Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: GigaBuist on August 20, 2010, 10:12:38 AM
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Anybody here have some solid recommendations on getting some quality kitchen knives? I see that Cold Steel makes a set but I don't know if they're of the same quality that their other knives are.
Looking to spend about $300-ish on a total set.
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I have an old set of Gerber Balance Plus. Okay kives. I inherited a set of Henckels 4-start, a very good set. I currently use a set of Cutco my wife bought from a door-to-door salesman. Start out GREAT, then become fair/okay with use. I can send the Cutco back to be sharpened, but I just haven't.
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Dad gave me a set of Henckels for Christmas a couple of years ago - don't remember the name of the set off hand, but the kitchen knives - large carving and bread knives, med. carving knife, small carving and paring knives, plus sharpening steel - came with black handles and were set in a wooden butcher's block (I think that's what it's called), and the steak knives (six one-piece milled steel knives, ~4" serrated blades) have their own separate, smaller block. I love 'em.
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Another vote for J.A. Henckles, Great stuff.
How much do you want to spend?
My set cost me about $400, and they're awesome. I'v also seen some sets in Target in the $80 range that looked OK.
This collection (http://www.zwillingonline.com/cutlery-j-a--henckels-international--classic.html) will set you up well for years to come.
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We also have a Henckels knife. It was a prop from a photo shoot, and is a 6" chef's knife. Cost was over $30 for one knife, which is why we only have one. ;)
Great knife. Good balance, and stays extremely sharp.
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In a former life, I sold housewares and grew up around a bunch of professional chefs so I was in kitchens a lot.
Henckels are good. Get the carbon steel blades with straight edges (Classic was the line I recommended back then- they may have introduced another line with the same blades). Their cheaper serrated stuff lasts well, but in the long run, their top of the line stuff lasts longer and holds up better. If you treat them right, your kids and grandkids will have them.
Wusthof is comparable to Henckels. Most of what I said above applies to them as well.
I have some knives that were sold by Victorinox under the name of RH Forschner Co. Another carbon steel blade with a straight edge. They have stood up to more than 35 years of use. They are great knives.
Interestingly enough, the best bread knife I found is marketed by Betty Crocker. It's made by Diamond Edge Cutlery. I've had it for about 20 years now. We only use it on bread and it still cuts like new. That one is a serrated stainless steel blade.
If you plan on treating them extremely well, look at some of the better ceramic blade knifes. Those things are awesome... and very sharp. They'll cut through the back of your finger and sever a tendon with no problem at all. You won't even know you did it, until the customer points out you are bleeding all over the floor. :lol:
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How much do you want to spend?
I figure about $300. They're not for me, they're for my mom. We were over at her house the other weekend and my wife noticed that her knives all sucked pretty bad. She probably got them 20 years ago I bet.
Figured I should get her a good set. And since I hang around a bunch of gun and knife nuts I could probably get some good advise on what's actually good quality.
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I have a set of Henckels 4 Star that I love. America's Test Kitchen recommends a lot of Forschner models as 209 suggests, which are a balance between quality and price.
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My wife grew up with her mom using Henkels. It's all we've used since we got married. I got a set for my sister when she bought her house. She is thrilled with them. Your mom will never use any other knives after she gets used to a set of Henkels.
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I have a set of Pampered Chef knives and love 'em.
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Henckels or Spyderco.
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http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11544405&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|89|56625&N=4017663&Mo=5&No=0&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=54920&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=
I have heard several people speak highly of this set.
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If you go with Henckels, go check out the professional ones at the "Butler Pantry" in Sugatuck
A MUCH better item than the Henckles items sold at Target, etal.
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Yes, Henckels has a few lines. They have their excellent high quality lines, and they have some cheaper Chinese (or somewhere similar) made knives that just happen to bear their name.
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I have collection of Chicago Cutlery that I put together in pieces. Mine are the forged carbon steel ones and they hold an edge forever. I can bone out two deer just using the boning knife and not have to sharpen the knife during the process.
This is close to what I have (http://www.chicagocutlery.com/index.asp?pageId=1&catId=28&bid=77&sku=1068062)
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If you act fast, there's a 7-piece set of Shun knives in a bamboo block, for $350 on woot.com.
I have several Shun knives, and I love them to death; the 9" Santoku and the Chef's knife are my two go-to knives.
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Definitely be careful which line you buy. I have a couple of Wusthof knives (the starter set with a chef's knife and a paring knife. It can be had for around $100) that I love. They also sell a line called "Wusthof International" that are rather enticing when you see the ad because they're so cheap, but they're just that... Stamped knives, not the nice forged ones.
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if looks don't matter there are these (http://www.coutelleriedupetitchene.ch/asp/detail.asp?lan=EN&code=5.2063.20&shop=PC). if you really want something nice, lurk here (http://knifenetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=22). ;)
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+1 on Chicago Cutlery
I remember a couple of CC knives in the house I lived in while at college.
The knives were older than anyone in the place.
They were well balanced and after meeting the stone, DID hold a nice edge
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The best stamped knives are R.H. Forschner (sometimes branded Victorinox), but Russell-Dexter "Sanisafe" and that Brazilian knife company (Tramontina?) are almost as good and are real bargains. If you want forged knives, look for F. Dick.
Best place to buy is open stock at a local butcher's supply store or restaurant supply store. Sam's Club sells the Tramontina(?) knives under their own brand "Bakers and Chefs" now for ridiculously low prices. I bought a pair of their Santoku knives a couple of years ago and kept one for myself and gave the other to my daughter. Mine is still scary sharp (not as sharp as when it was new) even though it gets used a lot; I just steel it occasionally to dress the edge.
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i've got double stacked mechanics tool box filled with knives and kitchen toys. all of the above in it and they are some good knives. this is the best i've ever used
http://www.fdick-cutlery.com/
order of magnitude better at taking and holding edge
http://www.125west.com/p-3484-fdick-premier-plus-wales-set.aspx find a pawn shop near a culinary school i got mine for 125 school in baltimore issues em to all students
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Building a set is the way to go.
Old Hickory. 1095 steel.
Shun (Onion series). VG-10 steel.
Fallkniven (K series). VG-10 steel.
Boker (Gorm series). 440C steel.
Throw in an easy to use sharpener.
I recommend Old Hickory for hard use blades. You might have to put a proper grind/edge on them when you get them, but that sets you up for life. In my opinion, for the price, a little elbow grease is a no big deal.
One or two high performance blades from Shun, Fallkniven, or Boker are good investments. Look for great all around utility characteristics.
Just my opinion. I've found that building your own set always works best.
P.S. Also, if your experience here mirrors mine, your mum will not care as much as you do. My mum and my grandmum don't even like sharp knives. They prefer cheap, stainless, serrated blades that I generally think are junkers. When I explained that sharp knives are safer to use, they disagreed and/or ignored me! ha ha So watch out for that!
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I use Wusthof classics. Any of the top tier forged knives work well, though. It's just a matter of finding the ones that fit your hand well.
If they're for yer mum, it's probably best to take her to the store and let her try out a bunch in her own hands.
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Henckles is good stuff. I personally have a set of K Sabatier knives that are nice. Shun and various others make Japanese steel/style knives that are the in thing right now. Very nice stuff.
First though, give a ride to a local restaurant supply shop and see what they have in stock. Like so many things, you will get good quality stuff at "industry" rates. They will often have basic kitchen knives, the type with molded handles made to be used and abused by kitchen staff. Generally reasonable quality as a spare set of knives. But they will also normally have a few higher end stuff at good prices. My local supply shops carry great knives far below "kitchen store" prices. Little more then internet but well worth it to see how they feel in the hand first and support a local business.
Save money by sticking to what you will need and use most and that will work as multi tasking. Rather then a 6 8 and 12 inch chefs knife for example, get an 8 or a 10. For most people, it's a good size for everything. Get yourself a good boning knife, a good slicing/carving knife, a good bread knife, and a good paring knife. With those five you can do damn near every kitchen task the home cook will do.
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Henckles is good stuff. I personally have a set of K Sabatier knives that are nice. Shun and various others make Japanese steel/style knives that are the in thing right now. Very nice stuff.
First though, give a ride to a local restaurant supply shop and see what they have in stock. Like so many things, you will get good quality stuff at "industry" rates. They will often have basic kitchen knives, the type with molded handles made to be used and abused by kitchen staff. Generally reasonable quality as a spare set of knives. But they will also normally have a few higher end stuff at good prices. My local supply shops carry great knives far below "kitchen store" prices. Little more then internet but well worth it to see how they feel in the hand first and support a local business.
Save money by sticking to what you will need and use most and that will work as multi tasking. Rather then a 6 8 and 12 inch chefs knife for example, get an 8 or a 10. For most people, it's a good size for everything. Get yourself a good boning knife, a good slicing/carving knife, a good bread knife, and a good paring knife. With those five you can do damn near every kitchen task the home cook will do.
QFT you can do 99.9 percent of what a hotel chef does
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QFT you can do 99.9 percent of what a hotel chef does
Exactly. I wonder to myself when people buy huge sets of knives where they will never use half of the darn things.
The average cook doesn't need multiple chef's knives. Are there things that a six ten and 12 in blade can do easier then the others? Sure, absolutely, that's why they make them all. But for the vast majority of jobs the old stand by 8 or 10 inch chef's knife will do them very well or at least good enough to still be easy. Smaller and you loose functionality and larger it get's clunky in a smaller area or for doing less then a lot of slicing and dicing. And I actually find it easier to fillet most fish with a 6in boning knife then a fillet knife.
And specialty knives are worthless, IMO. Tomato and grapefruit knives? That's what the serrated bread knife is for.
I'd rather pay twice as much for a good knife that will last a life time then have twice as many cheap knives that will see little or no use.
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We bought a set of Wustof Trident "Grand Prix" knives a couple of year ago and are quite pleased - good steel, good balance, and a comfortable handle. (Don't overlook the last two items!)
Henckels has made some very good knives, but a couple of years ago they were pushing sintered steel - their ad men tried to take what should be a downcheck and turn it into a virtue.
At the time, we found the best prices at Northwestern Cutlery (http://www.nwcutlery.com) a store in the Chicago area - they were at least a third less than the sale prices at the local Williams-Sonoma store, with free delivery and no sales tax. =D (This was several years ago - don't know if they're the best place to buy today.)
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williams and sonoma.... ah i bet they miss me. the one at mazza gallery had a fit when security tried to throw me out over the mall dress code. if you really wanna see high dollar food go to sutton place gourmet where the sign next to the door says "we will gladly help you arrange financing for your food purchase" i kid you not
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+1 on Chicago Cutlery
I remember a couple of CC knives in the house I lived in while at college.
The knives were older than anyone in the place.
They were well balanced and after meeting the stone, DID hold a nice edge
Chicago Cutlery isn't what it used to be. The set my parents have had for 20 some years is like you describe. The set my they bought me a few years ago is cheap Chinese crap. The blades weren't even straight, and they lose an edge cutting warm butter.
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Another vote for Henkels or Wusthoff. I have a set of Wusthoff Classic. Great balance, stay sharp, and fit the hand very well.
Brad
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Although it lacks a certain cachet, I am fond of my Dexter Russell SaniSafe knives. I use the 10" chef, 8" santoku, 6" boning and 3" paring most often. I can toss them in the dishwasher and resharpen them to a nice edge.
These are the same knives you see in most restaurants and hotels.
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Chicago Cutlery isn't what it used to be. The set my parents have had for 20 some years is like you describe. The set my they bought me a few years ago is cheap Chinese crap. The blades weren't even straight, and they lose an edge cutting warm butter.
Stamped or Forged? My last forged CC knife was bought in 2006 and it was made in the us.
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I would go with the recommendation that you buy the knives ala carte', there is no need for a bunch of pretty (and costly) knives that will just sit there. I do 99% of my kitchen work with a 8" chefs, a boning knife and a 4 inch paring knife. They are all Henckles.
I have other knives for certain things but they usually just sit in the drawer,
When you get to looking at prices, go to cutleryandmore.com and overstock. com to check prices.
bob
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A.G. Russell
http://www.agrussell.com/ag-russell-set-of-eight-kitchen-knives/p/AGKKhhhSET8/ (http://www.agrussell.com/ag-russell-set-of-eight-kitchen-knives/p/AGKKhhhSET8/)
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SWMBO absolutely swears by her Henckels. Would not use anything else. And, she won't let me touch them with a sharpening steel.
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And, she won't let me touch them with a sharpening steel.
Why not?
I do so almost every time I use my knives, multiple times during long sessions.
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Why not?
I do so almost every time I use my knives, multiple times during long sessions.
I put mine to stone if the get dull in anyway.
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I put mine to stone if the get dull in anyway.
My knives get sharpened about once or twice a year, depending on the knife and how much it is used.
A steel doesn't sharpen, it only hones and moves the edge back in line renewing the performance of the edge. If the knives never see steel and instead are sharpened every time they loose a little performance it doesn't do anything but speed up how fast the blade wears.
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I just have one tip- don't buy Cutco. Or "Forever Sharp"
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Currently, I'm using a perfect balance Finnish puukko for all my kitchen cutting needs. Shockingly cheap (sub-$50), available in razor sharp stainless, and available in a variety of blade lengths. Just throwing that out there, since I formerly swore by Henkels as well.... ;)
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Ginsu.
It slices, it dices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abLB7aTmnE4
But wait, there's more....
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Another recommendation to just building a set.
A solid 8-10" chef knife, a good pairing, a fillet knife, and a bread knife (bread knives make some of the best tomato slicers)
I'll second the classic line from JAHenckles then get you a block like say this... or just dedicate a top drawer as the knife drawer.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geekologie.com%2F2007%2F09%2F21%2Fknife-holder.jpg&hash=31904e9a650cbcc5b9056267c97fa4fdf7395023)
I bought all mine at various times at T.J.Maxx Generally I spent about $10-$20/knife for knives that sold retail for two to three times that.
Oh and a care note.. what ever you do kill anyone that attempts to use a scrub pad on them. Avoid the dishwasher.
They should always be cleaned by hand in hot mildly soapy water. That is if you want them to last. I have cheap knives that are for SWMBO to use. That is when she's not using a steak knife to do all her chopping. I guess that's why I'm the primary cook in the house.
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Chicago Cutlery isn't what it used to be. The set my parents have had for 20 some years is like you describe. The set my they bought me a few years ago is cheap Chinese crap. The blades weren't even straight, and they lose an edge cutting warm butter.
We had a set of Kansas City Cutlery - we got it free when we opened an account at a new bank. (Remember getting something other than the shaft from a bank?)
These things were unquestionably the worst pieces of junk with the worst steel it's ever been my displeasure to work with - I couldn't even get an edge on those wretched things with a Lansky sharpener. (Wustof knives easily can be made "shaving sharp" without going to an impractically shallow angle.)
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I have some knives that were sold by Victorinox under the name of RH Forschner Co. Another carbon steel blade with a straight edge. They have stood up to more than 35 years of use. They are great knives.
Another vote for Forschner/Victorinox. Amazon sells this brand in many combinations of knives and accessories. Here's a seven-piece (four knife) set for $112.12:
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-7-Piece-Knife-Set-Block/dp/B0025VKCCS/ref=pd_sbs_k_3 (http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-7-Piece-Knife-Set-Block/dp/B0025VKCCS/ref=pd_sbs_k_3)
If you have any doubts about their quality, check the reviews of their 8-inch chef's knife:
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-47520-Fibrox-8-Inch-Chefs/dp/B000638D32/ref=pd_sim_k_5 (http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-47520-Fibrox-8-Inch-Chefs/dp/B000638D32/ref=pd_sim_k_5)
There may be better brands out there (Shun, Global, Henckel's), but these are nearly as good (according to reviews from chef and cooking sites I read on the web) and for a whole lot less money. These are stamped instead of forged so they don't look as imposing, but they work just fine. I also like the fibrox handles.
ymmv
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this link hiding in cooking dir. :facepalm:
http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?6-Fred-s-Cutlery-Forum&s=d8e3d5c42d795f5b16dde2239d78159a (http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?6-Fred-s-Cutlery-Forum&s=d8e3d5c42d795f5b16dde2239d78159a)
and i can't find it, but i had a link to a guy in Japan selling some very nice knives into the US. :facepalm:
edit: found him! (http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/) =D
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Get a nice diamond "steel" to go with- then you can shapen her knives every time you are over =D
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If you're thinking about going for a quality over quantity approach, there are some really nice Japanese styled selections on the market now. I bought my parents a high quality Japanese damascus chef knife a couple years ago, can't remember the specific brand name but it is extremely sharp and has worked out great, in addition to being a beautifully made knife. Al Mar is making some really nice similarly styled knives: http://www.almarknives.com/kitchen_knives.php
Way expensive, but I think New Graham has some for significantly less than MSRP.
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Avoid the dishwasher.
Could someone explain to me why the dishwasher is supposed to be so bad for knives? I understand the damage to wood-handled knives, but my all-steel knives haven't had any problems from the dishwasher...and I've washed my pocketknives in it a time or two...
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Dishwasher detergents contain extremely harsh chemicals and abrasives (think fine sand flung at high velocity) that can destroy the fine edge on a sharp knife.
The heat can also loose rivets or swell wood or other natural product grip panels. Finally, there's a lot of vibration in a dishwasher, which could result in the knife's sharp edge chattering against something like a glass that could essentially ruin it.
My current set of knives is a set of "Sabatier" that have 'made in China" on the stamped steel blades. Got them as a filler at Amazon for something like $9.99. Chef's knife, two utility knives, a slicer, 8 steak knives, a paring knife, a set of shears, a steel, and a block.
Think they would be horrible, right?
Shockingly, they're a VERY good set of knives.
Once sharpened the blades are tough enough not to have the edge roll over from cutting a roll, but not so hard that they're a pain to sharpen.
I steel them every time before I use them and then again after washing them before putting them back in the block. The paring knife has been sharpened once in the 3 years I've owned the set. I just keep steeling it and it keeps returning to an edge that is more than sharp enough to shave the hair off the back of my arm.
The only thing that really stinks about the set is the steel. It's an abomination, but I have a cir. 1920s butcher's steel, 14" long, that is a more than adequate replacement.
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Funny how that works out, sometimes. The current knife I use for 90% of cutting tasks is a $13 puukko from WalMart's fishing section. :D
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What Irwin said about the dishwasher. Heat and harsh chems.
I also forgot to add that having a steel is important.. and your good knives should be straightened often.
I say straightened because that's essentially what a steel does. Think of the edge of your knife after use like your hands with interlocked fingers...(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sansmart.co.nz%2Fimages%2Fhands5.gif&hash=76244609431e40ca76f0efb06dd9232db997b57d)
Running it over a steel smooths the edge back as if you moved your fingers back into a prayer hold...(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calvarysatx.com%2Fprayer%2Fpraying%2520hands.jpg&hash=c7947a4daaf081dd4083c82680af603774360b2b)
Actual sharpening on a stone should only be done if you truly know what your doing, or taken to a pro.
That is assuming you want to keep a nice edge on your knives for along time.
The other alternative considering the price of very decent knives these days is to just buy a new one every year or two, and hand me down the old knife of change it's duty or location in your household. I have some nice old wustoff knives that pull duty in my garage now, when I replaced them with newer ones.
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InfidelSerf,
You're demonstrating using the steel to correct the blade edge serrating. Is that more the main reason to use a steel than to correct blade edge rolling ? Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter because I think one would use the steel in the same way for either remedy, but I'm curious as a fledgling knife guy.
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I've had a set of Henkels 5 star for about 10 years that I love to use. They get sharpened twice a year, and show no signs of wear whatsoever.
However, on our most recent move I bought a couple of the Victorinox knives on Amazon while we waited for our kitchen stuff to arrive from Korea. I got an 8" Chef and a 7" santoku. I really love the way they handle, and it is easy to keep a blade on them. These two knives are in inexpensive and effective way to cover the vast majority of your kitchen cutting tasks. I still use them a lot. Sometimes I prefer the lighter weight if I am doing a lot of chopping.
I also like this inexpensive paring knife set from Henkels. I reach for them a lot:
http://www.amazon.com/Henckels-Twin-Colored-Paring-Knives/dp/B00005K8PF/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1282500429&sr=8-3