Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ron on November 21, 2010, 07:11:33 PM
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U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/21/INRG1GCFBT.DTL
How soon before we have a "swarm attack" here in the states?
Will the terrorists be savvy enough to choose targets in states without concealed carry?
Are concealed carrying citizens even a threat to terrorists?
Are we really (institutionally) not preparing for this?
After 9/11 I saw this as the logical progression, that is what caused me to start exercising my latent desire to own and become proficient with firearms and become an advocate of the 2nd amendment.
I ran hot for quite a few years but truth be told finances have put my weekly training on hold for the last couple years. I'm too embarrassed to admit the last time I even fired a shot.
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U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock...
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I'd point out that Mumbai wasn't prepared, either.
Hell, downtown Kabul, A-stan isn't "ready" for attacks... either from Taliban sympathizers attacking American/coalition forces, or American/coalition forces attacking Taliban sympathizers.
No one is "ready" for random assault rifle wielding wackos to jump out of the woodwork and start shooting.
CCW permittees don't train for it. They train for direct physical confrontational threat along the lines of muggings, rapes and home invasions... situations where once 1-2 bad guys are shot, it's time to let the adrenaline die down and to surrender the scene of the shooting to the authorities.
Rapid response to Mumbai-style terror attacks is the realm of the warrior.
For every one hundred men you send us,
Ten should not even be here.
Eighty are nothing but targets.
Nine of them are real fighters;
We are lucky to have them, they the battle make.
Ah, but the One. One of them is a Warrior.
And he will bring the others back.
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Asian group-think mindset and remnants of the British policing mentality left over from colonialism left India less prepared than the U.S. IMO.
Many P.D.'s have M4's/AR-15's or at least shotguns in patrol cars.
And people with pistol permits have stopped or interrupted/deterred attacks over in Israel. A few suicide bombers, and one or two cases of guys trying to go crazy with trucks or construction equip. to run people over in crowded streets/markets etc.
Would it be a bloodbath? Yeah. Of course.
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My money is on them waiting until the Federal Government tells us proles to STFU about airport security.
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Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.
People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.
Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.
I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.
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I don't know, In that position I might take my chances with artillery rather than a pack of Ovcharkas too.
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A bit off-topic, but are we no longer adhering to the "no copyrighted material" in our OP's? This article even says that they don't want you redistributing it.
U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks
John Arquilla
San Francisco Chronicle November 21, 2010 04:00 AM Copyright San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
......
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Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.
People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.
Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.
I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.
We have hundreds of thousands of people crossing out border every year. Easy way for a cell to make their way here. As long as they're not on a watch list already, they'll probably just get tossed back across the border.
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A bit off-topic, but are we no longer adhering to the "no copyrighted material" in our OP's? This article even says that they don't want you redistributing it.
What part of the article is being distributed here? Where is the copyright infringement?
The title of the article and some questions it raised in my mind are in the OP. The link is to its original source.
The reason articles are written and published are for others to read. I'm facilitating that end by providing a link, without reproducing any of the material.
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Look how inept and stupid most terrorists are.
People talk about the few very successful attacks, people forget how often the terrorists get a boot in their face.
Israel had not had a suicide bombing for years now. That's not because Israelis are uber, it's because terrorists are human failures.
I've read recently a book by Russia's Gen. Troshev. He recounts a story of how his men were dealing with a group of Wahhabis holed up in dug-out positions in a forest. One of his subordinate had the bright idea of getting several dozen dogs and running them towards the Wahhabis. Turned out the terrorists fear dogs on a level of tribal prejudice, and they broke and ran. So they chased them out into the open and brought artillery down on their heads.
Do you think there's been a selection effect at work? That the number of people willing to die for the cause has been winnowed, so they're now scraping the bottom of the barrel?
IIRC, I've seen some articles how the terrorists over there have been resorting to tactics like finding people who are mentally retarded, or extremely socially disaffected to carry out suicide attacks. Or holding some random innocent person's family hostage and forcing them to carry out the attack.
In the relative safety and luxury of America, finding such people may be even harder, and getting them into a group to carry out a coordinated attack nigh impossible unless you import them, and then you run into the problem of finding people competent enough to smuggle or immigrate successfully. Which is a part of why 9/11 took so long, and was in planning preparation for nearly a decade.
I kind of wonder if the cells in America that exist are groups all talking, meeting, planning, with the unspoken elephant in the room that none of them actually want to do it. And the alphabet agencies nab them when the communications and planning rise to the criminal level, and they've exhausted any further intel benefit that further surveillance has.
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IMO, the larger the group, the harder for them to pull off something like that without tipping someone off or making someone suspicious.
That said, haven't we had small scale versions such as the guy walking into a shopping mall or Church and trying to shoot a bunch of people?
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IMO, the larger the group, the harder for them to pull off something like that without tipping someone off or making someone suspicious.
That said, haven't we had small scale versions such as the guy walking into a shopping mall or Church and trying to shoot a bunch of people?
Yes, but that's lone gunmen.
The closest we have nowadays is drug/gang related gunfights between law enforcement and criminals. Those seem to be LEO-instigated though, by trapping the drug/gang criminals in a surveillance net and attempting an arrest of the group.
Random mass attacks against random populace... we're not ready for and I doubt any country anywhere will ever be or has ever been ready for it.
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Unprepared in what way? What is it that you want police or the govt to do? Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side? I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?
What you are talking about is basically military action. We are as well prepared as any country is. Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace. The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.
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How does one predict the unpredictable?......
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How does one predict the unpredictable?......
If it is truly unpredictable, then our intelligence assets have severely dropped the ball.
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iirc one of the SCOTUS Justices specifically mentioned a Mumbai attack as a reason for the 2A.
I think they know an attack is inevitable-where/when is the question.
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Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side?
They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough :mad:
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They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough :mad:
I wouldn't put it past this administration, and then others to continue it.
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Unprepared in what way? What is it that you want police or the govt to do? Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side? I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?
What you are talking about is basically military action. We are as well prepared as any country is. Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace. The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.
Very true.
Other than some institutional policy that when there's tons of shooting in a public space, GTF-over there ASAP, and start shooting back, so the officers feel confident and feel no need to dither about backup or orders from on-high, I don't see much of what else can be done either.
And AFAIK, post-Columbine, we've gotten that policy in place in most LEA's.
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After the terrists shoot up a mall, they'll start strip-searching all the shoppers looking for hidden AK-47s ;/
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Unprepared in what way? What is it that you want police or the govt to do? Do you want Homeland security to start doing body scans and enhanced pat downs on the road side? I would like to know what you think we should change to become "prepared"?
What you are talking about is basically military action. We are as well prepared as any country is. Our police are generally well armed (at least minimally) and most states have an armed populace. The only thing I might want to improve is the concealed and open carry laws in various states.
I want the government to start openly advocating (in a gentle and subtle way), concealed carry in public places. Start encouraging businesses to remove their "no guns allowed" signs.
If the FBI/DHS or local PD showed up at the next IPSC/3gun/USPSA shoot and made it a point to target the PROFICIENT shooter community and engage them in teamwork oriented preparedness... that would go a long way. The local DHS field office asking for increased concealed carry in workplaces and shopping centers would remove a lot of apprehension from HR departments over CCW in the workplace.
By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers. However, CCW-type people tend to be sober in public, excellent witnesses, reactive to danger (rather than stumps) and they shoot better than most of the public. Competitors who also CCW tend to eclipse police accuracy when it comes to hits on target. It would be nice to see our government acknowledge the purpose of the 2A and the potential efficacy (both in real efficacy in a shoot as well as efficacy as a deterrent) of the modern populace/militia.
I mean "the ideal way we (Government/police) want YOU as a CCW permitee to respond to a multiple active shooter event like Mumbai." Perhaps even incorporating such ideas into shoot scenarios for IPSC/USPSA/3gun/whatever competitions.
A modern-day revival of the DCM.
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They will start doing that just as soon as they can arrange an event to scare the people enough :mad:
Arranged? Doubt it. But clearly expect the 4th Amendment to be tossed to the wayside if the people are "scared" enough.
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By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers.
Why not?
Israel has - at several factories/plants - 'readiness squads' composed of local employees, and an arms locker with M16 rifles loaned from the Army. Why can such a thing not exist at a shopping mall or a factory if you are that worried?
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An anti-terr DCM sorta thing... Huh.
I like it, but you're dreaming.
If you look at the cluster-fark that the FFDO program turned into, pilots entrusted with hundreds of lives, and now post 9/11, are now regarded as flying bombs, and all the hoops they have to jump through just to carry an HK pistol on their belt while flying... it's.. never... gonna... happen.
Although I think you know this as well as I.
An America, or just a fed.gov with the actual balls to do such a thing would be inhabiting a world that's vastly different from the one we have today there might not be any such thing as Islamic terrorisim. Probably one with no Cold War because we took Patton's advice and rolled on the Soviets the instant Germany surrendered, a Nationalist China instead of a Communist one because we took McArthur's advice and nuked them over the Korean war, and no middle east oil politics because every neighborhood has it's own mini thorium reactor...
And we have Mars bases and whatnot.
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I'm not necessarily advocating this. I understand there would be legal issues surrounding this solution. But look: Israel is part of the same civilization. It suffers from the same social ills and handicaps America has. And it's far, far more anti-gun than most European countries. In America it would be legal for a security company to just buy a dozen rifles and put them in a locker somewhere on-premises.
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Why not?
Israel has - at several factories/plants - 'readiness squads' composed of local employees, and an arms locker with M16 rifles loaned from the Army. Why can such a thing not exist at a shopping mall or a factory if you are that worried?
But but, then the responding police might be confused! Better the hide and be a good witness later.
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Arranged? Doubt it. But clearly expect the 4th Amendment to be tossed to the wayside if the people are "scared" enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253#Pre-boarding_event
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But what you sound like you're advocating, micro, is a bunch of long-guns in "fire extinguisher" style access lockers.
"Break glass in case of Jihad."
That won't fly here. Random public access to M4/M16 rifles won't fly.
Concealed pistols do seem to do okay over here, though.
A couple ounces of proper coaching and a reasonable degree of official support FOR the armed populace would destroy any idea of domestic terrorism against America's soft underbelly.
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I'm not necessarily advocating this. I understand there would be legal issues surrounding this solution. But look: Israel is part of the same civilization. It suffers from the same social ills and handicaps America has. And it's far, far more anti-gun than most European countries. In America it would be legal for a security company to just buy a dozen rifles and put them in a locker somewhere on-premises.
Insurance policy and tort law varies greatly amongst the wide array of nations that loosely define "Western Civ." and there's not always a complete correlation between their socialist and free-market tendencies either.
Honestly, I'd be flabbergasted if anywhere but an existing paramilitary/security group, or gun-store could ever have such an arrangment. And even then, it's obviously somewhat redundant due to the nature of the business and their work already.
And I'm not sure that even the most pro-gun among us would entrust such an arrangement amongst the low-end service-sector employees of malls and stadium ticket-takers/consessioniers who'd really be the prime target areas.
Your geographic realities, and the nature of your history within the LIVING MEMORY of your people makes for a certain sense of pragmatism on the matter I think. A reality of which the U.S. has not dealt since 1812*.
*Or at least in 100 years if you count Pancho Villa.
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That won't fly here. Random public access to M4/M16 rifles won't fly.
I don't think the idea would be much degraded if they had pistols, or any other weapon. The point is, in my mind, to select a subgroup of trusted individuals who are trained together to react during an emergency. THe individuals are not just anybody, but a subgroup of employees selected for the purpose. Also, these groups also maintain a special group at their plant or facility with aerial photographs, plans, and other equipment that they provide to law enforcement personnel once they arrive on the location, to help deal with an active shooter scenario or any other emergency.
The training and preparedness would be worth more in this scenario than the value of having an M.
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Micro, you are missing the point =)
How would something like you describe allow the gunverment to have more control over the peasants? :P
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I want the government to start openly advocating (in a gentle and subtle way), concealed carry in public places. Start encouraging businesses to remove their "no guns allowed" signs.
If the FBI/DHS or local PD showed up at the next IPSC/3gun/USPSA shoot and made it a point to target the PROFICIENT shooter community and engage them in teamwork oriented preparedness... that would go a long way. The local DHS field office asking for increased concealed carry in workplaces and shopping centers would remove a lot of apprehension from HR departments over CCW in the workplace.
By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers. However, CCW-type people tend to be sober in public, excellent witnesses, reactive to danger (rather than stumps) and they shoot better than most of the public. Competitors who also CCW tend to eclipse police accuracy when it comes to hits on target. It would be nice to see our government acknowledge the purpose of the 2A and the potential efficacy (both in real efficacy in a shoot as well as efficacy as a deterrent) of the modern populace/militia.
I mean "the ideal way we (Government/police) want YOU as a CCW permitee to respond to a multiple active shooter event like Mumbai." Perhaps even incorporating such ideas into shoot scenarios for IPSC/USPSA/3gun/whatever competitions.
A modern-day revival of the DCM.
What you're advocating there is a libertarian society as the founders envisioned it. But you're forgetting that Homoland inSecurity thinks that we're the enemy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253#Pre-boarding_event
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So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?
Because there are no American and Euorpean born and educated members of terrorist groups?
Remember, Osama comes from a wealth family and is college educated. It wouldn't be a stretch for a terrorist handler or handler from a foriegn government that doesn't like us very much to bribe and con to get the underwear bomber onto an airplane.
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I like AZRedHawk's idea, but I don't think the current Govt Buearocracy would allow it. They are too mired in the idea that the govt has to do everything and any citizen that actually takes action is a vigilante.
IMO, if the govt just offered free training or subsidized training directly or through tax breaks it would go a long way. Official support for concealed carry and ordinary citizens taking action would be great.
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I like AZRedHawk's idea, but I don't think the current Govt Buearocracy would allow it. They are too mired in the idea that the govt has to do everything and any citizen that actually takes action is a vigilante.
IMO, if the govt just offered free training or subsidized training directly or through tax breaks it would go a long way. Official support for concealed carry and ordinary citizens taking action would be great.
There are enough people that would even take a paid course.
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Honestly, if every mall in America had to put in a Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse, a Harbor Freight, and provide adequate couches/lounge space in the common areas with TV's tuned to ESPN and Fox News, that might solve it right there.
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Honestly, if every mall in America had to put in a Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse, a Harbor Freight, and provide adequate couches/lounge space in the common areas with TV's tuned to ESPN and Fox News, that might solve it right there.
lol.
My local mall has a Dick's Sporting Goods and a Best Buy as anchor stores. And, Sears is at the other end. It ain't quite Home Depot or Harbor Freight, but it has tools.
On a more serious thread-drift-tangent... how would you go about pitching the idea of Fed LEO field offices partnering with local shooting clubs, to the feds or to the clubs?
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how would you go about pitching the idea of Fed LEO field offices partnering with local shooting clubs, to the feds or to the clubs?
Same way that I would get Santa Claus a date with the Tooth Fairy ;/
So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?
Well, it sure was a damn convenient excuse to roll out the porno-scanners :mad:
No question though that there are plenty of furriners that want to kill Americans, which is really handy sometimes.
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So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?
I'd think it more like the FedGov had knowledge of the attack but let it happen either out of incompetence or darker plans....kinda like what happened with the ATF and Oklahoma City....ATF wanted to catch McVeigh in the act of planting the bomb but messed up terribly....then ATF covered up the mistake...
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out of incompetence
Well considering the Panty bomber was on the no fly list.....
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Well considering the Panty bomber was on the no fly list.....
That worked out well, didn't it?
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Mumbai-like shootings in the US = 0 so far. Mass shootings by American high school and college kids, postal workers, etc. = ? a bunch. I'm thinking we should just take care of our own butts.
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Mumbai-like shootings in the US = 0 so far. Mass shootings by American high school and college kids, postal workers, etc. = ? a bunch. I'm thinking we should just take care of our own butts.
There was the DC PotShooter
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There was the DC PotShooter
And Major Hassan. And the Little rock recruiting center.
And then there is the New York attempted bombing. Lets not forget the first WTC attack, either.
For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting#Reports_on_Terrorism
On Sept 10, 2010, the Bipartisan Policy Center released the report "Assessing the Terrorist Threat" which concluded that "in 2009 at least 43 American citizens or residents aligned with Sunni militant groups or their ideology were charged or convicted of terrorism crimes in the U.S. or elsewhere, the highest number in any year since 9/11". They included Fort Hood and the 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting as the two successful terrorist attacks, even though neither case has been prosecuted as such
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For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. ;)
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For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.
I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?
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I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?
BECAUSE NINE-ELEVEN! NINE-ELEVEN!
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I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?
Because police officers and sheriffs' deputies know better than to grab an innocent person's crotch.
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Very true.
Other than some institutional policy that when there's tons of shooting in a public space, GTF-over there ASAP, and start shooting back, so the officers feel confident and feel no need to dither about backup or orders from on-high, I don't see much of what else can be done either.
And AFAIK, post-Columbine, we've gotten that policy in place in most LEA's.
You mean like how everyone hung out outside the buildings at VT and had the time to get their pretty little tac vests and helmets out of the closet and put them on? One twerp with a Glock and no one student, faculty, or LE actively engaged him. That idiot could have been solved with a J-Frame, or if you were feeling blessed, a good knife. Heck, he could have been bum-rushed. Dying trying is better than standing there and bleeding.
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I thought he chained some of the doors?
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I thought he chained some of the doors?
Yes, he chained the doors to the classroom building. But nobody knew that till SWAT had assembled, stacked and tried to rush the doors. Then they had to go look for something to cut the chains with.
For a very brief moment there was some effort to teach elementary-school aged kids to throw books at and bum-rush the armed intruder. Apparently some adult then figured out that teaching the kids how to take down an armed assailant might transfer to taking down a not-popular teacher/administrator so the program died.
Huddle up, folks. Just like the fishies in the center, you can lessen the chance that YOU will be killed even though someone is going to buy the farm.
stay safe.
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Yes, he chained the doors to the classroom building. But nobody knew that till SWAT had assembled, stacked and tried to rush the doors. Then they had to go look for something to cut the chains with.
We all carry Hooligan tools in our cruisers for just such a contingency.
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You mean like how everyone hung out outside the buildings at VT and had the time to get their pretty little tac vests and helmets out of the closet and put them on? One twerp with a Glock and no one student, faculty, or LE actively engaged him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu
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I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?
I had to go to two interviews in a federal building earlier this year (but didn't get the job ;/ ) and they had the whole security thing.
But the US Marshalls were actually polite and professional about the whole thing.
(something about being armed and polite ??? =) )
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I had to go to two interviews in a federal building earlier this year (but didn't get the job ;/ ) and they had the whole security thing.
But the US Marshalls were actually polite and professional about the whole thing.
(something about being armed and polite ??? =) )
Did they touch your body at all?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu
Memory fades. I'm pretty sure we talked about that guy here too. The point remains, slightly altered. One guy resisted. Purely defensive and quite heroic. It is what leaders should do. Two others were killed attempting to barricade their room doors. Several rooms were successfully barricaded and no one was killed. . Now what if policy had not restricted him or his adult students from carry? 32 killed, 25 wounded by one idiot. Defensive tactics like barricading didn't stop 30 people from being killed. Offense was unavailable and apparently not in anyone's mind. We're not ready for a Mumbai or Beslan. No one else, young, fit and at close range fought back???? The idiot killed two people several hours earlier and life on the campus went on as normal outside the crime scene tape? That is a peacetime mentality, dead people, no shooter and there is no mass alert?
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Did they touch your body at all?
No, they just did the wand thing when the metal detector kept going off.
Apparently, there were metal stays in my knee brace.
The outfit (private contractor working in-house) said that once you get your ID badge, you can walk right through and ignore all the beeping. So I guess I could carry whatever I wanted into there =|