Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on April 14, 2011, 05:12:44 PM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42588547/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Weird... but gets weirder!
Bobo's 25-year-old brother told investigators he saw a man dragging her from the carport and toward a wooded area on Wednesday morning, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation said.
The brother said he witnessed the assault from inside the home, located in a rural area about 100 miles northeast of Memphis.
Officials said two 911 calls were made Wednesday morning, one by the brother and another by a woman policy did not identify.
He witnessed... from inside the home... his sister being dragged against her will through the carport.
I, on behalf of Men assembled, propose revocation of his Man Card for the remainder of his life. Men, according to bylaw 336.2(c) of the Universal Man Code, we are now required to convene and vote on the matter. A 3/5 majority is required to perform a lifetime ban on bearing a Man Card.
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Aye. [barf]
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I wonder if the brother was wheelchair-bound or otherwise somehow disabled such that he was unable to intervene. If not, I have to wonder why he did not respond appropriately.
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This might be her facebook page. Without an account, I can't see if there's any info on her brother. According to some other accounts, her mother was also watching the incident. One wonders why she didn't try to help, either.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Holly-Bobo/1494882246
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It is not sufficient for people to own arms, or even to have the right moral ideas to help.
People who are mentally and educationally unprepared for emergencies - lack the proper mindset and training - will often freeze up or be unable to decide what to do - and these situations happen in the space of minutes of seconds.
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It is not sufficient for people to own arms, or even to have the right moral ideas to help.
People who are mentally and educationally unprepared for emergencies - lack the proper mindset and training - will often freeze up or be unable to decide what to do - and these situations happen in the space of minutes of seconds.
I would react at gut level to something like that - first :mad: then :police: then >:D
Or maybe he didn't like his sister very much. or maybe he's only 8 yrs old ???
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Mr. Chairman -
I move that we delay the vote, in order that we may address both the question of revocation of the man card and the possible necessity of removal of the man parts as well.
I agree with the comments of both the esteemed members here assembled and the gentle readers of the local fishwrapper that there are questions as to why the brother merely observedand called 9-1-1. However, I now rise in possible defense of the brother's actions to note that he followed, to the letter, the advice and instruction invariably given by law enforcement - to observe in order to be a good witness, and then to call them so that "The Experts" can handle the situation. For as we all know, if a mere amatuer intervened there is a high possibility that one or more of the rights of the alleged abductor might have been violated.
I will now close with an abject apology for usurping the statements of the criminal defense attorneys and request that when they finish chasing ambulances they be allotted appropriate time to make their own eloquent pleas for consideration by the assembled members.
stay safe.
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This might be her facebook page. Without an account, I can't see if there's any info on her brother. According to some other accounts, her mother was also watching the incident. One wonders why she didn't try to help, either.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Holly-Bobo/1494882246
That's definitely her: the courtney jeffrys mentioned in the story is on her page.
How very sad for the family
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wow, pretty. did the bro ever explain why he couldn't go to her rescue?
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wow, pretty. did the bro ever explain why he couldn't go to her rescue?
Either he's in on it or he has a complete lack of balls. He SHOULD have attacked. If he couldn't save her, he should have died trying. It's a brother's duty.
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The whole "man in camo" bit strikes me as being a tad bit on the far side of "Well, there were these guys who weren't from the area around the university, and...."
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Either he's in on it or he has a complete lack of balls. He SHOULD have attacked. If he couldn't save her, he should have died trying. It's a brother's duty.
THIS.
I see you dragging one of my sisters off and I'm going all "VAHALLA AWAITS !!!" on your *expletive deleted*ss. I don't care how many of "you" there are.
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I see you dragging one of my sisters off and I'm going all "VAHALLA AWAITS !!!" on your *expletive deleted*ss.
If I see you dragging off one of my sisters, I'm going all "WTF?! Since when do I have a sister?"
Fortunately, I doubt it will distract me too much from popping the scope cover caps and closing the bolt.
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If I was law enforcement I would be taking a real close look at the brother and mother. What gives. Kind of like if two brothers are fighting. Let em fight because you step in both are going to beat your ass.
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Mr. Chairman -
I move that we delay the vote, in order that we may address both the question of revocation of the man card and the possible necessity of removal of the man parts as well.
I agree with the comments of both the esteemed members here assembled and the gentle readers of the local fishwrapper that there are questions as to why the brother merely observedand called 9-1-1. However, I now rise in possible defense of the brother's actions to note that he followed, to the letter, the advice and instruction invariably given by law enforcement - to observe in order to be a good witness, and then to call them so that "The Experts" can handle the situation be assured the dangerous part is over before they show up to write down what happened. For as we all know, if a mere amatuer intervened there is a high possibility that one or more of the rights of the alleged abductor might have been violated.
I will now close with an abject apology for usurping the statements of the criminal defense attorneys and request that when they finish chasing ambulances they be allotted appropriate time to make their own eloquent pleas for consideration by the assembled members.
stay safe.
FIFY
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This might be her facebook page. Without an account, I can't see if there's any info on her brother. According to some other accounts, her mother was also watching the incident. One wonders why she didn't try to help, either.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Holly-Bobo/1494882246
That's definitely her: the courtney jeffrys mentioned in the story is on her page.
How very sad for the family
I wonder who the dude in the camo hat is. . .
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If I was law enforcement I would be taking a real close look at the brother and mother. What gives. Kind of like if two brothers are fighting. Let em fight because you step in both are going to beat your ass.
Something doesn't smell right here. This does have the stink of, "runaway bride" stories, or "it was mom who killed the missing kids" etc. type of stories.
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Her boyfriend has already been investigated & supposedly alibis out.
My kids are 5 & 6 YO and already take up for each other.
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Something doesn't smell right here. This does have the stink of, "runaway bride" stories, or "it was mom who killed the missing kids" etc. type of stories.
Yup, Susan Smith springs to mind, instead of a black guy as the boogieman its camo guy.
I had two sisters though-my late sister ( RIP ) there were many times in my life I might have been tempted to not only watch but offer camo guy cash incentives.
My younger sister would get to see me get all Rambo and stuff.
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It is not sufficient for people to own arms, or even to have the right moral ideas to help.
People who are mentally and educationally unprepared for emergencies - lack the proper mindset and training - will often freeze up or be unable to decide what to do - and these situations happen in the space of minutes of seconds.
True . . . but in this case, I can't see more than seconds - very FEW seconds, five maybe - of shock. Sort of a "What the $#@! is that! What in the . . . HE'S ATTACKING MY SISTER!"
Followed by immediate and direct action.
Unless the brother is handicapped or really, really hated his sister, he's either in on her disappearance or is the worst kind of coward . . . I can't wrap my head around any able bodied adult "just" dialing 911 when a family member is being attacked.
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HankB:
Unless the brother is handicapped or really, really hated his sister, he's either in on her disappearance or is the worst kind of coward . . . I can't wrap my head around any able bodied adult "just" dialing 911 when a family member is being attacked.
"In an emergency, you will revert to your training and muscle memory."
Unfortunately, the aw-thau-ri-tays have been training us* for decades to dial 911 instead of doing anything else.
And we revert to our muscle memories: beep-boop-boop.
Terry, 230RN
* most of us, anyhow
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Mr. Chairman -
I move that we delay the vote, in order that we may address both the question of revocation of the man card and the possible necessity of removal of the man parts as well.
I agree with the comments of both the esteemed members here assembled and the gentle readers of the local fishwrapper that there are questions as to why the brother merely observedand called 9-1-1. However, I now rise in possible defense of the brother's actions to note that he followed, to the letter, the advice and instruction invariably given by law enforcement - to observe in order to be a good witness, and then to call them so that "The Experts" can handle the situation be assured the dangerous part is over before they show up to write down what happened. For as we all know, if a mere amatuer intervened there is a high possibility that one or more of the rights of the alleged abductor might have been violated.
I will now close with an abject apology for usurping the statements of the criminal defense attorneys and request that when they finish chasing ambulances they be allotted appropriate time to make their own eloquent pleas for consideration by the assembled members.
My esteemed colleague from Nevada has made a cogent point in his humorous edit, and perhaps a more widespread review of Man Card eligibility is in order for this region of Kentucky.
However, bearing a Man Card means that the bearer is certified to take decisive action in situations that warrant such behavior. Being that we have a clear-cut Man Card crisis unfolding before us, I move that the Council disregard the opening statement from the Gentleman from Virginia.
I believe a delay of vote could very well have greater cost to our social fabric.
If "men" are allowed to stand at the kitchen window and watch female family members get dragged off into the forest to be fodder for 2-legged animals, and retain their status as "men"... we might as well issue Man Cards to the 2-legged animals that do the dragging in the first place. This "man's" inaction is implied consent.
I move that the Council proceed with a recorded vote, to commence at 12 noon PST.
I yield the balance of my time (53 minutes) for further dialogue.
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I remember the controversy, in Israel, over 'developemental tests' for children aged 6 through 9.
One of the questions in the test was 'What would you do if your house catches fire?'
Children who said anything other than 'call the fire department' were ranked lower, and the lower they got, the higher the chance of a family-services visit or a suspicion they were developementally challenged.
Hilarity ensued when they started dealing with children from rural Ethiopia, where no fire departments exist.
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. . . Children who said anything other than 'call the fire department' were ranked lower . . .
In a house fire, the #1 response for children that age should be tell mommy/daddy and get out of the house.
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Whatever happened, I'd wager a good sum that it was not an unknown man in camo who took her away from the house. The story is not plausible. How far could you get on foot before a 911 call yielded some traction? In a place surrounded by woods, where would you ditch the escape vehicle? Why wouldn't the family have hit their autos and followed???
For the record, I don't think it's right to talk about crime victims' "man cards." The fact is, scary people and scary situations can freeze a lot of us...a good proportion of chest-beaters out there would lay down and take it just the same as most.
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Selby, in this case, one man is seen dragging off a rather tiny girl.
Most guys of my aquantance would be more the type to fight first, and ask questions later.
In other words, outside the PC "modern sensitive man" types, the first responce IS "WTF?!" Then run out and hit the bad guy.
This story would be more plasible is the brother had suffered injury or death when attacking the "camo man".
being a totally superficial person, this family doesn't look the type to produce the "modern sensitive man" type.
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I remember the controversy, in Israel, over 'developemental tests' for children aged 6 through 9.
One of the questions in the test was 'What would you do if your house catches fire?'
Children who said anything other than 'call the fire department' were ranked lower, and the lower they got, the higher the chance of a family-services visit or a suspicion they were developementally challenged.
Hilarity ensued when they started dealing with children from rural Ethiopia, where no fire departments exist.
Why would you want kids to go looking for a phone when the house is on fire?
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In a house fire, the #1 response for children that age should be tell mommy/daddy and get out of the house.
Back when I was a paramedic and doing CPR training in the community, we always instructed people to call 911 first for a suspected cardiac arrest or heart attack. That is for when you collapse in a heap after doing CPR for five minutes, hopefully the aid unit will have arrived by then.
We recently had a situation up here in which an elderly woman had a cardiac arrest, her elderly husband started CPR, and the exertion caused him to have a heart attack. The relatives found both of them dead a day or two later.
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Back when I was a paramedic and doing CPR training in the community, we always instructed people to call 911 first for a suspected cardiac arrest or heart attack. That is for when you collapse in a heap after doing CPR for five minutes, hopefully the aid unit will have arrived by then.
We recently had a situation up here in which an elderly woman had a cardiac arrest, her elderly husband started CPR, and the exertion caused him to have a heart attack. The relatives found both of them dead a day or two later.
At least they went together.
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For the record, I don't think it's right to talk about crime victims' "man cards." The fact is, scary people and scary situations can freeze a lot of us...a good proportion of chest-beaters out there would lay down and take it just the same as most.
Good point....unless you've trained a lot for situations like these, you WILL freeze....it's just human nature. If you have trained, then your training will kick in before your conscious brain starts processing....that is, most of the time.
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Any news updates on this?
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there is something fishy about this.
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No one ever accused me of being "sensitive" :P
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its looking like camo man didn't drag her rather had his arm around her and brother thought it was her boyfriend , you know how sometimes in the movies the bad guy puts his arm around the victim and threatens to use the knife to the throat trick.
looks like that might be the case, it might have been far enough away, her pic on facebook shows what I guess is her boyfriend and he does wear a camo hat, it was early in the morning and brother may not have had his caffeine yet, how can anyone expect you to be security conscience without your morning dose?
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I guess I'm from a different generation -- or maybe a different planet.
In an urban setting, if you see something going down involving a couple of strangers, I can understand being wary about intervening directly and calling 9-1-1 instead. But even then I think I'd be tagging along to be the proverbial "good witness."
A situation at my HOME, with a guy dragging my SISTER into the woods? I'd be out the door before it had time to open. And it has nothing to do with muscle memory, or training. Who trains for seeing their sister being abducted? You're either a person who responds to crises by acting -- or you're not. I don't know many people of my generation who "freeze." I'm sure they exist -- but not many in my circle of acquaintances.
When we were kids, my kid sister and her friend went for a walk in the woods near my grandparents' house and didn't come out. My mother called the cops ... who called the fire department ... who set up a command post in the grandparents' driveway and were in the process of arranging search teams and assigning sectors when I walked out of the woods with the girls in tow.
It was getting dark. Sometimes you just gotta DO things.
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in this case though the brother wasn't seeing anything out of the ordinary, & the news is now saying she wasn't dragged into the woods- the brother looked out the window and simply saw his sister and what he thought was her boyfriend walking into the woods
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I got this from an online news source, my pc isn't working up to speed so I can't find which article from what newspaper, hopefully not enoughth for a trademark dispute
The TBI yesterday also dispelled rumors regarding the sequence of events that led to the disappearance of the 20 year old UT Martin nursing student.
An initial report, released by the TBI on Wednesday, stated that Bobo's brother had seen his sister being "drug across the carport" of their Swan Johnson home. Authorities corrected the statement, stating that the 25 year old brother had seen his sister in the carport with a man in camouflage, from behind.
Moments later, he saw his sister walk towards the woods with the man in an unforceful manner, as if she was being led.
Holly Bobo's brother did not become suspicious of the events until he discovered blood in the carport. Authorities have stated that she was not forcefully abducted, but rather led away.
The TBI reported yesterday during a press conference that she may have been in fear for her life when she was taken from the home.
Dana Bobo, Holly's father, said on Thursday, that he believed that it may have been someone that knew the family's routine.
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I got this from an online news source, my pc isn't working up to speed so I can't find which article from what newspaper, hopefully not enoughth for a trademark dispute
Hmmmm....that explains a lot....thanks for the clarification....
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Freeze-up as an adaptive response?
Good point....unless you've trained a lot for situations like these, you WILL freeze....it's just human nature. If you have trained, then your training will kick in before your conscious brain starts processing....that is, most of the time.
I've seen that happen in myself once or twice. I'm not sure whether it was an "assessment phase" or a built-in neural response.
Looking back on those occasions (once was when a car just sailed off into the woods at full traffic speed) I wonder if that was some kind of adaptive survival response or what.
Maybe we ought to call it the "Opossum Response" and it has some kind of adaptive advantage. I do know that certain strains of rats go into seizures when loud jingling noises (like the rattling of a key ring) occur, and that certainly appears to be a purely built-in neural reponse, but I don't see any adaptive advantage to that particular phenomenon.
I'm also reminded of the fact that certain dogs (even large breeds) go all bonkers with thunder and gunshots. Now that one I can understand as being somehow adaptive.
Anyone else have this freeze-up experience (gun-related or not) and get a chance to analyze it afterward? Or am I just a wimp?
Terry, 230RN
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There was a pretty bad car wreck about 20 car lengths in front of me on I-94 last year. Young woman in a compact car, (I suspect texting) got my notice because she was weaving in and out of rush-hour dense traffic, clipped a work-van, then spun sideways and went into the middle divider, sending debris everywhere like a NASCAR crash, and she bounced back out into the middle lane.
It was kind of slow-mo, and very heavy on the surreal "Is this REALLY happening?" feeling.
Traffic went through the usual shocked shuffle of some going on, some stopping, some pulling over. I actually made an effort to navigate around the other cars and pull up even with her, and got out. The front end of her car was smoking badly, and not knowing if it was actually steam from coolant, or actual fire, I figured I needed to move. Someone else not paying attention and ramming into her wreck was also on my mind too.
Getting out of the car and running onto the freeway up to her car was a VERY strange feeling. Despite knowing intellectually I was doing something "right", it felt wrong on a very deep gut level, like... standing up in church during a moment of silence, and screaming obscenities, or the same uncomfortable feeling if someone else were to do it. Or like witnessing an ugly domestic fight right in the middle of a nice restaurant etc.
As I got around to the driver's side, I was able to see the woman sitting up in her seat, looking very stunned in a cloud of airbag smoke, but otherwise looking kind of intact. I rapped on the window to get her attention, and she opened the door. Surprising myself that I managed to think of, I told her to wait a bit, to make sure her back/neck was okay before she moved and weigh that against the risk of fire (which was looking more to be coolant steam), but in shock, she just got out of the car, presumably physically okay, and stood there looking dumbly at the car.
I finally had to yell at her and grab her elbow that she should come to the side of the road with me in case someone ran into her wreck (and us). Once off to the side, I tried asking her if she was okay again, but in brain-lock, shock or whatever (drugs maybe?), she wouldn't answer, and just started picking at her phone, as if figuring out who to call.
Looking back, I saw several people stopped on the emergency lane on their phones, and could already hear sirens, so I did not bother to call 911.
State troopers and some firemen led her away, and I stuck around to fill out an accident witness report.
What really struck me about that innate desire to freeze, or not get involved, was that it felt almost as if you were about to do something embarrassing or wrong, like stage fright, or farting in church. ???
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There arew folks who freeze up, and there are folks who go on "auto pilot". I'm apparently one of the latter.
I have a few ideas about why I go on auto pilot. As a child I learned/adapted to making contingency plans for the contingency plans I made in case the contingency plans I had made did not work out. All part of the survival mechanism of a child growing up in an abusive environment. It became so ingrained that I still do it to this day. Some situations are, to me, so "familiar" that I do not consciously plan things out but seem to literally call up plays from a well-memorized playbook.
Those that freeze up often seem to be caught dead in the water trying to get their OODA loop jump-started. It's as if they cannot accept the reality of the situation and are holding an internal conversation with themselves, trying to convince some part of their brain to either admit the reality no matter how foreign or to declare the situation a hallucination.
There is a third category I have seen - those who are so afraid that they also literally freeze up.
I've met all three categories in combat. The first one is really scary because I must trust that their idea of a response is actually useful. The second one is not too bad to deal with if one takes over and starts giving orders/instructions. The third category is not a problem, as you can always go back and get them after everything is over. They are good for humping supplies to the scene and for policing up the battlefield after things are restored to peace and order.
stay safe.
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Most that have been through some form of military boot camp and subsquent training in high stress situations will most likely go into auto pilot as described. I witnessed a pretty horrific highway crash. Ejected people under the car etc, Once I discovered the body under the car I too went into AP and somehow ended up back at the immediate scene with my car jack. It wasn't till after it was all over that the part about freaking out kicked in. PTSD for sure. ;)
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As volunteer wildland firefighters, we have to actually train to stop and assess the situation before jumping into action. Most of us just want to jump in and do something even if it is dangerous or not helpful.
But there are some who can't seem to remember, either on a fire or in training, the basic tasks like jump out of the truck, set the chocks, start the pump, turn on the valve to the booster reel, and pull out the hose ... ;/
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As volunteer wildland firefighters, we have to actually train to stop and assess the situation before jumping into action. Most of us just want to jump in and do something even if it is dangerous or not helpful.
But there are some who can't seem to remember, either on a fire or in training, the basic tasks like jump out of the truck, set the chocks, start the pump, turn on the valve to the booster reel, and pull out the hose ... ;/
As a former paramedic and firefighter instructor, I would routinely fail people during an exercise if the first words out of their mouth was not 'assess scene safety first' before doing something. The people who grab an ax and run solo into a burning building after leaping off the truck always gave me the heebie-jeebies.
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Most guys of my aquantance would be more the type to fight first, and ask questions later.
In other words, outside the PC "modern sensitive man" types, the first responce IS "WTF?!" Then run out and hit the bad guy.
Same here.
No one ever accused me of being "sensitive" :P
I've been to enough of the trainings, I oughta be able to teach the classes.
Most that have been through some form of military boot camp and subsquent training in high stress situations will most likely go into auto pilot as described.
Even before boot camp, I was not too likely to freeze. I think it might have been the contact sports training where application of force on another requires breaking of societal constraints to get the job done. And praise is doled out when such application is exceptionally, uh, forceful.
I think the "not-freeze" response is something that is amenable to training and/or conditioning just like most other human behaviors. If you have never been in such a situation, it will take most folk a moment (at least) to work through it.
In HS (before .mil service), when a gal ran into my stopped auto at 55MPH, I got out and had to do some damage to her auto to be able to see how she was doing. Others were crying, "We can't open the doors!!!!" I hesitated to think about:
1. "Hmm, I'm about to break a car window."
2. How to do so without injuring myself.
The other folks seemed unable to overcome their inhibitions against destroying property. I figured her auto was totaled anyways and she needed to be evaluated.
The people who grab an ax and run solo into a burning building after leaping off the truck always gave me the heebie-jeebies.
Well, yeah, since that sounds like a scene form a bad slasher flick.
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AJ- that "lock up and try to figure out what is real thing" is very like a lot of folks response to violent attack.
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For the record, I don't think it's right to talk about crime victims' "man cards." The fact is, scary people and scary situations can freeze a lot of us...a good proportion of chest-beaters out there would lay down and take it just the same as most.
For the record, I do think it's right to talk about it.
I've NEVER been to boot camp or basic. I've never been a cop. I've never been a paramedic. I've never been a firefighter.
I've never been a "hero." ;/
You don't need to be a frakking hero, to be a Man.
And yes, I've been tested in this regard at various points in my life from age 13 to the most recent at age 25, all prior to owning/carrying a gun regularly. Two of the three times I was still a brainwashed idgit libtard. Passed, all three times.
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it felt wrong on a very deep gut level, like... standing up in church during a moment of silence, and screaming obscenities
People never like it when I do that.
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As a former paramedic and firefighter instructor, I would routinely fail people during an exercise if the first words out of their mouth was not 'assess scene safety first' before doing something. The people who grab an ax and run solo into a burning building after leaping off the truck always gave me the heebie-jeebies.
My first words on every scenario during classes/testing:
"BSI! Scene Safe?"
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I don't know what I am.
I know when to freeze and when to jump.
I have to do both at work, so...
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I don't know what I am.
I know when to freeze and when to jump.
I have to do both at work, so...
Per your screenname you are a real live GIRL! On the INTERWEBZ!!
However, there are several members who might volunteer to do a verification check.
stay safe.
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As a former paramedic and firefighter instructor, I would routinely fail people during an exercise if the first words out of their mouth was not 'assess scene safety first' before doing something. The people who grab an ax and run solo into a burning building after leaping off the truck always gave me the heebie-jeebies.
Well, considering that the fire is often one of the biggest hazards on the scene, (and certainly the most visible) putting it out seems like a good first step in making the scene safe ;)
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I've seen it as well. The "Vapor Lock" of people when action is required.
I was constantly yelled at by the WINO when we'd be driving along see an accident, and I'd be running toward the scene with first aid kit in hand. I could never understand her "I'm a nurse, but I'm a baby nurse, so I'm just going to sit in the car and not do anything." She would say that as a nurse she could be sued if she did anything "wrong". I printed and read to her Illinois "Good Samaritan" Law.
I've always been "Evaluate the scene as I run toward it type." =D
One place I worked at, I saw on of our temps get her sleeve caught in a conveyor and start to get drug toward the roller at the end. I ran and tackled her, ripping her sleeve but freeing her, and when I looked up from the floor the two other managers that I had been standing with where still where I had left them. They still had the "deer in the headlights" look on their faces for a moment or two until "time started back up again" and everyone started to run toward where the girl and I had piled up on the floor.
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Well, considering that the fire is often one of the biggest hazards on the scene, (and certainly the most visible) putting it out seems like a good first step in making the scene safe ;)
And you now get hammered by OSHA and other State and Federal regulators if you attack the blaze without first utilizing the appropriate safety protocols. Seattle Fire got sanctioned and fined on this a few years back when they lost three firefighters in a structural blaze. The command center did not know how many people were in the structure or where they were. So when part of the structure collapsed, everyone was pulled back to attack from the outside only. A considerable period of time passed before anyone realized that the entire crew of an engine was missing. Entry was made to effect rescue but by then it was too late. I remember standing on the street and saluting as the funeral procession went by. :'(
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I've seen it as well. The "Vapor Lock" of people when action is required.
I was constantly yelled at by the WINO when we'd be driving along see an accident, and I'd be running toward the scene with first aid kit in hand. I could never understand her "I'm a nurse, but I'm a baby nurse, so I'm just going to sit in the car and not do anything." She would say that as a nurse she could be sued if she did anything "wrong". I printed and read to her Illinois "Good Samaritan" Law.
Tell WINO that a healthcare risk manager approves of her stopping to give aid. Although I am not an expert on Illinois law nor am I familiar with their version of the Good Sam law, I do know that it is plainly and simply the right thing to do. Although my years as a licensed provider are many years behind me, I still carry a comprehensive first aid kit and still stop to give aid when necessary. I can possibly do a lot of good at the scene and I can look at myself in the mirror the next morning.
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The command center did not know how many people were in the structure or where they were.
I'm guessing this was before PASS became commonplace, but there should still have been some personnel tracking. Tag boards worked fine for a long time, and I've seen a few other methods improvised by small departments that actually worked extremely well.
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Portland Fire has a pretty good PASSPort system in place now. It's also backed up with a roll call from dispatch on any evac scenario. But I will admit, they've gotten pretty lucky. I remember the last time they had a big fire and were seeing signs that the structure might collapse. Everyone got out ok, but one engine crew got split up during the evac. Add the fact that one half of the crew had a bad radio, and there was some real panic for a couple minutes until everyone got accounted for.
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I'm guessing this was before PASS became commonplace, but there should still have been some personnel tracking. Tag boards worked fine for a long time, and I've seen a few other methods improvised by small departments that actually worked extremely well.
For many, many years, Seattle Fire suffered from the 'NIH syndrome': not invented here. So if it was a technique not developed or refined by Seattle Fire, it wasn't any good. Their EMS system was ground-breaking and a national leader for many years, but the fire side of the house suffered from a series of hide-bound, good ol' boy chiefs. After losing a few firefighters over the years, they went to tag boards, and now they have an electronic system roll call and personnel tracking system. Last I heard, they were experimenting with a RFID tag tracking system affixed to the helmet. The volunteer department I was with was using tag boards years before Seattle.
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My first words on every scenario during classes/testing:
"BSI! Scene Safe?"
Scene safe! BSI! MOI/NOI! Spine stabilization?
I will go to my grave chanting that. I used to do it as a little cheer during class.
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Portland Fire has a pretty good PASSPort system in place now. It's also backed up with a roll call from dispatch on any evac scenario. But I will admit, they've gotten pretty lucky. I remember the last time they had a big fire and were seeing signs that the structure might collapse. Everyone got out ok, but one engine crew got split up during the evac. Add the fact that one half of the crew had a bad radio, and there was some real panic for a couple minutes until everyone got accounted for.
Spot on. The key in the Seattle incident was it involved the whole crew of an engine, so there was no one back at the rig to notice that they did not come back. In order to maximize boots on the fireground, they had a few engineers covering several rigs at once and sent the rest in on hoses.
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hide-bound, good ol' boy chiefs
As in: "we don't need no steenkin' ICS" ;/