(e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection or in subsection (f) of this section, a person who violates subsection (d) of this section is subject to a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both.
(2) If an offense is a first offense under paragraph (1) of this subsection and is not for a tortious or illegal purpose or for purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage or private commercial gain, and the wire or electronic communication with respect to which the offense occurred is a radio communication that is not scrambled or encrypted, and:
(i) The communication is not the radio portion of a cellular telephone communication, a public land mobile radio service communication, or a paging service communication, the offender is subject to a fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both; or
(ii) The communication is the radio portion of a cellular telephone communication, a public land mobile radio service communication, or a paging service communication, the offender is subject to a fine of not more than $500.
(3) Unless the conduct is for the purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage or private financial gain, conduct which would otherwise be an offense under this subsection is not an offense under this subsection if the conduct consists of or relates to the interception of a satellite transmission that is not encrypted or scrambled and that is transmitted:
(i) To a broadcasting station for purposes of retransmission to the general public; or
(ii) As an audio subcarrier intended for redistribution to facilities open to the public, but not including data transmissions or telephone calls.
(f) (1) A person who engages in conduct in violation of this subtitle is subject to suit by the federal government or by the State in a court of competent jurisdiction, if the communication is:
(i) A private satellite video communication that is not scrambled or encrypted and the conduct in violation of this subtitle is the private viewing of that communication, and is not for a tortious or illegal purpose, or for purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage, or private commercial gain; or
(ii) A radio communication that is transmitted on frequencies allocated under Subpart D of Part 74 of the Rules of the Federal Communications Commission that is not scrambled or encrypted and the conduct in violation of this subtitle is not for a tortious or illegal purpose or for purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage or private commercial gain.
(2) (i) The State is entitled to appropriate injunctive relief in an action under this subsection if the violation is the person's first offense under subsection (e)(1) of this section and the person has not been found liable in a prior civil action under § 10-410 of this subtitle.
(ii) In an action under this subsection, if the violation is a second or subsequent offense under subsection (e)(1) of this section or if the person has been found liable in a prior civil action under § 10-410 of this subtitle, the person is subject to a mandatory civil fine of not less than $500.
(3) The court may use any means within its authority to enforce an injunction issued under paragraph (2)(i) of this subsection, and shall impose a civil fine of not less than $500 for each violation of an injunction issued under paragraph (2)(i) of this subsection.
theres the statute where is that reasonable expectation of privacy mentioned?
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its a law maybe not a smart one but a law none the less like those evil laws keeping lil jonny from exercising his constitutional right to drive over a 100 and pop wheelies on a highway
Read what you cite, that page refers to two party consent states in regards to telephone calls, not in person recordings out in public.
“The judge who released me looked at the paperwork and said she didn’t see where I violated the wiretapping law.”
Do you know the law better than a judge? The judge is of the opinion that he didn't violate the wire tapping law, so what makes you think he did?
what crime do you imagine the cops committed?
I don't know the legal language for it but how about using their authority as police officers for personal retaliation.
Deprivation of rights under color of authority, something along those lines. Here just in case you missed it in the article.
Ten days later, Uhler discovered that Graber posted the video online. Two videos. A longer one without audio and a shorter one with audio.
That prompted Uhler to issue an arrest warrant against Graber, citing that “Graber did not inform Tfc. Uhler that he was recording him by video or audio, thus violating criminal law 10-402(b).”
He also tacked on the charges of “reckless driving” and “negligent driving” to the arrest warrant.
And then six cops raided his parent’s home where Graber is living early one morning.
When he realized that Uhler posted video of him online that made him look like a thug he decided he needed to show him who was really in control, or maybe he wanted to damage Uhler's credibility by having him arrested.
How can you tack on a reckless driving and negligent driving charges 10 days after you pull someone over? Can you say throwing sh!t at the wall to see what will stick? If Uhler's driving was that bad, the cop would have gave him those tickets right there on the spot not 10 days after the fact.
How do you explain the 10 day gap between the incident and the reckless driving charge C&D?
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<snip>
Sorry, I had my facts slightly wrong.
Rather, the courts of Maryland have interpreted the law to dis-include cases where the parties involved have an unreasonable expectation of privacy.
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states/maryland.html
State courts have interpreted the laws to protect communications only when the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and thus, where a person in a private apartment was speaking so loudly that residents of an adjoining apartment could hear without any sound enhancing device, recording without the speaker’s consent did not violate the wiretapping law. Malpas v. Maryland, 695 A.2d 588 (Md. Ct. Spec. App. 1997); see also Benford v. American Broadcasting Co., 649 F. Supp. 9 (D. Md. 1986) (salesman’s presentation in stranger’s home not assumed to carry expectation of privacy).
An officer operating in a public area has no reasonable expectation of privacy. In addition, in cases where there is a unhidden video camera in a public place, such as the one mounted on Graber's helmet, consent is implied.
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what crime do you imagine the cops committed?
Personally, I am more concerned about the unsigned search warrant and added charges after the video was posted.
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CSD:
The judge who ordered cycle-boy's release does not agree with you that public photography, video, and audio recording are illegal in the state of MD. There is no expectation of privacy in public places, or we'd see all LEO dash-cams, security cams, etc. outlawed in MD.
The first two times I watched the video(s), I did not see the badge and second time it was full-screen (22" LCD) HD. Also, the cop does not ID himself verbally until AFTER he put hands on motorcycle-boy & his bike. On top of the cut-off with the auto, this would be a good way to get killed here in Texas.
<watches short video again in glorious 22" LCD HD>
The first short glimpse of the badge is 13 seconds into the short video, after the officer laid hands on cycle-boy. If you see it before then, you must have X-ray vision. Good thing he's in MD, that sort of sloppy, sloppy work would get his *expletive deleted*ss shot sooner or later here in TX.
Yeah, cutting someone off with a deadly weapon (unmarked police auto), not announcing one is LEO, not displaying ID, drawing down on someone, and then laying hands on them & theirs is a good way to get shot down here.
if your own business is driving triple digits and popping wheelies in traffic you might figure getting popped as a cost of doing business.
<watches long video again in glorious 22" LCD HD>
I saw the unmarked car in the longer video, when he overtook & passed it. I don't recall seeing any wheelies. Care to tell where (mm:ss) you see them? Perhaps one reason they conducted the raid is that the video evidence does not back up the officer's claims of wheelies?
Also, the speedo is blurry/glared out at times, but can be seen. Cycle-boy is usually dong high-70s to 80MPH and gets up over 100MPH passing the RV, which blocks LOS to autos to the left & behind for a bit. He looks back once on the off-ramp and once before he gets on the on-ramp and looks to the side on lane-changes. What I didn't see is him looking back over his shoulder a bunch as if to judge the location of pursuers.
Here in DFW, I can't get a cop to nab me for going 80MPH on the freeway. I stopped using my radar/laser detector years ago since the enforced speed limit is above what I would comfortably dive. MD may be different.
I would have no problem with MD LEOs pulling dude over for speeding if they were driving a marked car or an unmarked car with lights & such going. They way the officer in the video did it is not only thuggish, but sand-poundingly stupid.
Drawing down and placing hands on someone with no visible LEO ID and without IDing ones self verbally as LEO? This is not smart at all. Matter of fact, I recall an IDPA scenario similar to that (no declaration of ID by the cardboard targets, of course, which were up close & personal).
CSD, the main problem I see with this incident is the (anonymous judge) search warrant, using false pretenses (by the LEOs) to get it, and the intimidation of those who dare to record LEO action. It is intimidation, plain & simple. The LEOs cared not a whit about the video until it came out and showed them to be idjits.
I don't have a problem with them stopping a guy who went 100MPH+, though the method used showed a load of *expletive deleted*it for brains and a death wish, were he to move to a free-er state.
Also, it has been stated before that your experiences with LEOs are not typical. I don't expect to be cut off, drawn down on, and manhandled by folks. LEO or otherwise. Not IDing himself as a LEO until after he laid hands on me & mine would result in very bad things occurring. I don't ride a MC, but a pistol or revolver is always at hand while I drive my autos...if I didn't just squash the potential car-jacker like a bug between my front bumper and his own auto.
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not in person recordings out in public.
[/b
could you show me that?
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Regolith has posted the applicable case law.
And really, by your definition any video taken off one's own property that in any way captures another person who has not explicitly given consent would be a felony. That's pretty obviously not the case.
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How do you explain the 10 day gap between the incident and the reckless driving charge C&D?
in maryland its not that uncommon. they started doing it right after that other hero hit the bicyclist on wisconsin ave drove 3/4 mile with her body protruding from the windshield as she bled out then dumped her to die in the boyscouts of america parking lot. he went home they snagged him wrote him up for a series of charges. he beat the vehicular homicide charge by paying the first ticket and claiming double jeopardy on the more serious charge. was it payback in this case? probably but its not illegal. junior wants to play and try to game the system he should not whine when the game gets played.
he tried to get cute posting the edited video if i was his dad he would be living elsewhere after this stunt. bet that is gonna be a real career enhancer
Yeah, cutting someone off with a deadly weapon (unmarked police auto), not announcing one is LEO, not displaying ID, drawing down on someone, and then laying hands on them & theirs is a good way to get shot down here.
'
'biker boy was stopped when the cop pulled up what is the definition of cutting off in texas? and with your 22 inches of screen how does that scale to a 5 something guy?
Drawing down and placing hands on someone with no visible LEO ID and without IDing ones self verbally as LEO? define drawing down is that removing the gun from the holster? is that texas rules?
and at what point did he lay hands on johnny? before or after he id'd himself and reholstered? be hard toay hands with the gun in one hand
and junior owned up to the wheelies in one account i saw one short one in the vid but it is hard to see well with a helmet cam huh.
the only part that troubles me is the unsigned warrant and so far the only source touting that has credibility issues with me
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i've got traffic charges up to 21 days after the offense and other charges up to 90 waiting for the lab results. in todays world the prosecution and cops hold lil conferences and weigh the evidence and their chances. its quite the lil dance. junior got a speeding ticket he tried to get cute in a way designed to negatively impact someone elses career/family. they broke it off in lil johnny. oh well sucks to be him. the dishonesty implicit in his edit makes him a waste of air to me. he makes a choice to behave badly gets smacked on his pee pee and trys to strike back. i hope he wasn't gonna be a career military guy. or at least wasn't looking for rank or clearances
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md is a two party consent state were all these kids asleep or in 3rd grade when linda tripp taped monica?
as to the rest?
WOLVERINES!!!
Fearnow v. C & P Telephone Co., 104 Md. App. 1, 33, 655 A.2d 1 (1995), aff’d, 342 Md. 363, 676 A.2d 65 (1996)
Must have a reasonable expectation of privacy for wiretapping law to apply.
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Thin.
Blue.
Line. Is falling down. No way you can justify this idiots actions, unless you'd do the same and approve of thuggish behavior, ignoring basic police procedure and wiping your ass with the civil rights
of the suspect. Interesting
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in an alternate universe the punk kid riding 100 mph through traffic and doing the sneaky edit job is a hero and the cop who arrested him without hurting anything but lil jonnies feelings is a thug. my how the world has changed some of the kids today wouldn't have made it through puberty in my time
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And yet in another alternate universe, thug idiot cops such as this one, would not have made it home that day.
Don't ya love playing "alternate universe"
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truly society has changed when i acted like that i got locked up and nasty stories in the paper in todays world you post video and get cheerleaders not sure thats improvement
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You just don't get it. If the kid was speeding, so what. He was in the wrong. The actions of the badge wearing citizen in plain clothes and an unmarked car are what we are discussing. Had this been in any CCW states, idiot cop might have ended up dead. And all the cop forums would have their EOW threads. Or, if it were me. I would have just ran the guy over with my vehicle, he looked like he was going to rob me and he had a gun.
It amazes me that only non badge wearing folk can do stupid things. Once you get a badge, no matter how stupid you handle a situation, no biggie. Point out the citizen.
What about the false reporting that he didn't draw his gun? Or did the kid Photoshop the video? Maybe the cop had help from his fellow MSP officers that tried to cover up the college game beating.
You want the kid to learn a lesson. And you could not give a damn if the idiot with a badge learns anything. :facepalm:
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Those who enforce the law should be beyond reproach. Sadly that isn't the case and this event is a sterling example of it in practice.
If he was speeding, then he should be cited for such. Citizens should obey the rule of law.
However, enforcing the law does not excuse any police officer for breaking it themselves.
Lets recap shall we?
Motorcyclist:
-Speeding
-Reckless Driving
Unmarked Police Officer:
-Assault
-Reckless Endangerment
-Brandishing
-Perjury
-Home Invasion
-Grand Larceny
-False Arrest
How does the former justify the latter?
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where did he deny drawing? i missed that? and i know its not what you wanna hear but in the universe i was stupid in, and as stupid and chemically addled as we were we were able to play connect the brain cell well enough to realize that if you drive like that and you get a car that looks like a plain wrapper catch up with you and a guy with a gun and a badge on his belt jumps out hes probably the cops. i know the internets made young folks smarter and all but we managed to make those connections before there was cable. i know the details are confusing but the cops kicking butt after the game are pg county cops. a police force that has a place in the hall of fame for cops that kick butts. 30 years ago one of them kicked the snot outa a dc police capt in uniform during a dispute. this kid was lucky the state cops are actually pretty decent its a case of you get what you pay for. i don't think the kid photo shopped the vid just did a kid move with the audio. the biggest problem with being a young punk kid is you think other folks are stupid and don't catch your nonsense. experience is a terrible thing it makes catching cs moves too easy. early one of the other cheerleaders tried to claim the cop was guilty of assault they seem to have melted away. i know its a female dog being young and having authority issues been there done that. i think the worst thing is junior turned a misdemeanor into a felony literally. he got a traffic ticket tried to play victim with the other girls on the internet. didn't consider that he was screwing with the cops career. found out that the big dog bites and he gets a felony bust to take through life.thats a career enhancer. mommy and daddy got jacked up too. well i feel for them a lil but they raised a punk kid and let him live at home so you reap what you sow. all because he wanted to use the roads as his play pen then sniveled and tried to be clever/sneaky when he got his hand slapped. reminds me of ramos and campeon. they did the same thing turned a minor screw up that at worst woulda got one or both of em a few days off unpaid tried to fix it and cover it up and ended up in the big house. its a very common mistake.
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We are not talking about your past actions or enlightenment. We are
talking about a recent incident about an idiot MSP officer
Read:
That was when Graber was already exiting the interstate. When he came to a complete stop behind the other cars at the exit, Uhler cut him off and hopped out of his car with a gun drawn, never flashing a badge and not identifying himself as an officer until several seconds later.
Uhler never mentioned that he pulled out his gun in his report.
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-Assault
-Reckless Endangerment
-Brandishing
-Perjury
-Home Invasion
-Grand Larceny
-False Arrest
assault who?when?
endangerment? yea wheelies can get you that charge but his riding really wasn't that bad
brandishing? lol thats funny
perjury? who lied in court or on a legal document? i don't think juniors hiding the audio rises quite to that level yet
home invasion? we need to hear more about that warrant and from someone other than lil jonnie
grand larceny? the computers? see above
false arrest? what jonnie wasn't speeding?
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We are not talking about your past actions or enlightenment. We are
talking about a recent incident about an idiot MSP officer
Read:
That was when Graber was already exiting the interstate. When he came to a complete stop behind the other cars at the exit, Uhler cut him off and hopped out of his car with a gun drawn, never flashing a badge and not identifying himself as an officer until several seconds later.
Uhler never mentioned that he pulled out his gun in his report.
you've seen uhlers report? ummm i know everyones all knotted over him being cut off but thats been a pretty standard waty for cops to pull you over if they think you might flee they pull in front of you and another pulls up behind you. what constitutional right does that trample?
and as you mentioned lil jonnie was at a stop so the egregious ZOMG CUTTING OFF happened with the bike sitting still and the cop car moving slow enough to stop right quick. while your concern for jonnies safety is touching i gotta giggle at trying to play him as the endangered victim of this reckless behavior after he just played go fast racer through traffic.
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jonnie should stay outa va or drive slow md is a day at the beach in court comparitively.
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assault who?when?
endangerment? yea wheelies can get you that charge but his riding really wasn't that bad
brandishing? lol thats funny
perjury? who lied in court or on a legal document? i don't think juniors hiding the audio rises quite to that level yet
home invasion? we need to hear more about that warrant and from someone other than lil jonnie
grand larceny? the computers? see above
false arrest? what jonnie wasn't speeding?
Assault: An act that causes one to apprehend an immediate and personal violence. The aggressive maneuver with the vehicle and the approach with a deadly weapon without following proper procedure to let the subject know they were a police officer (no lights, no uniform and a badge obscured from view). Not to be confused with Assault and Battery.
Endangerment: Making a drastic and unnecessary maneuver with his vehicle when the suspect was already at a full stop at a light with traffic in front of them. The officer comes close to clipping the person.
Brandishing: Displaying a firearm with the intention to intimidate or coerce without proper cause.
Perjury: Intentionally omitting significant information from an official document.
Home Invasion and Grand Larceny covered by the unsigned warrant and the improper seizure of personal property.
False Arrest: Placing him under arrest under false pretenses, in this case for "wire tapping," something already asserted by a Judge.
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Assault: An act that causes one to apprehend an immediate and personal violence. The aggressive maneuver with the vehicle and the approach with a deadly weapon without following proper procedure to let the subject know they were a police officer (no lights, no uniform and a badge obscured from view). Not to be confused with Assault and Battery.
Endangerment: Making a drastic and unnecessary maneuver with his vehicle when the suspect was already at a full stop at a light with traffic in front of them. The officer comes close to clipping the person.
Brandishing: Displaying a firearm with the intention to intimidate or coerce without proper cause.
Perjury: Intentionally omitting significant information from an official document.
Home Invasion and Grand Larceny covered by the unsigned warrant and the improper seizure of personal property.
False Arrest: Placing him under arrest under false pretenses, in this case for "wire tapping," something already asserted by a Judge.
then every arrest is an assault?
drastic maneuver? really? kids stopped cop cars a couple feet at least away shucks junior was closer to trucks on the highway at a pretty good clip
brandishing? cop with gun out not pointed during an arrest is brandishing? reach much?
what official document? and what was omitted?
when we get to the warrant surely our hero has it posted to show how he was maligned and mistreated can you help us see it? i've looked i can't find the judges ruling either. could get interesting
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Yeah, cutting someone off with a deadly weapon (unmarked police auto), not announcing one is LEO, not displaying ID, drawing down on someone, and then laying hands on them & theirs is a good way to get shot down here.
'
'biker boy was stopped when the cop pulled up what is the definition of cutting off in texas? and with your 22 inches of screen how does that scale to a 5 something guy?
Not sure, but it was pretty dang close. Close enough that cycle-boy felt the need to back up his bike a bit.
Drawing down and placing hands on someone with no visible LEO ID and without IDing ones self verbally as LEO? define drawing down is that removing the gun from the holster? is that texas rules?
and at what point did he lay hands on johnny? before or after he id'd himself and reholstered? be hard toay hands with the gun in one hand
and junior owned up to the wheelies in one account i saw one short one in the vid but it is hard to see well with a helmet cam huh.
the only part that troubles me is the unsigned warrant and so far the only source touting that has credibility issues with me
You are unfamiliar with the term "drawing down?" Read some of THR, I'm sure you'll figure it out. It is a threat of violence. Were this me, with my history, driving one of my vehicles, he would have gotten smooshed between my truck's front bumper and his auto. Given the video, lack of IDing himself, the drawn weapon, and my locality, I bet a jury would see it as a reasonable response to multiple serious threats. Folks are both "law & order" and understanding of self-defense around here. They send lots folks to the Big Shot down in Huntsville and it has to be quite outrageous for someone acting in self-defense to be prosecuted past the grand jury. The LEO gave no indication he was a LEO and not a car jacker. Stupid hurts. He'd have himself to blame for the squooshing, were he to survive.
Watch the video again or read what I wrote in my previous post. The officer laid hands on cycle-boy before verbally IDing himself and before the badge was visible. As has been written by another poster, that sort of damnfoolery can get one shot and the shooter no-billed from the grand jury in these parts.
If you have a mm:ss of the wheelie I'd appreciate it, because that does pertain to the officer's veracity. If it occurred, it is in line with his accusations. If not, it would be another instance where his statements are at odds with the evidence & law. I was considerate enough to provide you with the time I first got a glimpse of the badge.
Detailed accounts of your past infractions are not particularly pertinent, unless the accumulation of them prevents you from legally owning a firearm. That would account for unfamiliarity with firearm terminology and such.
Again, arresting cycle-boy for speeding & related charges is reasonable. The method used to arrest him was in no way reasonable and very, very stupid. Lying/perjury on a warrant is a much more serious issue, as is the intimidation of getting a search warrant and executing it for perfectly legal actions (video & audio i a public place) after they are posted to the net and embarrass the not-so-bright LEO.
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Things that stuck out to me:
- plain clothes officer
- unmarked vehicle
- marked vehicle near-by
- visual estimate, no radar gun
- unsubstantiated claim that Graber was doing wheelie at estimated speed of 100mph
- unknown whether marked vehicle ran lights/sirens
- brandished firearm
- possible brief delay in Uhler identifying himself as a police officer
- possible omission of brandishing his firearm in official report
- cited Graber for doing 80mph in 65mph zone despite estimated speed of 100mph
- over a week passes before warrant is issued for Graber
- reckless driving and negligent driving added to charges
- wiretapping added to charges
- Graber spends 26 hours in prison
- his parents home is raided by 6 police officers
- his mother and sister are detained for an hour-and-a-half
- 4 computers are seized from the home
- Graber faces possible felony charges
- only got to stay home that day due to his gall bladder surgery
- bond set at $15,000
- Graber admitted to speeding, admitted to passing a marked vehicle, turned himself in, and is still sitting around waiting to see if he will be prosecuted
- releasing judge stated he did not violate Maryland's wiretapping laws
This was all for speeding. It certainly wasn't about the video footage, since it was discovered over a week later and didn't violate any laws according to the only judge that we know was involved in any of this mess.
I don't think the officer did anything too wrong by cutting him off on the exit in stopped traffic. Putting his lights on during the brief pursuit would have been ideal, but we're beyond that point by now. I don't think the officer did anything wrong by writing Graber a speeding ticket. Giving him a warning or letting the marked vehicle take over would have been ideal since the speed was estimated, but we're beyond that point now. I could even see the charges for reckless driving and negligent driving if Graber was actually doing a wheelie at 100mph on the interstate. Presenting these charges with the speeding ticket would have been ideal, but we're beyond that point by now.
Then the officer brandishes his firearm. For a routine traffic stop. For speeding. This is our first hint at what is yet to come. After this, and the officer's discovery of the video footage, the fit hit the shan. The video footage has nothing to do with his speeding ticket, and doesn't need any further discussion. It did not violate any laws. The only issues that need discussion are the initial stop and the added charges and their validity.
If Uhler really felt the need to take the stop, after cutting Graber off on the exit, he should've been brandishing his badge, not his firearm. He should've talked to Graber calmly and waited for the marked vehicle. He should've added reckless driving and negligent driving to the speeding ticket at the time of the stop.
No delay, no warrant, no seizure, no detainment, no family, no lockup, no bond, no judge, and no wiretapping charges should've been involved in this case.
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Just to add, in some states, the drawing of a firearm is still in the "Officer presence/verbal persuasion" end of the force continuum, and officers are free to draw when they feel it is necessary, even during a "routine"(nothing is routine) traffic stop.
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CSD: speaking of cheaps*** moves and making accusations that are proven false then melting away, tell us again how Maryland is a two party consent wiretapping state.
Also, I understand cops used to beat people all the time. You keep saying it like it's a good thing.
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for starters look at the still pic in the ops link for a good look at the distance from cop car to bike the sites been updated to include a hard to read scan of the police report. couple things that might leave a mark junior went flying past the marked car in the median cross over
oops i didn't know it was the cops takes a holiday it would be good to see the vid from the marked car it would show how soon it arrived. r
http://carlosmiller.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AnthonyGraber.jpg take a look see what you think and then look at the long vid again as far as i can tell the cop ids himself at 6 seconds in after getting out and the kid revving and backing up. i know jonnies a good boy but revving and backing up is sometimes a precursor to fleeing. by the time kid turn around at 21 seconds the marked car is completely stopped with the cop already getting out has jonnie denied the wheelie? i kinda wish he would its real clear on his own vid at 35 second roughly hes in the right lane passing a truck on the right while riding it good move and tragically it was at this point he passed the first trooper. in the unmarked ouch! excuse me he passed a bus and the wheelie lasted almost 5 seconds from 33 to 38. the irony is he posted the evidence of his crime on the net. and at 1.10 he passes the cop in the median and coincidentally slows down because we know he never knew about the cops at 3.03 see him turn his head and eyeball the unmarked coming up fast at 3.02 if you freeze you can see the plain wrapper coming up its a curious thing thats the only time he ever turns his head all the way around. if you look at 3.02 at the plain wrapper look at the right edge as we view it from the front i can't tell if the marked car is behind him blocked at thats a bit showing or not
at 3.12 3.14 its the closest the cop gets to our poor jonnie
at 3.15 the cops left foot is hitting the ground and lil jonnie is reving and backing up no gun or badge visible yet
3.16 cops just cleared leather is advancing kids backing cop is saying something but we get no audio on this tape unlike the miracle tape that he puts out with his whinefest
at 3.19 it appears to be when hes saying hes a cop as best as i can tell from comparing with the miracle vid
at 21 the cop is looking past kid at what i assume is the other cop car gun in hand pointed down
by 23-24 he reholsters
at 33 hes off the bike turns his head and we see marked car stationary
by 39 its over other cop is walking up
you think he was backing because the cop was too close? i thought he was gonna grow a set and take off if he had he woulda got away. unless you wreck they can't catch you and their supervisors will call off the chase rather than let another family get killed.
last i checked he could pull his gun in that kinda situation they sure used to pistols shot guns knock you off the bike to make sure you don't scoot. thats why i started turning the bike off and dropping the keys where they could see it hated picking up the bikes a couple of em i was marginal on picking it up if there was a slope.
i think junior knew that was a cop i think the reason the audio is gone is either to get rid of the sirens or to get rid of him going shucks the cops when he passed the marked one. its not uncommon for them then and now to come up on you sans lights and sirens so they can at least get your tags before you leave em in the dust once the chase starts officially they come on up to that point your riding along hoping he didn't get you. when i watch the vid its like deja vue been there done that. in the old days they'd chase you till all the red lights on the dash board came on at the car wouldn't go. even way back in the 70's a hot bike was faster than the police chopper and in some cases went faster than the old radar units readout went. i got one where they did the speed by taking the time of first call at king street and i 95 to the stopped call past quantico it was 12 mins and a few seconds and they did the math time and distance and wrote me that way
i fully understand the need for speed just take your licks when you get caught
that stop was mild compared to many i've seen no laying on of hands he got to go home keep his bike heck what was he whimpering about again?
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§21–901.1.
(a) A person is guilty of reckless driving if he drives a motor vehicle:
(1) In wanton or willful disregard for the safety of persons or property; or
(2) In a manner that indicates a wanton or willful disregard for the safety of persons or property.
(b) A person is guilty of negligent driving if he drives a motor vehicle in a careless or imprudent manner that endangers any property or the life or person of any individual.
and it carrys up to 12 months same as va though va will give you the 12 months md almost never does
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just for you balog :angel: =D
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states/maryland.html
heck the kid admitted to the cop doing 85 and the cop cut him a break then he went home and girled up. poor decision making 101. seen that happen a few time with smart entitled folks this one is a classic though. heck it could get worse i hope he takes it to trial. i wana see him defend riding a wheelie past a bus passing it on the right at that. and putting it on the internet? mi mean do guys need cheerleaders that bad we did our bragging in bars and bike clubs, i can see why junior can't go to a clubhouse but isn't there a tapas bar he can puff at? is mr henrys loft still open for him?
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From the link...
State courts have interpreted the laws to protect communications only when the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy
Edit: which means the wiretapping charges were trumped up and invalid on their face. Maybe you're ok with cops pulling felony charges out of their asses to harass people (just when they have it coming tho, right?) but I personally prefer cops to charge people for things that are, you know, actually illegal.
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thats right but the laws still on the books and they can still charge you. you can beat it most often. but you can't beat the ride. and junior took mom and pops for the ride too
in the real world you know what this cop is in real trouble for? being too nice. he gave a snot nosed kid a real break dropped the miles over didn't tag him with all the hard charges didn't rough him up or impound his bike heck junior got a ticket and went home to momma. bet the next crotch rocket jockey gets no slack at all. lil girls like him poison the well for everyone after them. i bet the other cops are telling this cop see! thats what happens when you cut an ahole some slack.
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so a 54-5 second wheelie at 100 whats that an eighth of a mile on a highway with your wheel in the air? i didn't try to count the vehicles he passed i figured the bus was enough well that and the cop car. poor situational awareness that but when your having that much fun its understandable.
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So trumping up charges you know are false to harass people you don't like is ok with you? Duly noted.
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charges weren't false he was charged under existing law. the judge tossed the case that happens at some point they change the law. he did tape right? the law says two party. heck they mighta got a judge that let it stick that happens a couple times and they change the lil notation about " courts and reasonable expectation of privacy" to a new notation. unless the legislature acts
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Oh, the joy of HD cameras :cool: :cool:
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oh my! but i thought jonnie was a good boy. were i not of such a trusting nature i'd toss about statements like folks putting their agenda on before the read and then reading into stories that which feeds their fire.
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Next someone will say its entrapment or not fair the bus hid the cop.
most folks can't imagine what a bike like that can do many who own em don't ring em out, except on the internet.
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oh my! but i thought jonnie was a good boy.
For what it's worth, drawing down on someone for reckless driving may not be illegal in this instance (I don't know and don't care enough to find out) but I do NOT think it is the proper response for a plainclothes cop in an unmarked car. Too many possibilities end with one or more getting shot. I'm glad it worked out okay for all involved. THAT said, after that point all the searching, harassment, etc., is overkill. Ticket him, pull his license, whatever. Above and beyond that is total BS, and was done because of the video, I'd wager...
were i not of such a trusting nature i'd toss about statements like folks putting their agenda on before the read and then reading into stories that which feeds their fire.
You just did. =|
Next someone will say its entrapment or not fair the bus hid the cop.
Not a f'ing chance - the biker chose his actions and can stew over being caught red-handed. More than TWICE the damn speed limit... what the hell. At that point, he's a guided missile, kinetic energy "bomb".
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and its a felony stop he got cut a huge break and hes not outa the woods yet not sure if they could amend charges
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I have no dog in this fight, I have no desire to debate, and I'm done posting in this thread. You guys seem to have it under control, just had to add my $0.02. :)
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- The bikers actions were both highly illegal as well as dangerous to himself and others
- Sport bike riders have shown in the past both the predisposition and ability to successfully run from police
- Stopping the vehicle in front of the bike appears to be the best way to prevent a high speed chase from ensuing.
- Drawing a firearm during a felony stop as well as after high speed chases is standard procedure for most departments
- And since the officer had no other way to really keep the subject there, drawing a firearm also seemed to be the most sure way to prevent him from fleeing
- Lastly, drawing a firearm is generally not considered brandishing for police officers, and is not even deadly force. The fact is, a police officer's use of force continuum is different than ours. Deal with it.
If the officer had pulled behind the biker, or waited to a marked car, and the biker fled at high speed; what would you opinion be if he had then crashed into another motorist killing/injuring both himself and another?
I would also be highly skeptical of taking a criminals side of the story at face value, especially when he tries to shield all of the events from the public eye by editing out certain parts of the video before making it public. But then again, when you are already predisposed to hate police, I can see where one would grasp at everything they can that makes police look bad, disregarding how reliable it may actually be.
Did everything work out perfectly? Not really. But I imagine that the only thing going through that officers head was "stop this joker right NOW before someone dies" I can't really blame him for that.
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boy reminds me of me at that age . and thats not praise
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. . . as far as i can tell the cop ids himself at 6 seconds in after getting out and the kid revving and backing up. i know jonnies a good boy but revving and backing up is sometimes a precursor to fleeing . . .
So you do recognize that the then-unidentified man with the drawn gun only identified himself as a cop after the motorcyclist may have been preparing to flee?
Would you also admit that fleeing an unidentified man with a gun who's advancing towards you is a reasonable response?
As far as the "johnnies a good boy" comment, I don't see anyone supporting the motorcyclist's reckless driving in this thread . . . the issues are the cop's actions both during the stop and their clearly retaliatory misuse of their authority after the videos were posted. Cycle boy's bad driving in no way justifies that.
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i'd disagree i think he knew he was busted and wasa lying sack . unless you think he didn't see the marked car he passed in the median
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and what kinda moron after driving at 3 times the speed limit doesn't figure the guys a cop? especially after he turns all the way around to eyeball him on the ramp. those cops were hauling freight to catch him. and i'm gonna hazard a guess and say they do give a blank about killing themselves or someone else.
plenty of folk defending junior it made em not see a wheelie talk smack about the arrest being an assault as well as the usual claptrap i hope they find this thread and amend his charges that 161 ticket might get some time i pulled 12 months for 155 but that was virginia. you reservists how would this figure for a career enhancer? junior did it he lied his way from a misdemeanor into a felony what a genius
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i think the worst thing is junior turned a misdemeanor into a felony literally. he got a traffic ticket tried to play victim with the other girls on the internet. didn't consider that he was screwing with the cops career. found out that the big dog bites and he gets a felony bust to take through life.thats a career enhancer.
Whoa better not post any video of police encounters on the internet or you may be "screwing with a cops career" and be deserving of having trumped up felony charges thrown at you. The sad thing is the video could be used as evidence against the motorcyclist, but the cop had to get offended and make up b.s. charges. Oh yea that's right your still claiming the wiretapping law charge was valid. Your a keyboard lawyer now right?
charges weren't false he was charged under existing law. the judge tossed the case that happens at some point they change the law. he did tape right? the law says two party. heck they mighta got a judge that let it stick that happens a couple times and they change the lil notation about " courts and reasonable expectation of privacy" to a new notation.
The law says two party consent is required where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Do you think that applies OUT IN PUBLIC? Or is it only police officers have a expectation of privacy when their doing their job in public? Can't video tape the cops, especially when it might make them look bad! You have some strange denial issue where you seem intent on trying to say that the wiretapping charge was valid even though 3 posters and a judge here have refuted that but hey you know better right? Oh wait you want to courts to legislate the a new definition of reasonable expectation of privacy (did I hear a pro judicial activism argument) Yea that's right we should change the law to screw with the people you see fit.
in the real world you know what this cop is in real trouble for? being too nice. he gave a snot nosed kid a real break dropped the miles over didn't tag him with all the hard charges didn't rough him up or impound his bike heck junior got a ticket and went home to momma.
Your right the cop should have given "lil johnny" a little Rodney King action, that would have taught him a lesson. For all the crap you spew I wonder how you'd react if when your daughters got older a cop taught one of your "lessons" you seem so eager for them to dish out to others.
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C&SD, if you wish to troll, can you please at least start using reasonably correct grammar, spacing, capitalization, punctuation, et al? I'm not being a grammar nazi and make quite a few mistakes myself, but if you can properly read our comments, you can see the Standard English languages which you can emulate. I apologize in advance if you have a neurological condition that prevents you from using proper spelling and whatnot (dyslexia or whatnot), which I will admit is entirely possible and plausible.
I don't beleve a single person here is defending the kid's actions. He screwed up. Everyone knows it. That does not excuse the actions of the police in question. The Constitution applies to everyone, including criminals and suspects. There is no possible crime he could have committed that justifies an unsigned warrant.
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i'd disagree i think he knew he was busted and wasa lying sack . unless you think he didn't see the marked car he passed in the median
So now you see a marked car in the median as equivalent to an unmarked car in front and the advance of an unidentified man with a gun. Brilliant. :facepalm:
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The sad thing is the video could be used as evidence against the motorcyclist, but the cop had to get offended and make up b.s. charges.
Heck I'd be offended if i cut some punk slack big slack and then they *expletive deleted*it on me But I'm like that especially if he cherry picked a short piece and had the audio magically recover. Yea I'g break it off in him too.
Is that law still on the books? Then you can be charged with it Heck we had a lawyer charged and convicted of adultery 5 or 6 years ago. doesn't ha[[en often. You can be charged you go before the man in the long black dress he can decide to toss it. thats the way the system works. The subtle nuances between an unsuccessful charge and a false one are escaping you. Because a charge or case runs contrary to your belief system or agenda does NOT make it false. When i was in school they taught about the various components of the judicial system apparently not anymore. That checks and balances thing seems to be working
Your right the cop should have given "lil johnny" a little Rodney King action, that would have taught him a lesson. For all the crap you spew I wonder how you'd react if when your daughters got older a cop taught one of your "lessons" you seem so eager for them to dish out to others.
After driving 160 its not out of the realm of reality to get snatched off the bike and face down on the pavement. Give it a try sometimes.
Maybe they could tell the poor boy was sensitive.
junior got his feelings hurt and lashed out at the bad man. who gave him the big breaks. found out that the bad man can smack back. life lesson mom and pop failed to instill. tantrums have consequences. that cop was way calmer than some i've seen who just had to fly through traffic to grab some entitled moron. Md state police are second only to the Va state cops as far as being pros. the secret service is next followed by the capital cops though i've only got reckless from the first three.
Bottom line is the only laws that were broken were by junior. Cop probably shoulda made the first word we heard on the tape "Police" he was 5 seconds late with that. And hes probably guilty of not appropriately charging junior at the initial encounter.But that can be fixed! As our young hero is finding out .All the noise about false arrest perjury grand larceny et al annoy me, as juvenile ranting is wont to do.
Oh yes , where that "unsigned warrant"? Our hero seems to have made his arrest report available but the warrant, smoking or not, is missing , kinda like the audio in the long vid that is magically restored in the edit. I know I won't be invited to the revolution but his credibilty is shot with me he needs to put up or shut up. He makes a poor martyr. But revolutions can't be picky look how Che turned out
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So now you see a marked car in the median as equivalent to an unmarked car in front and the advance of an unidentified man with a gun. Brilliant. :facepalm:
So nowadays you blow by a cop and think "he can't see me!"? Whenever I drove by a cop I always looked back to see if he pulled out after me. Heck i do that now still. things hace changed these kids are much smarter. :facepalm: :facepalm: [barf]
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I think it's time to stop feediing the troll folks. A lesson I need to learn myself over in RT at the moment.
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i am curious In the world view of some of you what would be the appropriate way to handle ? how and why.. if you can.
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So now you see a marked car in the median as equivalent to an unmarked car in front and the advance of an unidentified man with a gun. Brilliant. :facepalm:
So nowadays you blow by a cop and think "he can't see me!"? Whenever I drove by a cop I always looked back to see if he pulled out after me. Heck i do that now still. things hace changed these kids are much smarter. :facepalm: :facepalm: [barf]
Non sequitur, having nothing to do with a marked car in the median and an unidentifed man with a gun a few feet in front.
I think it's time to stop feediing the troll folks. A lesson I need to learn myself over in RT at the moment.
Indeed. ;/
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Next someone will say its entrapment
nope. For entrapment to happen, the cop would have to have a functioning brain. This cop is clearly
an idiot.
-my last dose of troll food, couldn't resist- [popcorn]
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The subtle nuances between an unsuccessful charge and a false one are escaping you. Because a charge or case runs contrary to your belief system or agenda does NOT make it false.
Are you being willfully ignorant?
This is akin to an open carrier getting charged with disturbing the peace. It seems when someone is OC'ing every cop must know off the top of their head that its legal, and allowed or else their gonna get slapped with a civil lawsuit. When this cop wrote up this warrant, it wasn't in the heat of the moment on the street, it was in the precinct where he had access to look up the law, or consult a DA. He obviously did none of those.
For the wiretapping charge to stick the person being tapped must have had a expectation of privacy. Answer me this directly, no deflections if you can, Do you think you have an expectation of privacy when your in public. Why or why not? Do security camera's pointing out into a public street constitute felony wiretapping when recording people who have not given their explicit consent? How is this any different than a mobile security camera?
You never answered me, What would you say if one of your daughters when they got older took after your penchant for minor legal infractions and got "taught a lesson" by a cop? Roughed her up a bit and made her kiss pavement I'm guessing by your attitude you'd just go "Eh, you deserved it sweetie."
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Well bearing in mind lil jonnie never got face down, but its a nice dodge, I'll answer anyway. I've got girls so i don't hit much so far the 8 year olds gotten two swats and the young one 3. But if that was my son he'd have to move out.I'd say kick his tail but if that was my kid I'd have to face the fact that I raised a sissy who would probably call the cops after his whupping
Now to answer your question about if it was my girls?That would depend on whether my kid deserved it. Hopefully she will know better.The thought they might be like me does not bring joy to my heart.
How do they do felony stops where you guys live? lil jonnie never got cuffed and his cheerleaders are crying rape. It wasn't till he got cute that he got schooled and the schoolings not over cid got the hd tape. His troubles are far from over. They can do better than cnycacher with the hd vidtape. Sweet jeebus he shoulda kissed that cop and baked him cookies getting to leave with a ticket for going 80? Not losing the bike? watching it get scratched as it gets towed? He got a gift from the gods and then he screwed it up.
Its even worse than what happened with the 2 border patrol guys at least they were trying to actually cover a fairly minor screw up when they file 13'd their careers . This kid was home free he went and revisited his crime tried to lash out in a girlish hissy fit and now knows why thats not a good idea. Maybe it'll teach some others but I doubt it
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Its even worse than what happened with the Its even worse than what happened with the 2 border patrol guys at least they were trying to actually cover a fairly minor screw up when they file 13'd their careers border patrol guys at least they were trying to actually cover a fairly minor screw up when they file 13'd their careers
wow. Just wow. Your either a true beliver that cops do no wrong or your a certified troll
maybe both
Minor screw up. Shooting a fleeing suspect in the ass, policing their brass and covering it
up on the report. Minor. I don't want folks like that wearing badges. Man. You should look up the word integrity. As far as I can tell, you don't have a clue as to what it means.
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Answer me this directly, no deflections if you can
Apparently you can't but good try anyway!
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I think it's time to stop feediing the troll folks. A lesson I need to learn myself over in RT at the moment.
;/
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wow. Just wow. Your either a true beliver that cops do no wrong or your a certified troll
maybe both
Minor screw up. Shooting a fleeing suspect in the ass, policing their brass and covering it
I failed to get you to comprehend. i should refer you to thr.us and the immigration thread where csmkersh and i thrashed out where the agents went south, pardon the pun.
the screw up there starts when he attempts to knock the smuggler down with his shotgun guy ducks agent misses falls down in ditch minor fubar ends here lesson possibly learned.
But no he got up and fired 14 shots and missed. bigger fubar but god looks after the stupid all shots missed. again ends here minor consequences.
But no His partner comes over the ditch takes one shot at much greater distance hits him
at this point reality sets in and they go oh shoot
they don't try to get him it gets worse they wait till they see he makes it across the river so no body this side bad
it gets worse they police their brass
don't make a report
leave
still no report
gets worse send another agent to police brass (who initially lies but testifies against them alonf with other agent witnesses)
just when they think they got away with it the guy resurfaces and they talk with no or bad legal representation.
recap they started out being gung ho correctly directed a good thing. first screw up attempted butt stroke a lil time off with.without pay if it ends there
14 shots still just more time off
1 shot hit uh oh! now its serious but probably they could both keep jobs if they were more honest from that point on yhey dug that hole deeper and deeper till they ended up with more than a decade as a sentence. they turned down 1 year plea deals the stupid it hurt so bad.
our young martyr on the bike is walking that same path the stupid stride boldly
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@Balog/Cas: Just as an aside, you might both be more convincing if you didn't start calling people trolls when they don't bend under the weight of your irrefutable logic.
Not agreeing != troll. Trolling is an act where someone deliberately starts a discussion with no purpose other than to infuriate others. Just because someone's argument makes you angry, doesn't mean they are doing it on purpose.
I've never seen the word troll thrown around like this before, in this case it is absurd. You are both long time members of the forum with long post histories. You disagree. Be adults about it. You can have a thread a thousand posts long full of passionate disagreement and still not have either one of you being a troll.
I'd be interested to know, medically, what the average blood pressure rate is at APS. So many people get so angry with so little provocation, I don't get it, how do you deal with real life when people don't agree with you? (See, this last sentance was some mild trolling =D)
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Apparently you can't but good try anyway!
''I'm sorry i thought I had. the punctuation musta confused me.
Let me try again my son pulled 5 outa a possible 10 for something he did in fact do that I thought only rose to the level of a crime where he lived because the guy he fought was white. I was angry at him for not calling me to get a better lawyer and at him for doing it and getting caught.I was mad at the guy he fought and considered going to see him but decided hes being better punished being alive. Were my daughter to be roughed up iI would want to know hat happened before I went one way or the other , my initial guess would be my oldest she was innocent my youngest guilty. Its hard to play seer but I'd likely take a very cold look at anyone who was with her and their role in whatever nonsense got started .They could be in trouble. I spend a lot of time dealing with the aftermath of stupid human tricks. once they were mine now the guys i counsel. I spent a ton of time in court. i am not too delusional about how the system works hence my giggling at your "false charges "plaint. I still would love to see that warrant. curious how it can't be found when all the other cherry picked stuff can be. The only trouble i expect the trooper to face is a lecture about charging to the max and not giving breaks in the future
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could you show where i posted the word troll here ?
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Depends on the definition of troll dunnit? I define it as posting in a way designed mainly to cause anger and aggresive reactions. One can do it the CSD way, by being insulting. One can do it your way, by being polite yet condescending.
A good clue as to trolldom is coming to a forum with certain ideological tendencies, claiming to have formerly believed as the majority do, but having since outgrown such childish and illogical notion. Another is constantly demanding evidence and that people answer your questions, but refusing to address the issues raised against you, side stepping, changing the point of the debate when it goes against you etc. A brief over view of your post history in politics (or shootinstudent's back when he posted in Politics a lot) shows this habit. One can be polite and break no rules, and yet be a troll.
For a good example of how to be a liberal on a libertarian/conservative forum, look at Nitrogen. I disagree with him vehemently on many issues, but he can generally make his point in a arrogance and condescension free way.
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I'd be interested to know, medically, what the average blood pressure rate is at APS. So many people get so angry with so little provocation, I don't get it, how do you deal with real life when people don't agree with you? (See, this last sentance was some mild trolling =D)
120 over 80 actually. Just had it checked as part of my VA stuff. I simply stop posting once it becomes apparent my opposite is arguing from an emotional base, rather than debating from a logical base. It is extraordinarily rare to convert someone who is arguing from an entrenched emotion position to your point of view, so after saying my bit I just go spend my time and energy at more productive tasks.
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Depends on the definition of troll dunnit? I define it as posting in a way designed mainly to cause anger and aggresive reactions. One can do it the CSD way, by being insulting. One can do it your way, by being polite yet condescending.
A good clue as to trolldom is coming to a forum with certain ideological tendencies, claiming to have formerly believed as the majority do, but having since outgrown such childish and illogical notion. Another is constantly demanding evidence and that people answer your questions, but refusing to address the issues raised against you, side stepping, changing the point of the debate when it goes against you etc. A brief over view of your post history in politics (or shootinstudent's back when he posted in Politics a lot) shows this habit. One can be polite and break no rules, and yet be a troll.
For a good example of how to be a liberal on a libertarian/conservative forum, look at Nitrogen. I disagree with him vehemently on many issues, but he can generally make his point in a arrogance and condescension free way.
Did you just define troll as disagreeing with the majority on an Internet forum? Nice, Balog, and here I thought APS was for people of all backgrounds and beliefs.
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Did you just define troll as disagreeing with the majority on an Internet forum? Nice, Balog, and here I thought APS was for people of all backgrounds and beliefs.
No, willfully ignoring what I posted is though.
For a good example of how to be a liberal on a libertarian/conservative forum, look at Nitrogen. I disagree with him vehemently on many issues, but he can generally make his point in a arrogance and condescension free way.
Edit: I bolded it for you so you won't miss it a second time.
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''I'm sorry i thought I had. the punctuation musta confused me.
Let me try again
I don't know how you missed it but this this is what I was talking. Re: the wiretapping charge.
This is akin to an open carrier getting charged with disturbing the peace. It seems when someone is OC'ing every cop must know off the top of their head that its legal, and allowed or else their gonna get slapped with a civil lawsuit. When this cop wrote up this warrant, it wasn't in the heat of the moment on the street, it was in the precinct where he had access to look up the law, or consult a DA. He obviously did none of those.
For the wiretapping charge to stick the person being tapped must have had a expectation of privacy. Answer me this directly, no deflections if you can, Do you think you have an expectation of privacy when your in public. Why or why not? Do security camera's pointing out into a public street constitute felony wiretapping when recording people who have not given their explicit consent? How is this any different than a mobile security camera?
My last question may not have been clear. How is the cyclists helmet mounted video camera different from a security camera in a legal perspective. They both record people out in public that have not given their explicit consent to be taped. Do security cameras in that state break the wiretapping law?
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No, willfully ignoring what I posted is though.
Edit: I bolded it for you so you won't miss it a second time.
So anyone who makes you mad is a troll? And come on Balog, every time someone says I'm side stepping I ask them to show me where I am and no-one ever answers back. I think that is enlightening.
And I'm not the one saying things like, "I think it's time to stop feediing the troll folks. A lesson I need to learn myself over in RT at the moment." I wouldn't call that trolling, but it sure isn't minding your own business and contributing to a discussion.
I'm not going to poo on the thread any more though, you can get back to calling Cas a troll and complaining about how horrible I am. I think I'll go check the dinosaur thread again, unless that is trolling too?
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@Balog/Cas: Just as an aside, you might both be more convincing if you didn't start calling people trolls when they don't bend under the weight of your irrefutable logic.
Not agreeing != troll. Trolling is an act where someone deliberately starts a discussion with no purpose other than to infuriate others. Just because someone's argument makes you angry, doesn't mean they are doing it on purpose.
I've never seen the word troll thrown around like this before, in this case it is absurd. You are both long time members of the forum with long post histories. You disagree. Be adults about it. You can have a thread a thousand posts long full of passionate disagreement and still not have either one of you being a troll.
I'd be interested to know, medically, what the average blood pressure rate is at APS. So many people get so angry with so little provocation, I don't get it, how do you deal with real life when people don't agree with you? (See, this last sentance was some mild trolling =D)
No, the entire post was mild trolling.
You certainly didn't help you're "I'm not a troll" case with that one.
For the record, us longtime APS members frequently have long and drawn-out disagreements without any of us devolving into trollishness the way you seem to. Lord knows Balog and CSD and I all disagree on issues, and yet none of us suspect the others of being trolls.
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No, the entire post was mild trolling.
You certainly didn't help you're "I'm not a troll" case with that one.
For the record, us longtime APS members frequently have long and drawn-out disagreements without any of us devolving into trollishness the way you seem to. Lord knows Balog and CSD and I all disagree on issues, and yet none of us suspect the others of being trolls.
Say it ain't so Headless, you think I'm a troll too?? :P Ok, I mean it this time, I'll stay out, lol.
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Lord knows Balog and CSD and I all disagree on issues, and yet none of us suspect the others of being trolls.
I missed your edit. The reason I posted is because Balog was calling CSD a troll, right after he got done calling me a troll. =)
I really, really mean it this time.
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I don't know how you missed it but this this is what I was talking. Re: the wiretapping charge.
My last question may not have been clear. How is the cyclists helmet mounted video camera different from a security camera in a legal perspective. They both record people out in public that have not given their explicit consent to be taped. Do security cameras in that state break the wiretapping law?
They do if they do audio or at least that was the way it was explained when I taped folks in the restaurants in md.
Video is one thing audio another. There is another part of that law vis a vis taping involving criminality that confuses me and may snag our lil jonnie. His is an epic fail. from wheely past cop at over a 100 (where are those folks who questioned the cops integrity about that speed estimate) to getting a real good break on charges. In the alternate universe that was because "the cop knew he f'd up " whereas in my world I've gotten the same kinda treatment by being polite and civil while being popped. Strangely enough another thing they used to say when they dropped the miles over was"i've gotta write you but I'll drop the miles so it won't cost as much. I/we appreciate that you didn't run". After doing that much right and reaping the benefits he goes home and gets olympic class stupid. First he posts video of his "bold stroke for the revolution against the man" then edits a short video to try to portray the guy who cut him slack in a negative way. How do guys make it outa puberty who act like that? Now schools in. they've got his camera they have the original vid and they will enhance it and really rack him. And as far as I can tell the only flaw in the cops end is he shoulda said " police get off the bike get off the bike" instead he said "get off the bike get off the bike police" and someone wants to turn this into some kinda abuse? I almost choked when I read "zomg assault! perjury! "and the rest. only on the internet. if i had juniors email i'd send him this
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/11/13/129026103369999113.jpg
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and as shocking as it might seem even when we disagree strongly
there has been at least once where while I remained firm in my own omnipotent rightness I came to see that they weren't wrong. whats right for me isn't required to be right for someone else.
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...firm in my own omnipotent rightness...
:D
You're really quite funny somtimes, C&SD. :)
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funny? i was serious! :angel:
i uised to work for a guy who was fun his mantra was "its not enough that i always be right! all others must also be wrong!"
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That's another good one, indeed! :D
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How come we can't ever have a positive police related thread? No matter what the story, some anarchist has to come along and ruin the thread. (Not saying this was a positive one to begin with)
I know it's impossible, but if I had a lamp with a genie in it, I would wish for all of the police in America to vanish for 1 week. That would be an interesting week.
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For the record, I very much like CSD. I think anything involving cops brings out the side of him that enjoys making people angry, but he is a valuable addition to APS and I harbor no ill will towards him. HTG and I disagree a lot, and his manner of posting irritates me sometimes. I don't want to see the positive contributions he makes go away either. And hopefully I contribute something of value here and there, even if it's just the occasional well timed xkcd.
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How come we can't ever have a positive police related thread? No matter what the story, some anarchist has to come along and ruin the thread. (Not saying this was a positive one to begin with)
I know it's impossible, but if I had a lamp with a genie in it, I would wish for all of the police in America to vanish for 1 week. That would be an interesting week.
we don see those stories for two reasons:
1. News reports do not show positive stories because they don't sell.
2. Individual interactions with the police are generally for something bad. This ranges from a simple ticket to calling 911 in an emergency. In some cases the officer is viewed as arrogant, mean, etc. In an emergency, where seconds feel like minutes, response time is often criticized as evidence of apathy.
Often, individuals first instinct is to shoot the messenger. Police are often the messengers.
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Interesting comment from another forum. I agree with it 100%. There is another tidbit that I am trying to confirm. This thug Cop might have been in his personally owned vehicle.
Here's a cop's point of view. It's worth what you paid for it.
The cop in the unmarked car is a prick. Not because he got out with his gun in his hand, but because he wanted payback for the kid posting the video of him looking stupid on youtube. The wiretapping charge will not hold water, and I bet the cop knew that when he sought the warrant. My money is on his mentality being "he might beat the charge, but he won't beat the ride".
The cop may have had a badge on his belt, but that is hardly what I would want to rely on to "identify" myself in a situation like this. The cop was driving an unmarked car, in civilian clothes, cutting a bike off in traffic, and stepping out with a gun drawn. Tunnel vision is a mother ####er, and I'll bet most people would have focused on the gun, and never even looked at the badge on his belt. The kid on the bike was not attempting to elude, as the video shows him exit the freeway, and sitting behind stopped traffic at a traffic light. The smart thing to do would be to tail the guy, and have the marked unit make the stop if he was so hell bent on getting this guy his tickets. Was he identified as a cop? Yes. Was he identified enough to risk his life on it? I wouldn't do it.
All of the dumb things this cop did aren't half as bad as him seeking prosecution because he's personally pissed at the guy. That makes him look like a chump.
The search warrant is a whole 'nother issue as well. The foundation of it was to search the computers for evidence of the youtube video, which was the basis of the wiretapping charge. It had nothing to do with bikers posting vids of their top speed runs. The judge that signed that warrant should have the gavel shoved up their ass sideways. There is almost nothing more intrusive than having the police show up and go through your house with a fine toothed comb. To have it done without just cause is a failure of justice. The judge and officer both should have known that the MD wiretapping statute did not apply to audio recorded in a place where there is no expectation of privacy. Because of this, the arrest warrant, and more importantly, the search warrant should not have been issued.
Bottom line, chump cop got pissed because he looked like what he is on the video, and decided to make life hell for this kid. No wonder people hate us cops.
From: http://www.tallahasseegunforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=157683
Now let's hear some more stories of "what happened to me when I was a stupid kid"' that has NO bearing on this incident.
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ahhh I see! the car makes it different! NOT. But for the record your own initial link has the police report,and in it it specifies the cops were in contact by radio to coordinate the chase . If in your alternate reality cops drive their own cars with a police comm package it might be possible, the fact I drive in md and see those kinda plain wrappers often not withstanding. Nice of you to provide the link refuting your new position , weak though it was, though. thanks! I am still waiting to see the warrant They are public record and its most curious that with the arrest report and the miracle video available the one element of whining that might have substance stays hidden. I'm not sure if I was lil jonnies lawyer how I'd feel about this case, on the one hand hes done everything possible to go to jail short of resisting. but on the other think of the billable hours!