Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 17, 2006, 05:48:41 PM
One thing I also see is the expectation becoming more prevalent amongst many corporate power structures for employees to put in somewhere in the 50-60 hours range week in and week out.
I am offended by this. I intend, as much as it is within my power, to wage peaceful protest on this development, but flatly refusing to do it, and by encouraging others to "Take Back Your Time".
What do you think about the growing backlash toward monopolizing people's lives in the name of corporate stakeholder profits?
Here are some links that address this issue:
www.timeday.org
http://www.newdream.org/index.php
http://www.wordspy.com/words/joy-to-stuffratio.asp
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/07/productivity_or.html
More fun, less stuff,
Fig
Post by: brimic on February 17, 2006, 07:10:10 PM
My wife and I each work 50+ hours a week. I at least get paid overtime.
We make a lot more money than we have use for, we don't have time to spend it, so we invest it.
Neither of us wants to give up our career, though I encourage her to do so often, I make enough to pay the mortgage and the bills, however, she's reluctant mainly because her health plan at work is far better than mine.
I take pride in the fact that even though I have about 200 hrs of overtime last year, I never volunteered to work any more days than I was scheduled for even though opportunities abound- 5 years ago I worked every single day from Jan2 through the end of June- 8 hr shifts during the weeks, and 12 hr shifts on weekends. The extra $400 or so I would make on an extra 12 hr shift doesn't mean anything to me.
We sat down and figured that at the rate we are saving and with a conservative investment return we will both be able to soundly retire at age 60 if not sooner- its only 25 years away, we'll have our house paid off in 13 years from now. We make a lot of sacrifices in the here and now but we have a longterm outlook on things.
As far as stakeholder profits go, I work for a small company- less that 100 employees- I was the 15th employee hired 7 years ago, I have a direct stake in the company's success. My wife works for a large corporation and is paid her 'stake' in a large yearly bonus check based on the company's performance.
I love my job, my wife hates hers.
My wife rolls her eyes whenever we see a commercial for the latest electronic gadget be it a cellphone, laptop, or PDA with the message that the 'world is your office.' My wife has all of that cutting edge crap issued to her from her company, its like a deal with the devil- she can use it for whatever she wants and the company picks up the tab for the services but if her company needs to contact her at 3:47 AM on sunday because they need to expedite a machine tool along with a service technician to be flown in from Switzerland ASAP, she has no choice but to spend the next 4 hours on the phone calling around the world trying to get it done.
I'd like to give it all up, sell the house, move somewhere nice and do something very untressful on my own time- maybe a fishing guide, while my wife stays home to raise the kids.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 17, 2006, 07:38:43 PM
Quote
More fun, less stuff.
Can I steal that?
Post by: 280plus on February 17, 2006, 08:06:10 PM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 18, 2006, 05:27:39 AM
Quote from: dasmi
Quote
More fun, less stuff.
Can I steal that?FWIW, I actually saw it at one of the sites I linked in the first post. It really sums up much of what I'm after at this point in the game.
At the "Take Back Your Time" website, there's a variation that says "More Time, Less Stuff", but quality free time IMO translates to fun, so I like it better with 'fun' as the contrasting concept.
I also want to say that I feel really funny (odd, not humorous) about espousing an idea that seems like something a worker's union might come up with...
Bourgeousie, rise up against the proletariat! ...or something. Uh, yeah.
Post by: 280plus on February 18, 2006, 05:42:38 AM
Anyhoo, I see it more as putting myself on the same level as the "proletariat' as opposed to rising against them. Why would I want to rise against them? They have money. I deal directly with CEOs and the like all the time. Some are cool, the rest I won't work for. A good HVAC mechanic can be like that.
Post by: Art Eatman on February 18, 2006, 06:18:08 AM
People holler about the federal income tax as though that's a big deal, but it's FICA + state and local taxes that eat your lunch.
Factor in having been raised on TV advertising that tells you that you "deserve" a "Good Life" and there went the money.
The Asians here in the US seem to have the best set of ideas: Family business, everybody works together, and thinks in terms of the next generation. Accumulate wealth over time and plan for old age.
Funny. I never worked much over 40 hours a week on salary, but I probably spent another 20 to 30 hours a week working for ME. "Hustle". Find an old car, cheap. Fix it up. Drive it a while. Sell it for some profit and buy some guns or collector coins. Buy, sell, swap, trade. Penny-ante investing. Do all my own home repairs and fixings. I did this sort of crap for a bunch of years, and now I can write a check in six figures.
Never forget that nobody was ever born an expert anything. Not even me.
And I sure didn't do without beer and deer and trash-talking with purty gals and I did take Ol' Mama dancin' and we ate a fair amount of prime steak. Raced sporty cars, went fishin', flew airplanes. Hey, I got no complaints whatsoever.
But I never let "The System" define my reality. I let the real world give me a hand with that.
Art
"Wish in one hand, poop in the other. See which fills up first."
Post by: garrettwc on February 18, 2006, 06:49:08 AM
Looking at all I have given them and the "death by 1000 cuts" approach they have taken I adopted your sig line as my mantra several months ago.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 18, 2006, 06:50:31 AM
www.bullshitjob.com
Enjoy the Bullshit Title Generator
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 18, 2006, 07:09:35 AM
That's a little bizarre, since on Monday I'm interviewing with a company who was one of the top 50 Forbes' "best companies to work for", and has been on the list every time since '88 or whenever it started... I sensed the whole "work till you can't" mentality on the part of the hiring manager on the phone interview, so who knows...
I'm also dealing with some health issues that's going to make it hard to be the corporate warrior 12 hours a day, so life just keeps getting more and more...uh...'interesting'!
Post by: mtnbkr on February 18, 2006, 07:41:33 AM
My wife is a stay at home mom. We don't have the disposable income of two income families, but we do just fine. We just do without things like new(er) cars, cable TV, etc. We still take vacations and do things together though. We also have more free time than our two income friends.
Chris
Post by: garrettwc on February 18, 2006, 07:44:10 AM
We are on a zero overtime policy. I actually got called on the carpet by my supervisor for working 15 minutes over on a project her boss told me to finish ASAP. The work load has stayed the same, or increased in some areas, but we now have less time to complete the work in, and no new hires temp or otherwise for the next 120 days.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 18, 2006, 07:45:11 AM
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on February 18, 2006, 07:53:13 AM
- NF
Post by: Balog on February 18, 2006, 08:16:22 AM
When I got married, both myself and my wife had steady 40 hour a week jobs. She was a service biller at a car dealership, I was a housepainter. We rented an apartment to move into after the honeymoon; not big or fancy, but not a bug infested wank hole like she had been living in. Given our income and modest budget, we woulda been saving ~25% of our net income. Her position was automated and she was laid off 3 days before the wedding ('cause a wedding isn't enough stress by itself.) Ok, we still had a few grand saved, and my income would keep us afloat for awhile. Except the owner of the company I worked for decided she was only going to bid on enough work to support herself. Sure wish she'd told me. Having been taught that loyalty is one of the highest virtues, I stayed with it for a lot longer than I should've. Long story short, bye bye savings, hello series of menial jobs. I hated it. Here I'd sworn before God and those assembled to care for her, and I'm failing miserably. I was hating life, a lot.
Since then I've dedicated myself to the idea of being independent of the whims of others for my daily bread. Since enlisting, I've only grown more and more convinced that not being beholden to anyone but myself is the only way to go. The only question is how? I may have to start a separate thread. I look at the coupla years I've got left in the Corps as a chance to plan for the future and get trained and ready.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on February 18, 2006, 08:31:43 AM
If you know what you'd like to learn, try to position yourself in a place where you can.
If you don't know, keep trying things until you find out.
Simple stuff, but I don't know a better way. No one can decide for you.
- NF
Post by: 280plus on February 18, 2006, 09:40:57 AM
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 18, 2006, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: Balog
Since then I've dedicated myself to the idea of being independent of the whims of others for my daily bread. Since enlisting, I've only grown more and more convinced that not being beholden to anyone but myself is the only way to go. The only question is how? I may have to start a separate thread. I look at the coupla years I've got left in the Corps as a chance to plan for the future and get trained and ready.
Do it, dude. NOW. We can all benefit from the collective experience, knowledge & wisdom. START THE THREADFig
Post by: Balog on February 18, 2006, 10:03:26 AM
Of course I can also get a low interest small business loan and start my own place up. But from what I've heard that can be more stressful than working for others. Tough decisions.
I'm trying to learn as much as I can while in. EMT certs, commercial driver's license... all can be obtained free. And I intend to. But until I'm out it'll be theory only. I'll take whatever I can get, tho.
Edit: Aye aye Mr. Fig, sir!
Post by: mtnbkr on February 18, 2006, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: dasmi
mtnbkr, you're better off without cable tv. I haven't watched tv since I moved in October, and I don't miss it a bit.
It's been 8 years since I had Cable TV in my home or apt. I don't miss it except for a few things: Food Network, History Channel, and Animal Planet. If I could pay a small fee and get those plus the local channels, I would, but I'm not paying $40+ to get a bunch of crap I don't need.Chris
Post by: Brad Johnson on February 18, 2006, 10:44:43 AM
What do you NEED?
Food
Water
Clothing
Shelter
What do you WANT?
A house with a seperate bedroom for each kid
Nintendo
Two cars
A computers (to post on APS, of course)
A trip to Disney World
Cable TV
Coffee every morning
Prepared meals (dine out or delivered)
A cell phone, and one for each kid
Private school
A stereo
Guns, lots of guns
A shop vac
A propane bbq grill
If you want to cut your expenses in half, get half as much stuff. Buy half as much house or get half as much apartment. That will instantly cut your single largest expense by 50%.
Buy a car that's twice as old. Get a good tool set and a Chilton's manual. Do all the repairs yourself, even the one's that take special tools. You can probably buy the tool for a lot less than what you would pay someone else to to the work. And you end up with a repaired car AND a nice tool.
Budget, and stick to it. Only buy what you absolutely need, and what you can't make yourself. Figure out what your average family medical expenses are for a year and set that money back in a pre-tax MSA.
Take all the 100w lightbulbs out and replace them with 60's or 45's.
Prepare your own foodstuffs with basic commodities that you can buy in bulk and store - rice, beans, etc. Buy flour in bulk, parcel it out in to gallon freezer bags. It will keep almost indefinitely. Get a good set of cookware and a Betty Crocker book. Use it. A lot. I can show you how to live on a $30 a month per person food budget and still eat nutritiously. It's not much fun but it IS possible.
And don't whine about "the man" monopolozing everything. It ony hits you if you let it. And you let it by lifestyle choices and by living to a point where you HAVE to rely on corporate America. If you don't like it, then scale back to the point where you don't have to rely on it. Prioritize. And learn to say "No" more often.
And finally... if you don't like "the man" monopolizing their employee base in search of shareholder wealth, THEN DON'T WORK THERE FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!! Get another job. Any job. Or stay where you are and quit grousing about it. And don't whine about not being able to get the same pay somewhere else. You either stay where you are and put up with it for money, or go somewhere else and enjoy it for less money. After all, it is YOUR CHOICE. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to work somewhere.
Sorry this was so blunt, but it needed to be. Scaling back is only as hard as you choose for it to be. And griping about a job being a pain in the butt while staying on for the pay is just stupid. Either shut up, work, and collect your paycheck, or get another job that you like and change your lifestyle to fit the pay.
Coporations only do what their employees, customers, and stakeholders allow them to do. If people choose the lifestyle or the position then the corporation taking every opportunity to maximize the positive return from that position is just good business sense. You can only take advantage of someone who has no alternative. Unless you are being held at gunpoint, there is always an alternative. Crying "foul" that the corps are being mean just because someone wants the same compensation for less work or less responsibility is silly. And getting mad at the 'big 'ol mean corporations' for making money is sillier. That's what they exist for!
Brad
Post by: garyk/nm on February 18, 2006, 01:06:17 PM
I guess this is my way of agreeing with the OP's concept.
Fig, I wonder if the "we work 60 hours a week" corp attitude is a backdoor way of keeping us older folks away?
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 18, 2006, 02:25:49 PM
Quote from: garyk/nm
Fig, I wonder if the "we work 60 hours a week" corp attitude is a backdoor way of keeping us older folks away?
I never thought of that, but if they *do* keep us out, they wind up paying a kid less money. 'Course, in many cases, you get what you pay for. Interesting thought, though Gary!
Post by: The Rabbi on February 18, 2006, 02:49:12 PM
People have choices. We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason. And it isn't because people knock off work at 4. Look at France and Germany. I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 18, 2006, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Art Eatman
There is a much lower percentage of self-employed, now, compared to the early years of the U.S. Seems like "The System" is geared toward hired-hands, whether salaried or hourly.
People holler about the federal income tax as though that's a big deal, but it's FICA + state and local taxes that eat your lunch.
Factor in having been raised on TV advertising that tells you that you "deserve" a "Good Life" and there went the money.
The Asians here in the US seem to have the best set of ideas: Family business, everybody works together, and thinks in terms of the next generation. Accumulate wealth over time and plan for old age.
Funny. I never worked much over 40 hours a week on salary, but I probably spent another 20 to 30 hours a week working for ME. "Hustle". Find an old car, cheap. Fix it up. Drive it a while. Sell it for some profit and buy some guns or collector coins. Buy, sell, swap, trade. Penny-ante investing. Do all my own home repairs and fixings. I did this sort of crap for a bunch of years, and now I can write a check in six figures.
Never forget that nobody was ever born an expert anything. Not even me.
And I sure didn't do without beer and deer and trash-talking with purty gals and I did take Ol' Mama dancin' and we ate a fair amount of prime steak. Raced sporty cars, went fishin', flew airplanes. Hey, I got no complaints whatsoever.
But I never let "The System" define my reality. I let the real world give me a hand with that.
Art
"Wish in one hand, poop in the other. See which fills up first."
I actually copied this into a Word file and saved it. There is so much solid advice there that I had to read it three times. Thanks Art.
People holler about the federal income tax as though that's a big deal, but it's FICA + state and local taxes that eat your lunch.
Factor in having been raised on TV advertising that tells you that you "deserve" a "Good Life" and there went the money.
The Asians here in the US seem to have the best set of ideas: Family business, everybody works together, and thinks in terms of the next generation. Accumulate wealth over time and plan for old age.
Funny. I never worked much over 40 hours a week on salary, but I probably spent another 20 to 30 hours a week working for ME. "Hustle". Find an old car, cheap. Fix it up. Drive it a while. Sell it for some profit and buy some guns or collector coins. Buy, sell, swap, trade. Penny-ante investing. Do all my own home repairs and fixings. I did this sort of crap for a bunch of years, and now I can write a check in six figures.
Never forget that nobody was ever born an expert anything. Not even me.
And I sure didn't do without beer and deer and trash-talking with purty gals and I did take Ol' Mama dancin' and we ate a fair amount of prime steak. Raced sporty cars, went fishin', flew airplanes. Hey, I got no complaints whatsoever.
But I never let "The System" define my reality. I let the real world give me a hand with that.
Art
"Wish in one hand, poop in the other. See which fills up first."
Post by: jeff-10 on February 18, 2006, 08:51:50 PM
Downside is that you don't get the high bonuses, stock options and the potential to make over 200k in the federal goverment. I couldn't work the 10 hour days, 6 days a week anymore. I was getting serious migraines and doing nothing but working and sleeping for almost 2 years. Keep in mind I was 30 when I changed to the federal goverment, far too young to burn out considering I will have to work into my 60s. Anyways that + living in a state with a low tax burden has really improved my life. The grow or die mentality that most corporations now have make it almost unberable to work for them.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on February 19, 2006, 07:51:46 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Whine.
People have choices. We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason. And it isn't because people knock off work at 4. Look at France and Germany. I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
What are you doing on the gunnie boards? Quit slacking and get back to work. Management expects five supercommentaries by close of business next Friday or we'll outsource your job to Ethiopia. People have choices. We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason. And it isn't because people knock off work at 4. Look at France and Germany. I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
- NF
Post by: InfidelSerf on February 19, 2006, 08:48:19 AM
Several corporations are now banning smoking all together, even at home.
I don't have a problem with a company making it policy not to hire smokers.. but those that are already employed should be grandfathered in. Or at the very least since this move is typically a medical insurance cost factor. Make smokers pay higher premiums or opt out of company provided insurance. No matter what its a slippery slope. What's next no skydiving, motorcycle riding, or fast food eating?
Many of us have already experienced similar views towards firearms.
Just another reason I work for myself.
Post by: The Rabbi on February 19, 2006, 09:04:28 AM
Quote from: Nathaniel Firethorn
Quote from: The Rabbi
Whine.
People have choices. We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason. And it isn't because people knock off work at 4. Look at France and Germany. I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
What are you doing on the gunnie boards? Quit slacking and get back to work. Management expects five supercommentaries by close of business next Friday or we'll outsource your job to Ethiopia. People have choices. We have the most dynamic succesful economy in the world for a reason. And it isn't because people knock off work at 4. Look at France and Germany. I don't think anyone wants to emulate that.
- NF
.
Post by: The Rabbi on February 19, 2006, 09:07:19 AM
Quote from: veloce851
another aspect to look at is the intrusion into your personal life that is becoming more prevalent.
Several corporations are now banning smoking all together, even at home.
I don't have a problem with a company making it policy not to hire smokers.. but those that are already employed should be grandfathered in. Or at the very least since this move is typically a medical insurance cost factor. Make smokers pay higher premiums or opt out of company provided insurance. No matter what its a slippery slope. What's next no skydiving, motorcycle riding, or fast food eating?
Many of us have already experienced similar views towards firearms.
Just another reason I work for myself.
My feeling is companies should be free to set whatever standards they want. If they want to hire only marathon running athletes then so be it. But they will be doing themselves out of some good employees probably.Several corporations are now banning smoking all together, even at home.
I don't have a problem with a company making it policy not to hire smokers.. but those that are already employed should be grandfathered in. Or at the very least since this move is typically a medical insurance cost factor. Make smokers pay higher premiums or opt out of company provided insurance. No matter what its a slippery slope. What's next no skydiving, motorcycle riding, or fast food eating?
Many of us have already experienced similar views towards firearms.
Just another reason I work for myself.
You are right that health insurance costs play a part in it. I don't see why someone can be a cigarette-smoking overweight slob and expect the company to pick up his medical bills. More individual responsibility will eventually do away with the medical insurance crisis.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on February 19, 2006, 09:34:49 AM
I would almost be ready to make the jump, were it not for that.
SWMBO and I both have health issues which require ongoing prescription drugs, and everything I find is either a "discount card" that does almost NOTHING, or prohibitively expensive. Oh, that and the 3 kids we need to cover as well...
If that's asking sensitive info, feel free to email me fignozzle at yahoo dot com.
Post by: ...has left the building. on February 19, 2006, 10:25:57 AM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
...but how do you guys cover the costs of med insurance on your own?
I would almost be ready to make the jump, were it not for that.
I don't think there is any way around it.
I would almost be ready to make the jump, were it not for that.
Post by: 280plus on February 19, 2006, 10:34:50 AM
Quote
but how do you guys cover the costs of med insurance on your own?
I would almost be ready to make the jump, were it not for that.
It's not easy at first. That's one of my my biggest expenses. I just bite the bullet and do it. Mine is ~ $300 a month for something I hope to never use. $2500 deductible too. It's more of a stop gap in case I get seriously injured or ill.
I would almost be ready to make the jump, were it not for that.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on February 19, 2006, 11:14:16 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Being self-employed means never having to clock in .
Hmmm... the org chart lists you as a solid-line report to Mr. Harry Thunderer and a dotted line to Mr. Cosmo Muffin. .
- NF
Post by: InfidelSerf on February 19, 2006, 11:25:51 AM
If something major happens... then I get to make payments the rest of my life for the service of those who saved me.(and I'll be thankful to dedicate my life to paying them off)
But I do have a right to refuse medical care. And of course I'll get flamed for this view.
But I would rather wither and die than expect others to pay for my healthcare.
I know I'll probably be lumped with the crazy christian scientists too (or whatever they call themselves.. those that believe God will take care of any sickness etc.) But I honestly feel like its my right to take my life into my own hands and risk death, even if the technology exists to fix me.
If your going to call me a nut.. at least make it a pistachio [homerdrewl]Mmmm pistachios[/homerdrewl]
Now when and if I ever have kids, I'll get it. At that point it's not for me.. but for them.
JMHO
Post by: The Rabbi on February 19, 2006, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: Nathaniel Firethorn
Quote from: The Rabbi
Being self-employed means never having to clock in .
Hmmm... the org chart lists you as a solid-line report to Mr. Harry Thunderer and a dotted line to Mr. Cosmo Muffin. .- NF
Post by: The Rabbi on February 19, 2006, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: veloce851
Call me crazy but I don't have health insurance.. and frankly don't want it.
If something major happens... then I get to make payments the rest of my life for the service of those who saved me.(and I'll be thankful to dedicate my life to paying them off)
Yeah, that's pretty nuts.If something major happens... then I get to make payments the rest of my life for the service of those who saved me.(and I'll be thankful to dedicate my life to paying them off)
I pay for my own health insurance and since we are seldom sick we have an enormous deductible. I doubt we've ever reached the deductible in any year. But one of the benefits of having health insurance is that providers must bill at the agreed upon rate, even if the insurance company won't cover it. So doctor visits that get billed at about $100 get crammed down to about $57. Ditto with drugs. We pay for all of them, but at the lower rate negotiated by the Blue guys. It almost pays for itself.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 19, 2006, 01:05:26 PM
It used to be, if you could represent in an interview that you could do the job, you got the job, until you couldn't do the job anymore. Now you need a piece of paper (often mandated by legislation) saying you can do the job so the company doesn't get sued if you do the job wrong. And of course, since you are paper qualified, it's harder to get rid of you if you actually can't do the job, because, hey, you're qualified.
So we have requirements for physical trades that a person must have an overpriced rubber stamp BA, even in a non-related field, just to apply for the job. I used to work with a guy for the State who had the required BS, in microbiology, to allow him to be a computer supervisor. A degree for the sake of a degree.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on February 19, 2006, 01:09:34 PM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Yup, you're right. I ate a muffin this morning....
Sometimes you eat the muffin. And sometimes the muffin eats you.- NF