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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on August 21, 2010, 06:08:58 PM

Title: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MillCreek on August 21, 2010, 06:08:58 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38799106/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/


My goodness.  Using the ancient precept of an eye for an eye, a Saudi judge is asking hospitals to intentionally damage the spinal cord of a criminal who caused paralysis in his victim.  I wonder if any healthcare facility in the Kingdom will perform the surgery. 
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on August 21, 2010, 06:13:29 PM
how evil am i for not being totally against this?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: PTK on August 21, 2010, 06:15:00 PM
how evil am i for not being totally against this?

Extremely, as if you needed an answer. ;)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: vaskidmark on August 21, 2010, 06:20:04 PM
Extremely, as if you needed an answer. ;)

Why?

Their culture is different.  They have historically indicated they have no interest in adapting to/adopting our cultural norms or values.

Or would you also consider yourself evil for even wanting to have them adopt our culture/values - let alone imposing those on the Saud?

stay safe.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: RevDisk on August 21, 2010, 06:20:51 PM
how evil am i for not being totally against this?

I dunno.  I think we're supposed to be shocked and offended for some reason.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: BridgeRunner on August 21, 2010, 06:24:29 PM
I dunno.  I think we're supposed to be shocked and offended for some reason.

I think it would be a shocking waste of money, personally. 

I'm not on board with the kind of punishment generally, but I'm slightly more concerned about other nifty things the Saudis do to people who aren't criminals.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: PTK on August 21, 2010, 06:26:40 PM
vaskidmark, you missed my sarcasm. RevDisk caught it. :)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 21, 2010, 07:16:12 PM
I dunno.  I think we're supposed to be shocked and offended for some reason.


Well, if RevDisk is against it, I'm for it. 
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: seeker_two on August 21, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
Why not use a 20lb sledgehammer? Cheap, quick, simple enough that a Shariah lawman can figure it out...
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Firethorn on August 21, 2010, 08:12:58 PM
Why not use a 20lb sledgehammer? Cheap, quick, simple enough that a Shariah lawman can figure it out...

Bigger chance of doing more damage than the court decides is appropriate...

They are not necessarily unsophisticated, it's just on a different path than our own.

My reactions to the article -

1.  It mentions a 'fight', personally I tend to associate that with mutual combat, and in mutual combat I think that you should suffer what you suffer.
2.  The victim is requesting this punishment, and as I understand their justice system, it places a LOT of weight on what the victim asks for.

If the man they're proposing doing this to was the attacker and the other man only defending himself, then I can understand.  If it was a 'mutual' thing, then not so much.  I still favor making the intact man work for supporting the crippled one, but who knows.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Nitrogen on August 21, 2010, 08:25:17 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38799106/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/


My goodness.  Using the ancient precept of an eye for an eye, a Saudi judge is asking hospitals to intentionally damage the spinal cord of a criminal who caused paralysis in his victim.  I wonder if any healthcare facility in the Kingdom will perform the surgery. 


I am not surprised.  Saudis are animals.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Tallpine on August 21, 2010, 08:29:39 PM
Why not use a 20lb sledgehammer? Cheap, quick, simple enough that a Shariah lawman can figure it out...

Rope
Gravity
Sudden stop

That's how we used to do it  ;)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on August 21, 2010, 09:48:42 PM
I am not surprised.  Saudis are animals.

Bit of a broad brush there don't you think?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Nitrogen on August 21, 2010, 10:37:06 PM
Bit of a broad brush there don't you think?

It's a generalization, yes  I'm sure like anywhere else, there are people that don't fit it.  I stand by it, though.

I'm not one of these people that feels I have to accept everyone else's culture.  I think their culture is disgusting.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MechAg94 on August 21, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Rope
Gravity
Sudden stop

That's how we used to do it  ;)
Yeah, at some point, just stop messing around and do it. 
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: KD5NRH on August 21, 2010, 10:51:30 PM
If his victim didn't get the benefit of a carefully controlled surgical procedure, why can't they save some money and just use a hammer on him?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on August 22, 2010, 12:44:45 AM
If his victim didn't get the benefit of a carefully controlled surgical procedure, why can't they save some money and just use a hammer on him?

Because in society we are supposed to be better than the criminals.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: taurusowner on August 22, 2010, 12:47:35 AM
Because in society we are supposed to be better than the criminals.

And we get to decide what "better" is.  Not doing this to an innocent person is being better than the criminal.  Doing it to a guilty person is justice.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Nitrogen on August 22, 2010, 12:55:28 AM
And we get to decide what "better" is.  Not doing this to an innocent person is being better than the criminal.  Doing it to a guilty person is justice.

How good do you think their investigative system is? 
You think it's anywhere approaching as good as ours, that values people's rights at all?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: taurusowner on August 22, 2010, 01:05:12 AM
I'm speaking generally.  The idea that we aren't supposed to do anything bad to criminals because it somehow makes us like them is hogwash.  I've never bought that idea about the death penalty either.  The old argument that if we kill someone, we're no better than a murderer.  It's BS.  Of course we're better.  Their victims were innocent, the murderer is not.  That makes us better period.

Having law and principles is one of the best accomplishments in human history.  But if it becomes a suicide pact, it's gone too far.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: seeker_two on August 22, 2010, 08:15:44 AM
Because in society we are supposed to be better than the criminals.

I'm sure Barney Frank, Marion Berry, and Sheila Jackson-Lee agree with that statement...  ;/
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: roo_ster on August 22, 2010, 10:12:03 AM
Bit of a broad brush there don't you think?

It's a generalization, yes  I'm sure like anywhere else, there are people that don't fit it.  I stand by it, though.

I'm not one of these people that feels I have to accept everyone else's culture.  I think their culture is disgusting.

If WE get the government WE deserve, THEY get the government THEY deserve.

Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Racehorse on August 22, 2010, 10:29:43 AM
Although I'm probably in the minority, I think a punishment like this is disgusting. The prohibitions in our own Constitution on cruel and unusual punishment are there for a reason.

The wikipedia article on the 8th amendment sums up the rationale against this type of punishment pretty well.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: charby on August 22, 2010, 10:53:10 AM
If WE get the government WE deserve, THEY get the government THEY deserve.



I concur
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: zahc on August 22, 2010, 12:03:40 PM
Maybe I'm strange, but I really get no gratification at all from the thought of torturing criminals. I really do think that if I/'we' do that, it does bring us to a lower moral level.

I think a .45 to the temple, soon, is what appeals to me in cases like this. I have no desire to torture even the worst criminals, anymore than I have a desire to torture animals that are eating my garden or a dog that bit a family member. They just need killin'.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Nitrogen on August 22, 2010, 12:56:51 PM
I concur

I'd agree with this if they got to choose their leaders, which they don't (short of revolution)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: BReilley on August 22, 2010, 01:07:29 PM
Maybe I'm strange, but I really get no gratification at all from the thought of torturing criminals. I really do think that if I/'we' do that, it does bring us to a lower moral level.

This.  Maybe it is just to inflict the same damage on a perpetrator as his victim received, but that does not make it moral.  It is my opinion that there is something wrong with a third party(I can understand the victim's desire to inflict suffering) prescribing what amounts to torture.

If it warrants the inflictment of permanent paralysis, it warrants a swift death.  Anything less is bloodthirst(the bad kind).
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 22, 2010, 01:49:04 PM
I'd agree with this if they got to choose their leaders, which they don't (short of revolution)

Revolution is also a choice.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 22, 2010, 01:55:41 PM
Revolution is also a choice.

Great. So when you're a dissident in Soviet Russia, with your face being stepped on by the KGB, that's somehow your fault because you don't have enough compatriots to launch a revolution?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 22, 2010, 03:05:20 PM
 ;/

Nitrogen was talking about a choice made by an entire group, not one dissident.  So am I.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 22, 2010, 05:03:18 PM
My goodness.  Using the ancient precept of an eye for an eye, a Saudi judge is asking hospitals to intentionally damage the spinal cord of a criminal who caused paralysis in his victim.  I wonder if any healthcare facility in the Kingdom will perform the surgery. 

You are not citing the article correctly. At this point, at least, the judge has NOT asked any hospital to perform the procedure. He has asked them IF it can be done.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 22, 2010, 05:05:38 PM
This.  Maybe it is just to inflict the same damage on a perpetrator as his victim received, but that does not make it moral.  It is my opinion that there is something wrong with a third party(I can understand the victim's desire to inflict suffering) prescribing what amounts to torture.

But morality is not an absolute. Morality is opinion. Muslims consider themselves to be moral, and us westerners to be immoral. What you are really saying is that their concept of morality is different from yours. (And mine, I might add.)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MillCreek on August 22, 2010, 06:12:39 PM
You are not citing the article correctly. At this point, at least, the judge has NOT asked any hospital to perform the procedure. He has asked them IF it can be done.

I am sure such semantic distinctions are a great comfort to the sentenced individual.   [popcorn]

"Just because we are asking if we can make you into a paraplegic doesn't mean we are going to make you into a paraplegic, Akbar.  So what do you think the Knicks are going to do this year?"
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 22, 2010, 06:30:48 PM
But morality is not an absolute. Morality is opinion. Muslims consider themselves to be moral, and us westerners to be immoral. What you are really saying is that their concept of morality is different from yours. (And mine, I might add.)

Is that opinion, or "absolute"?
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: roo_ster on August 22, 2010, 07:12:57 PM
Is that opinion, or "absolute"?

 :lol:

Someone's logic, it negates itself.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: RaspberrySurprise on August 22, 2010, 08:52:18 PM
I'm sure Barney Frank, Marion Berry, and Sheila Jackson-Lee agree with that statement...  ;/

It wouldn't matter if Charles Manson agreed with the statement, that wouldn't make it wrong on it's own.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: AJ Dual on August 22, 2010, 10:09:48 PM
Great. So when you're a dissident in Soviet Russia, with your face being stepped on by the KGB, that's somehow your fault because you don't have enough compatriots to launch a revolution?

Nowhere in the mentioning of "revolution" was the concept that "life is fair" contained. Express or implied.  =)
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Nitrogen on August 23, 2010, 12:05:36 AM
But morality is not an absolute. Morality is opinion. Muslims consider themselves to be moral, and us westerners to be immoral. What you are really saying is that their concept of morality is different from yours. (And mine, I might add.)

You're right.

And I don't care.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: charby on August 23, 2010, 10:32:14 AM
Great. So when you're a dissident in Soviet Russia, with your face being stepped on by the KGB, that's somehow your fault because you don't have enough compatriots to launch a revolution?

People can always leave, sneak out or whatever.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: makattak on August 23, 2010, 10:59:01 AM
People can always leave, sneak out or whatever.

Wow, they can?

I'm sorry, but this thread is SCREAMING for a Godwinning now.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: Ned Hamford on August 23, 2010, 01:49:19 PM
People can always leave, sneak out or whatever.

I'm sure that ability was a great relief to the residents of Auschwitz and the 20k other camps that Germany set up a number of years ago. 

I find your 'whatever' to be highly questionable...
----------------------------------------------------
Got it covered makattak  =D
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: roo_ster on August 23, 2010, 02:09:07 PM
Far be it from me to try to un-Godwin a thread.  Personally, I think every other post on APS ought to refer to the Nazis.

Nazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazinazi.  

There, got it out of my system.

But, there is little utility comparing the bass-ackward savages that run Saudi to the Nazis(1).  If'n you have any cash, you can leave to most anywhere else.  The vast majority of folks stay because they like it just fine(2).  I went to school with lots of Saudis.  None of them had harrowing tales of their escape.  I bet if they went to INS (at the time) with a sob story about persecution they, like millions of others, could get residency here in the USA.




(1) Little use comparing the Nazis to the "Nazis" of legend, sometimes.  If you weren't already on AH's s*** list, you could serve in the German Army without becoming a soul-compromised creature of darkness.  For instance, the units that did most of the rounding up and carting off of the Jews were composed of folks who wanted to be in those units.  Many, many Germans transferred out of the units to more pedestrian Army units.  They still found puh-lenty of folks to round up folks for genocide.

(2) The gov't petro-cash tittie is mighty tempting to them.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MechAg94 on August 23, 2010, 02:57:34 PM
How good do you think their investigative system is?  
You think it's anywhere approaching as good as ours, that values people's rights at all?
I think that depends on who you are.  If you are a Saudi citizen or 1st world ex-pat, I'm sure they check it out in more detail.
Title: Re: Saudi judge looks into severing the spinal cord of a criminal
Post by: MicroBalrog on August 23, 2010, 06:15:02 PM
People can always leave, sneak out or whatever.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmjbrett.com%2FWallBorderTower.jpg&hash=49554c54aff6e94171ab19ee06bbccbe550e6b94)