Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: geronimotwo on October 03, 2010, 09:55:21 AM
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my daughters grade school teacher calls to tell us she is having a problem with my daughter. firts she tells me my daughter is reading in class while the teacher is speaking. then she goes on to say that when she tells her to take one of those personality quizzes where it asks what you you like and don't like, etc. under the what i don't like question my daughter says something like "i don't like people telling me what to do.". (i actually lol when she told me this, but her reaction made it clear this was no laughing matter. i guess we know where my daughter gets her authority issues from!) the teacher takes the quiz answer personally and makes her erase and redo it. to which my daughter writes " i don't like people who try to change me."
i am glad that she loves books but reading during class is a little disrespectful to the teacher. the quiz portion makes me wonder about her teacher, as it seems rather controlling to make her redo what her dislikes are, even if it is the teacher she is talking about. we are going to have a parent teacher meeting over this and i am wondering the best way to handle it. personnally i want to show my daughter my support without creating a negative classroom envirnment by ticking the teacher off.
we had wondered why my daughter kept asking us to home school her this year. previously she has been enthusiastic about going to school and the activities there.
any good advice on how to deal with either side of the conflict?
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This is one of the cases where it would be good to have one of those tiny little video cameras to document your interaction with the teacher . . .
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i will bring a small digital recorder. kinda wondering if i should let her know that or not? also, i am tempted to let my daughter take it to school so i can understand their relationship better. of course then my daughter would find a way to set herself up as the golden child.
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The answers your daughter gave are completely reasonable. Even if they were about you and not the teacher. Forcing a child to give the "right" answer will just build resentment, and will not solve the root cause.
If I were in your shoes... before the conference. I would be sure to get my daughters POV on how class is going and how she is getting along with the teacher. Start by asking specific questions about recent days to get her to open up. She might be afraid she'll get in trouble or be ignored if she complains about the teacher.
That way, you can go in to the conference and get the teachers POV. Be careful what you share from your daughter with the teacher if it is derogatory. A person with authority during a school day and a person dealing with an equal at conferences can be two different people.
My POV is very biased. I had a junior high principle pull me out of class and threaten me I wouldn't graduate 8th grade over some minor money issue. Then turned around and lied about it to my parents. By chance, another kid witnessed the event and corroborated the story.
Turns out the school had already received the money weeks ago. Their bookkeeping was so poor they didn't know.
The principal never received disciplinary action.
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kinda wondering if i should let her know that or not?
Depending on the local law, I guess.
From what you tell us, it sounds like you have a smart girl. That's not a bad thing. Perhaps you should consider homeschooling her - altough I suppose you have your own serious reasons not to.
You should be respectful and polite and yet firm in your opposition WRT the quiz. There's nothing wrong with your child. Your child may have done something wrng (like reading in class), but you must understand there's nothing actually wrong with her in this case.
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I went through what you are relating when my son was in school. He learned to be an independent thinker and was "his own person". I went in to the school many times over their social engineering policies. I would not accept their attempt to reprogram my son and made it clear it was totally unacceptable.
In my case it was 16 years ago and I understand it has gotten much worse since then. I vote for either charter school or home schooling as long as your child gets appropriate opportunity for socialization.
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i am glad that she loves books but reading during class is a little disrespectful to the teacher. the quiz portion makes me wonder about her teacher, as it seems rather controlling to make her redo what her dislikes are, even if it is the teacher she is talking about. we are going to have a parent teacher meeting over this and i am wondering the best way to handle it.
I think the advice to bring a recorder is bad advice. First, is it legal? Second, is it a good idea? Third, do you have any reason at all not to trust this person? How would you feel if you were the teacher and a parent came bopping into the room and started recording the meeting? I don't know anything about you, your daughter or the teacher but this seems like an easy way to put the teacher on the defensive and head things south quickly. Why not meet with the teacher, listen to what he or she has to say first and then go from there? Getting both sides of the story is important, there may be more to this whole story than what your daughter is telling you. The fact that your daughters teacher called is a good sign, why not try to meet half way? I'd talk to her about the test too, and let your feeling be known about that.
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How old is your daughter? My guess is 10 +/-.
It sounds like she's unchallenged and under stimulated by the educational environment and she knows she's getting the short end of the stick.
It's a good opportunity to to show everyone the difference between discipline and punishment.
Here's a plan to provoke thought. Tell everyone involved your plan up front.
Heck, type it up and email it.
Go in to the conference with an open mind, a recorder if you like, and see what the teacher has to say. You may find out things you didn't know.
Take the recording back to your daughter. Play it in its entirety. Discuss the meeting with her. Allow her a chance to respond.
Schedule a conference with the three of you (and an administrator if needed). Record it.
Encourage the teacher and your daughter to reach an agreement or compromise.
Encourage reconciliation and develop a monitoring plan.
Schedule a follow up meeting (three - five weeks?) before leaving the classroom.
Maintain communication (phone or email) on a weekly basis with the teacher. Include your daughter in on them as appropriate.
Ask your daughter on a regular basis (3-5x weekly) specific questions related to the results of your meeting.
Stay involved.
Let the school know you care and LET YOU DAUGHTER KNOW YOU CARE by holding each accountable for their actions and behavior.
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You have a couple of issues going on at the same time. My antennae perked up the tingliest at the boundary violation issues of "personality" tests and instructing your daughter to erase and re-do answers to said tests. Specifically, I seriously do not believe that the teacher is qualified by the school district or the state board that regulates professions to administer personality tests - even the touchy-feely hippie ones or those from one of the ladies' magazines are out of bounds. On a personal note - if this were me finding out the teacher was administering those tests I would be filing formal complaints with the school system, the state Dept. of Ed. (both for inappropriate behavior and activity outside the scope of her teaching license/certificate), and the state Dept. in charge of regulating psychologists/counselors (unlicensed practice). But that's just me.
Your daughter's reading during the timev the teacher is talking may or may not be problematic from an academic perspective. It all depends on what she is reading. If, for example, she is reading the text and "tracking" the teacher against the text she should be on firm ground, while the teacher would appear to have near- if not clinical - pathological issues of authority. If your daughter is reading something outside the tect but related to the subject being instructed then essentially the same thing goes. If, however, your daughter is doing other school work whilst the teacher prattles on, and your daughter is passing or better in that subject being prattled about, then the teacher has a problem with being an effective educator as she seemingly cannot hold the attention of her student(s). This needs to be reviewed by the teacher's supervisor through observation and evaluation. If your daughter is otherwise not disturbing/interrupting the class and getting passing or better grades, there should be no problem except for the teacher interrupting class instruction time to try to deal with an issue that could and should be dealt with outside of class - probably by a referral from the teacher to an educational specialist to see if your daughter needs to be placed i an advanced class here or there.
If your daughter is reading Judy Bloome or other trash (includng the WSJ or Congressional Record) during class then she is being marginally rude and you should discuss that with her.
At this point I would stromgly advise you NOT to meet with the teacher for the purpose of conferring or collaborating. Go solely for the purpose of fact-finding. Attend the meeting but do nothng but a) listen to the teacher explain what she sees taking place (recitation of dates/times and description of behavior(s)), b) hearing any statements of opinion of your daughter's academic achievement on both a personal basis and as compared to the class as a whole, c) hearing and statements of personal opinion or "feelings" expressed by the teacher. Personally I would bring an audio recorder and lay it on the desk in front of the teacher, announcing it is your intent to record the meeting. Then make a recorded introductory statement noting date/time/place/participants and asking the teacher to verbally acknowlege her consent to being recorded. f the teacher refuses o give consent turn the device off, whip out pape, and start taking notes. Tell the teacher to slow down and repeat herself whenever she gets ahead of your ability to write it down.
DO NOT contribute anything to the discussion at this stage except your desire to obtain facts/information.
After the meeting review what you have heard/seen and your emotional impressions of the teacher. Review the school system's guidelines for the "gifted" program and start thinking about how this might be a direction you want your daughter to go. Also review your thoughts about getting into home schooling and why this circumstance serves as the impetus to move in that direction.
After all of this you might want to arrange a meeting with the school guidance counselor (do they still call them that?) and/or the school psychologist before meeting again with the teacher AND her supervisor (both of them in the same room at the same time) to discuss your daughter and how she and the teacher are interacting. From that meeting you might feel a meeting with the Principal and/or the folks in charge of the special education programs are also in order.
[As a side note - you can sue a school district for not recommending a child enter the gifted program as well as for not recommending a child having difficulty in keeping up educationaly enter the remedial program. Dept. of Ed and Dept. of Justice frown on both.]
When you have contact with the folks at your daughter's school be sure you do not make them see you as antagonistic or hostile on any manner. All you are trying to do in the first meeting is gather information - let the teacher prattle on and give you enough ammunition to blow her up multiple times over - there is no need to interrogate her. The audio recording is just because you recognize the issue is important and don't want to risk missing anything she tells you. Yeah! Tat's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :angel:
stay safe.
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I would have agreed with Tuco if there had not been the two issues of pesonality tests and telling your daughter to change her resposes.
To me that changed the dynamic to the teacher making some moves that are not only unprofessional but illegal. Further, there is a spidey-sense tingling that the teacher's supervisor is aware of the actions and either does not recognize the professional boundary violations or does but has not taken any corrective action. Both are bad juju.
That the teacher can see only one solution to your daughter's reading in class merely suggests she is not as good an educator as she could be. A better teacher would exploit the situation, not seek to quash it.
stay safe.
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The strange part to me is that the teacher is picking on her for reading. It's not like she is talking, passing notes, day dreaming, sleeping, or causing a disruption. If she is actually making good grades, that is another reason to leave her alone. I used to read in High School, but mostly in that dead time after finishing the exercise early and having to wait for the end of class. I guess most teachers did want kids to pay attention. I would be curious if the entire class is behaving well and your daughter is the only issue. I doubt it.
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a lot would depend on what she was reading.
its still early in the year if the teacher fails my test time for a new one
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I showed this thread to Ms. MillCreek, who has been teaching at the elementary level for 17 years now. After she got done rolling her eyes at the suggestions for concealed (and probably illegal) audio and video recording, and the suggestion that the teacher is practicing psychology without a license, illegal activities and committing boundary violations, she had some ideas.
It is far more likely that the teacher wishes to help the child succeed than is trying to screw the child over. The 'personality quiz' was probably a tool used by teachers to help identify the child's likes and dislikes in the classroom environment. Reading in class is a wonderful idea, but the timing is everything. If the child is reading or doing other activities during active classroom instruction while the other children are paying attention, this is disrespectful, and most teachers would agree with this. For example, a child reading a fiction book during math instruction is not paying attention. A key skill in teaching is called 'classroom management', in which the teacher tries to herd the cats and keep them on track. If one child starts to disrupt the learning environment, other kids pick up on that and soon you have chaos. The kids who want to learn cannot because the classroom has been disrupted.
She points out that the OP is hearing only one side of the story. We all like to believe our children are giving us an accurate and unbiased account, but this is not always the case. She suggests that you go have a conference with the teacher with the attitude of finding out what is the problem and how the both of you working together can help your child succeed. If, for whatever reason, you are not happy with the results of that conference, you should take it to the building principal or vice principal. She points out that as a teacher, she has your child for seven hours or so, and you are responsible for the other seventeen. Who is the bigger influence?
For some of the rest of the comments, she suggests you might want to try the decaf instead.
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You want the truth? Your kid is probably learning more from reading books than from the teacher.
I used to read in class if useless crap was being "taught". I'd also get books taken away from me regularly and called out in class.
I went through what you are relating when my son was in school. He learned to be an independent thinker and was "his own person". I went in to the school many times over their social engineering policies. I would not accept their attempt to reprogram my son and made it clear it was totally unacceptable.
They tried to put me on Ritalin and such once they identified that I was a very independent learner. I never misbehaved in class. I always sat down and was very quiet and respectful of the teacher, and I did my work diligintly. Apparently, those are the signs of ADD...
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Home school man, home school!! They want little automatons.
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If the child is reading or doing other activities during active classroom instruction while the other children are paying attention, this is disrespectful, and most teachers would agree with this. For example, a child reading a fiction book during math instruction is not paying attention. A key skill in teaching is called 'classroom management', in which the teacher tries to herd the cats and keep them on track. If one child starts to disrupt the learning environment, other kids pick up on that and soon you have chaos. The kids who want to learn cannot because the classroom has been disrupted.
And that philosophy right there, the "one-size-fits-all" philosophy of public education, is arguably the biggest threat to continued American exceptionalism.
Henry Ford may have had good ideas for building cars, but his ideas don't translate so well toward building minds.
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. . . she tells her to take one of those personality quizzes where it asks what you you like and don't like, etc. under the what i don't like question my daughter says something like "i don't like people telling me what to do.". . . . the teacher takes the quiz answer personally and makes her erase and redo it.
If this is accurate, basically what happened here is that the teacher asked your daughter for her opinion - and when she didn't like the answer, she told her to have a different opinion - or lie.
Neither is an acceptable action on the teacher's part. Any decent teacher would have just explained to the child that lots of times we're told to do things we don't like, but we just have to deal with it. Telling a young girl, in essence, that she's not allowed to dislike something, is borderline abuse.
Document your interactions with the teacher. Agree that you don't want to go in and get medieval with her until you hear her side of the story, but just present yourself as a reasonable, interested parent who wants to know what's going on. Odds are, you'll be able to sort things out in a satisfactory manner.
But just in case you're dealing with a genuine lunatic (like the nun I had in 4th grade!) - document it all.
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The strange part to me is that the teacher is picking on her for reading. It's not like she is talking, passing notes, day dreaming, sleeping, or causing a disruption. If she is actually making good grades, that is another reason to leave her alone. I used to read in High School, but mostly in that dead time after finishing the exercise early and having to wait for the end of class. I guess most teachers did want kids to pay attention. I would be curious if the entire class is behaving well and your daughter is the only issue. I doubt it.
My 6th grade English teacher confiscated my book because I was reading rather than doing essay work she wanted me to do. Mind you, it wasn't due during class, but could have been done at home.
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Ms. MillCreek routinely confiscates iPods, cellphones and other electronic equipment being used during class (she is teaching fifth grade this year). She returns them at the end of the day. If she confiscates something from a child three times, she holds onto it until the parent comes and picks it up. She reports that she has not had to confiscate something four times.
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I second the recommendation on asking about the gifted program. I moved around a lot and had trouble getting into the gifted program once--generally my reading and writing scores were through the roof, but my math was only average. My parents got involved and it worked out where 90% of the time I'd be in the gifted program, but I'd walk down the hall to an otherwise empty desk for math one hour a day with a regular class.
I did the reading in class thing up through my senior year of high school, but I only saved reading unrelated material in class for the worst teachers. If you were a good teacher, I'd pay attention in your class and participate. If you were average, I'd sit there and at least only read out of your book, so we could both pretend I was at least on topic. If you were a bad teacher, I'd read whatever I want, and sit there staring at the wall when you took my book away. I broke more than a few of the bad teachers, and spent most of the second half of my geometry class reading fiction when she finally gave up on me.
So, with my own experience heavily coloring my opinion, I assume your daughter either has a bad teacher, or a teacher who has to teach to the center of the class, which is well below her personal level. If they won't get her into the gifted program, follow C&SD's advice and see if you can at least get her moved into another class. People don't like admitting that there are horrible, untalented teachers out there, but of course there are, same as in any other profession. Don't let your daughter waste a year of her education with one if you can help it.
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I'd walk in with two main points.
First I'd get the personality quiz off my chest and make it known expecting my daughter to changer her answers to what the teacher wants to hear is under no circumstances acceptable. If you don't like the idea of having unfavorable answers about yourself, don't ask the question.
The book thing though requires more looking in to. What type of book is she reading? When is she reading it? If your daughter is reading it after finishing an assignment or when she otherwise has free time, I fail to see the problem. If your daughter is reading from her text book during the instruction, I fail to see the problem. If during "free time" the teacher is blathering and your child prefers to read, I still fail to see the problem. However, if she's reading unrelated material during classroom instruction or reading while she's supposed to be doing an assignment, I'm inclined to agree with the teacher. Reading is great and something so few kids today show interest in. But, like everything else, there is a time and place for it. While the teacher is explaining the course material or while she's supposed to be completing an assignment isn't the time to pull out her favorite book and bury her nose in it.
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yes, my daughter is not only smart, but highly intuitive. every time i've sat down to reply to this today, she would hop over to see what i was doing.
the book was from the "how to train a dragon" series. the teacher also gives time for free reading in the classroom, so i am inclined to go along with this being disrespectful. still, my daughter is getting above 95% average on all of the work we are seeing. i am afraid that she is bored. unfortunatly, i don't believe that we have a "gifted" program in this school.
we will be meeting with the teacher later this week. initially i was thinking we would take our daughter with us, but now i am thinking it will be better to talk to them seperately. we will try to keep this as an information gathering quest as much as possible, and i may ask if i can tape the conversation so i can aproach my daughter with the information later. as far as seeking satisfaction with the principal, we have already called the principal out on another issue and had the school board take action to remedy that case. (so we are not attending any of his pool parties.) also, this is a small town where most of the teachers (including my daughter's), the principal, and superintendant all grew up here. the teacher is also on the principals brown nose list as far as i can see, and has been teaching for about 7 years now. i personally feel this is about the time when a teacher either starts to show how good they really can be, or they start to burn out and stop being innovative. at least she still cares enough to call.
To me that changed the dynamic to the teacher making some moves that are not only unprofessional but illegal. Further, there is a spidey-sense tingling that the teacher's supervisor is aware of the actions and either does not recognize the professional boundary violations or does but has not taken any corrective action. Both are bad juju.
i would hope that these professionals are above picking on my daughter as a grudge match, but who can say. we will know more later.
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i would hope that these professionals are above picking on my daughter as a grudge match, but who can say. we will know more later.
I've never met school administration officials who were above doing the "respect ma authoritah" shtick. Fuss about something in HS? Your car is definitley getting "randomly" searched, and more than once.
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Ms. MillCreek says that for a first meeting like this, it is best not to take the child. The teacher or you may be less than candid discussing matters in front of the child.
She says that it is a very good idea to bring the child along if it is a serious discipline problem, and the parent and the teacher want to present as a united front to the child in putting limits on behavior, discussing consequences and a plan to improve the situation. This is not the case here.
She also reports that some school districts do not allow taping of parent-teacher conferences, the teacher will not permit it, or they will want to get the district lawyers involved. I myself recommend against it. It creates an adversarial aspect from the beginning and it makes people nervous. When I am interviewing a provider or staff members in a lawsuit, I don't tape them.
If your boss has a conversation with you, does he/she pull out a tape recorder and turn it on? Probably not.
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You could ask the teacher why having a bright, independent thinking kid with her own mind is a bad thing?
Seriously, I have to side with your daughter on this one. The teacher is the problem. But, she's likely in a union, so good luck getting anything done about it. Only shot in the dark is if she tries the other children as badly, and their parents care enough about their child(ren) to do something about it. I never saw many parents that did.
Might want to talk to BrokenPaw, he had some school issues and could give you some good tactical and tactful advice on the situation.
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yes, it is a unionized school district, and there are at least two teachers with tenure that should be out of a job judging on the way they treat the kids. i'm not sure if our teacher has that mindset or not.
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You could ask the teacher why having a bright, independent thinking kid with her own mind is a bad thing?
Because independent, intelligent children are obstacles to a proper State Education...education that can only be properly accomplished through regimented classes where kids learn only what they are taught, and the Correct things must be taught so that the child forms Correct Opinions and holds the Correct Political Views and learns about the Correct Important Issues.
After all...if children can learn on their own, it's kind of doing the teacher's job for them, eh?
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Another thing to consider - these tests go to some other group at the school, and that might get your kid a mandatory psych eval/some bad remarks on her record ("by this single answer, we deduce that this girl is a budding psychopath"), or get the teacher harassed for alienating the student(s). May not just be the teacher feeling her authoritay is being mocked.
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Hm, I also read all day when I was in elementary/middle/high school. No one suggested putting me on ritalin. They should have. Since I started taking Adderall about two months ago, I can do just one thing at a time for the first time in my life.
Not suggesting your daughter has ADD, but I agree with Mrs. Millcreek that the teacher is likely trying to address a habit that may/is likely to be either impeding your daughter's education or indicating an area where the education needs to be tailored better to her needs or both.
I was only a teacher for two years, but I asked a few parents to meet with me to sort out discipline/education problems. As no point was I doing anything but trying to find a way to help my students learn better.
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just a link. (http://www.k12.com/) sometimes, just having an alternative makes it easier to deal with the idiots. >:D
Stossel had an interview with a student doing her schooling through this setup a few weeks back. was September 17th, i think.
good luck. =|
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I'd like to interject something here that is related to EXACTLY this type of issue. When I was a child, I got AWFUL grades in school and had some behavior issues. Keep in mind, my father was a traveling salesman and was home weekly but out during much of the week. Also, my mother became ill when I was 11 and died of cancer when I was 13. Anyway, I LOVED to read. I would read my mothers college books before she died, Flowers for Algernon, Of Mice and Men, Fahrenheit 451, Orwell's 1984 etc. at 11 to 12 years of age understanding and discussing them with her even. At school I was all but failing but when tested, I set the bar for the whole school in reading and comprehension! What it all came down to was that I was bored out of my skull and could not understand the purpose of learning a lot of the stuff and couldn't relate or see where it would ever do me any good in life and no one could give me an explanation that made sense to me. "Because we said so" insured that I would ignore you out of spite!
Years later, I get out of the Navy disabled and the VA offers to retrain me to find a job I could do seeing as I could no longer do the work I spent my life to that point learning. When I took their tests, they determined that I was quite capable of going to and passing college in most any field I chose! The ONLY class I needed to take an 099 "catch up" class in was Algebra. After that, I was making GOOD grades in most everything I took. I was acing Algebra too but the rote memorization in Trig killed me. That is something I could never do. Memorize formulas. Killed me in Chemistry too.
The point is, I was bored and lacked understanding in school up to and through High school. After tasting "the real world" and desiring to have a better life, I went to college in my 30s where I did well because I was challenged and had purpose. When I was a kid, if they would have explained that I could use algebra to calculate top speed based on engine RPM, transmission final gear ratio, rear end ratio and tire diameter, I would have been all about it! Displacement? Bore (pie r square) x stroke x number of cylinders! WOW! Useful! I balance equations all the time now figuring taxes, pay rates and Miles/Gallon etc. Marvelous stuff!
Kids are individuals and have different needs and personalities. Their family circumstances and environment are HUGE influences on them. To treat them like cattle and herd them through all these little boring pens ignoring that is not doing them a good service. Just what the answer is I don't know. I do like home schooling and wish more were able to do it. I would love to see smaller classes and smarter, more caring teachers but the politics and economy of that are the things of nightmares.
I am proud of you for taking the care to do all you can for your child and take a proactive part in her education. I applaud you for raising her to be a free thinking person who doesn't blindly follow without question. I hope you can help her to understand how this part of her life is so very important to the rest of her life. I hope you continue to encourage her in those good traits. I pray that you and her teacher can come to an understanding that will benefit your child and that the teacher can live with. I hope you open her eyes to the disservice she is doing to her young charges in forcing them to change her answers when those answerer, whatever they may have been, WERE her honest answers and therefore impossible to be "wrong." It makes me think of Orwell's 1984 and forcing the protagonist to give an answer that everyone knew to be false but to break him into at least seem to believe or accept it. I shudder at the thought.
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i'm another ritalin kid before they had ritalin.
and reading was my refuge and salvation. was reading at 3 took swiss family robinson to school with me in first grade had the teach accuse me of lying when she asked what i was doing with it and i told her i was reading it. she quieted down when i told her to pick a page. my teachers worked with me but it was different back then my folks were the kind that had the teacher over for dinner often along with her "friend" who was the school librarian and let me run amuck in the library.schools have changed but hopefuly they won't be too stupid if they are there are ways of making em play nice with a landshark
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There are good teachers out there. I've know a couple. They are slightly less rare than bigfoot.
Dad was Air Force, I had the fun of experiencing 9 different school systems by the time I hit 8th grade, the record was 4 in one year. I had some interesting experiences with teachers.
Go to the meeting with an open mind but accept the possibility that while your baby is capable of misbehaving the teacher is too.
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as another airforce brat i hear ya how it affected me was one reason dad got out. on the plus side it made me learn to adapt
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Given what Miss Geronimotwo is reading, I revise my comments marginally.
It is outright disrespectful because it is not related to classwork/schooling in general. She is probably reading because she is bored, but it is imperative to determione that all her classwork has been completed (including paying attention to the teacher) before she buries her nose in a book about dragons.
That being said, it does sound as if she needs/wants to be challenged and have her mind stimulated. From personal experience both being assigned and assigning additional work I can tell you doing so has a low chance of achieving the goal just noted.
My comment about suing for the gifted end of special education may have sounded harsh, and it is if you are just beginning the dialogue, but if your system claims it does not have such a program mentioning the possibility of either complaints to the state-level offices or a lawsuit might just jar their memory of where they put the program.
As a person who has short-term memory problems I often bring a recording device to meetings where it might otherwise seem adversarial. I also tell them that I will be glad to send them a copy of the recording after I get home and transfer it to a computer file. I explain the disability and when necessary tell them I will be glad to reschedule the meeting at a later date after submitting a formal request for ADA accommodation if they desire to go that route.
stay safe.
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How would you feel if you were the teacher and a parent came bopping into the room and started recording the meeting?
If they didn't record, I would record. Heck, I'd likely record on general principle and to avoid accusations in the future. Same thing for classroom time.
A key skill in teaching is called 'classroom management', in which the teacher tries to herd the cats and keep them on track. If one child starts to disrupt the learning environment, other kids pick up on that and soon you have chaos. The kids who want to learn cannot because the classroom has been disrupted.
If this ill serves a particular (perhaps) bright child, are we to consider it a discipline problem if the child tries something, anything to get value out of the time spent pent up with a score of mediocrities and a teacher pitching their materials at that level?
I second the recommendation on asking about the gifted program...
I did the reading in class thing up through my senior year of high school...
So, with my own experience heavily coloring my opinion, I assume your daughter either has a bad teacher, or a teacher who has to teach to the center of the class, which is well below her personal level. If they won't get her into the gifted program, follow C&SD's advice and see if you can at least get her moved into another class. People don't like admitting that there are horrible, untalented teachers out there, but of course there are, same as in any other profession. Don't let your daughter waste a year of her education with one if you can help it.
If your kid is doing well and reading other material, likely she is bored out of her gourd.
I read voraciously from 7th grade onward through senior year in HS(1). About the only classes that I didn't read non-class material in were calculus, physics, and chemistry. Most everything else was a breeze. I'd complete my work or whatever and whip out my current reading material.
I suspect that "a teacher who has to teach to the center of the class, which is well below her personal level. " may be the crux of the problem. There may very well be next to nothing the teacher is allowed or is willing to do to keep your child interested. The teacher has a curriculum, a class with a median ability level, and cranks it out. Your daughter is sand in her gears.
the book was from the "how to train a dragon" series. the teacher also gives time for free reading in the classroom, so i am inclined to go along with this being disrespectful. still, my daughter is getting above 95% average on all of the work we are seeing. i am afraid that she is bored. unfortunatly, i don't believe that we have a "gifted" program in this school.
i would hope that these professionals are above picking on my daughter as a grudge match, but who can say. we will know more later.
Sounds like your daughter is being ill-served by the education provided by that teacher/district and that my suspicion was correct.
Perhaps you could ask for a different teacher with a more advanced curriculum? Maybe advance a grade?
I'd bet that if you keep her in that situation she'll waste 9/10 of her school hours instead of the 3/4 usually wasted in public education settings. She'll see schooling as a waste of time and make friends with mediocrities. Maybe she'll make friends with real troublemakers.
Don't underestimate the pettiness of "education professionals" in the gov't school system. I had some terrific, some atrocious, and mostly middling instructors in the public school system.
Go to the meeting with an open mind but accept the possibility that while your baby is capable of misbehaving the teacher is too.
This.
(1) My 7th grade history teacher and my mom (as related to me by my mom)
<The usual update as to my progress, etc.>
And then...
History Teacher: You do know your son reads books in my class?
Mom: I'm sure he does. I saw the textbook.
HT: No, I mean he reads books having nothing to do with the subject.
Mom: Huh?
HT: In some cases, it might be a problem.
Mom: Is it a problem?
HT: No, since roo_ster does well on exams, completes his homework and assignments, and participates in class discussions--he'll look up from his book, raise his hand, answer or comment, and then go back to reading--I haven't mentioned it until now. I don't consider it a discipline problem.
Mom: What should we do about it?
HT: Nothing. He's already in my advanced seventh grade history class and learning everything I can teach him in the classroom. I've noticed his book titles are both fiction and non-fiction. He seems to have taken his education in hand.
Moral to the story: Not all public school teachers are worthless sacks.
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Explain to the teacher that your daughter requires intellectual stimulation or she gets bored easily, which is why she reads during class. (Probably true -- I spent a lot of classroom time drawing cartoons, didn't listen to lectures, and still made National Honor Society).
Also explain to the teacher that you are raising your children to on the basis of mutual respect, and that refusing to allow an honest answer to a dumb question does not show respect for the student, does not respect the assignment, and does not promote mutual respect between teacher and student.
What happens after that will depend on the teacher's reaction, but be sure to have that recorder running. I would NOT tell her you are recording, but that's just me.
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Not all public school teachers are worthless sacks.
most true! and the reverse is true as well.theres a school in montgomery county md called barrie day school. teachers kids go free or greatly reduced yet the teachers sent their kids to public school. the campus was gorgeous peacocks walking around a lil pond with canoes for trh kids in the center. ballet piano lessons etc. for the yuppie kid with everything. the only career those kids were suited for on graduation was living in a commune. big bucks big wheel parents happy but undereducated kids
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How interesting are the recommendations for the OP to do surreptitious and probably illegal audio recording without the knowledge and consent of all parties. As someone who is an actual parent, unlike many of the posters in this thread, I would be more concerned about what that says about me as a role model to my child than anything else. If you are not a parent, you may not understand this.
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How interesting are the recommendations for the OP to do surreptitious and probably illegal audio recording without the knowledge and consent of all parties. As someone who is an actual parent, unlike many of the posters in this thread, I would be more concerned about what that says about me as a role model to my child than anything else. If you are not a parent, you may not understand this.
Probably illegal is a stretch. Most states have allow recording of conversations as long as one party consents:
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html
As for what's moral, I'd never preach how to raise a child to someone else. Personally, I'd want my child to know you can't always trust others to have your best interests at heart, and that adults sometimes lie.
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i know from experience that they learn that earlier enough want me not to be the one that teaches her. kids are funny they take that trust real serious with mom and dad. and thats not speculative its based on hands on
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I went to a private school middle school and then back to public schools for high school. My first day of class as a freshman, I had my math teacher give us a handout about Numerology and how it could tell you about your personality and your future. The assignment was to use this Numerology guide to make a profile about yourself and possible futures.
Instead I wrote a paper about how Numerology was thinly-veiled new age religious tripe masquerading as junk science, and its inclusion in a mathematics curriculum was inappropriate.
Yeah, I got a parent-teacher conference on my first day. I ended up just getting moved to a new math class. The new teacher heard what I did and thought it was hilarious. Him and I got along great and my somewhat less abysmal government education proceeded without further incident.
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A few thoughts.
We all think we're special. We all think our kids are special. We all think we know best, both as kids and as adults. Two memories from my schooling remind me that at times others know best.
At primary school I'd avoid math, hated it. My dad worked hard on it with me, my head teacher worked hard on it with me, but I hated it and wouldn't do more than enough to appease them. I'm still bad at math, and perhaps that's just the way I think, but even now 20 years later at times I'll suddenly make very basic connections about math. I was capable enough to do better, but wasn't interested. I'd decided that math wasn't relevant to me, and I notice from comments above that others have made similar statements about other subjects.
During my A levels (16-18) I chose to do chemistry in an honest effort to stretch myself, but I struggled with maintaining interest, and quickly took to doing history work during chemistry lessons when I could get away with it. End of first year exams, in which I got an E, my chem teacher pulled me aside, told me that she was predicting me an A for university applications and I could do it if I worked at it. I did work at it, and I did get an A.
The other thought I have is that I notice how few responses there have been to MillCreek's wife's suggestions.
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A few thoughts.
(snip_
The other thought I have is that I notice how few responses there have been to MillCreek's wife's suggestions.
It may be rather telling that the thoughts and experiences of the majority do not agree with her. It seems her classroom and her school administration may be closer to the ideal than what most others have dealt with/experienced.
stay safe.
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As for what's moral, I'd never preach how to raise a child to someone else. Personally, I'd want my child to know you can't always trust others to have your best interests at heart, and that adults sometimes lie.
So you feel comfortable in teaching your child that the ends justify the means?
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It may be rather telling that the thoughts and experiences of the majority do not agree with her. It seems her classroom and her school administration may be closer to the ideal than what most others have dealt with/experienced.
stay safe.
Or what is more likely is that few people here have, or have had, elementary-age school children and/or no actual experience or training in education. BW is a notable exception to this as having both.
Recounting your crappy experience in high school or with one poor teacher by the Rugged Individualists here is quite, quite different from being a parent with a child in elementary school and being responsible for that child. Until you do it yourself, it is all theoretical for you.
Having attended a lot of school and school Board meetings over the decades, I have always thought it odd that so many people think they are qualified to have an expert opinion on education solely by virtue of having had a couple of kids. I own a car, but this does not make me an expert in automotive engineering.
But as the rich history of APS and life shows, having actual experience or knowledge of a subject is no bar to expressing an opinion!
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. . . Recounting your crappy experience in high school or with one poor teacher by the Rugged Individualists here is quite, quite different from being a parent with a child in elementary school and being responsible for that child. Until you do it yourself, it is all theoretical for you. . . .
I showed your original post to my mother, who had plenty of experience raising a child who could be a real handful at times. ;)
She thought reading an unrelated book - fiction, no less - during the lecture was inappropriate, and merited correction.
She also thought that telling the child that they're not allowed to write that they dislike something is the sort of thing that, once verified, ought to get the teacher read the riot act.
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i talked with my daughter about her classroom/teacher situation, and asked her how she felt it was going this year. she indicated that her teacher was unfair. when asked about specifics she told me about the "june box". our teacher has a box into which she puts the things she feels are disrupting her class (and keeps them there until june). in addition to ipods and psp's, i am told things like paper, books, and pencils are taken and put into the box as well. i guess my daughters reading has not been as big an issue as some other things in her class, as her books have not been confiscated, yet. i am looking forward to speaking further with the teacher.
my daughter is complaining of having an upset stomach again this morning. i hate to have her not like school. at the end of the year we are given a teacher request form. we always spend a lot of time researching and asking questions about the next grade teachers to try to get the best match, but this year we had slim pickings, and we didn't get the one teacher that we picked. (makes me wonder, again, about the conflict we had with the principal.)
another part of our problem could be how we did home school her for half a year, in first grade, while we took our sailboat on the intracoastal waterway. she loved finding the sealife along the way. we would take pictures and try to identify the different creatures and their habitats when we would get to the next library. makes me think we need to get back on the boat. if it weren't for that pesky thing called "work".
She also thought that telling the child that they're not allowed to write that they dislike something is the sort of thing that, once verified, ought to get the teacher read the riot act.
the teacher was the one who told me about having my daughter change the answer.
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the teacher was the one who told me about having my daughter change the answer.
did she give a reason/goal for why?
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the teacher was the one who told me about having my daughter change the answer.
did she give a reason/goal for why?
not yet, although, she did feel that her "i don't like people telling me what to do" answer was directed towards her.
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when asked about specifics she told me about the "june box". our teacher has a box into which she puts the things she feels are disrupting her class (and keeps them there until june). in addition to ipods and psp's, i am told things like paper, books, and pencils are taken and put into the box as well.
Maybe it's just because I'm young/unmarried/no kids, but I've always had a problem with teachers who take property and don't give it back. I'm assuming by "june box" she means she won't release the property until the school year ends? If I was a parent, I would come to the school and insist my property be turned over to me. I'm all for discipline, but I don't stand for theft.
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Maybe it's just because I'm young/unmarried/no kids, but I've always had a problem with teachers who take property and don't give it back. I'm assuming by "june box" she means she won't release the property until the school year ends? If I was a parent, I would come to the school and insist my property be turned over to me. I'm all for discipline, but I don't stand for theft.
I do know that confiscation of items causing disruption in the classroom is pretty common these days. I know that the typical teacher would absolutely love it if a parent came in to discuss this and to get the stuff back. The teacher could tell you how this makes a problem for the child and the whole class when the academic environment is disrupted, and she looks to you as the responsible parent to make sure that your child is not bringing these items to school. The teacher generally dislikes having to be put in the enforcement role, and I know that at many schools, a letter/handout is distributed at the beginning of the year listing items that should be kept at home rather than brought to school. Ms. MillCreek wonders exactly what an elementary school child needs a cell phone at school for. The parents say it is so that they can contact the child in an emergency, but Ms. MillCreek is old enough that she remembers that parents could just call the school and get ahold of their child or leave a message for the child.
For example, right now at Ms. MillCreek's elementary school, they are having problems with an item called Silly Bandz. Which I had never heard of before last week. They are a decorative rubber band that you wear around your wrist. Apparently the kids are shooting them off around the classroom at each other, are stealing them from each other, getting into fights over who can wear the most at one time and trading lunches for them. Several local schools in the Seattle area have banned them from the schools, are confiscating them if they are brought to the school, and have sent home handouts to the parents about them. I told Ms. MillCreek to say 'you'll put your eye out, kid', but she thought no one would get the reference.
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I told Ms. MillCreek to say 'you'll put your eye out, kid', but she thought no one would get the reference.
Such sad times we live in =(
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I think the advice to bring a recorder is bad advice. First, is it legal? Second, is it a good idea? Third, do you have any reason at all not to trust this person? How would you feel if you were the teacher and a parent came bopping into the room and started recording the meeting?
Honest people have nothing to fear from other's recordings of their interactions.
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How interesting are the recommendations for the OP to do surreptitious and probably illegal audio recording without the knowledge and consent of all parties. As someone who is an actual parent, unlike many of the posters in this thread, I would be more concerned about what that says about me as a role model to my child than anything else. If you are not a parent, you may not understand this.
"Keeping a wary eye on agents of the government" is useful behavior to model.
Such a recording is illegal in very few states.
Honest people have nothing to fear from other's recordings of their interactions.
My thoughts, exactly and why I'd welcome their presence.
It may be rather telling that the thoughts and experiences of the majority do not agree with her. It seems her classroom and her school administration may be closer to the ideal than what most others have dealt with/experienced.
Or what is more likely is that few people here have, or have had, elementary-age school children and/or no actual experience or training in education. BW is a notable exception to this as having both.
Recounting your crappy experience in high school or with one poor teacher by the Rugged Individualists here is quite, quite different from being a parent with a child in elementary school and being responsible for that child. Until you do it yourself, it is all theoretical for you.
Having attended a lot of school and school Board meetings over the decades, I have always thought it odd that so many people think they are qualified to have an expert opinion on education solely by virtue of having had a couple of kids. I own a car, but this does not make me an expert in automotive engineering.
But as the rich history of APS and life shows, having actual experience or knowledge of a subject is no bar to expressing an opinion!
Your assumptions are incorrect.
1. I was a student in two different private religious elementary schools.
2. I was a student in a public elementary school, two public middle/Jr HSs, and two public high schools. Quite a contrast to the aforementioned private religious schools.
3. I took several Ed Dept courses in college, intending to double-major in Physics & Education, but was dismayed by the content (lack thereof), instructors, and the quality of the Ed majors. I decided not to throw good money after bad and double-majored in Physics & History instead.
4. I have two children, one currently in kindergarten.
5. I have worked with elementary-aged boys as a leader in Cub Scouts and have trained them up on various skills. (Amazing how well my experience training fresh out of HS recruits translated over.)
6. I am on the board of trustees for the private religious school my children attend.
As an aside, we are good friends with several families, one or both of whose parents work in the public schools (classroom teachers, music teacher, vice principal) . NONE of them send their own kids to public schools and keep us posted on the current state of public school affairs in those particular districts (FTW, Irving, Dallas, Plano).
I would suggest that opinions contrary to yours are not necessarily based on ignorance.
Kids have been kids for millenia. It does not require a Ed Dept indoctrination to figure out what has worked for that millenia. I'd suspect that many of those you despise at board meetings have a firmer grasp than union apparatchiks and entry-level policritters. Especially with regard to what is best for their particular children.
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not yet, although, she did feel that her "i don't like people telling me what to do" answer was directed towards her.
i like your kid!
teacher might not be totally dense
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Honest people have nothing to fear from other's recordings of their interactions.
No, they don't. But.... Have you ever had somebody start recording a conversation that you were having with them? I have. It didn't change what I said or did but it certainly changed my perception of that person. Especially considering that this was the first time we had met or spoken. It also made me think that they were expecting things to get adversarial down the line.
edited:for spelling
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"Keeping a wary eye on agents of the government" is useful behavior to model.
I'd suspect that many of those you despise at board meetings have a firmer grasp than union apparatchiks and entry-level policritters.
Wow, Mrs. Smith, the 55 year old elementary school teacher as an agent of the government, union appratchik and policritter. I see.
I bet the water meter reader bears watching, too. [tinfoil]
Oh, and rooster? Ms. MillCreek taught for several years in private schools. She says that since they have the option of kicking out kids or parents who are behavior problems, kids who speak languages other than English, often do not serve special ed or emotionally disturbed children and have lower student-to-teacher ratios, they sometimes get better student results than many public schools who don't have these advantages. I wonder how public schools would compare if they had these same advantages.
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Honest people have nothing to fear from other's recordings of their interactions.
I am sure then, that you won't mind if we film you for every second of time you are outside of your house. Surely you have no expectation of privacy or are concerned about being filmed, are you?
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Wow, Mrs. Smith, the 55 year old elementary school teacher as an agent of the government, union appratchik and policritter. I see.
I bet the water meter reader bears watching, too. [tinfoil]
One is poisoning kids' minds in a government school . . . the other is poisoning their bodies with fluoride in their water . . . hmmmm . . . :laugh:
I am sure then, that you won't mind if we film you for every second of time you are outside of your house. Surely you have no expectation of privacy or are concerned about being filmed, are you?
There's an awful lot of that going on already, with traffic cameras, various and sundry security cameras, ATM cameras, police dash cameras . . . I recently saw a news report that the "average" person is photographed 100 times a day.
As a matter of interest, you know that your webcam is turned off, if your laptop has one?
In any case, when a teacher (public employee) is meeting in a public building with a member of the public, there's no reasonable expectation of privacy.
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Wow, Mrs. Smith, the 55 year old elementary school teacher as an agent of the government, union appratchik and policritter. I see.
The whole purpose of even having public schooling is to socialize children in whatever the dominant values of the government are.
As such it bears watching.
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The whole purpose of even having public schooling is to socialize children in whatever the dominant values of the government are.
As such it bears watching.
In case I missed it, exactly what are those dominant values, then?
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I went to college to get the training necessary to teach. I took the tests to be approved by the state to teach - after having spent three semesters in ever-increasing student teaching settings. I taught high school for a number of years before having to leave due to a reduction in force situation.
I worked for over a decade in the state welfare system getting troubled youth into special education settings that they should have been in years ago.
I worked as a private advocate for parents with problems with the school system, ranging from conflicts over special education placement (not placed, inappropriately placed, not removed).
I served as a member of the curriculum development team for both middle and high school English and History curricula for two suburban school systems - once as a teacher in one system and once as a consultant hired by the other system.
I have served as a mentor in a mid-sized city with a significant we-don't-meet-state-standards-for-accredidation-and most-of-our-kids-are-already-left-behind status.
I have absolutely no information about what's going on with geronimotwo's daughter, her teacher, and her school system except what has been mentioned here - and take everything said by everyone as being second-hand at best with regard to veracity, accuracy, and emotional/political/philosophical filters being operative.
Now that my bona fides have been laid out, I'm going to go back to two issues only:
1) regardless of how innocuous they might seem, the administration of any personality assessment instrument by a person unlicensed or specifically trained in the administration and interpretation of such in an educational setting is a violation of professional ethics if not school system policy and/or state law regarding the professional practice of teaching and psychology. Geronimotwo's profile does not list his state of residence so I cannot look it up and give the exact citations for my assertions but I am confident that they are accurate.
That being the case, I am leery of the teacher to begin with. Some other things that have been mentioned (the "June box" especially) further raise my level of concern. The discussion of how other classroom issues are handled further trouble me.
2) based on the reports from Miss Geronimotwo the teacher already has an adversarial relationship with the child. Geronomotwo reports that there may also be an adversarial relationship between the school and parents. There is reason to ensure that all conversations with the teacher are memorialized. An explanation of the reasons (including the for-me correct but for geronimotwo possibly tongue in cheek reason of "short-term memory deficit") given up front, along with a recording of the teacher's assent, is not surrepitous. Anybody, in my very biased opinion, who did not follow the up-front notice, even in a one-party consent state, would be considered behaving in a less than ethical manner with the teacher. I must have missed where someone else recommended recording on the sly.
Some of what geronimotwo has revealed after I first suggested recording all contacts merely strengthens my recommendation.
Throughout my adult and professional life I have studied, both informally and as a course of graduate and post-graduate study, the operation and functioning of organizations and the people who make up organizations. School systems were a major focus of my studies. As most folks could tell you based on personal, anecdotal experiences, they are not designed and operated to foster the education of children on either side of the middle three standard deviations of the bell curve.
I support folks working with the classroom teacher and the school system. As a matter of fact, if asked for an opinion or to consult in a situation, I insist on the parents first dealing wth the classroom teacher and seeking a resolution. At times there are issues in conflict between the values and goals of the teacher and the parents. From what has been revealed this appears to be such a situation.
My impression is that geronimotwo is reluctant to flex very much with regard to some of his values and goals for his daughter.
stay safe.
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The whole purpose of even having public schooling is to socialize children in whatever the dominant values of the government are.
As such it bears watching
I'm going to have to disagree with this, too. It may seem like that is what public schools were designed to do, but the real purpose is a lot less sinister. There are two general goals. Produce educated people who can go into the workforce and to produce good citizens. Of course everybody is now going to say that the public school system assimilated me.
The National Governors Association has quite a lot to say about the purpose of our public schools, how they should be run and what we are looking for as the product of our schools. I included the following link in case anybody was interested.
http://corestandards.org/the-standards
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The two are not mutually exclusive.
I wrote a large research assignment once on the development of public schooling in Europe. Let's just say both goals were very openly on the minds of the founders of this concept. Of course "producing a good citizen" and "socializing a person according to the values of society" are basically the same.
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BTDT.
Ask any HR weenie just how prepared kids coming out of high school are ready to go into the workforce as entry-level workers. I'm not talking about needing to learn the differnce between bulding a Mickey D burger and a Burger King burger. I'm referring to knowing that they are expected to show up on time - not just to flip burgers but wherever they are hired. Or that even when they are bored or tired they can only get a break at the scheduled times.
How do you explain all the polls and video interviews that show so many young adults not knowing that our country is a republic and not a democracy, or worse not being able to descrive either form of government?
The last time I saw an educational system that had pretty much figured out how to do what you describe was in England during the 1950's - somewhere around our 6th grade (age 11) kids were tracked either into vocational/clerical training or separated from the drodd and prepped for university to become lawyers, accountants and government bureaucrats.
stay safe.
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when we have la raza members teaching, do you really think the system is above reproach? =(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoTV9l77_UA.
oh and, why was home economics removed? ???
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I'm referring to knowing that they are expected to show up on time - not just to flip burgers but wherever they are hired.
This has not really been the case at any of the jobs I held through the last seven years. Being 15-20 minutes late has usually been acceptable everywhere.
But the problem is, the education system has also been corrupted - for decades - by several influences rendering it incapable of performing even its ostensible goals. I refer, of course, to no-wrong-answer mushy-mindedness as well as the influence of public employee unions and politicians seeking to water down standards to increase pass rates.
Of course, that all said, a lot of these videos/polls are skewed by panic-mongerers.
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How do you explain all the polls and video interviews that show so many young adults not knowing that our country is a republic and not a democracy, or worse not being able to descrive either form of government?
Useful knowledge, history, information, and skills are simply unacceptable subjects to teach these days, apparently. And even if they were taught, the lack of discipline in schools means learning would be obstructed anyway.
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I'm referring to knowing that they are expected to show up on time - not just to flip burgers but wherever they are hired.
This has not really been the case at any of the jobs I held through the last seven years. Being 15-20 minutes late has usually been acceptable everywhere.
you're no mabs but didn't you mention some employment difficulties?
we dock folks an hour if they are 20 mins late be late 3 times? don't worry it stops being a problem.
wanna know what symbolizes todays young workers for me? a kid late for work a few mins repeatedly but he always shows up with a cuop of starbucks he know hes late but stops for coffee. its a regular occurence. especially union jobs
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Maybe Young Ms.Geronimotwo is just a twiddler, a dreamer, a silly heart?
Time to call in her crazy uncle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIR8QtMv1W4
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you're no mabs but didn't you mention some employment difficulties?
we dock folks an hour if they are 20 mins late be late 3 times? don't worry it stops being a problem.
wanna know what symbolizes todays young workers for me? a kid late for work a few mins repeatedly but he always shows up with a cuop of starbucks he know hes late but stops for coffee. its a regular occurence. especially union jobs
For me it's "But I clocked in on time!"
Forgetting that they spent 30 minutes after that putting stuff in their locker locker, gabbing with their buddies, and picking lint out of their ass before moseying over to their work area and thinking about doing their job. Start time means you start working at that time, not run through the door swipe your badge and then take your time getting yourself in order.
Other is bitching about how they just don't have time to do all this work. Some of these people, when you add the 10 minutes here and there together, burn a good hour of work time talking bitching or moaning. Ironically it's almost always about not having time to finish their job and they are worked to hard.
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Ask any HR weenie just how prepared kids coming out of high school are ready to go into the workforce as entry-level workers. I'm not talking about needing to learn the differnce between bulding a Mickey D burger and a Burger King burger. I'm referring to knowing that they are expected to show up on time - not just to flip burgers but wherever they are hired. Or that even when they are bored or tired they can only get a break at the scheduled times.
I'd lay more of that blame on the people who raised the kid than on the school.
when we have la raza members teaching, do you really think the system is above reproach?
The system is NOT above reproach. The classroom shouldn't be your personal soap box and schools shouldn't be used to advance political agendas.
I wrote a large research assignment once on the development of public schooling in Europe. Let's just say both goals were very openly on the minds of the founders of this concept. Of course "producing a good citizen" and "socializing a person according to the values of society" are basically the same.
I don't see "good citizen" and "socialized" as being the same thing. I think I see where you are going with this, but do you see my point?
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Wrt chronic lateness, I think there are some cultural disparities in operation.
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For me it's "But I clocked in on time!"
Forgetting that they spent 30 minutes after that putting stuff in their locker locker, gabbing with their buddies, and picking lint out of their ass before moseying over to their work area and thinking about doing their job. Start time means you start working at that time, not run through the door swipe your badge and then take your time getting yourself in order.
Other is bitching about how they just don't have time to do all this work. Some of these people, when you add the 10 minutes here and there together, burn a good hour of work time talking bitching or moaning. Ironically it's almost always about not having time to finish their job and they are worked to hard.
Off topic, but I have to plug my service here. Hire somebody who just got out of the CG if you can. Especially if they were at a small boat station for a while. My crew shows up on time, gets to boat checks right off the bat, works late when needed and generally walk around with a smile on their faces for most of the day. Even when they do b*tch about stuff it is pretty good natured. We have 27 people attached to the station right now and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them for a job on the outside.
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it was no accident that all my help were marines at one time. they said if i hired one more i got a flag. one cavaeat is they have to have been successful in the service. no bcd and other than honorable
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the teacher called us last thurs. friday we had no school due to a flood warning. today our class had a substitute teacher. we have left a message, so she should be getting back to us.
on another note, we have talked to a friend of ours, who was my daughters teacher last year. she tells us that our current teacher will take things personnally and can make it difficult for a proper teaching environment if she perceives the child to be oppositional. of course that is in her opinion.
thanks for all the great advice thus far. i am inclined to go into the meeting with mrs millcreeks attitude, i would like it to turn out as well as she hopes that it may. if not, we will have to decide what our next course of action will be.
to get my daughter in a better frame of mind for attending school this morning, i suggested that she pretend that she was "harriet the spy" and keep an eye on the happenings around her. this afternoon she came back with about twenty journal entries. most of which were related to the sub teacher yelling at various students for petty things. i can already see how this will help the situation if she is caught doing this by her regular teacher. bring on uncle buck!
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you're no mabs but didn't you mention some employment difficulties?
we dock folks an hour if they are 20 mins late be late 3 times? don't worry it stops being a problem.
I have two jobs.
One of them actually requires my presence at the workplace.
Two people need to be on-shift at any given time in theory, in practice the boss only requires one person. If I am going to be late, I call the guy whom I am replacing and tell him not to wait for me.
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BTDT.
The last time I saw an educational system that had pretty much figured out how to do what you describe was in England during the 1950's - somewhere around our 6th grade (age 11) kids were tracked either into vocational/clerical training or separated from the drodd and prepped for university to become lawyers, accountants and government bureaucrats.
stay safe.
Don't they still do this in Germany? I remember reading about this one time, and the great pride that came with being a skilled worker there. They had a very elaborate, thorough and well-designed vocational training and apprenticeship program. I thought that made a lot of sense, rather than the overarching emphasis on 'college or nothing' here in the USA.
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How interesting are the recommendations for the OP to do surreptitious and probably illegal audio recording without the knowledge and consent of all parties.
That's twice already you have claimed that recording the session is (probably) illegal, and I haven't gotten to the end of the thread yet.
How and why do you think it even might be illegal?
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Probably illegal is a stretch. Most states have allow recording of conversations as long as one party consents:
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html
Note that the law in many of the states addresses specifically "wiretapping," or recording of telephonic conversations. I only checked a couple. My state's law says nothing about in-person conversations. California's law treats in-person the same as telephone conversations.
Only 12 out of 50 states require permission of both parties.
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For me it's "But I clocked in on time!"
Forgetting that they spent 30 minutes after that putting stuff in their locker locker, gabbing with their buddies, and picking lint out of their ass before moseying over to their work area and thinking about doing their job. Start time means you start working at that time, not run through the door swipe your badge and then take your time getting yourself in order.
That's what I always thought, but at my current job the boss likes to sit in the break room for 30 minutes to an hour, just talking and drinking coffee. So we all sit with him.
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End of first year exams, in which I got an E, my chem teacher pulled me aside, told me that she was predicting me an A for university applications and I could do it if I worked at it. I did work at it, and I did get an A.
What's an 'E'? In the U.S. we typically (unless high schools have converted to grade point average, whatever that is) use A (90-100), B (80-89), C (70-79), D (60-69), and F (below 60, and connoting "Fail").
'E' could only mean "Exceptional" or "Excrescent."
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An E is a mark between D and F.
I know this because I hold 8 GCSEs and 4 A-levels.
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That's twice already you have claimed that recording the session is (probably) illegal, and I haven't gotten to the end of the thread yet.
How and why do you think it even might be illegal?
They mentioned it in law school. A cursory perusal of the case law shows the illegality of surreptitious audio/video recording in several states when two party consent is not obtained. I don't practice in the state where the OP lives, there is no attorney-client relationship and thus would not presume to offer him legal advice. Perhaps you are licensed in that state, have him as a client and are more familiar with the statutory and case law than I am.
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I am sure then, that you won't mind if we film you for every second of time you are outside of your house. Surely you have no expectation of privacy or are concerned about being filmed, are you?
Following someone around is harassment. Recording a voluntary interaction is not.
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No, they don't. But.... Have you ever had somebody start recording a conversation that you were having with them?
It doesn't require a reel-to-reel and a boom mic these days. Odds are you've been recorded without your knowledge fairly often. Heck, for under $20 you can get decent audio and video in a very discreet package that no one will suspect even when it's sitting right in front of them.
Just assume that everything you tell someone can be proven later.
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you're no mabs but didn't you mention some employment difficulties?
we dock folks an hour if they are 20 mins late be late 3 times? don't worry it stops being a problem.
How is not paying folks for their work legal?
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How is not paying folks for their work legal?
I assume that's part of their contract.
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wanna know what symbolizes todays young workers for me? a kid late for work a few mins repeatedly but he always shows up with a cuop of starbucks he know hes late but stops for coffee. its a regular occurence. especially union jobs
The client just got rid of one of those; seems after years of wandering in 15-30 minutes late every day with a Whataburger bag, cup of coffee and a newspaper, putting in a brief appearance at his work area, then heading off to the break room with his food for 20-30 minutes, followed by a similar seeion in the can with his newspaper, he got transferred to a different supervisor who noticed such things. He lasted all of a week, while they went through the process of overlooking it once, mentioning it the second time, actual verbal warning on number three, written on number four, and walking him out the door on the fifth day in a row that it happened.
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The last time I saw an educational system that had pretty much figured out how to do what you describe was in England during the 1950's - somewhere around our 6th grade (age 11) kids were tracked either into vocational/clerical training or separated from the drodd and prepped for university to become lawyers, accountants and government bureaucrats.
Not really how it worked, or works where it still exists.
The 11 plus was established by an education act of 1944 (where did they find the time?) and was supposed to set up a tripartite education system.
Grammar schools - highly academic system
Secondary technical schools - technical/scientific education
Secondary modern - practical skills, for lower skilled jobs and house-wifery
In practice there were flaws. The secondary technical schools never appeared on a wide scale, leaving a bipartite system. My dad passed his 11 plus and went to grammar school, but actually for the career he ended up in he would have ideally gone to a secondary technical school as he trained as an electrical engineer. My mother failed hers and went to a secondary modern, but again as she ended up as a radiographer perhaps the non-existent secondary technical school would have been better. Fairly clear that the secondary modern education did not stretch her.
It also appears that the 11 plus favoured certain socio-economic groups, apparently in the early days there were questions about the role of household servants. This was changed, and allegedly those changes then made the test unpopular with the previously supposedly favoured groups.
In places the secondary modern was a very poor relation to the grammar school, badly under-resourced. This and the failure to provide technical schools ended up with the practical situation that passing or failing the 11 plus seemed like it was make or break. That's a lot for an 11 year old to deal with.
In principle the idea isn't that bad, it wasn't properly resourced, possibly because in post-war Britain we couldn't really afford to radically overhaul the education system like that. I have no objection to streaming off in this way at some point, but 11 seems young, I've met plenty of later developers and bright people who failed their 11 plus.
There was a system in this country that worked better, a system of apprenticeships. My dad did one, went on to get an HND and did have the opportunity to make that up to an undergrad degree. He was working, learning technical skills and attending college. This started after O Levels, so 16-17. These days he'd have had to do an undergrad degree to get the same education, and then go into the workplace, and I'm not sure that anyone but the govt is really convinced that this is a superior set-up.
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Note that the law in many of the states addresses specifically "wiretapping," or recording of telephonic conversations. I only checked a couple. My state's law says nothing about in-person conversations. California's law treats in-person the same as telephone conversations.
Only 12 out of 50 states require permission of both parties.
btw we are in ny .
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Aaagh! Fistful's put up a micro-dot camera.
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btw we are in ny .
Surprisingly, according to the link provided earlier (http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html) NY does not require the consent of both parties.
Millcreek, I am not an attorney. However, I did study statistics. 12 out of 50 is 24 percent, which does not translate to "probably" in my lexicon.
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Surprisingly, according to the link provided earlier (http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html) NY does not require the consent of both parties.
Millcreek, I am not an attorney. However, I did study statistics. 12 out of 50 is 24 percent, which does not translate to "probably" in my lexicon.
In that case, allow me to point out to you the problems with relying on general-interest Internet resources for this sort of thing:
Privacy law is a very dynamic area of the law and frequently changes due to state and Federal appellate court decisions. I would not rely on a general-reference website to be as current as needed.
The actual fact pattern is key to determining if conduct is legal in a given state. This usually requires analysis of the facts and interpretation of the applicable law. General-interest websites are not capable of doing this other than to express some generalities. Based on the fact pattern, taping may be illegal under certain circumstances in more than 12 of 50 states. Especially if the taping is done surreptitiously.
You are completely disregarding the concept of civil liability. Even if taping is allowed under the laws of a given state, there may still exist a tort of invasion of privacy. You can be sued in civil court for money damages. Case law is replete with cases on this topic.
There seems to be a belief that even if state law allows taping, the other party is somehow obligated to permit this. This is generally not true outside of some governmental settings, such as open meetings and the like. I am perfectly within my legal rights to refuse to be taped, and if you do so without my knowledge (and/or in some cases consent), I will sue you for violating my privacy. People should disabuse themselves of the notion that the legal right to tape does not necessarily translate into the ability to tape, especially if the other person does not consent. They have the option of walking away. You generally cannot compel someone to be taped against their will outside of certain circumstances.
My comments are not to be construed as legal advice but rather general educational comments.
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I am less than sympathetic to claims of privacy made by a gov't employee going about their duties in a public building, all of which (employment, building, upkeep, operations) are paid for by taxpayers.
Unless the duty being recorded is that of the gov't employee popping a squat in the restroom or identifying and speaking about other children's' (or other persons') confidential data, those who are paid with taxpayers' dollars ought to be subject to observation, audit, and recording whilst performing their duties.
Don't like taxpayer supervision? Don't take taxpayer dollars.
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I am less than sympathetic to claims of privacy made by a gov't employee going about their duties in a public building, all of which (employment, building, upkeep, operations) are paid for by taxpayers.
Unless the duty being recorded is that of the gov't employee popping a squat in the restroom or identifying and speaking about other children's' (or other persons') confidential data, those who are paid with taxpayers' dollars ought to be subject to observation, audit, and recording whilst performing their duties.
Don't like taxpayer supervision? Don't take taxpayer dollars.
Becoming a government employee does not necessarily mean checking all your rights at the door, of course.
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i have found folks who record sometimes get a rude awakening. have seen them record the evidence used against them and get that funny look on their face
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i have found folks who record sometimes get a rude awakening. have seen them record the evidence used against them and get that funny look on their face
"Honest men and dishonest fools fear not to be recorded."
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i got gigged at virginia theological seminary for setting my vid cam up to do time lapse. caught the whackenhut security guards doing an all you can eat and carry away in the kitchen there. i was in trouble since the lady biz manager had brought them in and was highly invested in their success. she was quite miffed since just 24 hours before she had assured us all at a big meeting that those guards never entered the kitchen just checked the doors from the outside. she attempted to tell me i broke the law recording and was very upset with the letter i had from the commonwealths attorney outlining what i could legally do. was quite the good time
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i have found folks who record sometimes get a rude awakening. have seen them record the evidence used against them and get that funny look on their face
Some yahoos broke into a local rich guy's estate (guy made millions on video games) and had a party. They took pix of themselves living it up - nice, clear pix. Forgot the camera when they left. Made TV news. Promptly identified and taken into custody. Much laughter. (from everyone else.)
Unless someone's in a state that requires consent of both people to make a recording, there's not much of a parallel with recording normal interactions with a government employee . . .
i got gigged at virginia theological seminary for setting my vid cam up to do time lapse.
Coffee fund at work was being pilfered, so some folks did the same. Caught the custodian. Corporate security showed him the tape and "encouraged" him to resign. (he did.) Good result, attaboys all around.
Today, we no longer have regular corporate security - it's been outsourced.
To Wackenhut. ;/
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I am less than sympathetic to claims of privacy made by a gov't employee going about their duties in a public building, all of which (employment, building, upkeep, operations) are paid for by taxpayers.
Unless the duty being recorded is that of the gov't employee popping a squat in the restroom or identifying and speaking about other children's' (or other persons') confidential data, those who are paid with taxpayers' dollars ought to be subject to observation, audit, and recording whilst performing their duties.
Don't like taxpayer supervision? Don't take taxpayer dollars.
Key words and tricky phrases: "legitimate expectation of privacy".
There are times when a government employee has such, including on the job (bathroom and discussion of confidential info certainly qualify). Most times, however...
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"Honest men and dishonest fools fear not to be recorded."
Or you have people who believe strongly in privacy rights who choose to opt out of recording. I would think that Rugged Individualists/libertarians would be counted amongst those.
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Or you have people who believe strongly in privacy rights who choose to opt out of recording. I would think that Rugged Individualists/libertarians would be counted amongst those.
Only the ones who can't comprehend the difference between a private activity and a voluntary interaction.
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Only the ones who can't comprehend the difference between a private activity and a voluntary interaction.
Voluntary interaction presupposes that both parties agree, not so? If one party chooses to not participate, or the second party does something without consent of the first party, it is not particularly voluntary, now is it?
Where is John Galt when you need him to explain these things?
Fixed typo.
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[popcorn] >:D [popcorn]
i'm liking this
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I am actually still hoping to hear how things go with the OP and the teacher. I could always hit up Ms. MillCreek for some advice or ideas as requested.
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When I was a kid, they often told me how "smart" I was.
I always ignored the teacher and read Sci Fi in class.
I only graduated because I read all the text books, never did homework.
The teachers were sure I was cheating, I would often have to take a test over with them watching me ( I had read all the text books in the first few weeks of school )
The only classes I liked were science and history.
I love reading, it however has gotten me nowhere. I am a lot smarter in the things that interested me but know zilch about many important things. A lot of people that can't hold a candle to my I.Q are way, way better off than I am.
What I'm getting at, is tell that kid to get good grades and a good job.
Its better in the long run to be a stealth rebel than a real one.
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The smart thing would be to direct the child's reading in the right direction... my father had done me a lot of good by pointing me towards the classics at an early age.
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You could always get her a copy of Atlas Shrugged =)
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You could always get her a copy of Atlas Shrugged =)
Better still, Glen Beck's book: Arguing with Idiots
The title alone should make the teacher's head explode . . . >:D =D [popcorn]
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Voluntary interaction presupposes that both parties agree, not so? If one party chooses to not participate, or the second party does something without consent of the first party, it is not particularly voluntary, now is it?
Where is John Galt when you need him to explain these things?
Fixed typo.
He's in Galt's Gulch and assiduously not working a gov't job and taking a salary from taxpayers.
Don't like taxpayer supervision? Don't take taxpayer dollars.
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Do Your Homework
I found this list of ideas to maximize the utility of a parent-teacher conference. I thought it may be of use to the OP and other people here with elementary-age children. Ms. MillCreek thinks this is a pretty good list.
How parents can get the most out of their 10 minutes:
Ask your child to share concerns before you go.
Bring written notes and questions.
Tell the teacher about at-home issues that might be impacting your child's academics.
Don't be antagonistic. View the teacher as your partner.
If teacher uses jargon, ask for simple explanations and specifics about your child's work.
Keep the conversation focused on your child—not your childhood, the teacher's workload or views on the curriculum.
Discuss strategies you and the teacher can use to help your child. Write out common goals.
Ask for follow-up emails and conversations.
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>Tell the teacher about at-home issues that might be impacting your child's academics.<
I can agree with all but this. If you have a crusader for a teacher, that could be a REALLY good way to get social services climbing up your backside. And once there, they NEVER go away...
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>Tell the teacher about at-home issues that might be impacting your child's academics.<
I can agree with all but this. If you have a crusader for a teacher, that could be a REALLY good way to get social services climbing up your backside. And once there, they NEVER go away...
seems like a presumption of an adversarial relationship can be a self fulfilling prophecy
i can say i entered into the whole school thing with a chip on my shoulder was pretty sure i was gonna be THAT parent the one raising heck. i was mistaken. those i've encountered in 5 years have been uniformly part of a team i wanna play on with the same goals if not higher ones , that we hold for our lil heathens.
i might tell a teacher if the wife escaped or if a spouse was deployed or any of a dozen things that might impact her life at school. for example when her pony died i went to school with her and told the teacher. i let them know when we were expecting her sister.
i can't see not availing myself of a team approach to raising my kid. and to exclude or start of with an adversarial approach with someone who will spend more time with my kid than i will would seem at best "ill advised"
i never bought into the whole atlas shrugged thing it was read right after dune and before shogun and all three have equal weight in my life, they were after all novels
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i might tell a teacher if the wife escaped
Especially if there was a bounty!
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on escaped wives bounty is usually for dead only
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on escaped wives bounty is usually for dead only
Or you could pay a bounty to make sure they stayed escaped. I would have paid to have Ms. MillCreek 2.0 hauled away. Fortunately, last time I heard, she was down in Dallas, which is sufficiently far away.
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my ex is in va beach i'm miffed that she feels safe that close i'm losing my touch
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Fortunately, last time I heard, she was down in Dallas, which is sufficiently far away.
Gee....thanks for making her OUR problem.... :facepalm:
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I am actually still hoping to hear how things go with the OP and the teacher. I could always hit up Ms. MillCreek for some advice or ideas as requested.
we had a fairly civil discussion. the teachers main concern is that my daughter is finishing her work too quickly! evidently she hands out the assignments at the begining of class and then gives a brief lecture on the task at hand, with the understanding that if you finish early you may use the remainder of your time as you wish, as long as you are at your desk and being quiet. miss g2 is finishing the work before the teacher completes her lecture which has two unwanted results. 1) the teacher feels it is rude to pull a book out when she is still talking. 2) the rushed work is rather sloppy.
the "personality quiz" is on a portion of each childs artwork being displayed in the hall. i really don't understand why she was made to redo the answer other than the teacher didn't like it.
we went with the idea of gathering as much information as we could and chose to think on it before making judgement/suggestions. miss g2 has always needed to work on her neatness as she does rush through her assignments. we welcome suggestions to help with her improvement.
as far as recording the meeting... i called the county DA's office and the assistant DA told me that in NY it is fine to record conversations as long as one of the parties is aware of it.
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Ms. MillCreek is not home yet. I know that in order to give the best advice, she would like to know the age/grade of the child. Please let me know.
Also, it sounds like you had a productive meeting. I really do feel that parents and teachers working together for the common good of the child produces the best results. I can already tell that you care about your child, and that is more than half the battle in Ms. MillCreek's eyes. I just about weep sometimes when she comes home and tells stories about neglected children and disengaged and disinterested parents. I have often thought that you have to pass a test and get a license to drive a car; perhaps you should have to do the same to have kids.
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miss g2 has always needed to work on her neatness as she does rush through her assignments. we welcome suggestions to help with her improvement.
http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yourself-Better-Handwriting-New/dp/0071636382/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1286413446&sr=8-9
My handwriting is still awful, but it's at least legible after a bit of work with this book.
If you really want to push her, try something classic:
http://www.amazon.com/Spencerian-Penmanship-Theory-Book-copybooks/dp/088062096X/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1286413446&sr=8-12
A fountain pen will force a light touch, which will slow down a too-fast hand, and these guys can teach a lot: http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/
Very reasonably priced fountain pens (and other pens): http://www.jetpens.com/
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Pelikan has several child/student fountain pens available. I agree that they are a great way to improve handwriting. If that doesn't work, try an italic nib. That was what really got me to work on developing decent handwriting.
Is there no advanced/gifted class available? If the work is to grade level and she's getting through it that quickly compared to the rest of the class, is she in the right class?
In middle school, I had one teacher who worked out extra assignments with me, including more advanced stuff to read when everyone else was finishing up their work. At the time, Branagh's Henry V had recently been released and I was interested in all things English and Shakespeare, so she had me reading the other Shakespeare histories and writing essays on the plays, the history, and the politics. It was pretty great to have a teacher show some sign of caring about how bored out of my mind I was listening to the rest of the class struggle through some book or other for weeks on end. So much better than merely being permitted to read whatever I had handy when I finished my work.
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if you go FP, think about grabing some FPN ink (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/43242-fpn-ink-ordering-information/) to go with it. =D the Galileo brown (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18219-fpn-galileo-manuscript-brown/page__p__166196#entry166196) is my favorite. or noodler's (http://www.noodlersink.com/).
but in my experience, i write faster with a FP. [tinfoil]
some pen links.
http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/214 <- has some cheap pens
http://www.xfountainpens.com/Fountain-Pens-s/6.htm
http://www.isellpens.com/
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i think we have a fountain pen around somewhere. might be worth trying. if i can't find that, we do have a quill pen replica we bought while visiting fort stanwix!
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Ms. MillCreek was working late at school but just got home. I asked for her ideas. Here is what she said:
"If it's a girl, it's usually (not always) but usually a phase. Best thing the parent can do is take assignments that come home that seems to be important and do two things, have the child go over the papers orally discussing the answers and rereading her work, and then, if that doesn't solve the situation then have the child redo the answers at home: erase and redo. There are usually one of a few basic reasons for sloppy work: attitude (which can usually be solved with consistent parent support and positive communication w/ teacher), undeveloped fine motor control, and ADD/ADHD (which only a physician can diagnose and is difficult to diagnose, especially in girls, until 3-5th grade). I'd start with the positive reenforcement/communication w/ teacher and making sure student knows there is communication so she knows she is supported and that her work is important.
It is also possible that the student is bored and does not have enough challenging work. You should ask the teacher if she can have extra assignments, extra-credit work or work above the grade level. However, my experience is that students who are so bright that the curriculum is not challenging them usually are challenging themselves with high end reading, high end questions and responses orally, they usually get very fixated on a big idea in science or math, etc. Then class work can be sloppy and hurried but when the child knows it matters, they show they are capable of quality work. That's why the piece of positive communication with the teacher is so important. Rarely is anything figured out and solved over a course of two weeks or even half a year. That's why teachers notes and follow through of the previous teacher is so important.
Very, very, very few students are ever "bored" and not challenged, but lots and lots of parents think that is the problem because they are so emotionally attached to their child and it's pride extension to be able to say my child is bright and is bored in school."
Please let me know if I or Ms. MillCreek can be of any further help.
PS: She said to come back and emphasize that you and your teacher are in the best position to see if this advice fits since you have the experience with your child, and she obviously has never taught your child.
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add/adhd, if you think it's one of these. the first step is one week with NO caffeine and reduced sugar/carbs. i have known entirely to many kids to have they're lives ruined because they were getting to many stimulants and the parents/teachers/doctors were to short sighted to see the cause and just threw more stimulants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate) on top. =|
this is some interesting reading to. [tinfoil] (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/issues/ritalin.html)
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add/adhd, if you think it's one of these. the first step is one week with NO caffeine and reduced sugar/carbs. i have known entirely to many kids to have they're lives ruined because they were getting to many stimulants and the parents/teachers/doctors were to short sighted to see the cause and just threw more stimulants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate) on top. =|
this is some interesting reading to. [tinfoil] (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/issues/ritalin.html)
Yeah, but:
In the grand APS tradition of thread drift, no particular relationship to Ms. Geroninotwo's situation,
I lost a whole lot of my life to "girls usually don't get ADD/ADHD". I have ADHD. It was diagnosed two months ago. I am 31. I had every sign of ADD as a kid, except I didn't misbehave and I'm not a boy. Didn't see much point in it, and had too much empathy to want to be unnecessarily mean to other kids or to the teacher. Girls.... ;/
You can bet your sweet bippy I'm addicted to Adderall. It is salvaging my life. I'm the first to admit that I don't mind being on a drug that makes me feel good, has probably raised my IQ by 10-15 points, and contributes to weight loss. Beats the heck out of the ten years I spent bouncing around between drugs that did nothing at all but make me feel worse, impede my ability to work, literally made me stupider, and made me fat.
Brains need dopamine. Mine doesn't have enough. Adderall helps. A lot. I'm also addicted to water.
I agree that misdiagnosis is terrible: I've lost a whole lot of potential in the past decade living with the wrong diagnoses, at time taking meds that were, in hindsight, the polar opposite of what I needed, and which were very destructive. It sure seems like the latest fad diagnosis is something to avoid. Trouble is, if it's the correct diagnosis, there is a whole lot to be lost by looking for some other explanation or ignoring the problem. The fact that hundreds of young boys are taking Ritalin to make their parents/teachers feel better about their school performance doesn't change the fact that I need Adderall (or a similar drug) because I have chronically low dopamine.
I really, really wish that twenty years ago, someone had said "Yeah, so girls don't usually have ADD, but what if this one does?"
Also, sugar is not a stimulant. Nor are carbs.
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it has that effect on some people, and you'll note i said first step. not this will cure it every time, or there's no such thing. =|
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it has that effect on some people, and you'll note i said first step. not this will cure it every time, or there's no such thing. =|
I was responding more to the Ritalin (kinda' sorta') = cocaine tone of the link you posted. Well, and a little to Mrs. Millcreek's opening comment "If it's a girl...."
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ah, the only time that's really an issue is when it's given to a kid that doesn't need it. it really does mess them up. =( around here some of the teachers have decided any kid that they have trouble teaching(aka they don't worship the teacher) needs to be drugged.
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I'm also addicted to water.
If you find a way to beat that, let me know. Cold turkey definitely doesn't work.
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if you go FP, think about grabing some FPN ink (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/43242-fpn-ink-ordering-information/) to go with it. =D the Galileo brown (http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18219-fpn-galileo-manuscript-brown/page__p__166196#entry166196) is my favorite. or noodler's (http://www.noodlersink.com/).
I'll second Noodlers; all my FPs are running either their Blue-Black or Gruene Cactus, including the Pilot Varsity I keep as a backup for the Hero 616 and Sailor Recruit I use at work.
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It is also possible that the student is bored and does not have enough challenging work. You should ask the teacher if she can have extra assignments, extra-credit work or work above the grade level.
Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids. (In terms of "extra-credit" . . . if the child is already earning an "A" she's a bright kid, and it won't take her long to figure out that "extra credit" doesn't mean anything. If she's NOT earning an "A" then be sure there's a tangible benefit - like raising the grade - to the extra work.)
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Well, and a little to Mrs. Millcreek's opening comment "If it's a girl...."
I asked Ms. MillCreek about this, and she said that her advice would have been different for a male student of this age. In her experience, rushing through assignments and turning in sloppy work is more common amongst boy students, usually is not a phase and therefore requires more work to address. Thus, she wanted me to find out the age and gender of the student to target her advice. I bet this is probably consistent with your teaching experience, too.
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Nope, I only taught girls. =)
Oddly, I'm not a big fan off Noodler's. Takes too long to dry. Diamine is awesome, though, as is Mont Blanc (ink, not pens).
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In grade school, I used my "bad handwriting" to cover up for answers I didn't know. Didn't take them long to catch that one. My dad made me practice my penmanship for hours and hours and lines and lines. My handwriting still sucks and I truly wish it didn't.
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my handwriting is so bad the nuns gave up let me go back to printing at end of third grade
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In grade school, I used my "bad handwriting" to cover up for answers I didn't know. Didn't take them long to catch that one. My dad made me practice my penmanship for hours and hours and lines and lines. My handwriting still sucks and I truly wish it didn't.
I just don't have the fine motor control to do that either. My penmanship never really progressed past the third grade level either. So I always had to resort to block printing. And even then, as I lose control, I have to press/work harder and harder until my hand is exhausted and trembling for more than a paragraph.
However, the computer revolution came along just in time for me. I can type fine. And I have no problems with fine motor skills for precision mechanical/electrical things either. Just handwriting.
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Ms. MillCreek sometimes drafts me to help her correcting and grading papers. Some of the chicken scratches can hardly be read and she is teaching fifth grade this year. She says this is due to a couple of factors: handwriting instruction/penmanship has been cut down dramatically in favor of other aspects of education, and the growth of computers. She stated that handwriting/penmanship is not something that is tested under No Child Left Behind, so schools don't get dinged or lose money for poor penmanship whereas they do for things like reading and math.
I started block printing back in fourth grade or so, and still do it now. The only thing I handwrite in cursive any more is signing checks or receipts.
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I'm still fairly negative wrt the situation as a whole. I'm going with the sloppiness as an indication of boredom as opposed to anything else. I'm opposed to "extra credit" unless it gets the kid promoted to the next grade faster or otherwise accelerates her overall academic status. Anything less is busy-work and she will most likely see it as such.
If there were less indication that the specific teacher did not have control issues I'd recommend some sort of modfied Montessori approach to the use of the "down time" the child seems to be saddled with. I'm just not convinced the teacher can tolerate someone going off on their own tangent and the teacher needing to be as quick and broadly interested as the kid might turn out to be.
I'm still going to pimp for an assessment to be placed in a gifted program - if only for one or two subjects if that's what comes out of the assessment. Kids who are in fact capable of doing more should be rewarded with formal recognition of their capabilities rather than hobbled and made to - for them - shuffle along at the slower pace of the rest of the class.
IIRC 5th grade is the last one before middle school. Middle school, IIRC, is where kids either get mired down or start to really shine and parents can start to see some possibilities of their child being advanced a grade without major problems of immaturity wrt the rest of the class.
In the interim I'd see what can be done at home to improve penmanship - but only to a certain level that does not include endless practice lines. Remember, as Mrs. Millcreek has noted, most of her "writing" from this point on in her life will be done using a keyboard. Yes, some handwriting will take place, but it is exceedingly common for that to be done via block-letter printing. Unless the child has pre-selected a goal as a caligrapher I don't see a need to get too concerned. (And yes, caligraphy can be a wonderful hobby. But only if she shows interest.)
Yes, my bias to advocate for the kid is in play. Never denied it. It comes from never having attended a classroom until my second half of Junior year in HS - hom-schooled back when it was called State Dept. Dependants' Correspondence Courses. Mater & Pater encouraged me to complete a month's worth of lessons before the end of the first week of the month, and then I got "enrichment" via real-life exposure to both cultural and scientific stuff (read: dragged to museums, art galleries, the opera, and working for free as Dad's lab assistant and lecture/meeting flip-chart page turner). It also comes from a decade of work with "problem kids" who benefitted from an adjustment in their educational placement (remedial, advanced, or lets-get-him-out-and-into-a-real-job) as part of attempting to prevent them from becoming career prison inmates.
stay safe.
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Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids.
+100
I see it a lot at work too; the few guys who actually get 12-14 hours worth of work (based on the company's averages) done in a 10 hour shift get to do extra work and still get the same pay as the slackers doing 8 or less. They either burn out hard or learn to slack within a few months.
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Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids. (In terms of "extra-credit" . . . if the child is already earning an "A" she's a bright kid, and it won't take her long to figure out that "extra credit" doesn't mean anything. If she's NOT earning an "A" then be sure there's a tangible benefit - like raising the grade - to the extra work.)
Extra credit is generally horse pucky.
In 10th grade math class I had a 103 average, and a couple of my classmates were also over 100 ... for the year.
All we got was 'A.'
Big bleepin' deal.