Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Silver Bullet on May 09, 2010, 10:36:23 PM
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I moseyed over to my favorite rifle range in Kenmore recently. I hadn't been there for a few months.
I had a new Marlin 795 that I wanted to align with an even newer Nikon Prostaff rimfire scope. In my previous Appleseed trial, I realized that my .22 caliber tube-fed Marlin 60, while doable, placed me out of sync with the Appleseed instruction format. Appleseed was very accommodating to my “non-standard” tube-fed .22 (most folks there not only had a .22, not only a semi-auto .22, not only a clip magazine .22, but a Ruger 10-22), but for my next Appleseed I want to eliminate the need for that accommodation, so I bought a 795.
In addition, I discovered when I shot my neighbor’s rifle at Appleseed that even at the 25 yards that Appleseed shoots, my vision is much improved with a scope. I have a peep sight on the 60.
I did a bit of research before getting the Nikon. I had narrowed my search down to a cheaper Cabelas’s rimfire scope, which had good reviews on their site, and the Nikon Prostaff rimfire scope, which was more expensive but had even more impressive reviews. After much thought, I popped for the more expensive Nikon.
I'm very impressed with the Prostaff. Extremely clear in my first-scope-ever opinion, and a whole lot easier and more fun to zero-in than the peep sights on my other rifles.
I also accidently discovered that my view of the target was improved when I had my reading glasses on instead of my shooting goggles. I had put my glasses on to make notes in my little moleskin notepad I was using to record my progress. At one point I forgot to take them off when I was shooting. I then discovered that, when using a scope, the optical focus is so short (at the scope lens and not at the target) that my vision was improved with reading glasses.
I started out 10 inches low and 2 inches to the right. I ended up eradicating the 9- and 10-ring.
Of course, this was only at 50 yards. But, the good news is that Appleseed shoots at 25 yards ! The bad news is that Appleseed shoots freehand in three different position.
Next I’ll work on shooting with the sling and natural point of aim in freehand. I have a lot of work to do before I earn the Patch.
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wtf is a clip magazine
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wtf is a clip magazine
Context is everything. It ain't a tube magazine.
Good to know that my Marlin 60 won't work for Appleseed. I keep hoping for a free weekend to do Appleseed, but I have had misgivings about doing it with the Marlin, because of the tube magazine issue. I can borrow a 10-22 from a friend though. Guess I better do that, when I get around to doing Appleseed.
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Hi, BW,
I'm not saying a tube magazine won't work; I expect it's been done. It's just not as easy.
The Appleseed program I attended had some specific magazine loading procedures which were cumbersome for a tube magazine. Worse, they included some drills where the magazine was first loaded with eight rounds and then two rounds. The derivation for that is the eight-round Garand clips, which makes no sense: nobody was shooting Garands, and Garands weren't used in the Revolutionary War. ;/
There are much worse choices, though. My .30-30 lever-action would be a worse choice for the Appleseed format, including the problem of cycling the action from a prone position.
Good luck with your Appleseed. I didn't do very well my first go-around, but it made a big impression on me, and I learned a lot.
What a bargain !
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Context is everything. It ain't a tube magazine.
Good to know that my Marlin 60 won't work for Appleseed. I keep hoping for a free weekend to do Appleseed, but I have had misgivings about doing it with the Marlin, because of the tube magazine issue. I can borrow a 10-22 from a friend though. Guess I better do that, when I get around to doing Appleseed.
I know that a (detachable) box magazine isn't a tubular magazine. I've heard clip-magazine thrown around a lot lately, as if it was actually some sort of real thing.
Also, I think they make speed loaders for tubular magazines. It's like a big cylinder with several tubes, like the Lee loading press case and bullet feeders.
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A tube magazine can be made to work for Appleseed - the guy next to me had one. It does require special accommodation and is way more cumbersome than a detachable mag. The Appleseed guys are ready to deal with that, though.
After my first Appleseed I rethought a couple of things. The importance of elbow pads is understated. They keep talking about muscles not being used to the positions - don't worry about that. It's the elbows that will kill you. Knees less so, but still fairly annoying.
Also, TechSights aren't all that easy to use. Their adjustment wheels are tiny and a PITA to turn. I really regretted not buying the key.
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Nikon makes a nice scope. I just got a Team Primos for my .308 and love it. It's basically the 2008 version of the Nikon Monarch renamed until they're sold out so as not to affect current Monarch sales. Up until just recently, SWFA was selling them for $199 and including a really nice dri-duck camo jacket. Probably one of the best scope deals going. They're still selling the scope, but minus the jacket.
Interesting on what you said about shooting with reading glasses. I just within the last year started wearing reading glasses. When I was mounting and bore sighting the new scope, I was wearing the glasses and actually found that I had to take them off while looking through the scope. I'm still at the point where I "kinda sorta" need the glasses, but more often than not get by without them, so that might be part of it.
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A tube magazine can be made to work for Appleseed - the guy next to me had one. It does require special accommodation and is way more cumbersome than a detachable mag. The Appleseed guys are ready to deal with that, though.
After my first Appleseed I rethought a couple of things. The importance of elbow pads is understated. They keep talking about muscles not being used to the positions - don't worry about that. It's the elbows that will kill you. Knees less so, but still fairly annoying.
Also, TechSights aren't all that easy to use. Their adjustment wheels are tiny and a PITA to turn. I really regretted not buying the key.
I have a TechSight peep on my 60. You're right, it is a pain to adjust. Very handsome sight, though, much nicer looking than the Williams peep I have on my 336 lever-action. The Williams sight is much easier to adjust, though, and adjusts to finer increments; I prefer it to the TechSight.
The main issue with tube magazines at Appleseed is that many of the timed drills require the students to load their magazine but not load the magazine into the rifle before the drill begins. I was told to go ahead and load my tube magazine (and thus my rifle) and wait a few seconds after the drill started so that the other students wouldn't feel they were at a disadvantage. Plus, on the 8+2 drills, students with detachable magazines could preload two magazines, a further convenience.
I have a speedloader tube, and that helped, but it was awkward in the context of a shooting drill. Great Revolutionary War simulation, though: I felt like I was loading a muzzle-loader with the British advancing upon me. =)
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Just don't forget to adjust your sights down after every couple of shots when the cavarly is charging. :O
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My dad outshot me at appleseed with a bolt-action single-shot .22. I don't know the model but it also required you to cock it after closing the bolt.
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My dad outshot me at appleseed with a bolt-action single-shot .22. I don't know the model but it also required you to cock it after closing the bolt.
Sounds like the Cricket.
They're annoying because you can't just drop the round in and close the bolt, you actually have to stick it down in the chamber first.
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Good to know that my Marlin 60 won't work for Appleseed. I keep hoping for a free weekend to do Appleseed, but I have had misgivings about doing it with the Marlin, because of the tube magazine issue. I can borrow a 10-22 from a friend though. Guess I better do that, when I get around to doing Appleseed.
It'll work.
When we get to the point where you do mag-changes, we'll have you simulate a failure to fire. So, you'll load 11 when everyone else loads 10. You'll shoot two, then eject a live, then shoot eight. It'd be nice if you can bring a .22 snap-cap for that. You would insert 2 good rounds, then the snap-cap, then 8 more good rounds.
Or, bring your friend's 10/22.
Appleseed's about run what ya brung, so you can certainly do it with your model 60.
None of my LTR's ("Liberty Training Rifle" - suitable loaner or model rifle for learning marksmanship) are Ruger 10/22's. One is a Savage 64F with a scope, one is an old Marlin model 42 with TechSights and one is a new Marlin 795 with Williams FP-TK sights.
The Appleseed program I attended had some specific magazine loading procedures which were cumbersome for a tube magazine. Worse, they included some drills where the magazine was first loaded with eight rounds and then two rounds. The derivation for that is the eight-round Garand clips, which makes no sense: nobody was shooting Garands, and Garands weren't used in the Revolutionary War. ;/
The derivation for the AQT predates the Garand, and is based on the 1903 Springfield bolt action rifle. The course of fire used to be 5+5, in the same time limits as used now, but with a bolt action. The 2+8 is an adaptation for teaching reloading under stress with the Garand, with the "2" being first because you can't "top off" a Garand.
You can run an Appleseed with a lever or bolt gun just fine.
I'm working on clearing the AQT with my Mosin Nagant... I still need to make some final adjustments to my Mojo sights (file down the base for a good sight picture on stages 3 and 4). After that, I'll be working on clearing the AQT with my Winchester 94 .30-30 lever gun. I figure for each stage I'll load it with 6+1 for a total of 7, and then when I run dry I'll single-load through the open bolt until I run out of time.
You don't have to have the pet 10/22 with the "right" mods, or an M14 or CMP M1 Garand, to shoot at an Appleseed.
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I came real close to clearing an AQT w/ my Mosin Nagant M44... Slightly stiff bolt and all. Stage 3 killed me tho...
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Gawd, that all sounds like fun. Wish they'd had these around here when I was a youngster, say, 60.
Nowadays, all that kneeling and getting up from prone would make me the last to finish any stage... and maybe still shooting into the next two stages.
<sigh>
Enjoy yourselves, kids.
Terry, 230RN
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wtf is a clip magazine
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg530.imageshack.us%2Fimg530%2F8135%2F27994487.jpg&hash=c9b191c3ab9eeff4f92260ad1dca73dd439bdbb1) (http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=705480&page=4) from my search for the mag loading ring =D
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When I was researching scopes, I finally narrowed my attention to two:
Bushnell Rimfire, $36.99
maximum adjustment: 40 moa
eye relief: 3.0”
Nikon Prostaff Rimfire, $109.95
maximum adjustment: 80 moa
eye relief: 4.1”
both scopes:
Power: 4
Objective: 32
adjustment increment: ¼ moa
parallax free: 50 yards
My biggest influence was probably this review by Chuck Hawkes:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_rimfire_riflescopes.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_rimfire_riflescopes.htm)
I bought my 795 new for $98 on sale last year, so I wasn’t sure I wanted to put a scope on it that cost more than the rifle. I was really tempted to get the Bushnell. My rifle + scope would have been about $135 plus tax + shipping on the scope, an amazing value. Other items I’ve purchased for it are the sling, additional magazines, a few spare parts, and a lot more .22.
But, ultimately I put more emphasis on Chuck’s discussion of the great view through the Nikon, plus the Nikon’s 80 moa adjustment and 4.1” eye relief. I’m very happy with this decision. Maybe I’ll get a Bushnell for my Model 60 for comparison, but I’m thinking I might sell the 60. Too bad the Marlin Model 39 lever action isn’t anywhere near this cheap.
As I recall, most of the students at my Appleseed did not have scopes. I think I need it. And my reading glasses.
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I have the Bushnell on my 10/22. Great scope for the money.
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I can believe that. Fantastic price. :cool:
Way less than my peep sights. ???
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http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/8135/27994487.jpg from my search for the mag loading ring =D
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2Fqs0foy.gif&hash=147c9454982a41db6a0ba1a5bcf0b8ee66560e53)
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Would Tech sights work on a 795?
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Would Tech sights work on a 795?
Yes. I have two of them, both with Tech-Sights.
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SB: is that the Kenmore range in Bothell? That's right down the road from me..
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Would Tech sights work on a 795?
Yes, TechSights makes a model expressly for the 795. I have some that I have adapted to work on an older Marlin model 42.
I also have another 795 on which I have installed Williams FP-TK rear sight and a front firesight.
I sight in on the sighter squares with a 6 o'clock hold since the front sight covers more than 4 MOA. I use a COM hold on "100" and "200" yard stages and try to hold just a skosh low on target, then do a 6-o'clock hold on stages 3 and 4 since the red firesight is larger than the "400" yard target.
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Would Tech sights work on a 795?
I would certainly expect them to. I have Techsights on my Marlin Model 60, and the Marlin Model 795 is essentially the same rifle but with a detachable magazine instead of a tube magazine.
The Techsights model I bought for my Model 60 is TSM200. The "documentation" that came with it specifies "for the Marlin 60 & 795". That should do it !
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SB: is that the Kenmore range in Bothell? That's right down the road from me..
Yup. My favorite rifle range. Good prices, nice layout. The only problem is the old feller who acts as rangemaster sometimes forgets to call a ceasefire every half hour. :mad: :lol: One time he called the ceasefire to allow everyone to reset targets, and then he forgot to let us go back to shooting. I had to get his attention in his office area to remind him he had a dozen fidgety shooters standing around behind the red line ready to resume.
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Interesting, you are literally the first person I've met that likes that range. Between the old guy in the office ranting about how stupid and dangerous things IPSC and 3-gun are, getting yelled at for "shooting too fast" on the pistol line, and the whole "only load one round at a time" thing I've been there twice and that was enough. Glad you like it though, I wish there was a nearby range I liked.
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I go to Wade's in Bellevue for pistol shooting. Seems like their lane prices have gone up a lot, though. There's also a pistol range in the south end of Everett. I think it's cheaper, but it's busy. I don't want to stand around waiting for a lane to open.
A year or so ago Millcreek made a post about a new range somewhere between Botthell and Mill Creek. I think he was talking about this place:
http://www.shootingsportsnorthwest.com/?q=node/1 (http://www.shootingsportsnorthwest.com/?q=node/1)
Very nice looking place, but members only.
I guess I like the Kenmore Range because it's the only place I shoot rifles, and I always enjoy the experience. Maybe if I had experience shooting them elsewhere I wouldn't be so pleased.
.22 shooters get to load five rounds. I saw some guy show up with his girl friend and a semi-auto .223 of some sort. He got angry and stomped off when he was told about the one round limit.
I wouldn't mind driving a bit if there is a better range elsewhere.
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I've seen mention of a place over in... Woodinville? Snohomish? Somewhere east of Bothell anyway. I was going to look into it, but they're losing their lease and moving soon I believe.