Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Battle Monkey of Zardoz on May 11, 2010, 11:45:37 PM
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Just got pulled over for a night time seat belt enforcement, or what ever excuse the idiot popo are using this week to fish. Here is the conversation.
I pull over, turn on interior lights, put truck on park, roll window down
Officer: How are you tonight? Were you wearing your seat belt when you pulled out of XYZ street?
Me: Yes
Officer: Well we are doing "night time seat belt enforcement (BS excuse for fishing). But the reason I pulled you over is that your license plate light is out. Were you aware of that?
Me: It is. I dont think so, can we look?
Officer walks to the back of my truck, has a look on his face like a monkey doing a math problem. License plate light is on, burning nice and bright.
Officer: Hmm, turn your dome light out, might be a short.
I comply. License plate light is still on. I suggest, following the "it might be a short" theory, maybe my foot on the brake at the stop light, then taking off to turn might have pulled juice. Officer tells me to put it in drive and hold break down, I comply. License plate light is still on.
Officer: When I was behind you at the light, your license plate light was not on (BS). <mind you that my truck sets up high enough that you can see the license plate even if you are riding my ass>
Officer: Well, were doing "night time seat belt enforcement", so I not going to write you a ticket. (although he takes my license, CCW and ins to the cruiser and makes some notes)
Officer: Have a nice night.
Me: Stay safe.
WTF? Why does this *expletive deleted*it continue? This cop had NO reason to take 15 minutes out of my life to pull his little fishing/revenue generating stop. Folks, this is yet another reason for a rift between citizens and badge wearing citizens.
End of rant
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has a look on his face like a monkey doing a math problem.
Heh. =) That would describe me quite frequently.
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I don't even bother with math.
I took the pre-ASVAB thing on the Army website the other day, when it got to the math parts I tricked my sisters into thinking they would help them with their math test next week.
Aw yeah.
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Officer: Well, were doing "night time seat belt enforcement", so I not going to write you a ticket.
How gracious of him.
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Bad stop and he knew it. He should have waited til you actually committed a traffic violation if he wanted to see what was up. If making up BS stops with no actual grounds is his way of doing things, it won't be long before he gets called on it.
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If making up BS stops with no actual grounds is his way of doing things, it won't be long before he gets called on it.
I doubt it. If cops actually put the thought and effort in doing their actual jobs, as they do getting around the constitution, crime would go down. I consider a cop who does not follow the law to have less worth to society than criminal with a long rap sheet.
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Dash cam would have settled the matter if he had pressed.
"Gee officer, let's review the tape".
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Requiring your license plate to be lit up by little light bulbs is BS too. Especially considering they're stamped from reflective sheeting.
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The reflective plate is for the reflection of the plate light, not headlights. What if police are doing a stake out or sitting with their lights off? They should still be able to see license plates.
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This really chaps my ass. A traffic stop is a seizure, an arrest. I was detained. No legal reason for it. For 15 minutes I was not free to leave. It's not that I got stopped. It's that I got stopped with no PC or RS. Not even "suspect truck fits your truck". This ass pulled me over, ran my *expletive deleted*it and did not have a legal leg to stand on as to why he initiated the stop.
I'll stop for now. I don't want to go on rant mode again.
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I've had the "registration light's out" excuse used on me three times for being stopped. I wasn't doing anything wrong in any of the stops. Just, you know, had a registration light out.
Which, you know, led to a game of 20 Questions one time. Even a game of I Spy With My Little Eye another time. The other time was an uneventful walk-around to check every currently in-use light on my car by two officers. One of those three events might fall under a fishing expedition. What do you think? And apparently, they'll use the plate light stop even if your plate light isn't out.
I don't think having a light illuminating your rear license plate visibly from a distance of 50 feet is necessary to police work. Not even during a stake out or while they're sitting with their lights off.
If a police officer is not in a position to identify a suspect within 50 feet without a plate light, they're doing something else wrong. And if a police officer knows a suspect is breaking a law, then what value does the plate light provide them within that 50 feet?
I'm against the whole idea of requiring your license plate to be illuminated. I can see it being potentially useful for police officers in certain niche scenarios, but that isn't going to get me to agree with the statute.
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This really chaps my ass. A traffic stop is a seizure, an arrest. I was detained. No legal reason for it. For 15 minutes I was not free to leave. It's not that I got stopped. It's that I got stopped with no PC or RS. Not even "suspect truck fits your truck". This ass pulled me over, ran my *expletive deleted* and did not have a legal leg to stand on as to why he initiated the stop.
I'll stop for now. I don't want to go on rant mode again.
A traffic stop is not an arrest.
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I don't think having a light illuminating your rear license plate visibly from a distance of 50 feet is necessary to police work. Not even during a stake out or while they're sitting with their lights off.
If a police officer is not in a position to identify a suspect within 50 feet without a plate light, they're doing something else wrong. And if a police officer knows a suspect is breaking a law, then what value does the plate light provide them within that 50 feet?
I'm against the whole idea of requiring your license plate to be illuminated. I can see it being potentially useful for police officers in certain niche scenarios, but that isn't going to get me to agree with the statute.
Wrong. When the officer is recording the LPs of cars leaving a drug house using binoculars from 50+ yards away, having the LP be illuminated is key. You can disagree with whether it should be law all you want, but saying that an illuminated plate doesn't make certain things much easier or even just possible is plain incorrect.
Just out of curiosity, where are you getting your 50 feet number?
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A traffic stop is not an arrest.
This is true, legaly.
...But you sure can't leave one early.
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Well in a nation of laws and speaking about the legal system, how else are we supposed to judge an even besides legally? Zardoz feels wronged. So we then use emotions to judge the merits of an event?
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This is a just another symptom of the "nanny state".
We have asked our police officers to also be agents for revenue enhancement for the local and state government.
States and villages that aren't in debt and/or have good revenue streams don't have any reason to make their police officers go out and alienate the citizenry with strong arm tactics.
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This is true, legaly.
...But you sure can't leave one early.
QFT. Tell a cop you're done and you're leaving the illegal detention and see what he says. Odds you get tasered and cuffed.
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QFT. Tell a cop you're done and you're leaving the illegal detention and see what he says. Odds you get tasered and cuffed.
Yeah...if you're lucky.
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This is a just another symptom of the "nanny state".
We have asked our police officers to also be agents for revenue enhancement for the local and state government.
States and villages that aren't in debt and/or have good revenue streams don't have any reason to make their police officers go out and alienate the citizenry with strong arm tactics.
Ayup. Tying "cops finding criminal activity" with "cops generating revenue for the .gov" was a really, really bad idea.
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Is there anything you can do in a situation like that?
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Is there anything you can do in a situation like that?
Nothing much right then & there unless you wanna ride to the pokey.
Perhaps a digital recoding of the event, including video and clear shots of both Officer Fisherman and his patrol car posted to the web and an email with links sent to the local LEOs, the DA, and the mayor/policritter.
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What is interesting is that I am 50 years old, and the last time I had a traffic stop was decades ago. I think I was in my 20's. Could it be that bald, middle-aged white males are not cop magnets?
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What is interesting is that I am 50 years old, and the last time I had a traffic stop was decades ago. I think I was in my 20's. Could it be that bald, middle-aged white males are not cop magnets?
Pretty much, yeah. Of course they also tend to do less to attract the attention in the first place, but when Officer Friendly decides he needs to up his chance at promotion by generating some more revenue on BS tickets he tends to goto the young males. Better statistical chance the fishing expedition will work, lower chance the guy is a lawyer or rich enough to hire a good one etc.
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Nothing much right then & there unless you wanna ride to the pokey.
Perhaps a digital recoding of the event, including video and clear shots of both Officer Fisherman and his patrol car posted to the web and an email with links sent to the local LEOs, the DA, and the mayor/policritter.
Unless they decide to hit you with a wiretapping charge for recording them.
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Unless they decide to hit you with a wiretapping charge for recording them.
Virginia's wiretapping law is a "one-party consent" law. Virginia makes it a crime to intercept or record any "wire, oral, or electronic communication" unless one party to the conversation consents. Virginia Code § 19.2-62. Therefore, if you operate in Virginia, you may record a conversation or phone call if you are a party to the conversation or you get permission from one party to the conversation in advance. That said, if you intend to record conversations involving people located in more than one state, you should play it safe and get the consent of all parties.
Won't happen here.
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but when Officer Friendly decides he needs to up his chance at promotion by generating some more revenue on BS tickets
Spoken by someone who is clearly unaware of what drives promotions.
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Spoken by someone who is clearly unaware of what drives promotions.
Cops always claim there are no quotas for tickets, that writing lots and lots of tickets doesn't help the chance for promotion etc. Does anyone really believe that?
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Ayup. Tying "cops finding criminal activity" with "cops generating revenue for the .gov" was a really, really bad idea.
I agree, and think it us fool hardy from an economic perspective.
A state trooper can make as much as 60k+. Since there is a wide distribution of salaries both within departments and between states, and other associated costs with employment (pension, benefits, etc), I will simply use 60k for this example as the typical total cost per trooper.
Assuming the typical ticket averages 100 dollars, each trooper needs to write 600 tickets just for the state to break even.
Now, if a troopers job is to do nothing but write tickets, this number could easily be met within a month.
There has to be some sort of dimenishing returns. If states decide to start ticketing the crap out of people, they will simply leave. IN started doing this, so I left and took my income taxes with me. The last straw was when an unmarked mustang passed me in the left lane, then decided to hit the breaks and pull me over.
I was not too happy about paying someone 60k a year to joy ride in a mustang and harrass me. Especially while living in one of the top meth producing counties in the US (ie something more important to do).
Since I have left, I have told anyone who would listen the reasons why they shouldn't take any job offers in IN. I can't help but wonder how much that 100 dollar ticket cost the state, even though I had multiple reasons to leave.
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Cops always claim there are no quotas for tickets, that writing lots and lots of tickets doesn't help the chance for promotion etc. Does anyone really believe that?
Yes. I have about 30-40 friends and coworkers who are police officers, and no there really are no quotas. Now, it's pretty obvious you have a bone to pick with police and nothing I say is going to stifle your emotional response to police, so you can say and feel what you want. But if you care to take the time to do some fact finding and actually go talk some officers, you maybe find yourself with a little more information to counteract those feelings. But then again, you may believe just walking in the front door of a police station will get you tased.
Also, take a look at the stats for vehicle related deaths in the US and then try to say making sure people don't willing break traffic law isn't an important thing to do. But again I am certain the emotional response of "Well I felt harassed so I KNOW I must be right" will trump any use of fact or statistics.
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yea guys that set records for writing tickets are not admired on their side of the blue line. i've heard them described in less than flattering ways. unfortunately at least once i was cuffed and the cop was writing me while another searched me and got ready to haul off my bike. the cop cuffing me told me how to beat the tickets though so it worked out ok
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The reflective plate is for the reflection of the plate light, not headlights.
Do you even have a clue as to the meaning of the term "retroreflective?"
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Interestingly I have friends that are officers too, and they universally say there's no ticket quota, but if you don't write enough expect to get called in front of your supervisor to explain why. Maybe FL law enforcement is different.
That being said before I drive myself into a bashing frenzy, my outrage metter isin't really pegged because Monkey got pulled over. Not because it isn't wrong, but I'm feeling in the grand scheme of things we, as a society have bigger problems to deal with. I yearn for the day when unwarranted traffic stops are the biggest issue we have with LE.
I'll conceed the plate light thing, because there are situations where it's handy to have. (The main one I can think of is a non-LE witness trying to identify a car leaving a hit and run or similar crime). But Monkey's light wasn't out. What we have here is an officer that wanted to (for whatever reason) instigate a stop that he didn't have athourity for. So he lied. Quit suger coating it, he lied so he could violate Monkey's rights for 15 min. The traffic stop is kinda small change really, but I wonder what other stuff this guy is lying about. Maybe testimony in court if he's "sure" they got the right guy? How much weight do courts, and the rest of society, give the word of a LEO. And he's lieing about traffic stops. Bad Juju.
*Cue the apologists telling me how many felons get arrested because of traffic stops like this*
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Yes. I have about 30-40 friends and coworkers who are police officers, and no there really are no quotas. Now, it's pretty obvious you have a bone to pick with police and nothing I say is going to stifle your emotional response to police, so you can say and feel what you want. But if you care to take the time to do some fact finding and actually go talk some officers, you maybe find yourself with a little more information to counteract those feelings. But then again, you may believe just walking in the front door of a police station will get you tased.
Also, take a look at the stats for vehicle related deaths in the US and then try to say making sure people don't willing break traffic law isn't an important thing to do. But again I am certain the emotional response of "Well I felt harassed so I KNOW I must be right" will trump any use of fact or statistics.
the traffic safety stats don't always accurately reflect reality. The autobahn is statistically much safer than the US interstate system. But the Germans are more restrictive in their licensing. Rural highways are less safe in the US than the interstate, but have lower speed limits and less traffic. There is evidence both ways to show that speeding is either dangerous or can be done safely. That said, I bet you would be hard pressed to legitimately show a correlation/causation between license plate lights and accidents.
Also, just because quotas aren't used in your area, doesn't mean they aren't used in Balog's. Just because your friends don't harass people, doesn't mean there aren't officers who do. It really only takes a small percentage to negatively affect public opinion. Especially with the communication capability these days.
It is the police depts job to protect and serve the collective, not the individual. This is accomplished by looking for "bad" individuals. Therefore, an extreme interpretation demonstrates it is a police officers job to find out what you did wrong, and make sure you are punish accordingly. To some this may involve harassing motorists for going 31 mph in a 30 mph zone, while routinely driving 45 themselves. Others reserve their duties to only the extreme elements of the law.
The very nature of the job means that a police officer is not on the side of any other civilian they interact with. It is only natural for people to feel harrassed when dealing with a police officer, due to very nature of their function in society.
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I'm not bashing cops RD, if you've seen my posts over the years you know I have a neutral perspective about LEO's. Some are good, some are bad, and all I want is for the bad ones to be prosecuted and the good ones to not support them. Your accusation of "baseless emotional cop bashing" is absurd, and a little use of the search function will demonstrate your folly.
There may be no official quotas, but if your job is traffic enforcement and you don't write enough tickets you can bet it won't do good things for your career. Or so say every cop I've known well enough to ask, who was talking off the record.
None of these points address the issue of the state using "criminal" activity as a means of generating revenue. If you give the state an economic incentive to find people being criminals (indeed, make it a significant source of funding) then of course more people will magically start committing crimes. Funny how that works, eh?
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the traffic safety stats don't always accurately reflect reality. The autobahn is statistically much safer than the US interstate system. But the Germans are more restrictive in their licensing. Rural highways are less safe in the US than the interstate, but have lower speed limits and less traffic. There is evidence both ways to show that speeding is either dangerous or can be done safely. That said, I bet you would be hard pressed to legitimately show a correlation/causation between license plate lights and accidents.
Also, just because quotas aren't used in your area, doesn't mean they aren't used in Balog's. Just because your friends don't harass people, doesn't mean there aren't officers who do. It really only takes a small percentage to negatively affect public opinion. Especially with the communication capability these days.
It is the police depts job to protect and serve the collective, not the individual. This is accomplished by looking for "bad" individuals. Therefore, an extreme interpretation demonstrates it is a police officers job to find out what you did wrong, and make sure you are punish accordingly. To some this may involve harassing motorists for going 31 mph in a 30 mph zone, while routinely driving 45 themselves. Others reserve their duties to only the extreme elements of the law.
The very nature of the job means that a police officer is not on the side of any other civilian they interact with. It is only natural for people to feel harrassed when dealing with a police officer, due to very nature of their function in society.
I understand that. There is a small percentage of bad people in every single profession. Probably because there are just bad humans. Police just happen to get singled out more so than the pharmacist at Walgreens who slips himself a few Percocets or the gas station clerk who fills his own car after closing time. By the very nature of police work, nearly every contact a civilian has with police is going to be for something negative. Whether it's getting a ticket because you were speeding when going to work causing both a fine and getting yelled at by the boss, or just the feeling of the officer not being seen to do enough when your house got broken into, almost all interaction between police and the populace is centered around a negative event. I get that.
But I would have hoped that APS being a forum where, dare I say, more rational people tend to flock as opposed to say, democraticundergroud, that the members of this forum would be able to see that the negativity associated with police is in fact mostly a product of plain old associative psychology and good old media sensationalism. But, I was wrong. Unfortunately, people here seem to be just as susceptible to feelings of "I felt bad and police were around so police=bad"
Seeing as I'm reading Lord of the Rings, it brings to mind an analogy. The people of Rohan started calling Gandalf "Stormcrow" and despised seeing him around because he always brought bad news when bad things were happening. The reality was that he only came to that country when he needed to warn them about something bad that was going to happen anyways. But they simply saw "Gandalf is here and something bad is about to happen so Gandalf must be bringing the evil here"
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I'm not bashing cops RD, if you've seen my posts over the years you know I have a neutral perspective about LEO's. Some are good, some are bad, and all I want is for the bad ones to be prosecuted and the good ones to not support them. Your accusation of "baseless emotional cop bashing" is absurd, and a little use of the search function will demonstrate your folly.
There may be no official quotas, but if your job is traffic enforcement and you don't write enough tickets you can bet it won't do good things for your career. Or so say every cop I've known well enough to ask, who was talking off the record.
None of these points address the issue of the state using "criminal" activity as a means of generating revenue. If you give the state an economic incentive to find people being criminals (indeed, make it a significant source of funding) then of course more people will magically start committing crimes. Funny how that works, eh?
Or you could look at it the othe way and notice that when people notice police cars hanging around a certain area, their speed in that area goes down and traffic collisions do to. Or when police start hanging around certain bars at closing time, OWIs in that particular area drop too.
People hate getting caught. Paying fines sucks. They may grumble about those damn police slowing down their commute to work, but you can be sure they keep it under the speed limit when they see that car sitting by the side of the road. And hating getting caught comes into play with the reaction to. Ever hear a coworker describe the last ticket he or she may have gotten? It's NEVER their own fault of course, it is ALWAYS that damn cop singling them out and pulling them over when they did nothing wrong. That is of course untrue, and they know damn well they were breaking the law. The are just mad they weren't able to get away with it this time, and the human mind hates assigning blame to itself, so it blames the cop.
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do they have cams in that area? miked officers? then monkey has been given an opportunity to strike a blow for freedom. he can foia the tape and do something. its a great chance for him to not just be an internet commando and send a message. or not. he'd have to decide if the principle means more than a post on aps.
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QFT. Tell a cop you're done and you're leaving the illegal detention and see what he says. Odds you get tasered and cuffed.
And then people all over the internet will get to argue about whether you deserved to get tased or not. [popcorn]
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What is interesting is that I am 50 years old, and the last time I had a traffic stop was decades ago. I think I was in my 20's. Could it be that bald, middle-aged white males are not cop magnets?
Know who else is a cop magnet?
1. Small, harmless-looking white gals in cities that have begun recording the race of those pulled over to combat profiling. Risk-free way of bumping the numbers of white folks one pulls over and perhaps generate revenue, if some infraction can be ticketed.
2. People on the way to church at 7:30AM Sunday. When I still had a radar detector, I got more positive hits on the highway then than at any other time. Another risk-free way to generate revenue and pad the race count.
Yes. I have about 30-40 friends and coworkers who are police officers, and no there really are no quotas. Now, it's pretty obvious you have a bone to pick with police and nothing I say is going to stifle your emotional response to police, so you can say and feel what you want. But if you care to take the time to do some fact finding and actually go talk some officers, you maybe find yourself with a little more information to counteract those feelings. But then again, you may believe just walking in the front door of a police station will get you tased.
Also, take a look at the stats for vehicle related deaths in the US and then try to say making sure people don't willing break traffic law isn't an important thing to do. But again I am certain the emotional response of "Well I felt harassed so I KNOW I must be right" will trump any use of fact or statistics.
Err, not quite...
yea guys that set records for writing tickets are not admired on their side of the blue line. i've heard them described in less than flattering ways. unfortunately at least once i was cuffed and the cop was writing me while another searched me and got ready to haul off my bike. the cop cuffing me told me how to beat the tickets though so it worked out ok
There usually is no explicit quota, but there is an accepted range and going below or above that range by a significant amount will attract negative attention. If you have easy access to public records, take a sampling of what day of the week/month they are issued on. You'll likely see a convex beta distribution when plotted over a calendar time period (usually month):
Red =JotS Blue=Lackadaisical Green=Combined
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vosesoftware.com%2FModelRiskHelp%2Fimages%2F12%2Fimage21.gif&hash=03d88f7e27969c170daa88d93d06fa8d57a834f2)
Why? Johnny-on-the-spot traffic LEOs get into the accepted range right quick and then coast the rest of the month. More lackadaisical traffic LEOs coast most of the month and than hurry to get their numbers up.
It functions like a quota and looks like a quota. To anyone not invested in the myth, it is a quota.
do they have cams in that area? miked officers? then monkey has been given an opportunity to strike a blow for freedom. he can foia the tape and do something. its a great chance for him to not just be an internet commando and send a message. or not. he'd have to decide if the principle means more than a post on aps.
My suggestion, too. Matter of fact, this sort of thing ought to be done more often.
Of course, that takes time...in addition to the time already involuntarily taken from him. I think most petty abusers of power rely on their targets making a cost/benefit analysis and deciding it is not worth the trouble. It is only folks who reject the common sense conclusion and eating the cost of taking it further. Of course, the abusers use that against those who would hold them accountable, indicating that their accusers are unreasonable, deranged, irrational, etc. for going to the mat over a petty abuse.
Last, I really must question the intelligence, imagination, & motivation of the LEO int OP. There are so many infractions he can draw on as a "legitimate" reason to pull someone over. Musta rode the short bus to school.
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Two of my former college roommates are now homicide detectives. One in Kansas city, one in St Louis.
They both told me that there were no ticket quotas when they were beat cops, but both of their departments had minimum engagement expectations. Meaning, that they were expected to interface with the public a certain number of times a month. Of course, a really easy way to up that number is to give out a few traffic citations.
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are they running a "click it or ticket " program there? thats where the brass/politicians decide they need some pr. and declare goals for the grunts to meet . it eresults in a slew of seatbelt tickets to satify the need for a photo op
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RD:
I think it is rational to hold the police as a group to a higher standard. At the very least the need to follow the laws they enforce. It doesn't take much for anyones opinion to change.
I personally come from an area where the police are, frankly, corrupt. It is an everyday occurance to witness a cruiser run a red light, with their family in the car. I personally know police officers that openly talk about getting drunk walking around in street clothes and arresting people for public intoxication.
The same people who go to work, clock in, go home and go back to bed. I could go on, but the difference between a walgreens employee stealing drugs and a police officer doing the same is they are public employees. The people they are harassing/arresting are the people who are required by law to pay money to the officers employer. This means they are under a microscope.
I think it is only rational for a person to assume that if they have done nothing seriously wrong, that any given police officer is only looking for a reason to arrest/ticket someone. That is simply their job, and if you are aware that some police are bad apples, there is a chance that the officer in question is one of these.
So then, at least on my mind, if this person possibly routinely violates "small" laws, what is stopping them from committing "bigger" crimes? If a person is alone in a secluded area with an officer that is armed, whose word is practically taken as gospel in a court of law, and is potentially corrupt it is only natural to have strong feelings of bad juju. This is basically feeling harrassed, and when it is for no reason at all, it only hurts the police as community. Even in the eyes of the most rational person.
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I think it is rational to hold the police as a group to a higher standard. At the very least the need to follow the laws they enforce. It doesn't take much for anyones opinion to change.
I personally come from an area where the police are, frankly, corrupt. It is an everyday occurance to witness a cruiser run a red light, with their family in the car. I personally know police officers that openly talk about getting drunk walking around in street clothes and arresting people for public intoxication.
The same people who go to work, clock in, go home and go back to bed.
So as a citizen of that area, dare I ask, what are you doing about it other than just getting angry at the entire profession of law enforcement?
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well hes posted on the internet about it.... [popcorn]
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There is a small percentage of bad people in every single profession.
RD wrote in another thread:
I'll believe that a lot more when they start policing their own group and trying to improve the image. Much like that "only a small % of Muslims are terrorists" sentiment. When any group allows a small sect to act out in bad ways, and yet does nothing to clean it up internally to improve their overall image, I don't take any claims of "well they don't represent us" seriously.
I agree! =D
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So tell Officer Fisherman to write the damn license plate lamp ticket, and you'll subpoena his dashcam video and he can explain to the judge why he lied on his report. (you have to be a 50 year old white guy to get away with this)
You said earlier you were detained for 15 minutes; how do you know you were not free to leave? Did you ask?
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RD: you make broad baseless accusations that bypass the arguments presented to you, then claim it is your opponents who are operating on emotion.
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So as a citizen of that area, dare I ask, what are you doing about it other than just getting angry at the entire profession of law enforcement?
I moved away from the area. I apologize if I gave the impression of being angry at the profession.
I was trying to say that a rational person sees flagrant abuse of authority, and simply assumes it exists to some extent else where. It is only logical. So combine this potential for abuse, with the system that puts all the chips in the hands of the officer/state (going so far as having to prove innocence to fight a traffic ticket; an admittedly minor, but IMO important violation of civil rights), it is only natural for even the most rational mind to view any given police officer as a potential enemy. The system as both designed and practiced encourages it in some locations.
I don't say this as cop bashing at all, it is simply the way the system is. It is irrational to expect people to betray their nature. In other words, I see an officer and I assume that person is corrupt, not because it is the most likely scenario, but because it is the worse case scenario. To stay safe I have to plan for the worse, and do everything I can to avoid any interaction at all.
I have not met any police officer that was too terribly concerned with other police officers violating the law. Since I have know both bad and good officers, I can only draw conclusions based on direct observation. Frankly the conclusion is: Some LEOs are bad, some are good. I have seen no evidence that the good are interested in any way in policing the bad.
You yourself indicated that it is the citizens job to police the LEO's. I really have to ask, what can a citizen do? What rights does a citizen have against a police officer? The job is appointed, not elected. The chief's position is even appointed in some areas.
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What is interesting is that I am 50 years old, and the last time I had a traffic stop was decades ago. I think I was in my 20's. Could it be that bald, middle-aged white males are not cop magnets?
You could try driving faster >:D
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yea guys that set records for writing tickets are not admired on their side of the blue line. i've heard them described in less than flattering ways. unfortunately at least once i was cuffed and the cop was writing me while another searched me and got ready to haul off my bike. the cop cuffing me told me how to beat the tickets though so it worked out ok
My brother is a cop and when he was patrolling he had been the top ticket writer, there was a friendly competition between the cops in his small PD. He said it was like shooting fish in a barrel and he would let people go all the time, lots, nurses,EMT's construction workers and parents always got a free pass ( as well as cops of course, that's NY for ya )
He now is a detective so he has the easy life. =|
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yea the construction worker freebie is one a lotta folks don't know about. cops will generally try to work with another poor slob going to work. theirs is a bluecollar job in most respects. joseph wambaugh mentioned it.
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You said earlier you were detained for 15 minutes; how do you know you were not free to leave? Did you ask?
well. The cop had my dl,ccw and ins in his pocket during the encounter and him trying to find a reason why he pulled me over once I called him on the lp light. So no. I didn't feel free to leave.
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Last, I really must question the intelligence, imagination, & motivation of the LEO int OP. There are so many infractions he can draw on as a "legitimate" reason to pull someone over. Musta rode the short bus to school.
This is what I was thinking (sort of). Down here, I see cops trolling for tickets all the time, but Every single one of them knows exactly where to go to catch the most people if they need to. Around my home town, I can think of at least a couple areas. One is a 20 MPH school zone. You have to really lay on the breaks to get down to 20 and often they will go ahead and write tickets at 21 or 25. That spot is near where I get a haircut and the lady said the cops there will be pulling people over nearly continuously. The highways around here are easy pickings also.
I pass cops at 10 or less MPH over the speed limit all the time. There are ALWAYS people going faster and the officer usually doesn't have to wait very long.
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...it is only natural for even the most rational mind to view any given police officer as a potential enemy...
...To stay safe I have to plan for the worse, and do everything I can to avoid any interaction at all.
Pretty much this.
I do my darnedest to avoid interaction with LEOs, as there is no upside.
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Kind of hard to avoid contact with an LEO when then pull a reason out of their arse to pull you over. That's point of this. He had NO legal reason to detain me.
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The politicians and bureaucrats are the ones pulling the strings guys, the police are just following orders.
The legislation and regulations impacting nearly every minutia of our lives is such that we can be fined, ticketed, questioned, detained or basically CONTROLLED by the authorities at any time they desire. This is by design.
Our rulers currently are benevolent and our chains rest lightly upon us. The framework for tyranny is already functioning and like the proverbial frog in a pot we haven't sensed the rising temperature.
If you don't like the laws the police are charged with enforcing then put legislators and bureaucrats in charge that agree with your positions.
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the police are just following orders.
Bull *expletive deleted*it. Thats beneath you. Its an excuse. Bull *expletive deleted*it
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1. Simmer down monkeyboy.
2. You're missing his point. He's not excusing bad behaviour on the cops part, merely pointing out that hating on cops won't change anything. If you don't like the end results of laws, the people who pass them are as/more culpable than the ones who enforce them.
Look, obviously you hate all cops, full stop. W/e, some people are irrational like that. But try not to let that vitriol spill over onto our nice little forum, ok?
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Look, obviously you hate all cops, full stop. W/e, some people are irrational like that. But try not to let that vitriol spill over onto our nice little forum, ok
You settle down Balogboy. I am not anti cop, and I do not hate all cops. As we sit here, I am with the chief detective of the local PD, been friends with him for over 10 years. He finds what happened to me to be a stain on good LEOs. But this following orders BS, is BS.
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Wrong. When the officer is recording the LPs of cars leaving a drug house using binoculars from 50+ yards away, having the LP be illuminated is key. You can disagree with whether it should be law all you want, but saying that an illuminated plate doesn't make certain things much easier or even just possible is plain incorrect.
Just out of curiosity, where are you getting your 50 feet number?
I'm not wrong because you decided I'm wrong. When a police officer is recording license plates of cars leaving a drug house with binoculars from 50+ yards away, he can see the plate number without it being illuminated by a plate light. You can try this yourself if you require proof. Grab your binoculars, sit 50+ yards away from an area with consistent traffic, and scope out some license plates. You'll see them.
All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways. That in itself puts some molasses on the necessity of a plate light.
I also didn't say it doesn't make certain things easier or possible. I disagree with your particular examples of it being necessary, but I do see it serving in niche situations. 9 times out of 10 it's completely unnecessary, in my opinion. It's just not justified. And I imagine it's used in traffic stops as much as it's used for any purpose you deem worthy.
Being pulled over for having a plate light out is kind of saying "Hey, man. Can you fix that in case we ever have to investigate you? Thanks." by your description of its usefulness.
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec1909.html (http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec1909.html)
A vehicle must have a white light capable of illuminating the rear registration plate so that the characters on the plate are visible for a distance of at least 50 feet. This section does not apply to unregistered farm tractors.
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???
Ryan, would you agree that reflective license plates are only visible at night when there's some light for them to reflect?
And would you agree that there can be instances when there are no other light sources around except what the car itself provides?
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Bull *expletive deleted*. Thats beneath you. Its an excuse. Bull *expletive deleted*
The speed limit on Everytown St is 30 mph.
For 50 weeks of the year the residents of the area drive down the road at the perfectly safe speed of 40 mph, day in and day out.
Officer friendly finds out that his gig for two weeks is to hide in the bushes along Everytown St and catch as many folks as he can in the act of breaking the law.
Would you have him argue with his superiors about this? Should he refuse to enforce the law on this stretch of road because it is an odious law designed to bring in revenue?
Cops have supervisors and superiors dictating what gets done.
The problem isn't really the guys writing the tickets. I'm sure the vast majority of cops would prefer to be doing something that makes a more lasting impact on society than enforcing traffic laws, esp traffic laws designed to make it easy to collect revenue.
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I was not speeding. My LP light was working, and in fact working just fine per the Dodge dealership today. The reason given to me at the time of the stop, Night time seat belt enforcement, and no LP light. What gives? What is not understood? I was wrongfully pulled over for no legal reason or the cop is blind as a bat and needs to get glasses or put his badge down.
Dont paint me as anti cop just because I dare to tell the truth about the encounter. You have no magic mushroom with me just because you carry a badge. No special exemptions. I expect you to obey the law just as I do.
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You could file a formal complaint or ask to speak with the chief about this issue.
I have been stopped twice in the last 22 years. One was for driving without headlights downtown (I had just pulled out of a lit ramp onto a lit street and I forgot) and the other was for rolling through a stop sign (I thought I had come to a complete stop as I saw the police car when I stopped). Both times they were polite and let me go with no ticket. The "rolling stop" stop was almost funny.
Police: Do you know why we stopped you?
Me: No.
Police: You rolled through that stop sign.
Me: (smiling) I'm pretty sure I stopped. I saw your marked cruiser there and made sure I stopped.
Police: (smiling) We don't think you came to a complete stop. You slowed down, but did not come to a complete stop. You almost stopped.
Me: (smiling) Ok. I hand over my license/registration/proof of insurance and wait a few minutes.
Police: (smiling) You have a good driving record. Let's keep it that way.
He handed my info back and told me to go. I thanked him and left.
I was not confrontational at all; I cooperated as that's all I could do. Had I gotten a ticket, it would have been my word against TWO officers in that car. I would have lost in court even though I knew I came to a complete stop because I saw the cop car right there parked watching the intersection. If I would have complained, I'm not sure what good would have come out of this. I didn't get a ticket, and they could say they were cutting me some slack that night. I let this one go.
I make sure I come to a complete stop.
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All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways
where is this the law?
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All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways
where is this the law?
And in some instances the vehicle isn't required to have a displayed plate at all. I own an old army truck that is registered as a collectors vehicle (which by the by I'm also slowly restoring to original config). By the local law "in order to maintain the original appearance of the vehicle" I'm only required to hang the tagged plate from the dash inside the vehicle. Kind of nullifies the whole plate light issue right there.
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You settle down Balogboy. I am not anti cop, and I do not hate all cops. As we sit here, I am with the chief detective of the local PD, been friends with him for over 10 years. He finds what happened to me to be a stain on good LEOs. But this following orders BS, is BS.
I think anyone reading... well, pretty much all of the posts you've made having anything vaguely to do with cops would disagree. And I'd still recommend you look into A. calming down and B. not insulting and antagonizing your fellow APSers. Just a helpful hint.
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I have not insulted anyone, nor have I antagonized. I have labeled the cop as he should be labled. Anyone who would take up for him, or make excuses, feel insulted, probably think its ok to pull someone over for no reason.
If it stings to hear it, there must be a reason for that sting. Either you agree with what the officer did, or your pissed that I brought a light on a specific practice that most of us find wrong.
I think anyone reading... well, pretty much all of the posts you've made having anything vaguely to do with cops would disagree
Then you and anyone should go back and re read, with a heavy dose of "context". Do I disagree with dirtbag cops who play fast and loose with the rules, and those who make excuses and take up for them. Hell yes. The converse is true that I applaud cops who do their jobs the correct way, by obeying the rules set forth. Context is everything. Just a helpful hint.
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Balog could never be characterized as a "thin blue line" guy. and he speaks very true
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You're right, I can't imagine how anyone could construe your posts as either anti-cop or combative. What was I thinking? Undoubtedly I was only enraged that you dared question our perfect overlords, the police. I just think those brave souls can do no wrong, you know?
FTR, if it went down as you describe the cop is either an idiot or doing wrong. I'd report him for it.
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if it went down as you describe the cop is either an idiot or doing wrong. I'd report him for it.
or quit commenting negatively in a high shrill tone
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I am calm. I just call it the way I see it. The Nurermberg Defense does not wash with me. Just following orders. Thats BS.
Here is a hint as to why pulling over a vehicle, without any cause is a bad thing. Courts have said that a traffic stop is a seizure. Period. You must have a reason to make a stop. The cop in my case clearly did not. Hes blind at best, a liar at worst. Anyway, if you pull some reason out of your arse to pull a car over, and you find drugs, you have just tainted the evidence chain. And you have given a good lawyer a pretty good shot at getting such a find suppressed at trial. Thats a good hint.
When I wore a badge, I approached every interaction with the non badge wearing citizens with that in mind. Not seeing "possible" criminals, but justifing why I did what I did so if anything went to court, I and the DA, were on solid ground. I guess that does not matter to some.
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I'd report him for it
Already in the works. Not that I expect much will be done. From my research on this Seat Belt enforcement at night, this is a nation wide thing of fast and loose with reasons to stop. Kind of like being chased down because you turn to avoid a checkpoint just because you dont want to be bothered.
And there is no shrill tone. If you dont like what I say, or my point of view, please feel free to ignore me. No one is putting a gun to your head to respond.
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Feel free to post where someone has defended the way the cop acted. Go ahead, use that quote function. I'll wait...
And I mean actually defended them, not merely said something that you could mis-interpret then rant on. In a calm and measured tone, of course...
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Just got pulled over for a night time seat belt enforcement, or what ever excuse the idiot popo are using this week to fish. Here is the conversation.
I pull over, turn on interior lights, put truck on park, roll window down
Officer: How are you tonight? Were you wearing your seat belt when you pulled out of XYZ street?
Me: Yes
Officer: Well we are doing "night time seat belt enforcement (BS excuse for fishing). But the reason I pulled you over is that your license plate light is out. Were you aware of that?
Me: It is. I dont think so, can we look?
Officer walks to the back of my truck, has a look on his face like a monkey doing a math problem. License plate light is on, burning nice and bright.
Officer: Hmm, turn your dome light out, might be a short.
I comply. License plate light is still on. I suggest, following the "it might be a short" theory, maybe my foot on the brake at the stop light, then taking off to turn might have pulled juice. Officer tells me to put it in drive and hold break down, I comply. License plate light is still on.
Officer: When I was behind you at the light, your license plate light was not on (BS). <mind you that my truck sets up high enough that you can see the license plate even if you are riding my ass>
Officer: Well, were doing "night time seat belt enforcement", so I not going to write you a ticket. (although he takes my license, CCW and ins to the cruiser and makes some notes)
Officer: Have a nice night.
Me: Stay safe.
WTF? Why does this *expletive deleted* continue? This cop had NO reason to take 15 minutes out of my life to pull his little fishing/revenue generating stop. Folks, this is yet another reason for a rift between citizens and badge wearing citizens.
End of rant
Used to get this crap all the time traveling 70-80,000 miles a year in deep South Texas. Particularly when I'd switch to a "new" car. At first I was really irritated like you and later came to accept it. Even being somewhat amused at some of them acting a bit embarrassed to have pulled over a middle aged white guy instead of the younger, dare I say it, Hispanic they thought they had. I actually laughed when ones face fell about two foot and he even said "oh" when he saw me clearly. They'd also take on a completely different posture and tone when they saw I was an old white guy.
Now I'm in Indiana and I've only been pulled over for a fishing expedition once. This Trooper was young and practically hyper and was at my door almost before I got it in Park. First words out of his mouth was that he wasn't going to write me a ticket so I knew what was up from the beginning. A quick papers check and I was on my way with a cheery "Have a Good Evening". My take is that he had seen me pass by frequently and decided to verify that I should be in the area.
I have complained on the intertubes but all that does is get people asking why you were there at all, saying you must have done something wrong, if you're not doing anything wrong what are you worried about, and finally labeled a cop hater.
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All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways
where is this the law?
In Texas, it would be Transportation Code 547.322(f) A taillamp or a separate lamp shall be constructed and mounted to emit a white light that:
(1) illuminates the rear license plate; and
(2) makes the plate clearly legible at a distance of 50 feet from the rear.
Given that auto manufacturers have a lot of pull in these things, and don't want to make 50 different models, I'd expect most staes to be pretty similar.
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is there a state where tag light is optional? in all the ones i've been in if you had one installed it had to work and all the home built stuff i drove or built to tow hada have tag lights to pass inspection
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This thread reminds me, I really need to replace the tag lights on my car.
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Kind of like being chased down because you turn to avoid a checkpoint just because you dont want to be bothered.
Had that happen to me once. The town I was in had two major streets, and they had set up the roadblock at the end of one of the streets as it went out of town. They had also put signs and road flairs down the entire half mile of the street, warning people about the DUI checkpoint.
I was going home after dropping off a friend after a school function when I turned onto that street from the end opposite of where the checkpoint was. My turn to go home was halfway up the street. Apparently, the police thought I was trying to skip the checkpoint and went after me after I made the turn. The PO's excuse was that he thought I was going too fast, which was BS because I was checking my speed the entire time (I had a good idea they'd come after me, so I didn't want to give them a reason to pull me over). He as much as said he didn't have me on radar, and that it was his opinion.
They ended up not giving me a ticket. Still kind of pissed me off. It tends to make me not trust the police when they lie to my face about the reason they pulled me over.
I didn't do anything about it at the time because I was 16, had just gotten my license a few months prior and didn't want my parents to know I'd been pulled over. 8 years later, and it's still the only time I've ever been pulled over.
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Feel free to post where someone has defended the way the cop acted. Go ahead, use that quote function. I'll wait...
You mean this statement by me?
Do I disagree with dirtbag cops who play fast and loose with the rules, and those who make excuses and take up for them.
I never mentioned anyone taking up for this officer in my indicent. Where have I mentioned that anyone has taken the side of this officer? I stated that I disagree with cops who play fast and loose with the rules and those who make excuses and take up for them.
Where have I ranted? I explained my interaction, and answered/replied to posts. I see no rant, save for my first post. I do see folks trying to paint me as anti cop, which is not true.
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I do see folks trying to paint me as anti cop, which is not true.
I just laugh and laugh every time I see this.
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Balog if you want to continue this pissing match in forum, fine. It may take some time for me to reply.
Why?
We, my wife and I, are just now finding out we have a runaway 18 year old somewhere between Arkansas and Kansas, that just probably ruined her life by getting married. Our niece. So our pissing match will have to take a 2nd chair to phone calls, and trying to piece together todays events as her parents came home to an empty house. This girl left everything, just poof..
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I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things turn out alright for her.
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I just laugh and laugh every time I see this.
Laugh, and put me on ignore, it will save us both some time. Becasue I just shake my head when I get painted as anti cop. It will be a knee slapper when I go shoot next week with some of the local LEOs.
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Thanks, but things being alright for here, that train left the station a while ago. Mother who beats her, physically and emotionally. She stayed with us last summer. Her first taste of freedom from her mother and father. Fell in love with a boy. And, from what we are finding out, have had this little surprise planned for about 5 months. Smart kid, could have had the world by the tail, but I am afraid her actions in the next few days will dictate how the rest of her life will be. Ask me how I know. I got pissed and joined the Army. I should have listened to the old man and went to college first.
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Ask me how I know. I got pissed and joined the Army. I should have listened to the old man and went to college first.
There are worse things; you could have done neither. Ask me how I know.
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we are doing "night time seat belt enforcement
:facepalm:
Even in the areas I patrol where the area is extremely lit up at night, I would have a hard time picking out drivers not wearing seat belts. From time to time, I can spot one on a cell phone but spotting that short section of belt slanted across the little area between the door pillar and the seat is near impossible. Short of actually setting up a seat belt checkpoint, I have about a zero percent chance of seeing a seat belt violator at night.
And no traffic ticket quotas around here. I've only written three infractions this year in response to the 52 stops I've completed (I just checked the CAD ;) ). If there's a quota, I'm going to get in some serious trouble when my eval is done in Oct. :lol:
The three written were all for speeding- one was for a 64 in a 25 zone and the other two were for the same area with a 57 and then a 55 speed noted. All were in the area with heavy use by pedestrians and the pedwalks were in heavy use. Combined with the fact most of the pedestrians and the drivers out and about at that time of the morning are because all have all left the bars following last call, I think excessive speed is a tad bit dangerous. ;) And I hate doing veh vs ped accidents. I find the peds usually lose and they tend to bleed all over the place. I don't enjoy responding to those.
I usually find if I sit on the crosswalks during the 1245 to 0200 in plain view with the radar in obvious view, most folks see me and slow down. That makes my job a lot easier- not as much drama as ensues if I have to do the whole traffic stop thing- or have the bleeding MVA victims.
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???
Ryan, would you agree that reflective license plates are only visible at night when there's some light for them to reflect?
And would you agree that there can be instances when there are no other light sources around except what the car itself provides?
I would not agree that reflective plates are only visible at night when there is light hitting them.
I would agree that there are instances where there are no other light sources other than plate lights. I live in Aroostook County, ME. It's fairly detached from the rest of the country. Those instances around here aren't uncommon with the lack of light pollution, but they're niche situations. I'd also point out that it takes a very small amount of light to bring out the reflective properties of license plates. Not going back on what I just said, just pointing it out.
All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways
where is this the law?
It's a pain to look up those statutes since they aren't all listed in one place. They might even be listed separately for every vehicle type.
There are exemptions for classic/restored vehicles, vehicles past a certain age, sports cars where it would detract from the manufacturer's design, some work trucks are exempt, motorcycles and scooters, motorized bicycles, manual bicycles, and some government vehicles (USPS comes to immediately to mind). Some of them you have to request the exemption. I think classic/restored vehicles, older vehicles, and sports cars actually require you to request exemption in some cases. Maybe some work trucks too. I think it's a pretty streamlined process by now though.
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well i looked and found everyplace i looked the tags gotta be lit up. in some cases you can do it without a seperate bulb my trailers for example. so your early complaint that "all you were doing wrong was no tag light" struck me as curious. the op has a legitiamte beef apparently. you? not so much unless you are trying to claim what you drove fit in an exempted class?
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There are no quota's . . . :police:
. . . only "productivity targets" ;/
The NYPD Tapes: Inside Bed-Stuy's 81st Precinct
Two years ago, a police officer in a Brooklyn precinct became gravely concerned about how the public was being served. To document his concerns, he began carrying around a digital sound recorder, secretly recording his colleagues and superiors.
They reveal that precinct bosses threaten street cops if they don't make their quotas of arrests and stop-and-frisks, but also tell them not to take certain robbery reports in order to manipulate crime statistics. The tapes also refer to command officers calling crime victims directly to intimidate them about their complaints.
.....
On June 12, 2008, Lieutenant B. relayed the summons target: "The XO [second-in-command] was in the other day. He actually laid down a number. He wants at least three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others. All right, so if I was on patrol, I would be sure to get three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/1
Main theme of the article, despite what the "official" word is there is in fact a quota but the rank and file guys hate enforcing it but the pressure to meet their "goals" comes from their commanding officers to the detriment of their jobs if they don't comply. What this officer did was brave and one of the best examples of an honest police officer since Frank Serpico. These tapes where made public weeks ago, and there's been no public outcry nor are any major papers or news networks talking about it, why I don't know. It pretty much refutes all the lies NY'ers have been told by the Mayors office and the police department about ticketing quotas for years. If nothing happens even with this purponderance of evidence against the police dept. by one of their own don't expect many other officer to risk their jobs to bring corruption into the light especially if no one cares.
Sucks for the officer he'll probably be fired for "poor job performance" or some other b.s. after this is done coming out and its obvious no one cares.
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What this officer did was brave and one of the best examples of an honest police officer since Frank Serpico.
hyperbole much? or do we need to get you outa the house more?
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How many officer's risk their job speaking out about brass and what they feel is widespread corruption?
Can you name a few for me because I don't know of any off the top of my head besides Serpico.
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well i looked and found everyplace i looked the tags gotta be lit up. in some cases you can do it without a seperate bulb my trailers for example. so your early complaint that "all you were doing wrong was no tag light" struck me as curious. the op has a legitiamte beef apparently. you? not so much unless you are trying to claim what you drove fit in an exempted class?
I'm disagreeing with the statute itself.
I was stopped legitimately for having a plate light out. It was honestly out all three times. No ticket any of the times either, so I got off with a verbal "Replace it and bring it to the PD to show me tomorrow" warning.
I think my beef with the statute is justified though.
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how about the head of the us park police?
or the bp guy who started the unraveling of the ramos campos coverup?
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I think my beef with the statute is justified though.
yea? how so? you were unaware that there was such a law? all three times?
or is it that philosophy where you get to alacarte your laws?
how about make it a poll question? is the tag light law an affront to liberty or not
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In regards to "quotas" here is an article that was just published in the local rag.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100513/NEWS01/5140336/1055/NEWS/Police+divided+over+ticket+quotas (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100513/NEWS01/5140336/1055/NEWS/Police+divided+over+ticket+quotas)
Local news
Cincinnati.Com » Local news
Last Updated: 5:22 pm | Thursday, May 13, 2010
Police divided over merits of ticket quotas
By Quan Truong • qtruong@enquirer.com • May 13, 2010
Many police don't like to call them "quotas." They prefer the term "performance standard."
That's when a police department requires officers to write a certain number of tickets to prove they are pulling their weight.
Every department has different rules - some more stringent than others - and different motivations.
Some, like Lockland and Springdale, say they do it to make sure officers aren't getting lazy. Others, like Colerain Township, say it's an archaic policy and that officers can't build rapport with citizens if they're constantly writing speeding tickets.
In Woodlawn, they don't deny it's a money maker, telling the staff that quotas would generate nearly $200,000 a year.
Woodlawn's ticket goals there were so strictly enforced that in one month's time, three police officers received warnings for not writing enough citations. A department memo said if each officer wrote at least 10 tickets a month, it would generate $194,000 a year. (The village's annual police budget is about $1.5 million.) The cost of a traffic ticket in Ohio ranges from $90 to $130.
"If we would send our criminal cases into Mayor's Court instead of downtown, it would generate even more revenue," Chief Walter Obermeyer wrote, later adding: "Officers who do not meet the standards will not receive their step increases or pay raises when the village approves them."
After The Enquirer reported on the policy, Obermeyer redacted the memo and said officers no longer would be disciplined for such reasons.
"In discussing this with the Manager, I have come to realize that enforcing a definite productivity goal can be interpreted the wrong way," Obermeyer wrote. "Therefore, there is no set ticket goal in the Village and no officer will be disciplined for failure to write a certain number of tickets."
Such blatant orders by Woodlawn's chief raise a question many police departments have struggled with for years: How fair is it to measure an officer's performance by citations and arrest numbers?
It's not fair at all, said Rich Roberts, an International Union of Police Associations spokesman.
"You can't predict how many people are going to break the law at any given time," Roberts said. "It tells you nothing really, and it's also, by the way, unfair to the public. If an officer is under pressure to write tickets, they lose almost all discretion."
Marlon Smiles, 34, of Fairfield, calls it "bull."
The tow-truck driver recently received an improper passing ticket on Kemper Road in Springdale and was at Mayor's Court on Wednesday. He planned to fight the citation "tooth and nail."
"It's messed up. It makes them write tickets for things they'd normally give you a warning for," Smiles said. "The public already doesn't trust the police, and this just makes it worse. Let the cops do their job."
Springdale's police chief refused to share his department's policy, saying, "Frankly, it's nobody's business."
A public records request shows Springdale sets a minimum of 150 citations per year for first- and third-shift officers and 180 for all other shifts.
"We don't have quotas," Chief Mike Laage said. "We have standards."
He posed this question: "Should administrators allow an officer to sit behind a building and not do anything?"
In Lockland, department policy requires officers to make 10 "contacts" a month, which could mean a speeding ticket or a domestic violence arrest.
"If I wanted to write tickets on an eight-hour shift, I could easily write 15 a day," Lockland Lt. Terry Wilkerson said. "Ten a month, if they're tickets or arrests, is not an overly large number."
It's not a way to generate revenue, he said, but rather to make sure officers are not slacking on taxpayers' dime.
That sort of policy was abandoned altogether in Colerain Township 15 years ago, when a new police chief decided that evaluating an officer's performance was not based on numbers alone.
When Officer Andy Demeropolis first started working there five years ago, he issued about 80 tickets a year. Today, he issues closer to 20.
Demeropolis said that isn't a sign he's slacking, but rather that he's been working so hard, fewer people violate the rules.
"Police departments have been going back and forth for the past decade on this," Demeropolis said. "Fifteen years ago, we did that. But then we started looking at a total picture of all your work. It's not just hard stats - it's how do you get along with other agencies, do you communicate well, your rapport with the public, and training."
Bills to ban quotas are pending this year in Illinois, Tennessee and Michigan, according to National Conference of State Legislatures. A number of states already have passed such laws, including California, Maryland, Texas and New York. Ohio is not one of them.
Those who support the bills say it protects the rights of individuals. Opponents argue the state has no business micro-managing municipalities.
"We need to ban them," Smiles said. "This affects the public greatly and it's not right."
Allowing these policies to go on won't help law enforcement's image in the public eye, Roberts said, adding, "Especially when they are used as a revenue generator, it's a disservice to everyone."
My favorite is: Springdale's police chief refused to share his department's policy, saying, "Frankly, it's nobody's business."
:O
In the next line the Enquirer got the policy via a FOIA request. I believe the chief has forgotten who he works for.
Also: Bills to ban quotas are pending this year in Illinois, Tennessee and Michigan, according to National Conference of State Legislatures. A number of states already have passed such laws, including California, Maryland, Texas and New York. Ohio is not one of them.
This shows that there is a great diversity in policy across these great United States.
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how about the head of the us park police?
or the bp guy who started the unraveling of the ramos campos coverup?
The Ramos/Compean case at the border? Fabens, TX? Rio Grande? I-10? I didn't think it was a cover-up, but what does that have to do with a plate light? I was under the impression that the shady van was their clue. I don't remember the details though. I was 21 when that happened. Been a few years.
Where are you going with this?
I think my beef with the statute is justified though.
yea? how so? you were unaware that there was such a law? all three times?
or is it that philosophy where you get to alacarte your laws?
how about make it a poll question? is the tag light law an affront to liberty or not
I'm aware of the statute. My observance of it is fine after I got a fuse replaced. They won't actually fine you or ticket you for it around here. I honestly don't worry about it.
And I'm not going to make a poll, but I think you'll find a lot of members of APS find 90% of laws to be an affront to liberty.
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the border case was for seenterman
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The BP case isn't a good comparison to the Bed-Stuy tapes. There was no cover up , it was one officer who talked to investigator about two other officers who where involved in a shooting that wasn't documented.
There where no superiors that where engaged in a cover up. What that officer did was honest, I don't mean to demean his willingness to come forward that but its not comparable to what seems to be an entire citywide policy of having "quotas" especially when (thanks to adively's article) there's a specific bill that forbids that activity.
I couldn't find anything about the head of the US park police so I can't comment on that.
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There was no cover up
ramos and campos were convicted essentially for covering up their own crime they lied a misdemeanor into a felony
heres the park cop
http://www.centerforinvestigativereporting.org/blogpost/20080215parkpolicewhistleblowerwinscaseagainstfeds
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There was no cover up
ramos and campos were convicted essentially for covering up their own crime they lied a misdemeanor into a felony
Not correct. Ramos and Compean were involved in a purportedly legit shooting (Compean's word against a drug smuggler's word). R and C were obligated to inform their superiors that a shooting had occured, but since said superiors were within hearing distance and had to have known about it, they didn't bother.
Then international politics got involved and someone had to be thrown under the bus. The prosecutors twisted their failure to report something that everyone already knew into some sort of sinister cover up when it was nothing of the sort.
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you might wanna check out the written report. there were other witnesses and the shootings(plural) they both shot were bogus and they started when one of em hollered at the other to hit a man with his hands in the air surrendering. thats what the fellow agents testified to in court anyway and then they hide the shell casings to cover up started and like topsy it just grew and ate em up
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I read the court transcripts and reports back when it all big news. It was clear that R and C did some dumb things, but it was also clear they didn't conspire to murder Davila and cover it up (or, if they did, there was insufficient evidence of it presented).
This is one of those instances where the public dialog bears little resemblance to the actual events. Sorta like the public discourse over the AZ immigration law. What the law actually says and what people say it says are way different.
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i think 14 shots from 1 and 1 from the other indicates an attempt to kill him. so did the jury. there poor markmanship notwithstanding. if they had reported what they did at worst they would hve got an administrative punishment. the coverup is what hung em. that and the other agents testimony. they got screwed on sentence but they were guilty or at least thats what a texas jury decided
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Cops always claim there are no quotas for tickets, that writing lots and lots of tickets doesn't help the chance for promotion etc. Does anyone really believe that?
Pretty much, yeah. At least around here, can't speak to any other locale. I've made the observation numerous times to numerous people that they don't write enough tickets around here. The general attitude seems to be "no harm-no foul". However, there are occasional "campaigns" to straighten up problem areas. There is a joke about Las Vegas: "How do you tell a tourist from a local? The local is driving the fourth car through the red light." If traffic laws are not enforced, don't expect people to follow them.
OTOH, I grew up in small-town Ohio. I fully understand the reality of "speed traps".
And re: tag lights... it seems that there is not a lot of concern around here about the legibility of the tag. The major concern is that it have a current tax sticker. Gotta keep the cash coming in, eh? :laugh:
DD