Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Fly320s on January 10, 2011, 11:16:14 PM
-
The discussions regarding the assaults and murders of many people in Arizona lead to this thread: http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=27711.0 (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=27711.0) That thread really got me worked up about magazine capacities and the possibilities of another gun/mag/assault rifle ban. I have to add that I despise the term "assault rifle." That is like saying "assault tire iron."
In that thread, French G wrote this: The 33rd stick is my default choice when I am on the road, want to defend my family, and a rifle is inconvenient.
The bold highlight is mine.
My purpose here is to illustrate the simple, basic fact that in a life-or-death situation more is better. More is better. Have you ever imagined yourself in a fight for your life? Or in a fight to save your family's or friend's life? If you haven't, do so now. So, to help you imagine this, there you are facing down a crazed pyschopath who's only goal is to kill you so that he can then kill your family. Given any choice, what would you like to defend yourself with? Handgun, rifle or shotgun? Screw those ideas! I want battalions of highly-trained Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, and mean-old Marines. Why should I limit myself to a freaking Glock, even if it does have a 33-round magazine? Or an AR with a 30-round mag? The obvious problem is that I can't realistically expect that kind of help in a personal defense situation. So, I start working down the list of realistic ideas: A company-size group of warriors? No. A squad? No. Me with the biggest, highest-capacity weapon that I can proficiently wield? Bingo. For me, that is an SBR AR15 with a 30-round magazine. For some, the best option may be a Glock with a 33-round magazine. Anyone who would dare to restrict access to the best available tool for self defense for an individual has no business as a member of a free society.
Which is pretty much where we stand today. But, thanks to the morons in Washington, we may be faced once again with even fewer optons. That Glock with the 33-round magazine might soon become that Glock with the 10-round magazine. And those oh-so-fun-and-handy ARs might become those oh-so-illegal-ARs. Some people just don't understand the idea of personal defense and how the 2nd Amendment protects that. Some people think that because some jackwagon psycho in Arizona kills a bunch of people with a 30+ round magazine that all 30+ round magazines are evil and that the manufacturer should stop selling them right before congress bans them for life.
Listen people, you can not have too much ammo when you are fighting for your life. Bigger mag capacities means more time shooting and less time reloading. Less reloading means less chance of you fumbling the magazine or inducing a malfunction. Everything you can do to reduce your chance of screwing-up adds to your chances of winning the fight.
No matter what you hear or read about the second amendment and gun control, personal defense is the baseline, the default line, of how we should begin to think about restricting guns. If you wouldn't willingly restrict your own options for defending yourself or your family, don't even think about trying or allowing restricitons on someone else.
-
Not me. If you're not as
crotchety close-minded old realistic as I am in self defense expectations, then you don't deserve that stuff. Everyone who's been there done that knows that all you need to survive any self defense situation is a .38 snub. Everyone with doublestack wundernines and single stack .45's with cavernous maws of doom at the business end is just wishing they were ninjaswatoperators.
[/cynical mimicry of old fart rant]
That guy down in Tucson is exactly why I carry 18+1, plus a reload. And frankly makes me think about another reload. And a BuG that I can toss to another defender. And a secure radio link to the nearest Marine base. And a hacked PDA G4 uplink to that new experimental Air Force micro-shuttle all full of God Rods.
Crazy people suck. Whether they have 33 round Glock mags, or a pen to write legislation.
-
As a general principle I agree 100%. Personally, my choice has been a 6+1 capacity .45ACP compact pistol for away-from-home protection. At home, once I figure out a good, reasonably kid-proof set up I'll have a 20ga loaded with buck-shot made handy.
Be nice to have an AR or AK handy at home as well, but as I don't own either of those platforms the pistol and eventual shotgun will have to do for now.
-
Crazy people suck. Whether they have 33 round Glock mags, or a pen to write legislation.
Distilled insight.
As a general principle I agree 100%. Personally, my choice has been a 6+1 capacity .45ACP compact pistol for away-from-home protection. At home, once I figure out a good, reasonably kid-proof set up I'll have a 20ga loaded with buck-shot made handy.
Be nice to have an AR or AK handy at home as well, but as I don't own either of those platforms the pistol and eventual shotgun will have to do for now.
Compromise is a reality check.
-
At home, every gun that I know will function properly is loaded, ready to go (no kids to worry about).
Away from home, the standard is an autoloader with 2 reloads (regardless of capacity), just in case of failure. With a Seecamp in pocket...
-
We go several times a year for a week vacation, rent a house and such. If it is to anywhere south of my Virginia home I've taken to stuffing an AR-15 in the trunk with a few spare mags. I usually stuff the spare revolver in between the driver's seat and the console to avoid the impossibility of fishing out a holstered carry piece. I've gotten lax since moving out of the city, I used to think nothing of carry gun, 2 17rd reloads and a BUG. More is better.
-
We go several times a year for a week vacation, rent a house and such. If it is to anywhere south of my Virginia home I've taken to stuffing an AR-15 in the trunk with a few spare mags. I usually stuff the spare revolver in between the driver's seat and the console to avoid the impossibility of fishing out a holstered carry piece. I've gotten lax since moving out of the city, I used to think nothing of carry gun, 2 17rd reloads and a BUG. More is better.
Around home I obey rule #1. Usually that means toss the AR-15 in the front seat of the truck with me. I have stooped to taking my 1858 NMA on a quick run to town though. Must be that damn census data lulling me into complacency.
-
I merely carry a throwing star to deal with multiple assailants and hordes of ninja bear IRS auditors. I am so b-b-b-b-b-bad, it is all I need.
-
A Glock 17 with a 33rnd mag, and a Surefire x400 is part of our home defense/repel boarders gear.
Having a gun so equipped without needing to reload as often has some distinct advantages. It it allows you to shoot one handed in the event that you are carrying your child to saftey or pushing them out of the way. A weapon so equipped also allows you to go longer without a reload and needing use of your second hand. Additionally, having an effective one handed firearm is desirable in case you have a hand injured. (one of the most common gunfight injuries.)
I was a single stack and/or j-frame carrying guy for a good while. After some of the events in my neck of the woods, (Phoenix metro area) I realized that multiple assailants is a very real possibility. I have since moved to a Glock 17 with a reload and a 33rnd mag in my laptop and/or Diaper bag.
-
So, to help you imagine this, there you are facing down a crazed pyschopath who's only goal is to kill you so that he can then kill your family. Given any choice, what would you like to defend yourself with? Handgun, rifle or shotgun? Screw those ideas! I want battalions of highly-trained Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, and mean-old Marines.
Screw infantry! I want air and artillery support.
That's a bit unrealistic for home or personal defense, though, so I carry a 5-shot .357 and a couple reloads to get me to the car, where an 18+1 9mm and a couple more reloads for each gun wait, or at home, the closet, where a bigazz 12ga waits next to a pair of battle rifles.
-
Power armor.
Squish the closest attacker with the left waldo, and flick the leftover giblets at the next one while drilling them all with the PXL focused to 1cm for anti-personnel work. (Pulsed X-ray Laser)
If you leave it focused at 1mm for anti-armor, it'll go through way too many walls.
-
AJ, what are you talking about? A game?
-
AJ, what are you talking about? A game?
Sorry, I've said too much.
-
DUDE! You KNOW we're not supposed to mention that stuff to the civies!
-
I wouldn't be surprised if some new gun-control legislation is pushed through despite the new GOP Congress. But I think that the "new gun culture" (or Gun Culture 2.0, as Michael Bane calls them), those who primarily own guns for SD, will make any politician who supports new gun-control legislation pay a steep price at the polls. And, with Heller and McDonald, such laws will be swiftly challenged and tied up for at least a decade.....
Gonna be a bumpy ride ahead for everyone....
-
I wouldn't be surprised if some new gun-control legislation is pushed through despite the new GOP Congress. But I think that the "new gun culture" (or Gun Culture 2.0, as Michael Bane calls them), those who primarily own guns for SD, will make any politician who supports new gun-control legislation pay a steep price at the polls. And, with Heller and McDonald, such laws will be swiftly challenged and tied up for at least a decade.....
Gonna be a bumpy ride ahead for everyone....
I'd like to think that the new makeup of the congress will work in our favor this time. BUT, i have some niggling concerns that Boehner might want to make some kind of deal that gets rid of Obamacare in exchange form some "reasonable" concessions where guns are concerned.
-
This is why I don't get why many mouse guns don't have higher cap mags available. If I'm carrying my little gun, and I empty the first mag, I don't want 7 round back up mags. I want 10+ rounders.
I'm actually thinking about getting some 10 rounders for my 1911. Same thing, if I empty it, I don't care to only put 8 more in.
-
FA american 180s FTW
-
As far as I'm concerned, more secure is better than more. Kids. And I've never been accused of being the most organized person around. I don't carry--didn't want to fill out the app until I got my bar card, and now can't afford it--but when I do, it's gonna be something small, probably in .40 or .45 for daily wear and a tiny .38 for running.
If a mass-murderer starts shooting at my family, chances are some of us will die. I've made my peace with that. Life is dangerous.
-
My personal EDC is a 1911 w/ 3 8-rd mags total. 8+1 in the gun, and another 16 rds on the belt. 25 rounds total. Frankly, my plan is to avoid if possible, evade if necessary, then shoot if forced (and run like hell). That being said, my opinion is that most goblins (unless they are mentally deranged, or VERY highly trained) will turn and run when facing return fire. Especially if they see one or two of their buddies go down. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't seek retribution when numbers and surprise are in their favor, but that's a whole different set of tactics.
That's where the shotgun stoked w/ 00 and slugs comes in, as well as the Garand w/ several bandoleers of reloads.
-
When I was in the service, I did a bunch of training and shot a lot of rounds downrange.
Once, during a trench-clearing live-fire, we were shooting so much, so rapidly (1) folks' hand guards were melting, rounds would cook off in the chamber, and we had one chamber blow out.
We started off each iteration with, minimum, 210 rounds apiece and most packed more. It got shot up right quick. There were several iterations during the day & night. PM, water, reloading mags between iterations.
I was one of those who carried more than 210 rounds, as I had access to more magazines and didn't mind the weight so much.
These days, I doubt I'll clear trenches with anything but a spade. 210 rounds is not "a good start" but a number of rounds completely out of the realm of reasonable.
Compromise is a reality check.
I think this is where 320's comment comes in. Any CCW is a compromise.
If I had my druthers, I'd pack a shotgun & slugs or a self-loading rifle.
30+ round mags against some of my old buddies in armor toting M4A1s, SAWs, M240Bs, Gustavs, (all with a full combat load of ammo) & such would not be much more useful than a 1911 and a spare mag or any other CCW you can think of.
When it comes to CCW, we compromise functionality for concealability. Some want to pack more mass/gear in case they face multiple attackers. I, too, sometimes pack more gear/weight, but more as failure mitigation. The extra mag is if the mag in the weapon is faulty. My ankle or pocket-carry CCW is if my primary doesn't work for some reason.
I did, however, just get a new double mag-holder, so my on-board ammo for my SW1911 will bump from 17 (or 19 if I use my 10-rnd Wilson) to 25 (or 29 if I pack 2 spare 10-rnd Wilsons).
(1) M4A1 & other heavier-bbl M16 variants rated at something like 12-15 rounds/minute in sustained fire
-
DUDE! You KNOW we're not supposed to mention that stuff to the civies
At least he didn't mention the, ahh well, something to do with orbiting platforms.
-
GAAAAAHHHHH!!!
OPSEC PEOPLE, OPSEC!!!
-
---oops, wrong thread---
-
That being said, my opinion is that most goblins (unless they are mentally deranged, or VERY highly trained) will turn and run when facing return fire. Especially if they see one or two of their buddies go down.
Yep, at least in most cases I've ever hear of.
Had a couple/three hours to chat with Charl vanWike. He was the guy that shot back at the Marxist terrorists that attacked his church in South Africa right at the end of the apartheid era (St James Massacre for those that want to Google it). They had AK's (with da-switch), grenades, etc. There was IIRC 5 of them, plus a getaway driver or two. Charl was the only parishoner that was armed. All he had was a 5-shot snub nose .38. Didn't even have a re-load. Terrorists ran screaming like little girls when he shot back.
-
Crazy people suck. Whether they have 33 round Glock mags, or a pen to write legislation.
I'm gonna have to borrow this and spread it far and wide across Facebook if you don't mind.
-
And let's look at what's been going on lately.
How about the armed service guy and his wife coming out of the movie theater recently? several dozen attackers was the number he had to basically face alone for a while.
Then here in Milwaukee there was yet another mall disturbance comprised of a hundred or more little darlin' angels.
I won't feel great about only having 15 and two reloads.
And that'll only be once we get CC here in Wisconsin (soon very soon).
-
I was once telling my daughter-in-law that I have 27 rounds (13+1 and a spare 13) of ammo when carrying the Browning HiPower but only 15 if I have the 1911 on my belt.
"Why would you need so much?", she asked.
My answer was something like "I'd sure hate to need 16 shots when all I have is 15. Even if I never need 27, they're nice to have along."
My at-home car gun is the BHP with 2 spare mags - 40 rounds total. If I'm going to be far from home, a 16-inch AR is in the trunk, along with 5 or 6, 30-round mags (and maybe a few extra boxes of 20 rounds each).
jb
-
Riddle me this.
In numerous other shootings, people cowered in fear while gunmen calmly reloaded their weapons. 5, 10, or 33 round magazines don't matter much if nobody does anything to stop you.
It was only that several people took upon the gunman during his reload.
He could have calmly reloaded several times were it not for the actions of free citizens. I would have rather him be riddled with bullets after his first shots, but considering the level of sheepdom apparent across the land, even having people disarm him when his weapon ran dry is a step up from the normal.
-
I'm gonna have to borrow this and spread it far and wide across Facebook if you don't mind.
Feel free. Public forum, and all that.
Distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0 Generic License.
-
Yep, at least in most cases I've ever hear of.
Had a couple/three hours to chat with Charl vanWike. He was the guy that shot back at the Marxist terrorists that attacked his church in South Africa right at the end of the apartheid era (St James Massacre for those that want to Google it). They had AK's (with da-switch), grenades, etc. There was IIRC 5 of them, plus a getaway driver or two. Charl was the only parishoner that was armed. All he had was a 5-shot snub nose .38. Didn't even have a re-load. Terrorists ran screaming like little girls when he shot back.
Read his book.
-
Riddle me this.
In numerous other shootings, people cowered in fear while gunmen calmly reloaded their weapons. 5, 10, or 33 round magazines don't matter much if nobody does anything to stop you.
It was only that several people took upon the gunman during his reload.
He could have calmly reloaded several times were it not for the actions of free citizens. I would have rather him be riddled with bullets after his first shots, but considering the level of sheepdom apparent across the land, even having people disarm him when his weapon ran dry is a step up from the normal.
There are a lot of things wrong with this country.
There are a lot of things wrong with Arizona.
But one of the things that works right, in this State and several others like it, is people stand up when they're knocked down. You may catch them by surprise, but they'll catch up and do their damnedest to make it right. That includes gunfire.
-
Read his book.
+1
Would help if spelt right. Charl van Wyk, Shooting Back (http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Back-Right-Duty-Self-defense/dp/0979045118).
-
+1
Would help if spelt right. Charl van Wyk, Shooting Back (http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Back-Right-Duty-Self-defense/dp/0979045118).
Picky, picky. Been a while since I'd talked to him.
I do get the newsletter he sends out a few times a year. He was attacked by bandits while out trying to do his missionary work. Shot back at them too. He said witnesses indicated he'd hit at least one of them. Again, SEVERAL attackers ran screaming like little girls when ONE dude stands his ground and fights back.
Truth of the matter is that simply shooting back at all is, in the vast majority of cases, far more important than caliber, mag capacity, or even marksmanship. In the church attack, Charl hit 1 of the terrorists (non-life threatening wound) from a distance beyond what most of us would consider ideal for a snubbie .38. His other 4 shots totally missed. They still ran. In the bandit attack he had a "better" gun (don't remember but it was an auto-loader, so probably a 9x19 of some sort). No idea how many shots he fired, but again, only hit one attacker. They ran again.
The biggest issues are to A) Have a gun of any description, and B) Have the courage to stand up and actually shoot back. Even a lowly .38 snubbie with standard pressure ammo, and no reloads can be quite effective. More is better, sure. But not strictly necessary when dealing with cowards like Laughner, or common criminals, or even most terrorists. Determined, military trained/disciplined attackers are a different story of course.
-
That's very true. Most crime is an opportunistic path-of-least-resistance enterprise. (otherwise they'd work for a living) Something like 80-90% of all defensive use of firearms happen without so much as a shot fired.
However, the deterrence factor equation for someone who is personally bent on revenge, insane, or political/religious terrorism will be very different.
Jared Loughner, IMO, would only have been stopped by a CNS shot or a mobility-kill to the spine, pelvis, or arm.
-
I'm looking for a 20-or-more mag for my little Keltec p3at. (that might actually tame the recoil too)
I bought one 30-round mag (or maybe it's 32 or 33, I don't remember) for my BHP a few years ago. Wish I had bought several of them because I haven't seen any since.
-
Such a beast does not exist.
They do sell extended 9 round magazines though. http://keltecweapons.com/product/p3at-37-9rnd-magazine/
You'd have to buy two of them, saw the feed lips off the bottom one, get the grip extender and base-plate off the other, and braze them together. And also link the two springs together onto one follower. Or browse Wolf gunsprings site for something compatible that has enough lift to feed all the rounds.
You might get 16-18 rounds out of that.
After the whole exercise is done, not counting all your time to test fit, and make sure the inside is smooth and won't hang up on the joints in the metal etc., it's probably easier to just adapt to carrying a Glock 26, and carrying a spare Glock 17 magazine with the +2 extender floorplate.
-
I'm looking for a 20-or-more mag for my little Keltec p3at. (that might actually tame the recoil too)
I bought one 30-round mag (or maybe it's 32 or 33, I don't remember) for my BHP a few years ago. Wish I had bought several of them because I haven't seen any since.
I think something about 12-15 rounds for a backup mag for the P3AT would be about right. I'll take three or so when they come out.
-
I've thought about incorporating a BUG to my daily CCW routine. Even bought a MP 9C or could us the sig 380 I have. What stops me is my interactions with the POPO for the past several years. Mind you that all were traffic stops, most of which were of a fishing nature (last one was the night time seat belt enforcement crap). Explaining that I am a permit holder and armed is scary enough, when you play the lottery of which cop you are interacting with is cool or is an ass, explaining a BUG is asking for a long encounter IMO and a waste of my time on the side of the road. After this AZ shooting, the popo will be frothing at the mouth about "officer safety".
-
Depends on the state and po-po culture, BMOZ.
-
I agree. Finding a state and culture that won't harass you for doing something legally is another animal all together.
-
I agree. Finding a state and culture that won't harass you for doing something legally is another animal all together.
Is your home state a "must notify" state?
-
Yes it is. It wasn't that way to begin with. Arkansas a few years ago changed that. State police, who oversee the CCW permits, along with the legislature changed it from upon demand to shall notify. Sneaky process of putting the change in the back of the newspaper, buried within the bankruptcy filings. No one objected and bam, you shall notify.
One more reason we are about to move out of AR.
-
Texas is a "must notify" state, but I think the penalty is pretty weak. I have been asked what I carry before. The closest to harassment was a Metro cop in Houston who asked me to get out and show him where I carried, but he didn't disarm me. I was wearing a T-shirt and shorts and had a little Kahr P9 in a belly band high above my belt line. I think he just couldn't believe I was carrying.
-
a Metro cop in Houston who asked me to get out and show him where I carried
Wonder if he/she thought you were carrying 007 style :O
-
Michigan is a must notify state, first offense is a civil infraction with a $500 fine and a six month CPL suspension, any subsequent offense within three years of the first are $1,000 fines and result in your permit being revoked.
Most of the penalties for violating the terms of your CPL are quite harsh, some are felonies.
-
I'll research a list of states that do not require you to notify.
Right now we are looking at Arizona (northern) or New Mexico to move. Regardless, we are leaving AR, just waiting to see if I progress up the oilfield ladder, to choose a better place to take up residence.
-
Wonder if he/she thought you were carrying 007 style :O
OK, what is "007 style"? (maybe I don't want to know)
-
OK, what is "007 style"? (maybe I don't want to know)
Not a fan of the movies, but my understanding was that Bond had a special "behind the zipper" holster.
-
I'll research a list of states that do not require you to notify.
Right now we are looking at Arizona (northern) or New Mexico to move. Regardless, we are leaving AR, just waiting to see if I progress up the oilfield ladder, to choose a better place to take up residence.
North Dakota is (or was?) having a lot of new oilfield activity.
-
ND is growing, and will keep doing so if the enviro weenies stay out of it. Colorado and Utah have been destroyed since Salazar was sworn in. One of the first acts hd did was to cancel a ton of leases in UT and CO.
Currently I'm flying (really hate flying, scared to death hate) to and from California. Doing workover and completions.
-
Not a fan of the movies, but my understanding was that Bond had a special "behind the zipper" holster.
that's smartcarry (http://www.smartcarry.com/). [tinfoil] and i ain't seen it in a 007 movie yet. not read all the books though.
-
Not a fan of the movies, but my understanding was that Bond had a special "behind the zipper" holster.
Bond typically carried his PPK in a shoulder holster (a Berns-Martin shoulder holster, IIRC)....
Are you sure you're not thinking of his "other" gun?.... ;)