Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ryan in Maine on June 09, 2010, 11:11:03 PM
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Does anyone have more info on this case? We've got both sides pointing fingers despite being in agreement on things statistically.
We've got an unknown number of people throwing rocks at US Border Patrol agents during a potential apprehension and an agent responding with deadly force.
We've got unknown Mexican authorities drawing on US Border Patrol agents in a confusing and contentious border standoff.
We've got more rock/firecracker throwing taking place after the shooting.
We've got Mexican authorities drawing again, from across the border, during the stateside investigation.
Whaaat is going on?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/border_patrol_shooting (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/border_patrol_shooting)
By CHRISTOPHER SHERMAN and OLIVIA TORRES, Associated Press Writers Christopher Sherman And Olivia Torres, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 12 mins ago
CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico – Pointing their rifles, Mexican security forces chased away U.S. authorities investigating the shooting of a 15-year-old Mexican by a U.S. Border Patrol agent on the banks of the Rio Grande, the FBI and witnesses told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The killing of the Mexican by U.S. authorities — the second in less than two weeks — has exposed the distrust between the two countries that lies just below the surface, and has enraged Mexicans who see the death of the boy on Mexican soil as an act of murder.
Mexico's government says the number of Mexicans injured by U.S. immigration authorities has increased this year.
Shortly after the boy was shot, Mexican soldiers arrived at the scene and pointed their guns at the Border Patrol agents across the riverbank while bystanders screamed insults and hurled rocks and firecrackers, FBI spokeswoman Andrea Simmons said. She said the agents were forced to withdraw.
"It pretty quickly got very intense over on the Mexican side," she said, adding that FBI agents showed up later and resumed the investigation, even as Mexican authorities pointed guns at them from across the river.
Hernandez was found 20 feet (six meters) into Mexico, and an autopsy revealed that the fatal shot was fired at a relatively close range, according to Arturo Sandoval, a spokesman for the Chihuahua state attorney general's office. Mexican authorities said a .40 caliber shell casing was found near the body, suggesting that the Border Patrol agent might have crossed into Mexico to shoot the boy.
That would violate the rules for Border Patrol agents, who are supposed to stay on the U.S. side — and could open the agent to a Mexican homicide prosecution.
A U.S. official close to the investigation told the AP that authorities have a video showing that the Border Patrol agent did not cross into Mexico. In fact, the official said, the video shows what appear to be members of Mexican law enforcement crossing onto the U.S. side, picking something up and returning to Mexico. The official was not cleared to speak about the video and spoke only on condition of anonymity.
Mexican President Felipe Calderon pledged to "use all resources available to protect the rights of Mexican migrants," and his foreign secretary, Patricia Espinosa, said Mexico wasn't taking the Americans' word that the Border Patrol agent had been defending himself from rock-throwers when he opened fire.
Chihuahua state Gov. Jose Reyes Baeza blamed the two killings on racism fueled by Arizona's law.
"We believe that this killing, the second in recent days in the border between the two countries, is due to xenophobia and racism, derived from the approval of Arizona's anti-immigration law," Reyes said.
Mexico's Foreign Relations Department said its records indicate the number of Mexicans killed or wounded by immigration authorities rose from five in 2008 to 12 in 2009 to 17 so far this year, which is not half over. However, two killings in such a short period is rare.
Meanwhile, the Border Patrol released statistics showing that assaults on agents along the border between El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, were on pace to far exceed totals in the previous four years.
In the past seven months, Border Patrol agents in the El Paso sector have been assaulted 33 times, compared with 39 times in the entire previous year. Twenty-nine of those incidents were rock-throwing, compared to 31 such incidents in all of fiscal 2009.
Associated Press Writer Julie Watson in San Diego contributed to this report.
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Build the wall. 50 feet high and 20 ft into the ground, solid concrete 5 ft thick. THEN mine our side of it.
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It seems to me that we have to go to the root of the problem, which is the screwed up nature of Mexico. They support the flow of illegal immigrants to the US, since they send back massive amounts of cash. Would it be (legally) possible to stop the flow of money back to Mexico?
That would make the illegal immigration situation a bit more palatable, as US dollars would stay in the US, and Mexico's second largest source of income (IIRC) would dry up. Then again, that income drying up could cause Mexico to turn into a Spanish-speaking Somalia - with all the trouble they're having with the cartels.
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1. Remind the Mexican "authorities" that bullets can travel both ways across the border.
2. Build the wall. Supplement with unmanned drones and sniper positions.
3. Start deporting Mexican citizens in the US illegally from this country back to Mexico. When they're dropped off at the border, give them a rifle and 1000 rounds of ammo and tell them to fix their own country first....
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They appear to have removed shell casings from our side to theirs to try to show that our guys crossed the river to shoot the kids.
But we have the video.
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They appear to have removed shell casings from our side to theirs to try to show that our guys crossed the river to shoot the kids.
But we have the video.
Don'tcha just love manufactured evidence? Is the video posted anywhere?
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"It's partially standing up to voice our concerns about this very unequal response to people throwing rocks," said Yolanda Leyva, a history professor at the University of Texas-El Paso who spoke at the vigil. The gathering also showed solidarity with the people of Juarez and called for a thorough investigation, she said.
Seems like there's always at least one useful idiot willing to say how the rock throwers were just innocent choir boys standing up to the evils of The Man and were totally harmless.
Rock throwing is lethal force, a well thrown rock to the head can kill or severely injure very easily. Not to mention that throwing rocks at men with guns is extremely stupid, in this case it turned out to be terminally stupid for one person.
It'll be interesting how Obama handles this, I fully expect him to throw the border patrol agents to the wolves of Mexico, any of them that go across that border are not coming back again for a long long time, if ever.
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Is the video posted anywhere?
strangely no
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Is the video posted anywhere?
strangely no
Not so strangely . . . after all, it would probably inflame passions and arouse anger against our friends to the South. Unless someone in fed.gov leaks the video, don't hold your breath waiting to see it . . .
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The video shouldn't be "leaked" since it is evidence in a criminal investigation.
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Those of you who are going on about "make them fix Mexico" etc. instead of coming here are right on the money.
And that's the reason the .govs on BOTH sides of the border are not serious about making more than pro-forma displays of border control.
Mexico practices "win-lose" capitalism. They believe they need their poor underclass to stay where it is for their society to function. And there are institutional barriers to individual economic improvement. And Mexico likes to point fingers at the U.S. for slavery, and the history of Black/White problems here, but Mexico is a very divided nation, the darker you are, and the more Native blood you have, the lower you are, while the lighter and more Spaniard you are, the higher. And of course, add to that narco-terror, and massive corruption/kleptocracy, and what Mexico looks like is not hard to understand.
By comparison, the U.S. at least tries to practice win-win capitalism. We believe if a poor person makes good, it's great, they're no longer a burden on society, and they generate even more economic activity which creates opportunity and business for even more people. We may have barriers to this in the form of the welfare state, and "progressive" tax policy, but it's not an American cultural value that the "poor should stay where they are". As a rule, we all wish they WOULD get ahead.
So in Mexico, anyone with the gumption to "do something about it" comes here to the U.S. instead of demanding reform, or causing revolution. This is a HUGE pressure-relief valve for Mexico to maintain the status-quo, and of course their .gov knows this, to the point they openly criticize any enforcement of the U.S. border, and even provides maps and safety advice to the people trying to leave. ;/
IMO, the powers that be here in the U.S. put up with it because they fear that a real crackdown on the illegals would raise the pressure-cooker effect in Mexico, and what would result might be very much NOT to their liking, and look something more like Venezuela or Cuba.
Meh... I'd take the chance.
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don't you hate those cameras? bet this agent does.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
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Build the frakkin' wall.
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And Mexico likes to point fingers at the U.S. for slavery, and the history of Black/White problems here, but Mexico is a very divided nation, the darker you are, and the more Native blood you have, the lower you are, while the lighter and more Spaniard you are, the higher.
This. I find accusations of racism and xenophobia coming from Mexican officials to be laughable. It's one of the more racist and xenophobic places I've visited. I also love the border hypocrisy. Mexico conveniently forgets how it treats people trying to enter its southern border illegally.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-VYvQPA1o8
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Well, that's one border-hopper who won't be border-hopping any time soon.
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I can't verify this, but I heard this morning that the 15-year-old was a well-known human smuggler, not some innocent victim.
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Problems like the one we have with Mexico are ultimately settled by one side or the other "absorbing" the other, on its terms. That is a nice word for vanquishing. The reality is that we are at war with Mexico. Right now, for a complex confluence of reasons, some economic, some political, some "moral," Mexico is winning this war. It remains to be seen whether America has the spine to do what is necessary to accept what's happening and save itself.
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I can't verify this, but I heard this morning that the 15-year-old was a well-known human smuggler, not some innocent victim.
But I saw a quote where his mother said he was a nice and loved young man who never was in any trouble ;/
I suspect the miscreants know not to throw rocks at Mexican soldiers and police or else.
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But I saw a quote where his mother said he was a nice and loved young man who never was in any trouble ;/
Never in any trouble because he never got caught by the police he was harrassing, before.
Deliberate border-hopping to taunt police and flaunt the law. Yep. No trouble at all, there.
I'm also hearing mixed rumors that he was an associate of smugglers.
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i read a statement from the bp that said their agent was surrounded by stone throwers. then i saw a video that makes ya wonder if they learned nothing from campeon and ramos
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It'll be interesting how Obama handles this.
Do you really have to ask? Before the facts are in, he'll apologize. [barf]
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thats ironic you watch the vid yet?
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i read a statement from the bp that said their agent was surrounded by stone throwers. then i saw a video that makes ya wonder if they learned nothing from campeon and ramos
I also saw a video, filmed from the Mexican side of the border.
4 kids ran back to the Mexico side as a BP officer rode in the area on a bike. One kid was detained and the agent was pulling him, then the agent went to his knees. The video is too grainy and unsteady to make out any objects being thrown, but I assume this is when the rock throwing starts. He points his gun towards the train bridge where the kid who gets shot is hiding.
Then the video changes contrast for some unknown reason and everything goes ultra black/white, whereas it used to be color. Two gunshots.
Then the video returns to normal color.
The officer was not "surrounded" as in a dozen people stoning him like Mary Magdalene, but it does appear he was getting assaulted from multiple directions by rock throwers. He sweeps a 45 to 90 degree arc with his gun while crouching defensively.
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Alone, middle of the desert, multiple people throwing rocks bigger than pebbles?
Oh yeah, I'd shoot. :mad:
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Alone, middle of the desert, multiple people throwing rocks bigger than pebbles?
Oh yeah, I'd shoot. :mad:
darn shame he wasn't alone in the middle of the desert. and some of the witnesses are problematic. now that one tape is out i expect the gov to show theirs if it helps
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Never in any trouble because he never got caught by the police he was harrassing, before.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
"My people have spoken to his family. His dad says he was a straight-A student. His secondary school even sent him on an academic trip because of his good grades," Mayor Jose Reyes Ferriz said.
How far away do you guys think that was from where he fired to where the boy was shot? Looked like some distance.
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. . . now that one tape is out i expect the gov to show theirs if it helps
Depends who it helps . . . supporting BP isn't as high a priority as supporting illegal aliens. =(
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How far away do you guys think that was from where he fired to where the boy was shot? Looked like some distance.
60 feet according to your article.
I can chuck a baseball sized rock with enough force to crack a skull from 60 feet.
Remember, Tueller distance is 21 feet. That assumes your attacker has a knife, and you have a firearm. Change the attacker to a projectile-based weapon such as a rock, and the defensive distance changes accordingly. 50-60 feet is a very reasonable threat range. About the length of a typical suburban cookie-cutter back yard fence.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/texas.border.patrol.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
How far away do you guys think that was from where he fired to where the boy was shot? Looked like some distance.
"They're throwing rocks," witnesses screaming in Spanish can be heard in the background of the video as the officer opens fire. "They hit him ... they hit him."
Good thing no one ever died from getting hit by rocks, otherwise that Boder Patrol officer might have been in fear for his life.
I suppose he should have just let the one criminal he caught go since the rest of the criminals were putting up a fight. I mean, that's how we deal with aggressors, now, isn't it? We give them what they want?
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http://www.univision.com/content/videoplayer.jhtml?cid=2432212
meat is between one and 2 mins. shows the distance pretty well . i'm on the fence. if the kid he hit in the head dropped where shot its a bit far if he got hit and ran before dropping then its easier to side with the agent. shame they can't just hold the one kid up between them and the stone throwers. even bigger shame the kid was hit in mexico
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darn shame he wasn't alone in the middle of the desert. and some of the witnesses are problematic. now that one tape is out i expect the gov to show theirs if it helps
I mean "alone" as in "other BP agents/backup not right there with me to help".
"In the area" is not good enough, and passive bystanders, and the illegals Mexican nationals, and other unknown actors don't count either.
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he had backup closer than the rock throwers though the guy on the bike was closest to the border. he rode up and cut off the kids retreat. good move. i hope they don't screw him but hes under the microscope. hes pumped up and dealing with multiple threats including the unhandcuffed unsearched kid hes holding with one hand. very easy to second guess and he had about 1 second to make his call. damn shame all the way around
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I can chuck a baseball sized rock with enough force to crack a skull from 60 feet.
20 yards just isn't that far. I can throw a golf ball hard enough to meet the Texas requirement for it to be considered "deadly force" at that range. (Reasonably expected to cause serious bodily injury.) Accurately enough to hit anyone is another question, but if it does, it can do some significant damage.
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It all hinges on the border-hoppers throwing rocks.
If they were, BP agent was justified in shooting.
I think it is a shame the BP agent had to shoot someone, but I don't think it s a shame a rock-throwing border-hopper got shot. If he was throwing rocks, he got what he deserved. I really don;t care what side of the border he was on.
Speculation Time:
Were the only rock-tossers the ones with the (formerly) walking backstop? The cell phone video, as ate up as it is, shows that there was at least one other group close to the BP officer.
20 yards just isn't that far. I can throw a golf ball hard enough to meet the Texas requirement for it to be considered "deadly force" at that range. (Reasonably expected to cause serious bodily injury.) Accurately enough to hit anyone is another question, but if it does, it can do some significant damage.
Twenty yards is not far enough to be safe from my rock-chucking skills.
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http://www.univision.com/content/videoplayer.jhtml?cid=2432212
meat is between one and 2 mins. shows the distance pretty well . i'm on the fence. if the kid he hit in the head dropped where shot its a bit far if he got hit and ran before dropping then its easier to side with the agent. shame they can't just hold the one kid up between them and the stone throwers. even bigger shame the kid was hit in mexico
The aqueduct is US Territory. All of it. Not just the north half of it. If you look at the Border, the US controls the river/aqueduct areas.
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Does anyone wonder what would happen if you threw a rock at a Zeta, on U.S. soil, Mexican Soil, or across the border?
Thought so.
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I'm surprised war, or at least "military action," hasn't been taken yet.
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The aqueduct is US Territory. All of it. Not just the north half of it. If you look at the Border, the US controls the river/aqueduct areas.
that would make it unique amongst river borders
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It all hinges on the border-hoppers throwing rocks.
If they were, BP agent was justified in shooting.
I think it is a shame the BP agent had to shoot someone, but I don't think it s a shame a rock-throwing border-hopper got shot. If he was throwing rocks, he got what he deserved. I really don;t care what side of the border he was on.
Speculation Time:
Were the only rock-tossers the ones with the (formerly) walking backstop? The cell phone video, as ate up as it is, shows that there was at least one other group close to the BP officer.
Twenty yards is not far enough to be safe from my rock-chucking skills.
some of the other vid is better but i don't think there is any question about rocks being thrown the one girl in the cell phone vid is talking about the stupid one throwing rocks
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that would make it unique amongst river borders
i just used google earth the border is more or less in the center of the river in some caes it wanders to one side or the other of the concrete channel i was unable to find the actual bridge and where it falls right there could be important for the agent
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I'm surprised war, or at least "military action," hasn't been taken yet.
That's what worried me, actually, and is the part I'm getting confused over. If Mexican soldiers were actually drawing on US Border Patrol agents, even during the subsequent investigation, that's unacceptable to say the least.
It may be small scale, but that is a pretty direct threat from a foreign military.
Can anyone say if it was soldiers, police, or some other authority on the Mexican side? I've heard nothing but conflicting reports.
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Problems like the one we have with Mexico are ultimately settled by one side or the other "absorbing" the other, on its terms.
Well, if they want so bad to be in the USA, we could just annex mexico :P
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From what I can see Mexico has already annexed us.
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¡Recepción a México del norte!
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I *really* want some Texas, New Mexico, or Arizona sheriff to capture a truckload of Mexican Army troops on our side of the river running interference for smugglers. Throw them in jail and refuse to release them to Hillary; let it blow up into an international incident. (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fsmiley-fc%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=c51272af4740a42cfc1fa722a6fe57c6f35de205) (Obama would apologize, of course.)
Wishful thinking tho', because I doubt a sheriff would have enough firepower without help from maybe a NG helicopter.
It'll have to be state law enforcement because I suspect the Border Patrol, US Marshals, etc. are under orders not to interfere.
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It'll have to be state law enforcement because I suspect the Border Patrol, US Marshals, etc. are under orders not to interfere.
too many to keep a secret
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sounds to me like it's time to start flying the US flag and celebrating "The Alamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo)"(just my cute name, you know what i mean.) on May 5th. [popcorn]
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I don't honestly care for all of the minute little details. The bottom line is this, Throw rocks at Border Patrol agents, expect to get shot. I don't care if the dead guy wasn't throwing a rock personally. He should have known better than to play chicken on International Borders, and if anything, his blood is on his ahole buddies' hands.
Our Border guys have every right in the world to defend themselves against such blatant crap.
They don't respect us, they may as well fear us.
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I wish there would be some military action. That's something I would like to participate in. Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to. Like a snake striking after being prodded too many times, we need to unleash hell if only for a few days, and then have a cease fire just so they know who is boss.
Then build the wall, with landmines.
I think an ultra hard line stance wouldn't even need to last permanently. Change our border policy to an crosser on foot will be shot, no questions asked, and any vehicles will meet an AT4 or Hellfire, and I bet border traffic would decline to a trickle after only a short while. So many people cross be cause it's so easy and they know we won't do anything. If we really start blowing the up without hesitation, I thinkit will have a cumulative effect on all would be crossers.
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I wish there would be some military action. That's something I would like to participate in. Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to. Like a snake striking after being prodded too many times, we need to unleash hell if only for a few days, and then have a cease fire just so they know who is boss.
Then build the wall, with landmines.
I think an ultra hard line stance wouldn't even need to last permanently. Change our border policy to an crosser on foot will be shot, no questions asked, and any vehicles will meet an AT4 or Hellfire, and I bet border traffic would decline to a trickle after only a short while. So many people cross be cause it's so easy and they know we won't do anything. If we really start blowing the up without hesitation, I thinkit will have a cumulative effect on all would be crossers.
crazy talk (with all due respect)
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crazy talk (with all due respect)
Well we either do something about it now or meet the slow decay of Rome.
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Mexico's behavior has been muy loco for a long time.
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crazy talk (with all due respect)
Not really.
A vehicle crossing the border, across the desert, is 99.44% going to be involved in the drug trade, or one of the more well-to-do human smugglers that traffic in blackmail, kidnapping and child prostitution to augment the usual coyote fees.
Got no problem with one that, when ordered to stop and refuses to do so, gets vaporized by a missile or filled with machine gun holes.
And the large trains of humans who walk their way up from Mexico, pay for their guidance by carting in either a large bale of marijuana on their shoulders, or a kilo of cocaine or heroin in their pack. They're complicit drug smugglers.
I've seen both of these elements first-hand.
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Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to.
As I've said elsewhere, invade, annex, keep the mineral rights and give the rest to Puerto Rico as a going-away present.
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I honestly don't know any easy solutions to the Mexico problem (especially with the current political climate) - aside from making our country economically worse off than they are.
It doesn't work when only our people are willing to stop illegals from crossing over. Mexico has to help out, and they will need a significant push (or blackjack across the skull) to get them moving in the right direction.
It would be very entertaining to start taking over Mexican oil rigs to offset the costs their illegals are racking up in our country. If the Mexican government is not penalized for its support of illegals, it won't stop doing it. That could mean ousting the government. That could mean a full-scale, decades-long occupation by several hundred thousand (or a few million) US troops.
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I think it will work even if we're the only ones who want to keep illegals from crossing the border. But we need to be serious about it. Not some legislation and a few miles of broken chain link fence. No wall will keep absolutely everyone across. But A good one would keep nearly all of them out. Is there any reason why an actual 50' concrete wall with a good 20+ feet underground as well wouldn't stop 95% of illegal traffic? This isn't something new. Cities and nations have used walls to keep invaders out for thousands of years. Nations who are serious about their borders have made wall that are pretty effective. The US just isn't serious about, hence the chain link fence used in a lot of places. Replace that with concrete, and another 40' to the height and maybe put some landmines beyond it, and you can't say it won't cut down on illegal immigration and drug smuggling in a big way.
We don't need Mexico to care about the problem. We just need to care enough ourselves.
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a full-scale, decades-long occupation by several hundred thousand (or a few million) US troops
Well, at least the commute would be shorter ;) :lol:
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Change our border policy to an crosser on foot will be shot, no questions asked, and any vehicles will meet an AT4 or Hellfire, and I bet border traffic would decline to a trickle after only a short while.
Yea!!! Lets slaughter ANYONE who tries to get into our country! Its not like anyone would make a fuss, I mean just look how well everyone took the news that Israel killed 9 block aid runners that were trying to kill Israeli commandos. No one blew that out of proportion, so of course no one would care if we just shot people who posed no threat!
I wish there would be some military action. That's something I would like to participate in. Not a full invasion of Mexico mind you, just an outburst to show that we still can wipe them out of we want to. Like a snake striking after being prodded too many times, we need to unleash hell if only for a few days, and then have a cease fire just so they know who is boss.
And lets kill a bunch of Mexicans in Mexico to make the point that were really serious!!! Sure just launch a couple of ICBM's and the Mexicans will cower in fear of us. Sure they'll be absolutely zero response, not like that'd be an act of war or anything and it would be unpossible for the Mexicans to launch a guerrilla war like in Afghanistan on American soil =|.
Of course a wall with proper sensors and an adequate staffing of guards would be able to stop 99% of the illegal immigration problem but killing people is easier and so much more funnnn!
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I say let everyone in this hemisphere that wants to come in to work have some form of status that puts them on the books and pays taxes.
No citizenship, no SS/Medicare benefits but legal status to be here and work, on the books.
While we are at it, eliminate all the roadblocks that keep Europeans and and those from Asia from being able to immigrate here.
The more we let in the better.
We don't live in an exclusive club, we live in the United States of America, the place where those who want to work and be free come to chase their dreams.
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Ron, our country doesn't work that way anymore.
I'd have ABSOLUTELY no problem with wide open borders pending a clean criminal background check (instantly done, no wait) if we didn't have the social safety net that is bankrupting us.
These people get food stamps, welfare, dodge taxes by committing identity fraud and then claiming exemption on their W2's, and visit our hospital emergency rooms without paying.
You can't have open borders with that kind of system.
Kill the welfare state, and I'm good with open borders.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Mine it and mark it.
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Getting The Fence done is essential, but this is about far more than a fence to keep out more illegal aliens. The time for The Fence was 1986; you have 20 million illegals--and that's a conservative estimate--already INSIDE our borders, plus their children. The Fence will do nothing about them. And The Fence will do even less about the arrayed forces inside government, NGOs, media, the academy, the legal profession, and a host of business interests that lobby incessantly for The Invasion.
Not only are we NOT about to do a Black Jack Pershing on Mexico we are waging a holding action to stop an amnesty that would radically transform this nation politically, socially, economically, and culturally. Family reunification policies would ensure that however many millions get legitimized, two, three, five times that number will get access rights. Say goodbye to America as we've known it, and anyone who believes that a hefty percentage of these newcomers would not be recipients of a hugely magnified welfare state is crazy. You will have two-thirds of this future America on the dole. Who will be left to pay the bills, much less defend the values inherited from the Framers?
No, there are no good or easy options left, but we can begin by disabusing ourselves of our fantasies about what's going on right now, both at the border and inside the border and in the capitols of foreign states, and getting clear on what our choices really consist in at this point. I think we are past the point where draconian action can be avoided; the only question is who is going to be on the receiving end of the draconianism.
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I say let everyone in this hemisphere that wants to come in to work have some form of status that puts them on the books and pays taxes.
No citizenship, no SS/Medicare benefits but legal status to be here and work, on the books.
While we are at it, eliminate all the roadblocks that keep Europeans and and those from Asia from being able to immigrate here.
The more we let in the better.
We don't live in an exclusive club, we live in the United States of America, the place where those who want to work and be free come to chase their dreams.
You are talking about an America that never was.
The welfare state is here. It's growing, not shrinking. It isn't going away unless our economy drops down a black hole, and if that happens, we will be in Mad Max land, not the land of tea parties. To stop the welfare state means to tear up the "contract" and start over. Ready for that?
As for more Europeans, forget it. The people who run the immigration polices in America and have for decades have no intention of re-europeanizing America. You can ask yourself why that might be the case. Better would be if ordinary citizens began to demand answers from the administration and, specifically, the State Dept. about their policies. It's a little late for that, though, isn't it? They wanted to change America, and they did. It is what it is.
You say we don't live in an "exclusive club," and that raises interesting questions about law, sovereignty, and citizenship, but I'll just say that in fact an exclusive club has been running America for quite a while now. And you are correct, YOU don't live in it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't play by its own rules.
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there are no good or easy options left
Secession / devolution =|
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Secession will never happen.
Devolution is already underway.
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Secession per se may never happen, but fragmentation definitely will. That may mean de-centralization of government, it may mean chronic anarchy and tribal warlords; it may be an entropic welfare state. But just as socialism may be sold to Americans under a different and more euphemistic label, so too may secession.
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Legalize drugs, and stage constant random employment raids by ICE, and a few more states pass AZ style laws (And CA enforces the one they had FIRST) and the cross-border shenanigans will drop by 75-95% within a year, no wall needed.
The 25-5% that remain, BP with a better ROE could take care of easily.
The political will for none of this exists however.
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Secession per se may never happen, but fragmentation definitely will. That may mean de-centralization of government, it may mean chronic anarchy and tribal warlords; it may be an entropic welfare state. But just as socialism may be sold to Americans under a different and more euphemistic label, so too may secession.
This is what I am thinking. I believe that in my lifetime, and I'm 26, I am going to live through the destruction of the United States. Not a destruction through war mind you. But I think it will come in one of 2 ways, probably eventually both. First, I think that in order to save the social structure that is being broken by the influx of illegals, economic stresses, a collapsing welfare state, etc some form of dictatorship will be formed. I think the America where we legitimately elect politicians who leave office when their terms are up is going to end, and soon. Some form of a Police State (a real one, not the delusions of one some anarchists think we have now), will be enacted to preserve the appearance of a functioning nation. After that collapses, I think the US will quietly dissolve into smaller nations. Now if you're an optimist, that may be in the form of several smaller nations, but ones that once again honor liberty, achievement, and have some form of technological progress. A second Renaissance Era so to speak. If you're a pessimist, like me, I think the breakup of the US into smaller states will also be met with hostilities from abroad and a reversion to a feudal or warlord system within the former US.
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I'll let others guess whether I'm an optimist or a pessimist. All I can say is beware the death throes of dying giants. As things devolve, The Rage will grow, and it is always far easier to destroy than create. The world's had a pretty good run from the Renaissance until today, though not without convulsive "interruptions," but what we haven't had for a long while is the serious potential for all-out cultural homicide. With today's weapons and with the benighted morality of so many high and low, our historical legacy is in serious jeopardy. I don't necessarily believe we will all be living in small, walled agrarian communities, but I have the feeling that the civilization of the future will be rather pockmarked.
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This is what I am thinking. I believe that in my lifetime, and I'm 26, I am going to live through the destruction of the United States. Not a destruction through war mind you. But I think it will come in one of 2 ways, probably eventually both. First, I think that in order to save the social structure that is being broken by the influx of illegals, economic stresses, a collapsing welfare state, etc some form of dictatorship will be formed. I think the America where we legitimately elect politicians who leave office when their terms are up is going to end, and soon. Some form of a Police State (a real one, not the delusions of one some anarchists think we have now), will be enacted to preserve the appearance of a functioning nation. After that collapses, I think the US will quietly dissolve into smaller nations. Now if you're an optimist, that may be in the form of several smaller nations, but ones that once again honor liberty, achievement, and have some form of technological progress. A second Renaissance Era so to speak. If you're a pessimist, like me, I think the breakup of the US into smaller states will also be met with hostilities from abroad and a reversion to a feudal or warlord system within the former US.
i'm twice your age so i've heard your fears at least once before usually it was fear of blacks though the boat people were pretty scary to some folks for a while too.
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I don't think the civil rights era can be quite compared to the current situation, though some of the fears may be the same. Black in the 60s really were just Americans who wanted to be treated like everyone else. To become part of American society and just live their lives as Americans.
This crisis involves an actual foreign nation encroaching on our borders, with crimes being perpetrated by their formal military and national polices. Combined with millions of illegals who really don't want to be American. They don't want to become part of American society, they want to bleed our society dry. Factor in the Reconquista types who want to actually take physical land from the US by whatever means necessary and you have a whole new problem far more dangerous than the false fears some had during the Civil rights era. I don't recall Kenyan soldiers shooting an American police.
And compounding all of this is an American political system that is complicit with our own destruction. The Welfare State is unsustainable. But it does buy short term votes. The politicians have made their feelings clear. They would rather sell out the future for some votes now. America had enough stored wealth and prosperity to stave off decay for a long while in the 60s. When the Great Society and all of FDRs old programs came to fruition, there was enough wealth still around to buy people off. Not so anymore. We have millions of people, who are already filled with anger and disdain at American culture, who are expecting the handouts to keep coming. But when the checks stop coming and the Bridge cards start getting declined, and they will, America is gonna see some rough times. Far worse that any Detroit or LA riot.
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Black in the 60s really were just Americans who wanted to be treated like everyone else. To become part of American society and just live their lives as Americans.
your experience differs from mine i find many parallels between then and now though i am hampered by having actually been around in the 60's as opposed to reading about it
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Even removing the illegal immigration and culture failure to assimilate into America culture aspects, what is going to happen when half of the country stops getting paid to do nothing? When they run out of other people's money, what will happen?
America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through. An entire half of the nation, angry and bitter at the US already, suddenly having nothing but their anger. No matter how long they extend unemployment, or pass new bills funding new programs to keep people happy, the money will run out. What do you think will happen to the US then?
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America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through.
you have a great deal invested in a scenario i don't see coming true. its the latest iteration of the sky is falling. we are in some deep kim chee but i suspect we will come out the other side. we may end up buying it but this ain't it
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America has never defaulted on checks like this before. This is going to be something no one has lived through.
you have a great deal invested in a scenario i don't see coming true. its the latest iteration of the sky is falling. we are in some deep kim chee but i suspect we will come out the other side. we may end up buying it but this ain't it
You may have lived through a lot, but don't discount what I've seen either. There are soldiers in my MP compnay who are on unemployment. Friends of mine that I've hung out with. Guys my age, with some education, a lot of potential, and ability. Guys who are on unemployment because they can be. Guys who fill out applications just to keep the checks coming, and have no intention of getting a job because they don't have to.
The attitude of America has shifted fundamentally. We are a nation who passes the buck. We are a population who always blames someone else first. We always choose stuff freely given over stuff rightly earned. It's not just a small segment of the population. It's nearly everyone. An entire nation who truly thinks that someone else should pay for their house, pay for their gas, pay for their food, pay for their education, teach their kids, feed their kids, watch their kids, pay for their health-care, and so on and so on. Never before have people been so far detached from the consequences of their own actions. No job? The government will find you one and pay you for nothing til they do. No health-care? The government will pay for it. No food? The government has programs for that. No house? The government has special houses just for you. Defaulted on your loan? The government will bail you out. Run your business into the ground? The government will cover you. No one to watch your kids or feed them? The government will make sure they get 3 meals a day. No transportation? The government will run transportation. Get hurt? The government will save you. Victim of a crime? The government will protect you (and won't allow you to protect yourself)
That is the America of today. We are a nation of open palms. When those palms stop getting filled, I hope you're ready.
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Medved talked about that some yesterday. He thinks things were much worse in this country back in the 60's when people were rioting over the Vietnam War and there were 400 soldiers dead each week or so. He also thinks things were worse in the 70's under Carter.
In his opinion, things are not looking good right now and the voters look to be prepared to make corrections.
I guess we'll see.
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I hope I'm wrong. But you and I hang out with different crowds C&SD, and the voters of my age will be here long after you. I can count on one hand the amount of people my age that I think understand and appreciate self-responsibility. You old patriots are going to be gone someday. And my generation of beggars will be the only ones left.
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There are soldiers in my MP compnay who are on unemployment. Friends of mine that I've hung out with. Guys my age, with some education, a lot of potential, and ability. Guys who are on unemployment because they can be. Guys who fill out applications just to keep the checks coming, and have no intention of getting a job because they don't have to.
now i gotta admit that that does deeply disturb me. i saw some of that in the past and agree there is more now. how much more i'm unsure. it disturbs me much more than immigration issues.
on the flip side i work with some decent young folks. we'll see and i've not given up hope. on the flip side i've stocked up on supplies and am pretty well dug in
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I hope I'm wrong. But you and I hang out with different crowds C&SD, and the voters of my age will be here long after you. I can count on one hand the amount of people my age that I think understand and appreciate self-responsibility. You old patriots are going to be gone someday. And my generation of beggars will be the only ones left.
two things
this I hope I'm wrong.
marks you as old beyond your years and likely wise too
and don't include yourself in that sad group of beggars
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And that's all I see. You and I don't walk the same paths or circles. I spend my time on college campuses, in sociology and economics classes. I think I know the pulse of people my age, at least in my area. I don't see the same kind of attitude you have. I see a generation of kids who will someday be the only adults around. And it's a generation who thinks the government having its hand in absolutely everything is the best thing ever. If I had to pick one phrase to sum up people in their mid 20s it would be "why isn't someone do thing this for me?"
Let me tell you of something that happened in one of my intro econ classes a few years ago. We did an in class project about expenses and used the average expenses of a student as the example. Under the "Needs" category, people added cell phones, cars, entertainment, new clothes, etc. I was the only student in the entire class of about 25 that suggested people don't need cell phones, or entertainment, or that a bike can be substituted for a car or clothes can be bought second hand from thrift stores. I was nearly shouted down by most of the class. Those things remained on the board under "Needs". When discussing Income, nearly half the class was getting money from mom and dad, almost the entire class was getting student loans or Pell grants, and a few of the older ones were already getting food stamps and housing allowances.
The attitude of students and the adults of tomorrow is not the same as the attitude of some of your generation C&SD. Many of my generation have no idea what a world even looks like without the a government being involved in the most intimate aspects of their lives. In the minds of today's young adults and teens "a new government program" is the first and only thing they think of as the solution to an problem. The idea of solving something by yourself, or doing something by yourself and being rewarded or punished by yourself is just gone. Sports teams that give everyone a trophy just for being there. "Zero Tolerance" school policies that punish everyone for the misdeeds of a few. Even laws, like gun control, that hamper everyone in hopes of stopping a few crimes. C&SD, your high school days were marked by people bringing their deer guns to school during hunting season and maybe having to leave them in the principals office. My high school days were marked with metal detectors, full time school police officers, and random locker searches. When your generation is gone, there will be almost no one left in the country who has lived in a world where government was not part of every single aspect of their life from birth to death.
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RD:
Don't cry for me Argentina...
Argentina used to be wealthier, per capita, than the USA, not too long ago. Mix in some damnfool marxist/socialist policies, stir in class/race resentment, and let simmer. What comes out of the oven is chronic economic and political instability in a cycle of wealth-destruction. Also, a genuine, "kill political opponents" and "start wars to distract the population" dictatorship/oligarchy to punctuate the periods of chaos.
It's not Mad Max, but it sure ain't bean bag.
If it is America that plays Argentina-a-go-go, we can expect the world's economy to contract sharply as our Navy pulls back to the coasts and the seas are no longer open to commerce. Any new power to rise from the wreckage will be akin to the barbarian kingdoms that sacked Rome. We can call it, "The Dark Ages Part II: Poor, Stupid, and Armed with Legacy Nukes."
you have a great deal invested in a scenario i don't see coming true. its the latest iteration of the sky is falling. we are in some deep kim chee but i suspect we will come out the other side. we may end up buying it but this ain't it
America has weathered quite a few storms and still exists, more or less.
So did Rome, the British Empire, and all other hegemon cultures. They ALL eventually topple, as will America. Almost invariably due to rot from within. Not if, but when. When the Brits went tits up, America was there to hoist the burden of civilization. No other power of equal or rival economic output or dedication to liberty and the values of Western Civ exists.
By 2050, if trend hold, Europe will be ~50% Muslim and America will be near those numbers of Latin Americans with no love for or tradition of limited consensual gov't. During previous challenges, America could force newcomers to assimilate, or at least fake it to make it through the challenge.
A fine example is the repression of German culture up to and during WWI. Before WWI, there was a distinct German culture in America. Afterwards, not so much. BY WWII, it was deaddeaddead. In 24 years, the pressure put on migrant Germans by gov't and other Americans had stamped out any ideas of separateness.
The flood gates at the southern border have been open since 1964 and our elites have made it illegal to force assimilation while they preach multiculturalism. We have a large contingent of people who care not for America inside our borders. In any conflict with Latin America, we can expect them to take hte side of the enemy.
With a ruling class that is intent on cultural suicide and large numbers of immigrants whose values are alien, it makes weathering the storms much more difficult. Not impossible, as Rome showed it could last for hundreds of years as an empire/dictatorship under similar circumstances. But, eventually, the rot is too widespread to hold under the pressure and what was once unthinkable becomes reality. A reading of St Augustine of Hippo's works, life, and times is educational as he saw the transformation of N Africa from Christian to Muslim.
There can be rebirths/renaissance in cultures. Victorian England was one such critter. Victoria and her family stood as examples of good behavior to be modeled...and a great many did. Britain was truly "Great" for many more decades had not Victoria worked her will on the Brits. Likewise, after the barbarians destroyed the W Roman Empire, the E Roman Empire reconquered much of the West. In that ase, it was a dead cat bounce, as Rome was truly dead in the West and the gains soon slipped away. America has had religious Great Awakenings that had huge beneficial effects.
Maybe America will rebound. Who knows? I am not sure which way I would bet this time around. Invariably, the dice will come up snake eyes one of these times and America will be no more.
Now, that all might seem a bit academic, but now that I have a wife & kids it is the stuff of nightmares. TEOTKAWKI or American Decline to me is not an opportunity for Red Dawn-like antics, but my own personal book of Job.
Doc: "So sorry, MegaDrugCorpUSA's shipment of stainless steel production equipment from Taiwan was stolen by pirates the week after the Pacific Fleet 'redeployed' out of E Asia. They'll have the new batch of antibiotics your daughter needs in three months."
Me: "But, she needs them now, or she'll become deaf/crippled/die"
Doc: "If they ransom the equipment, you'll have them in one month, but the price will quintuple. You might be able to find them now on the black market for half your earthly possessions."
You can't store up all that we take for granted, nowadays, in some semi-rural bunker. 10,000 rounds of 5.56mm and 20 5-gal buckets of dry kidney beans won't freaking matter if you can't get the meds your kids need. The idea of eating that many kidney beans indefinitely is grim. Doing so after burying your kids after they died from <fill in with serious but currently curable ailment you find most horrific> would make me want to eat some of that 5.56 the hard way.
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Going off of the exchange between Ragnar and C&SD, I must ask the following:
Has the fear of "Loss of America" been as strong within living memory as it is now?
People often compare current events to the Carter era, or LBJ, or even as far back as FDR. The thing is, as with any historical progression, the factors, both major and minor, are different. Carter had his own poor decisions, LBJ had the Civil Rights Movement, FDR had the depression. This time, we have all three, amplified in some instances, less severe in others.
I'd also like to add that my own personal experiences and interpersonal relationships fall in the middle of both the aforementioned posters' experiences. I have many friends that work, understand exactly what a dollar will buy and what it won't; others, they are so dependent on the next government program that I honestly and sadly question their mental state.
I will freely admit (blaming this evening's surplus of rum) that I am currently existing on the dole of others more fortunate than myself; the difference being that in this case, the donation is made freely (as opposed to taxation) and that I am 1) actually attempting to further my education and thus my usefulness, and 2) actually applying for work that I am qualified for and would fully support me. My point is, the difference I'd like to point out is that for every dollar donated to me, for every meal that I don't "pay for," for every gallon of gas I burn that was covered by someone else, I feel a true and unrelenting sense of guilt. Though I apply myself within (and beyond) their expectations, a bite of food I couldn't pay for myself or a block I drive that I couldn't cover, I feel I owe it back to my benefactors more than I could ever forseeably repay.
I hope to God himself that our current situation is not one on a path of violence and anger, where riots claim dozens of lives daily. Rather, I hope that our political system remains untainted enough that it is still the self-correcting system it was intended to be, open to the true desires and concerns of the common citizenry to change as needed. I'm Ragnar's age, and therefore not qualified to compare current events with the past.
I must admit, though, I really don't know where we're headed. =(
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the fear of "blacks taking over" had a very similar tone and urgency. and was led by some of the same players .
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Blacks didn't take over.
But the welfare state did.
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I don't like where this went. :'(
I agree with Rag though. I'm 26 years old. See the same stuff he does every day. It's disturbing in a way I can't accurately describe.
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Where did it go?
I think step one is for us to be clear about the real current state of this Republic and then to understand the causes and the aims behind those causes.
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Insert Quote
Medved talked about that some yesterday. He thinks things were much worse in this country back in the 60's when people were rioting over the Vietnam War and there were 400 soldiers dead each week or so. He also thinks things were worse in the 70's under Carter.
In his opinion, things are not looking good right now and the voters look to be prepared to make corrections.
I guess we'll see.
The '60s and '70s made today's problems possible; they were a necessary prelude.
Medved has a lot more belief that the "system" will make the necessary course corrections than I do. For a guy who is as culturally tapped in as he supposedly is I think he's missing some of the darker elements of the current picture, aptly described by posters above. This is not the same nation as the America in 1975, not by a long shot.
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Bu, bu, bu, bu, but he was an honor(0) student! Little angel, wouldn't hurt a fly!
This is unpossible!
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100626/D9GIOGSO0.html
Teen shot by Border Patrol had smuggling arrests
Email this Story
Jun 26, 1:16 AM (ET)
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL
EL PASO, Texas (AP) - A 15-year-old Mexican boy shot and killed by a U.S. Border Patrol agent was among El Paso's most wanted juvenile immigrant smugglers, according to federal arrest records reviewed by The Associated Press.
The records show Sergio Adrian Hernandez Huereca had been arrested at least four times since 2008 and twice in the same week in February 2009 on suspicion of smuggling illegal immigrants across the U.S.-Mexico border. Hernandez was repeatedly arrested along the U.S. side of the border near downtown El Paso, not far from where he was killed, but was never charged with a crime by federal prosecutors.
A Border Patrol agent shot and killed Hernandez June 7 while trying to arrest illegal immigrants crossing the muddy bed of the Rio Grande. Some witnesses said a group of people on the Mexican side were throwing rocks at the agents. Agents are generally permitted to use lethal force against rock throwers.
The records show that in at least one case Hernandez was to be paid $50 a person for smuggling four people into the U.S.
The records also show that in one case, federal prosecutors declined to charge Hernandez because there were no "extenuating circumstances or endangerment."
Daryl Fields, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Antonio, said he could "neither confirm nor deny that information."
Border Patrol officials have declined to comment on his criminal record, citing an ongoing FBI investigation into whether the shooting was justified under Border Patrol rules and whether the agent, who remains unidentified, violated Hernandez's civil rights.
FBI Special Agent William Weiss also declined to comment Friday.
Mexican authorities have called the killing a murder and some demanded that the agent be extradited to Mexico to face criminal charges. U.S. officials have said that is highly unlikely.
A grainy cell phone video capturing the shooting shows several illegal immigrants trying to scramble back to Mexico after a bicycle-mounted Border Patrol agent arrives in the riverbed. The agent detains one man on the U.S. side of the border and fires two audible shots toward Mexico after putting the man on the ground. The video shows what appears to be a body underneath a nearby railroad bridge spanning the border.
Border Patrol officials have said the agent told the rock throwers to stop and back off, but they persisted and he fired several times.
A federal official familiar with the investigation said Friday there is evidence that Hernandez was throwing rocks at the agent at the time of the shooting. The official, who has been briefed on the case and reviewed some evidence, spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak about the case publicly.
Hernandez's mother, Maria Guadalupe Huereca, said she didn't believe her son had ever been arrested.
She said it couldn't be true because her son had never spent a night away from home and questioned whether police would have repeatedly released suspected smuggler after just a few hours.
"It's a lie," she said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. "And if it were true, it wouldn't give them the right to kill him."
"May God forgive them."
State and federal prosecutors in Mexico declined to comment, saying there would be no discussion of an ongoing investigation.
(0) I guess the concept of honor is different south of the border.
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Mother-son love is a beautiful thing. The Pieta' has memorialized this for all time. Of course the mothers of suicide bombers either believe their sons are good boys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or martyred saints. Nature makes mothers blind for its own reasons.
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I honestly don't know any easy solutions to the Mexico problem (especially with the current political climate) - aside from making our country economically worse off than they are.
It doesn't work when only our people are willing to stop illegals from crossing over. Mexico has to help out, and they will need a significant push (or blackjack across the skull) to get them moving in the right direction.
It would be very entertaining to start taking over Mexican oil rigs to offset the costs their illegals are racking up in our country. If the Mexican government is not penalized for its support of illegals, it won't stop doing it. That could mean ousting the government. That could mean a full-scale, decades-long occupation by several hundred thousand (or a few million) US troops.
For starters, we could close down a bunch of factories and move production of Fords, Chryslers and Jeeps back to the United States. I assume (but don't know) that some of the GM vehicles sold in the U.S. are also built in Mexico.
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But I saw a quote where his mother said he was a nice and loved young man who never was in any trouble ;/
I suspect the miscreants know not to throw rocks at Mexican soldiers and police or else.
Momma said the same thing about the nice young man who attempted armed robbery of a liqour store some years back. I say "attempted" because in Portsmouth VA it is legal for properly credentialled customers of said ABC store to be carrrying a gun. Which one was. He responded correctly to a armed youth bursting in the door of the place. Strange how so many dead nice boys do so many bad things.
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The bottom-line is this: We the People are at war with Mexico. Obama and the American elites may not be, but Mexico does not mean us well and is actively fighting a para-military war on several fronts. The sooner we grasp this and took the decisive plenary action required the better our chances for not winning but surviving. Amnesty is another term for white flag.
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The sooner we grasp this and took the decisive plenary action required the better our chances for not winning but surviving.
You go first. I'll keep the TV on when you're featured in the news with a sword and a "Mission from God." ;)