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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: cfabe on March 06, 2006, 02:35:41 PM

Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 06, 2006, 02:35:41 PM
I went to see a property today. The property is 2.5 acres backing up to county park land on two sides, it's in an area I like and is only about 25 minutes commute for me. It's listed at a price that is comporable to what building lots go for in the area, so I assumed the house was going to be rough. I won't be able to get inside until later this week but I went by today and took some pics of the outside. The property would be very affordable and could be a good starter house for me if the house is usable. I probably can't afford to tear down the house and rebuild because building codes in the area require 1800sqft fancy houses.

I see signs of structural issues. The roof ridgeline has some significant sag in two areas, and the front wall of the house is leaning out in the center. The roof is in bad shape and is leaking inside in at least one place I can see, with a hole in the ceiling plaster. I also opened up the crawl space access and found standing water, there was a sump pump but I'm sure the power was cut off long ago. I'm guessing that a pier in the center of the house has sunk/collapsed/rotted and allowed the center of the house to sink, bowing the front out. The standing water in the crawl space concerns me, could this compromise the whole floor structure? I'll be tempted to try to rehab this if I think I can do it for under 20k. If the floor structure is sound and there's not much water damage inside, I think it may not be too big of a deal to pour a couple new footings under the house and raise the center back up. Thoughts?

Pictures are located here:
http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/MunsonTwp/
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: The Rabbi on March 06, 2006, 02:50:46 PM
Gutters.
I've certainly seen worse.  Yeah, looks like new roof and decking are in order, probably some supports too.  But I dont think it couldnt be rehabbed.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 06, 2006, 03:44:59 PM
Water damage...any mold in the property?
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 06, 2006, 03:46:55 PM
Mold, yeah probably.. it has been vacant for a while and the crawlspace has standing water. Mold decontamination would be part of the rehab. I'll have a better idea when I see the inside, hopefully later this week.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 06, 2006, 04:52:03 PM
OK.

The problems that I see just from the photos...

Photo 100-225

1. It looks like the oil tank is getting ready to fall off its supports. The oil tank looks OK, but I'd be very worried about its condition where it's up against the brick. Figure at least a couple hundred to put it on the proper legs.

2. The chimney looks like it could have serious problems.

Photo 100-226

3. Those rust stains on the siding are likely just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to roof leakage. Don't be surprised if there are serious structural issues.

4. Windows are definitely dated.

100-227

5. You're not kidding that roof has issues. Another good heavy snow and it might have even more issues.

6. Looks like the bottom of the door frame is rotted from water splashing off the step.

7. It may be an optical illusion, but the house may be sagging a little on the left side towards the door.

100-228

8. Garage needs paint and a roof, but other than that, it doesn't look half bad.

100-229

9. Neighbors are too damned close.

230

10. Uhm... Yeah. That speaks for itself. Roof is gone, chimney has one brick in the grave, another on a banana peel. It looks as if it has been patched several times. It may require a complete tear down. It also looks as if it might be sagging away from the house near the roof.

231

11. Nothing too out of the ordinary in that photo, except for the color. Uhm... What is that wire wrapping around the siding and boring through the wall?

238

12. Retract that on the garage. It's pretty evident that that wall is starting to collapse. Probably a rotted sill. If you want to save it, you'll have to jack that wall up, dig out all of the rot, rebuild the sill, and then correct the water problems that led to the rot.


Obviously it's going to have a well and a septic system. You'll have to have those inspected.

Things to have the property inspect for, as well.

1. Condition of wiring, especially in the ceilings where the roof is bad.

2. Any insect infiltration around the sills.

3. Condition of interior plumbing.

4. Condition of heating system. If the crawl space has water in it, that makes me believe that the boiler or furnace may be in serious trouble.


Things you want to look for as you tour the interior.

1. Doors that won't close straight.

2. Windows that refuse to open (unless  painted shut).

3. Indications of sagging floors.

4. Any evidence of rodent or insect infestation.


It could be a nice little property, but it really looks as if you're going to be spending quite a bit of money fixing it up.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 06, 2006, 05:59:12 PM
Mike, thanks for taking the time to write that up. I'll pay special attention to that area around the chimney from the inside, I do see now how it could look like it was leaning away from the house.

The big issue with the house seems to be water damage, is it safe to assume that if the plaster is intact inside there hasn't been much water infiltration in that area of the house?

I had already been figuring on complete re-wiring and re-plumning, I'm capable of doing those tasks myself.

At the moment I'm still going to go see the inside but I think the structure may be too far gone, unless the seller is willing to part with it at a lowball price.

More comments are welcome.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 06, 2006, 07:42:42 PM
"is it safe to assume that if the plaster is intact inside there hasn't been much water infiltration in that area of the house?"

Unfortunately, no.

Water infiltration between the walls can cause plaster to "de key," essentially come away from the walls in large sheets. You don't notice it until you either get a large bubble in the wall, or a large sheet comes down. That's fixable, but it's a HUGE pain in the ass.

The only way you can know for sure if the structure is salvagable or not is to have an architect, engineer, or really good general contractor come in an inspect it for you.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: brimic on March 06, 2006, 08:54:07 PM
Better to bulldoze it and start over, probably cost the same amount in the end.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Azrael256 on March 06, 2006, 09:10:03 PM
If you find any, and I do mean any indication of a shaky foundation, it's trash.  Any cracking in the walls, laser levels don't match up, marbles all roll to one corner, or anything like it, and it's not worth it.

If it's standing up straight, I'd say it's worth fixing it up if you're going to do it yourself.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 06, 2006, 09:22:05 PM
Cracking in the walls can be caused by many things, as can tilting floors, not just foundation problems.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 01:43:47 AM
Whenever I look at a structure, the first thing I look at is the roof line. A sagging roofline almost always means big trouble. That garage with the collapsing wall is probably not salvageable and probably not safe either. Then there's the septic.

Don't feel bad, I'm seriously considering a 12,000 plus sq ft  x 100 yo brick building. Just about the same shape as that house except it's solid as a rock. It's BUILT on rock. So yesterday I talk to the firesprinkler guy cause the town (and myself) want it sprinkled and he gives me a ballpark of $150,000 to $200,000. KAAAAKK!! I thought "maybe" $50,000. No city water, I'd have to put ~ a 50,000 gal water tank out there. I haven't quite given up, yet...
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 07, 2006, 03:23:53 AM
$200K for sprinklers in a 12K square foot building?

What the hell is he smoking, or is he going to smelt the fricking copper ore and extrude the pipe on site?

I'm assuming that that's copper/iron pipe, and ripping through all the walls...

How about PEX? It's legal for sprinkler systems in some areas.


I've helped salvage garages and buildings in FAR worse looking shape than that. It just requires a little ingenuity (sp?), some timber, some jacks, and the willingness to see it through.

The one we did decide to knock down? I was helping friends try to rehab a medium sized outbuilding on a property that had been the great grand mother's.

The sill was rotted in the corner and 2 sides were dropping. They wanted to use it as an outdoor shop.

Decided to pull down the building and put up a prefab when we discovered that the entire interior was black walnut, some of it with a pretty incredible graining pattern. That 10x15 building got turned into a LOT of furniture.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 04:20:26 AM
Yup, he said $150,000 would be the cheap job. Cheesy  It's the tank. 50,000 gallons of water is a LOT of water, takes a pretty big tank. It's ok, the town is so gung ho on doing something with this building, lets see what they've got to offer. My ace in the hole, up to this point, has been my HVAC license. There's no heat in the building and I can put it in for wholesale. Wink

Yea, The garage could be saved but is it worth the effort? Same thing with the house, the structure is sagging, is it worth it to do all the work to try to resupport it? It'll probably never be straight.

Plus Mike is right, the neighbor's house looks WAY too close to me.

I'd think about it and look at more properties in the meantime.

Looking at fixer uppers can be depressing. You see the potential in a nice old structure but when you start to look at the costs to renovate your heart starts to beat erratically...

LOL...
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: InfidelSerf on March 07, 2006, 04:23:29 AM
Hmm 20k budget for repairs on a building that may, if not in fact, be torn down in the near or distant future?
I say you spend 5k on the garage and 15k on a nice RV.. have you checked the listings lately?  
You can get a nice living space in that range. Smiley
Then scrap out the house and save up to build a home in a better position on the property.
This is assuming you plan to live there a long time and would enjoy the investment.
either way have fun Smiley
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 07, 2006, 05:36:51 AM
You're right 280 it sure can be depressing, I was excited when I first saw the propertly listed, but my enthusiam has fizzled out as I add up the costs and unknowns. I just found out now that the property is not only in a low, wet area, but it's also in the 100yr floodplain. So I imagine the house has had water issues it's whole life, which coupled with poor maintainence may be a death sentence. Oh and there's also no record of a well or septic ever being installed (records go back to late 40s here), so I had to assume it needed those as well. Poof there's another 15-20k.

On the bright side, I found another property that I'm going to go walk today at lunch. This one is a bare building lot, even closer to my work. 10 acres listed at 100k. But the seller paid only 48k in 11/2004 and needs to move it due to a divorce, so I may be able to get it for significantly less. It does have a stream running through it, but it's not flood zone and appears well drained from the topo map. And the zoning regulations are looser in this area, a 2 bedroom house needs to only be 1200 sqft. Oh and also the property is zoned for 1.5 acre lots, so there is the potential to split two 1.5 acre parcels along the road at the front, and save the back 7 for me.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Guest on March 07, 2006, 05:44:15 AM
280plus,-what are you going to do with a 12k square building? Sounds like what I need for a woodworking shop. I had a friend wanting to be legal in his shop of 2500 square feet in a rural area, he got the same sort of line- 1000 gallons a minute fire flow, for one hour. 60,000 gallon tank? sometimes I think the fire regs are totally out there.

 Cfabe- I am convinced the LAND is where the value really lays, for me, far better a useful piece of ground, well drained and arable with reasonable building regs and a small home, than any glitzed up huge house on a tiny unuseble lot. You can change the house, you can't change the land.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: mtnbkr on March 07, 2006, 05:45:02 AM
I was going to suggest what Veloce851 suggested, but your second paragraph sounds like a better plan altogether.  

Chris
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 05:49:02 AM
Yup, look for high ground... Cheesy

I had a "friend" once who built his house anout 1.5 miles from the CT river in a nice new development. The storm sewers drained to the river. When the river flooded the very next season the water came up the storm drains and flooded what turned out to be a little low lying area where his house was. It had never flooded there before they put the storm drains in. shocked
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 05:50:23 AM
I'll tell you what else is depressing. Being a single guy and going to an "Indigo Girls" concert.

Sad
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 07, 2006, 05:52:12 AM
"Yea, The garage could be saved but is it worth the effort?"

Going by the pictures, 3 apparently solid walls and 1 rotted sill with a sagging wall really isn't that much effort given that to replace the double bay garage that's already there would be a lot more effort and a lot more expense.



"I just found out now that the property is not only in a low, wet area, but it's also in the 100yr floodplain. So I imagine the house has had water issues it's whole life, which coupled with poor maintainence may be a death sentence. Oh and there's also no record of a well or septic ever being installed (records go back to late 40s here), so I had to assume it needed those as well."

The water issues could probably be dealt with, if you're so inclined, but it would be a pain in the butt.

The flood plain issue is a much bigger concern, as you'd have to get flood insurance at very likely a significant extra cost.

No septic or well?

Not a chance.

Putting a septic system in a flood plain is getting a LOT harder to do, and you'd likely end up with an elevated sand mound given that it sounds as if the water table is pretty high in that area.

If you had to do an elevated sand mound, your $15 to $20 K would be dedicated to the septic, and you'd still need to drill a well.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: charby on March 07, 2006, 06:00:55 AM
cfabe

I don't think you can rehab that place for 20K.  Septic might eat a lot that up if its crappy and depending upon the regs in the county/township. Looking at the pictures that house and garage is a tear down to me. I've spent the last 12 months looking for a house and its down right depressing, the houses I want I can't afford or don't want to be strapped by the payments or the ones I can afford I wouldn't give more than the lot value for.  People want a lot of money for a pile of *expletive deleted*it.

Charby
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 06:02:49 AM
Quote
280plus,-what are you going to do with a 12k square building?
Multi use / storage, are you anywhere near CT? Cheesy

I have my own HVAC biz and I've been looking for a building to house my trucks and equipment. I want a portion of the 12,000 but plan to lease the rest out. If I can get around this sprinkler thing. Supposedly there is no warehouse type storage in my immediate area.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Paddy on March 07, 2006, 06:39:50 AM
Suggestion.  Get a home inspection from a licensed professional.  Whatever the raw land value is, deduct that from the asking price.  That's what the seller is asking for the house & improvements.  If the repair/replacement estimates are more than that amount, the house is a knockdown; offer land value less costs of demolition.  Negotiate.  It doesn't look to me like any lender will make a loan on that property in that condition, so barring a cash offer from someone else, you may be in the driver's seat.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on March 07, 2006, 06:48:04 AM
Check the neighborhood, too. The place might not be worth it even as a vacant lot. (Crime, Superfund sites, next door to a rendering plant, ...)

BTW, my parents' house used to have a rendering plant to the west and a refinery to the east. At least you always knew which way the wind was blowing. Cheesy

- NF
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 07:01:34 AM
Here's the bldg


Quote
next door to a rendering plant
Been there...  :barf:

This bldg is NOT next to a rendering plant. Cheesy
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 07, 2006, 08:02:44 AM
cfabe- I think your Plan B sounds much better. The property sounds like a money pit with little or no promise of return. I have also found that rehabs and existing buildings are not selling as well since my area is saturated with cheap, newly constructed houses.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 07, 2006, 08:17:35 AM
If that pic is slowing anybody down too much tell me and I'll delete it.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 07, 2006, 09:15:25 AM
Went to look at the property today, it's basically a valley floor with a medium size stream in it, hillsides up about 20 feet on either side of the property (great shooting backstop!) There is a possible building site up on the high land on one of the hills, and also a possible building site down closer to the creek. Having the house down by the creek would be nice because the hillside blocks all views of neighbors. I need to figure out if the data exists for max possible flood level for this creek or not. The visible high water mark was still well below the 'lower' building site. What kind of person would be the right guy to consult on something like this? I want someone who can tell me with a good degree of certianty if you build a house in this location, it won't get flooded and the hillside won't collapse on it. Like an engineering geologist or something... I'll put up some more pictures tonight.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on March 07, 2006, 10:03:51 AM
Hydrologist.

- NF
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 07, 2006, 02:12:33 PM
I've got some pictures of the property, including an arial photo with 2-foot topo lines.

Arial photo: http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/g5_STIMEY506852363749.jpg.html

Pics of property (mostly trees and creek): http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 07, 2006, 04:51:06 PM
Check with your county about flood maps. I believe they're required to have them for anything that qualifies as a stream (as opposed to a storm water route).
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 08, 2006, 12:56:44 AM
Nice looking piece of property!

"Hydrologist", thanks NF, that's the exact person I need to talk to. There's a brook on the bldg property. I think I might be able to dig an artificial pond to hold the water. It could double as a heat sink for the geothermal heat pumps.

Cheesy
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 08, 2006, 03:38:50 AM
The property is not within 100-yr floodplain, those maps are avavilable online. Does that mean the creek will never flood? I have a feeling I should do more homework than 'is on county map/is not on county map.'

How would I go about finding a hydrologist? Open the phonebook? Ask the county?
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 08, 2006, 04:08:01 AM
Phonebook I'd say.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Bogie on March 08, 2006, 04:08:33 AM
On the 1200 square foot minimum bit...

Make it bigger. You don't have to make it significantly more expensive. Too many houses have dinky bedrooms, etc., and that really hurts them. If you're able to do your own interior work, you're set right there. Drywall, floors, etc... If you're putting it on a slab (I'd prefer a basement...), tile is easy. Think radiant or environmentally friendly stuff too. If that stream has enough throughput, consider a small hydro setup. Lower energy bills and tax advantages.
 
If you're good with tools, you can put together a NICE kitchen for about 10% of what you'd spend on the pre-built cabinets. Likewise for other areas of the house - built-in bookcases, closet areas, etc., are so much easier when there's nothing there.

If you design it so that it can easily "stretched" with an addition, that's a plus too... I'd like to build onto my house here, but the dang gas line is right where I'd like to put it...
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 08, 2006, 04:13:02 AM
I just checked the phone book here for hydrologists. None, zip, nada. So yea, ask the county or local officials.

Was the topo the RED square? if so that ridge in the lower  right corner looked nice.

Good luck!
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 08, 2006, 04:13:57 AM
No, it doesn't mean that the creek will never flood.

All the 100 year flood plain means is that, on average, every 100 years there will be a flood to that level.

The Susquehanna River in the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, area had, IIRC, either 4 or 5 400 year floods in the 1900s, 3 of them during the 1930s.



Here's a link on the FEMA page that tells you how you can find access to local floodmaps...

http://www.fema.gov/fhm/hm_main.shtm#4
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 08, 2006, 05:33:15 AM
Yes, the property was bounded by the red square in the topo. There is a suitable building site on top of that ridge, the problem is getting a driveway up the steep hillside. Building in the 'lower' area would be more attractive because the hillsides block the view of the subdivision to the east, which is visible in winter. When I went out there last time my mental image of where the lot lines were was wrong, and I only found one corner pin, so I'm heading back out tonight for a second look.

As for the house, I was considering a smaller 2-bedroom house on a full basement, walkout hopefully, designed with a future addition to a 4-bedroom. I can do all the interior finish, electrical and plumbing, and heating too if I go with radiant and don't need sheetmetal work. For the house frame I'm considering a SIP kit.

I would definately consider some type of micro-hydro from the stream, and also possibly using the stream as a heat sink for a geothermal heatpump.

I'm going to try to make contact with the county soil and water conservation disctict people.

With all the hillside on the lot there's also the possibility of a partially earth-bermed house.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 08, 2006, 06:48:51 AM
The only problems with using the stream as a heat sink for a geothermal...

Chances are you'd never get permission to do it from Ohio's version of the EPA.

Second, a drough could rob you of your ability to cool your home.

If you want to go geothermal, ground mass is MUCH more preferable.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 08, 2006, 09:45:30 AM
Good point about the drought.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 08, 2006, 04:13:10 PM
Possible building sites:
http://www.fabiens.org/gallery/v/chris/cedar/building+sites.jpg.html

1 - this is where the previous owner was going to build, it's about 8 feet above the water level, but it has some visibility to the neighbors to the sides. His septic plan was to use two conventional tanks and then pump the effluent approx 800 feet horiz and 20 feet up to site 3 to normal leech fields. That's the only place the soils would permit leech fields.  At this site I am concerned about erosion from the stream long term. I suppose that could be fixed later if it became a problem.

2 - This site is totally private. It is only about 4 feet above the water level. I think it would probably need fill to raise the level. The road noise is noticably reduced compared to site 1. Longer driveway to build and maintain though.

3 - High and dry. Visibility to the subdivision houses. Looses the feel of being near the stream. Has a view overlooking the low area. Really long drive and have to cut it into the hillside, probably expensive.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: doczinn on March 08, 2006, 04:19:57 PM
Go with option two. The slight extra expense and trouble will be worth it. You know I'm right.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 08, 2006, 05:13:17 PM
Location 2 is only 4 foot above water table?

At only 4 foot above the water table, you're going to need (I'm not familiar with Ohio's DEP regulations for septic systems, but they are generally the same through much of the country) you'll need at LEAST 4 more feet of fill dirt over an area large enough to handle your septic requirements.

As for the previous owner's septic plans, all I can say is wow. That's an expensive plan.

Well, let's face it. All of the options are damned expensive.

Given the choice between a long driveway and a long septic pump out, I'd pick the long driveway in a heartbeat.

Nothing is worse than having your septic system clog up over a long holiday weekend and flood your yard or your house, or both.

Given all of the parameters of that lot, though, I'd probably be inclined to look seriously at buidling site 2, and not go for a basement, but go for 3 full stories above ground.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 08, 2006, 05:26:10 PM
I'm referring to the level of the water in the stream this afternoon. I don't know what the water table underground is. Is it the same?
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 08, 2006, 07:39:11 PM
"I'm referring to the level of the water in the stream this afternoon. I don't know what the water table underground is. Is it the same?"

Ok. Now I get it.

No, it's normally not the same.

The water table could be inches below the ground, or it could be yards below ground.

You'll be required to have a minimum offset between the leachate field on your septic system and the stream bed, and also a minimum offset between the bottom of your leachate field and the average high water table.

The requirements you can get from your local code office, while the water table information can come from any of a number of source, from digging test pits to the code office to a hydrological engineer.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: cfabe on March 09, 2006, 04:40:14 AM
I got a copy of the soil report the owner had done. Locations 1 and 2 are mostly Orrville Silt Loam, which is described as follows:

This is a deep, nearly level, somewhat poorly drained soil on flood plains. It is frequently flooded for very brief to brief periods in fall, winter, and spring. Slopes are 0 to 2 percent. The water table is between depths of 12 and 30 inches in winter and spring and during other extended wet periods. Permeability is moderate. Runoff is slow. The root zone is deep, and the available water capacity is high. Reaction is strongly acid to slightly acid in the surface layer and subsoil, except where lime has been added. The shrink-swell potential is low.

This soil is unsuited as a site for buildings, septic tank absorption fields and most recreation uses because of the flooding hazard and seasonal wetness. During the drier part of the year this soil is suited to some recreation uses, hiking, for example. The use of dikes to control flooding is difficult. Local roads and streets can be improved by using fill to raise the road above the flooding level and a suitable base material to reduce the damage from frost action. Sloughing is a hazard in excavations.

Is this telling me what I should have known already? Don't build a house in a low area next to a stream?

Can you never build a basement under the water table, or does it just mean you need a drainage system, sump pumps, etc?
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 09, 2006, 05:19:37 AM
"Is this telling me what I should have known already?"

Pretty much.

A 1 to 3 foot subsurface water table will never be approved for a septic field unless you elevate it. To properly elevate it (based on what I'm remembering from helping my father design septic fields, he's a civil engineer), you'd need an area between 1,000 to 3,000 square feet for your leachate field, which will need to be X feet above the high ground water level. The X feet is determined by your local/state code, but 6 feet (IIRC) is a pretty common figure.

So, based on those seat of my pants figures, you'd need a minimum of 6 feet of fill over top of the ground (have to bury your pipes by about 1 foot) over an area of 1,000 to 3,000 square feet.

That's a fair amount of fill, and it's also unsightly as all hell if it's next to or in view of your house.


Here's a good link on elevated sand mound requirements... http://www.age.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/f/F164.pdf


As for basements below the water table, yes, you certainly can build a basement below the water table. It is, however, a big pain in the ass, and generally a lot more expensive because you have to take a lot more steps to ensure the watertight integrity of the walls and floor, and provide for adequate drainage.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Guest on March 09, 2006, 05:54:12 AM
280plus- I bailed out of CT a long time ago. Grew up in rural CT and watched my home town turn into yuppieville. Now I am watching the place I have lived in for 20 years go the same route. Maybe it's time to find a rundown little midwestern town and set up shop there.  I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: K Frame on March 09, 2006, 05:58:50 AM
"I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so."

You can. Visit your local thrift shop or Goodwill and go clothes shopping.
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: charby on March 09, 2006, 06:09:29 AM
Quote from: tokugawa
280plus- I bailed out of CT a long time ago. Grew up in rural CT and watched my home town turn into yuppieville. Now I am watching the place I have lived in for 20 years go the same route. Maybe it's time to find a rundown little midwestern town and set up shop there.  I wish I could transport myself back to 1960 or so.
Same thing happening in the Midwest too, unless you want to be a lot miles away from basic necessities: grocery stores, retail stores, etc. Anything with in a comfortable drive, up to 1 hour of a urban like area is being developed and yuppified. I live 17 miles from where I work and a complete piece of *expletive deleted*it house (700-1000 sq ft) in a meth users part of town that needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt it going for at least 60k, this is on a narrow lot, no garage and within 2 blocks of a railway (Union Pacific) that has trains every 15-20 minutes around the clock.

The new homes in the nice yuppie parts of town, 17 miles from Ames, 45 miles from DSM are starting at $200k, but the norm is $300-350k.

The scary part is it is much cheaper to rent a house than it is to buy one right now where I live.

C
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: 280plus on March 09, 2006, 06:51:50 AM
Yup, I went back to Scranton, PA after 25 years to find it had turned into a bedroom community for yuppies from Philly. No real work there. Some of the areas were REALLY depressed.

The wife and I just spent $25,000 on a raised septic system. The bottom of the diverter boxes had to be 3" above the pre-existing grade. I'd say $15,000 of that was fill and sand.

Fortunately our yard had an incline so now it's flat back to about 3/4 of the way.

I know where the easiest place to dig a foxhole is if the SHTF though! Just not to DEEP of a foxhole. shocked

Cheesy
Title: Builder/House People: Is this salvagable? (pics)
Post by: Guest on May 14, 2006, 08:17:08 AM
Heh. Interesting difference in the advice between these two threads, isn't there?