Armed Polite Society

Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AJ Dual on April 17, 2011, 01:07:43 PM

Title: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 17, 2011, 01:07:43 PM
The "Box O' Truth" was criticized (rightly so) for using cut down .410 shotshells in their first test. So he went back and tried it with a 3" barrel model to get any velocity gain he could, and with a selection of pistol-optimized .410, or premium defense loadings.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1174519

Looks as though with premium self-defense ammo one or two of the loads might meet the FBI minimum penetration spec, however, patterns at even 7 yards for all of them were still abysmal.  =|

Unless you're a sport fisherman who needs a put-down weapon for point blank shots before bringing dangerous fish into the boat, or you have a real need to eliminate snakes right between your feet... The Judge just does not deliver much "justice".

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 17, 2011, 02:04:50 PM
No *expletive deleted*...


If you brought a judge to use as a defensive weapon against humans...well, you are a *expletive deleted*ing idiot.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: 41magsnub on April 17, 2011, 02:08:47 PM
No *expletive deleted*...


If you brought a judge to use as a defensive weapon against humans...well, you are a *expletive deleted* idiot.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 17, 2011, 02:12:35 PM
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

The Judge...it's the dipshit sidearm of choice. SHOTGUN YOU CAN HOLD IN YOUR HAND!!!!111!!!!!. Suddenly, a caliber that struggles against thin skinned small game when chambered in a full length shotgun is a death dealing ray of destruction when chambered in a shitty revolver made by a shitty company...BUT IT BLOWS UP WATERMELONS!!!!111!!!!. Yeah, because I'm fearing a revolt out of the produce section at Wal-Mart more than I fear a mugger in an alley.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 17, 2011, 02:22:37 PM
Hahahaha, glad people share my opinion of the judge (negative)...why would I want a firearm that is heavier, holds half as many rounds, has worse single-shot stopping power, and is the same sizeas my usp45...on the other hand (sarcasm) it's good for snakes! (well, so is a 12ga...or a rock)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 17, 2011, 02:29:11 PM
Hahahaha, glad people share my opinion of the judge (negative)...why would I want a firearm that is heavier, holds half as many rounds, has worse single-shot stopping power, and is the same sizeas my usp45...on the other hand (sarcasm) it's good for snakes! (well, so is a 12ga...or a rock)

Or as we've always used, a garden hoe...

I encounter about 4 or 5 snakes per year. Most of them are non-venomous (so why would I want to shoot a harmless creature?). For the one rattlesnake per year I encounter...well, a standard pistol works just fine.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: P5 Guy on April 17, 2011, 02:37:35 PM
I was severely chastised for questioning the usefulness of these oh so popular shot revolvers. How come the Thunder Five didn't catch on but these did?
Now if any company comes out with a 28 gauge... :facepalm:
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: 41magsnub on April 17, 2011, 02:45:02 PM
Speaking as a disinterested third party who has never so much as held a taurus product in my hand much less a judge, my apologies for getting in the middle of you assigning value on people based on the firearms they buy (calling them dipshits and idiots).  Carry on then.  I must have clicked on my favorite for ar15.com instead of APS.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 17, 2011, 02:47:30 PM
I was severely chastised for questioning the usefulness of these oh so popular shot revolvers. How come the Thunder Five didn't catch on but these did?
Now if any company comes out with a 28 gauge... :facepalm:

All about marketing. Guess the makers of the Thunder Five didn't buy enough ads and articles in gun rags...
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 17, 2011, 04:02:51 PM
Glad he redid the test with proper ammo....I learned a few things from this....

1. Using proper ammo (instead of bubba-ed loads) makes a difference.

2. A .410 full-sized shotgun makes for a great short-range HD weapon.

3. While I'm not interested in buying a Judge, I wouldn't hesitate getting a Bond Arms .410 derringer and have it for close-range work.

4. Shooting stuff really IS fun.....  =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 17, 2011, 04:56:22 PM
Speaking as a disinterested third party who has never so much as held a taurus product in my hand much less a judge, my apologies for getting in the middle of you assigning value on people based on the firearms they buy (calling them dipshits and idiots).  Carry on then.  I must have clicked on my favorite for ar15.com instead of APS.

Hmm. While I don't think the purchase of any weapon (regardless of tested capability or perceived utility) is sufficient evidence to make a conclusion as to the acuity of the user, I regard certain weapons as either (pardon the metaphor) "all season tires" or "race-ready tires".  In the former, a weapon is advertised as the "all {or many} purpose" weapon that excels at everything, thereby reducing the need to purchase different weapons.  In the latter, a weapon is advertised as being so unbelievably effective that many perceive its additional cost over a substitute to compensate for additional training.

Both types are exemplified with this specific weapon--advertised as wing great for HD and snakes/varmints and it's ability to use shotgun rounds for HD great for HD to make up for lack of precision in emergencies yet more easily pointed than a conventional shotgun.

It's those conclusions (drawn from advertisement) that are the issue.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: dm1333 on April 17, 2011, 05:07:52 PM
And so far nobody has talked about the fact that there are some really good .45 LC rounds out there that the Judge can shoot.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Matthew Carberry on April 17, 2011, 05:45:06 PM
And so far nobody has talked about the fact that there are some really good .45 LC rounds out there that the Judge can shoot.

Rounds that can be fired by every other .45 Colt revolver out there; some in much better packages at the same or similar price points. 

I have no beef with Taurus but the "hook" of the Judge IS the .410 capability.  If it can't utilize that with any significant benefit then it is indeed a gimmick gun.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Tallpine on April 17, 2011, 05:48:03 PM
And so far nobody has talked about the fact that there are some really good .45 LC rounds out there that the Judge can shoot.

That's what I was thinking, except a Judge is about the ugliest way to launch a .45 bullet :(
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: HankB on April 17, 2011, 06:10:48 PM
I can see a .410 revolver has some use in snake country.

But considering that I - and many others - don't consider a 12 ga with birdshot as a good self defense weapon, a .410 is off the bottom end of the scale. (Not that I want to stand in front of one, mind you . . .  ;) ) Better than nothing, adequate with some loads, but there are better choices in better packages.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: dm1333 on April 17, 2011, 06:34:37 PM
Function, utility and beauty are all in the eye of the beholder.  I won't begrudge a company making something, marketing it and selling a bunch of them on the market.  I'll stick with my SS 605 though.  ;)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 17, 2011, 08:38:43 PM
And so far nobody has talked about the fact that there are some really good .45 LC rounds out there that the Judge can shoot.

That's what I was thinking, except a Judge is about the ugliest way to launch a .45 bullet :(

...and way too heavy for a .45Colt revolver....I wish Taurus would bring back the 455 snubby instead....
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: dm1333 on April 17, 2011, 10:26:32 PM
Quote
That's what I was thinking, except a Judge is about the ugliest way to launch a .45 bullet


No argument there!  But the gun sells well so they must be doing something right.  Didn't S&W come out with their own version recently?  I never put a whole lot of thought into the Judge because I am pretty sure it isn't legal here in CA.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: MechAg94 on April 17, 2011, 10:36:11 PM
I am the proud owner of an 8 shot 357 magnum revolver.  Looking at that picture on the link, I think that 3" chambered Judge may be the same size or bigger than my 627.  It is certainly bigger than my 625.  I bet it doesn't even use moon clips either.

I have no beef with 45 long colt, but I was never impressed with 410 shot shells of any type as a defense gun.  If I saw a poisonous snake and there was pistol sitting next to a shovel, I am grabbing the shovel. 
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 17, 2011, 11:05:11 PM


No argument there!  But the gun sells well so they must be doing something right.  Didn't S&W come out with their own version recently?  I never put a whole lot of thought into the Judge because I am pretty sure it isn't legal here in CA.

First- Note that my rage is directed at those who buy and recommend a Taurus Judge or similar for SD/HD. I don't care if you brought it to shoot snakes or whatever. If you carry it for SD and/or recommend it to others for the same...well, you are a dumbass.

The only thing they are doing right is marketing (and they are doing a hell of a job at it)...S&W jumped on the bandwagon to make the money from idjits with a more...discriminating taste in junk. Yes, I did a facepalm when learning that S&W decided to bring out the "Governor"1. Actually, I did multiple facepalms.

And, yes, I call people who not only choose a Judge for SD, but RECOMMEND IT TO OTHERS FOR SD based on their "vast" experience shooting dirt clods and watermelons at the range with it *expletive deleted*ing idiots because they are. Giving idiotic advice that may very well get someone killed in an SD scenario is criminally stoopid, IMHO. This very much so includes Taurus (and now S&W) for marketing it as a defensive weapon in the first place, and the gunrags such as the NRA mags for praising it.  :facepalm:

Buy a real defensive grade gun if you want a SD gun. Feel free to buy a Judge for shooting dirt clods and watermelons, I don't care. Just don't recommend it as an SD weapon unless you like being known as a mouthbreathing jackwagon.

Honestly, if you've ever listened to the idiots at the guncounter clamoring for the Judge...you'd understand why it and it's acolytes are so hated... [barf]

1Actually, my exact words were "What the F***ing HELL S&W?! Do you hire designers who ride the short bus to work? Thought you were making a turnaround with stuff like the M&P pistols and rifles and ditching locks on some models...but now you're snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."




Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 17, 2011, 11:14:37 PM
unless you like being known as a mouthbreathing jackwagon.

You learn to live with it.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: roo_ster on April 18, 2011, 12:36:49 AM
I am still stunned after reading the arfcom thread.  Someone suggested the Judge for BEAR defense?  Anyone still suggesting some .410 shot load for SD out of The Judge deserves to have calumny heaped on their head.

After having used CCI rat shot out of my .357mag and .45ACP, I figured that they were good enough with their #12 shot, as any larger shot that might be more effective at range is not going to pattern for squat.  My AMT DAO Backup in .45ACP will cycle the CCI .45ACP shot shell, if I want 6 rounds of such at hand.  And it packs better than The (Revolver with Elephantiasis) Judge.

Truly, the ability to use .410 shells out of a pistol is useful only for putting grins on your face and is roughly as effective as CCI shot shells on rats, snakes, etc. at bad breath range.

Yeah, it can shoot .45LC, but its reason for being is the .410 shot shell.



Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Pharmacology on April 18, 2011, 12:42:43 AM
Didn't the Thunder Five shoot .45/70 as well?

I'd buy THAT for a dollar! =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: White Horseradish on April 18, 2011, 09:37:27 AM
reducing the need to purchase different weapons.
Wait, what? A reason to buy FEWER guns? KILL IT WITH FIRE!  [ar15]

 =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: T.O.M. on April 18, 2011, 10:50:29 AM
The blessing and curse that is the Judge, and probably the Governor as well, is that it is a gun that by looks is extremely appealing to the uninfomed shooter.  take the average person, and ask them which is more powerful...a .410 or a .357, and that person will pick the .410.  Why? Bigger number.  Set up the shells side by side, and you'll get even more support for the .410, because the shell is bigger.  Tell this person that you can shoot a shotgun shell out of the Judge/Governor, and that person will fall all over himself to buy one, because "it's a shotgun!"  years of watching TJ Hooker in re-runs has convinced that person that a shotgun will blow a badguy backwards through a window, so the Judge/Governor will do that as well.

I can't blame Taurus or Smith for riding this cash cow for all it's worth, but it's amazing to see some people I would call informed shooters starting to lean that way./  Heck, there's a bailiff here at the courthouse who is looking for a security holster for a Judge, becuase he thinks that it would be a good duty weapon for him.

PT Barnum wasn't wrong, you know...
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 18, 2011, 11:46:56 AM
My one silver-lining hope is that it's creating new gun owners who may not have otherwise been inspired to get into it.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Tallpine on April 18, 2011, 12:34:09 PM
My one silver-lining hope is that it's creating new gun owners who may not have otherwise been inspired to get into it.

The lady next door has one.  She is deathly afraid of snakes.

I'm just glad to see a woman carrying a gun.   =)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Gowen on April 18, 2011, 09:13:58 PM
Gun rags will never really bad mouth a firearm, especially from a big money advertiser like Taurus or S&W.  I don't blame S&W for jumping on the band wagon.  S&W produces enough variety that the Governor won't hurt them and may also help them.  People will buy what appeals to them and calling someone an *expletive deleted* just because they like something isn't helping the cause.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: brimic on April 18, 2011, 09:28:25 PM
Don't people buy guns to shoot just for fun anymore? The Judge might not be useful for SD, but it is fun to shoot.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: French G. on April 18, 2011, 09:33:34 PM
Meh, I'm waiting until I go nuts and build the 3.5" 12ga model. Dunno whether to call it The Supreme Court Justice or The Dictator.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: PTK on April 18, 2011, 10:15:23 PM
He didn't try the most effective ammunition, the 4 pellet 000 buck load. I really need to post the photos and whatnot from my gelatin test.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: 41magsnub on April 18, 2011, 10:16:56 PM
Meh, I'm waiting until I go nuts and build the 3.5" 12ga model. Dunno whether to call it The Supreme Court Justice or The Dictator.

That will be the Taurus Orthopod.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: MillCreek on April 18, 2011, 10:32:01 PM
^^^ I simply must remember this for the next time I speak at a medical meeting.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 18, 2011, 11:28:27 PM
Don't people buy guns to shoot just for fun anymore? The Judge might not be useful for SD, but it is fun to shoot.

Considering what the cheapest "fun" .410 loads are birdshot, and how poorly it patterns even at 7 yards... I kind of think you have to hit "something" to have "fun". But that's just me...
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: stevelyn on April 19, 2011, 03:15:57 AM
Does the law or the waffen BATFEces regs actually specify that "rifling" has to twist? If not, why not manufacture it with straight grooves and lands to satisfy BATFEces regs and eliminate the problem of the shot pattern spreading due to centrifigal force? It would suck for the handgun cartridges, but you fix that by shooting slugs.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 19, 2011, 06:08:32 AM
He didn't try the most effective ammunition, the 4 pellet 000 buck load. I really need to post the photos and whatnot from my gelatin test.

Please do...I'm interested in the results....

Does the law or the waffen BATFEces regs actually specify that "rifling" has to twist? If not, why not manufacture it with straight grooves and lands to satisfy BATFEces regs and eliminate the problem of the shot pattern spreading due to centrifigal force? It would suck for the handgun cartridges, but you fix that by shooting slugs.

Even better....go with Paradox rifiling....stabilizes slugs and keeps shot from spreading too wide....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_gun)

http://www.hallowellco.com/paradox_boring.htm (http://www.hallowellco.com/paradox_boring.htm)

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 19, 2011, 07:25:45 AM
That will be the Taurus Orthopod.

Which will be cool until the 30mm Taurus Unicron comes out
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Pharmacology on April 19, 2011, 10:24:47 AM
Whatever happened to that 28 gauge revolver?
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 12:35:18 PM
Whatever happened to that 28 gauge revolver?

Since it had a rifled bore to try and get around the SBS and AOW categories like the Judge does, but also had a bore of greater than .50, it was an instant Destructive Device classification. The demonstrated prototype did not even make it on display through the entire length of the SHOT show.

Speculation was that Taurus knew it wouldn't make it past the BATF, but just produced the "Raging Judge" as a publicity stunt, and as sour grapes to steal thunder from S&W copying the Judge with their Governor which they also presented at SHOT.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Pharmacology on April 19, 2011, 02:16:47 PM
Since it had a rifled bore to try and get around the SBS and AOW categories like the Judge does, but also had a bore of greater than .50, it was an instant Destructive Device classification. The demonstrated prototype did not even make it on display through the entire length of the SHOT show.

Speculation was that Taurus knew it wouldn't make it past the BATF, but just produced the "Raging Judge" as a publicity stunt, and as sour grapes to steal thunder from S&W copying the Judge with their Governor which they also presented at SHOT.

But I thought that was all rumor?

http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/quashing-raging-judge-rumors/

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/5521/truth-missing-from-raging-judge-28-gauge-rumors/
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: PTK on April 19, 2011, 02:25:31 PM
Apparently, even the "big names" in magazines and online articles got it wrong. Read the GCA 68, NFA 34, and then look at the description of the Taurus 28 revolver - 28ga (.550" or so), rifled, no stock, under 16" barrel and 26" OAL. It's an NFA item, plain and simple. :)

Even Taurus has greyed out the page with the 28ga Judge in their online catalog...

http://www.taurususa.com/2011newcatalog/?catalog_page=6
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Pharmacology on April 19, 2011, 02:29:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US0AsCuvfF8#t=28s
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on April 19, 2011, 02:41:51 PM

Even Taurus has greyed out the page with the 28ga Judge in their online catalog...
http://www.taurususa.com/2011newcatalog/?catalog_page=6
They did the same to their page on 100th anniversary 1911s.

I can't figure how they'd get around the regs on >.5 caliber weapons, either. What are the guidelines on those massive African hunting cartridges - .700 NE and similar? Are the weapons that fire them all smoothbore?
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: PTK on April 19, 2011, 02:44:12 PM
No; they're specifically (and individually) exempted from the NFA as only having a sporting purpose, having no utility as a weapon (not easily concealed, etc.).

The Judge in 28ga, quite simply, isn't going to get exempted. Ever.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Regolith on April 19, 2011, 02:45:15 PM
They did the same to their page on 100th anniversary 1911s.

I can't figure how they'd get around the regs on >.5 caliber weapons, either. What are the guidelines on those massive African hunting cartridges - .700 NE and similar? Are the weapons that fire them all smoothbore?

They're considered "sporting guns." IIRC, shotguns are actually under the same exception. Anything, smooth-bore or not, is considered a destructive device if it has a bore over .50" unless it's ruled to have a "sporting purpose."
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Tallpine on April 19, 2011, 03:21:07 PM
What about a caplock/flintlock pistol  ???
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Viking on April 19, 2011, 03:41:09 PM
What about a caplock/flintlock pistol  ???
Non-firearm due to being muzzle loader.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Tallpine on April 19, 2011, 04:03:38 PM
Non-firearm due to being muzzle loader.

So a double barreled caplock sawed off twelve gauge would be just fine  >:D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Regolith on April 19, 2011, 04:08:40 PM
So a double barreled caplock sawed off twelve gauge would be just fine  >:D

Yup.

Cabela's actually sells one (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Pistols|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104503680/Davide-Pedersoli-Howdah-Pistol/740261.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-black-powder-pistols%2F_%2FN-1100201%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104503680%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104792580%253Bcat104701680).  It's a replica of a Howdah pistol, which is basically a sawed-off double barrel 20 gauge shotgun, which you can have shipped straight to you since it's not technically a firearm.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 04:49:56 PM
But I thought that was all rumor?

http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/quashing-raging-judge-rumors/

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/5521/truth-missing-from-raging-judge-28-gauge-rumors/

Yeah, but if you haven't been "informed through channels", rumors are still rumors, even when they're right.

I think if it was really "We're still working with the BATF to bring this to market." as they're trying to imply, they wouldn't have pulled it from SHOT. Vendors show off plenty of stuff there that's just "show off" pieces like the famous Magpul AFG/PFG from 2008 that will never see a market. Just like concept cars at auto shows.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 19, 2011, 07:10:28 PM
Don't people buy guns to shoot just for fun anymore? The Judge might not be useful for SD, but it is fun to shoot.

I've met very, very few that have brought the Judge simply as a range gun.

98% of Judge owners I have met, however, think their pistol is TEH AWESOME!!!1111!!! for SD and will breathlessly and repeatedly inform you of how superior their piece of *expletive deleted*it is to anything else on the market.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 19, 2011, 07:22:55 PM
I've met very, very few that have brought the Judge simply as a range gun.

98% of Judge owners I have met, however, think their pistol is TEH AWESOME!!!1111!!! for SD and will breathlessly and repeatedly inform you of how superior their piece of *expletive deleted* is to anything else on the market.

Oh YEAH? Well why don YOU go stand downrange in front of it?! Huh? Ya wanna try THAT, smart guy?
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 19, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
Oh YEAH? Well why don YOU go stand downrange in front of it?! Huh? Ya wanna try THAT, smart guy?

OK, but I'm going to be shooting back with a Glock 19.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Jamisjockey on April 19, 2011, 08:03:14 PM
"dipshits"? Really?
This one stays open, barely.  APS is not arfcom.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 08:37:31 PM
Oh YEAH? Well why don YOU go stand downrange in front of it?! Huh? Ya wanna try THAT, smart guy?

Hundred bucks, #8 shot?

I'd take that bet.  =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: brimic on April 19, 2011, 08:39:54 PM
IBTL
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 08:50:23 PM
Fisty is joking.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 19, 2011, 09:07:09 PM
Fisty is joking.

The joke is on all you jokers without a judge at your side. Especially now that I have the duckbill attachment to spread my shot. I can mow you all down with one shot.

'Course now the bayonet don't fit.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 19, 2011, 09:24:15 PM
Fisty is joking.

I know, but I also know what I'm going to say to the next Judge owner who goes "Well, would you stand downrange of it..."

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
I thinks everyone should wait for Taurus to release "The Jury and Ankle Bracelet"

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft33%2FAJ_Dual%2Fduckfoot31.jpg&hash=1ada654924a4265bf4def019eb4a0139ebaa5bcd)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 19, 2011, 09:49:16 PM
I thinks everyone should wait for Taurus to release "The Jury and Ankle Bracelet"

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/AJ_Dual/duckfoot31.jpg (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/AJ_Dual/duckfoot31.jpg)

That can't be a Taurus....that looks like it might actually work....
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: PTK on April 19, 2011, 10:48:04 PM
The wanton bashing in this thread reminds me of HiPoint being bashed. Personally, I couldn't be happier with my under-$200 MSRP 9x19 rifle. :)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 19, 2011, 10:53:50 PM
The wanton bashing in this thread reminds me of HiPoint being bashed. Personally, I couldn't be happier with my under-$200 MSRP 9x19 rifle. :)

It's not bashing when it's fact The Judge, although heavily marketed and talked up as such, is a completely unsuitable SD/HD weapon...the HiPoints (both carbines and pistols) as crude as they are...are FAR better weapons than the Judge.

Oh, and while both the Taurus made guns and HiPoints have a good probability of having problems...guess which one you can actually get fixed in a timely manner?



Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 19, 2011, 11:15:59 PM
Hi Point gets bashed unfairly for their quality.

The Judge may be well made, but it's entire premise could conceivably get someone killed.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on April 20, 2011, 12:32:47 AM
The Judge may be well made, but it's entire premise could conceivably get someone killed.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/02/03/make-my-day-shooter/
Not if you're a masseuse.  :lol:

Though we don't know if he used buckshot, slugs, or .45 LC. 
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: dm1333 on April 20, 2011, 10:28:01 AM
Quote
That can't be a Taurus....that looks like it might actually work....

Says the guy who probably has never owned a Taurus!  Have you?  My 605 shoots just fine and anything they make based on the 85 is reliable.  [ar15] to Taurii haters!  =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: GigaBuist on April 20, 2011, 10:55:29 AM
Says the guy who probably has never owned a Taurus!  Have you?  My 605 shoots just fine and anything they make based on the 85 is reliable.  [ar15] to Taurii haters!  =D

I've got two Taurus products.  Neither works very well.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on April 20, 2011, 11:49:03 AM
I've got two Taurus products.  Neither works very well.
Revolvers? Their automatics are supposed to be pretty good, aside from their Beretta 21 copies (which don't always work that well for Beretta, either).
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: GigaBuist on April 20, 2011, 12:14:17 PM
Revolvers? Their automatics are supposed to be pretty good, aside from their Beretta 21 copies (which don't always work that well for Beretta, either).

One revolver (Model 94) and one carbine, the Thunderbolt in .45 Colt.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: dm1333 on April 20, 2011, 03:22:31 PM
Quote
My 605 shoots just fine and anything they make based on the 85 is reliable.


I knew I should have put in a disclaimer that I was only talking about the Model 85 models and the spinoffs from that.  =D
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: MechAg94 on April 20, 2011, 03:45:54 PM
I thinks everyone should wait for Taurus to release "The Jury and Ankle Bracelet"

I am waiting for the new model called "The Court Reporter". 
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Perd Hapley on April 20, 2011, 04:31:19 PM
I am waiting for the new model called "The Court Reporter". 

I'm particularly fond of the. 25 cal Meter Maid and the. 22 cal Crossing Guard. The. 17 cal Hall Monitor is supposed to be pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 20, 2011, 05:19:31 PM
I'm particularly fond of the. 25 cal Meter Maid and the. 22 cal Crossing Guard. The. 17 cal Hall Monitor is supposed to be pretty sweet.

What about the 220swift Secretary of the interior...makes lots of noise, moves quickly, is basically obsolete and marginally effective.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Tallpine on April 20, 2011, 05:45:38 PM
How about a blunderbuss called "The President" ?

 :P
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 20, 2011, 05:49:49 PM
How about a blunderbuss called "The President" ?

 :P

Winner! 
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Gowen on April 20, 2011, 06:45:28 PM
Revolvers? Their automatics are supposed to be pretty good, aside from their Beretta 21 copies (which don't always work that well for Beretta, either).

My carry is a PT 27/7 Millennium 140.  I've never had a jam and I keep a decent pattern in a target. I don't own a Judge.  I need a revolver, but I want one that is carry friendly, the Judge isn't.  I have no problem with bashing a gun for it's failures, but don't bash the owners.  Everyone has had buyers regret, they will either learn or eat their BBQed sparrow.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 20, 2011, 07:01:47 PM
Says the guy who probably has never owned a Taurus!  Have you? 


1. PT 908 (the SIG-looking 9mm)....nice concept for the time, but shot patterns with 115gr ammo. Had to use 147gr ammo to get anything close to a group. Had to send it back once to replace the extractor spring.....back in the day when Taurus Customer Service was actually good.....

2. M94 .22lr....this is an older model I bought used. Needs the rear sight replaced, but a pretty good nine-gun.

The models that Taurus has been making for 10+ years (85, 605, PT92, 94, etc.) tend to be pretty bug-free. It's the newer stuff that seems to cause the most problems, based on numerous posts on numerous boards. I'm also disgusted that Taurus uses its customers for QC instead of doing it in the factory.  I'd pretty much recommend...

1. Don't buy a Taurus model unless it's been in production more than five years.

2. Don't count on Taurus to make it right. If your local gunsmith can't fix it, sell it ASAP.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: GigaBuist on April 20, 2011, 08:55:31 PM
My carry is a PT 27/7 Millennium 140.  I've never had a jam and I keep a decent pattern in a target.

What would you estimate the total round count to be through the gun?  Generally speaking when I see that somebody has NEVER had a problem with a gun that just means their round count is low.

If you shoot a semi-auto pistol long enough it will barf on you.  Hell, I had a Glock exhibit two FTFs in a match once.  Granted, it was dirty as a politician and drier than a popcorn fart, but it did barf.  Any gun that I have owned long enough and really put through the wringer has let me down a few times.

Pistols that I hardly ever shoot, like my S&W 1911SC, that's never jammed on me either.  But I know it will.  I just haven't put more than 500 rounds through the thing over the years.

My Taurus stuff?  No way in Hell am I getting through 200 rounds with either without a bobble.  Same goes for my Walther P22.  It will NEVER happen.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: GigaBuist on April 20, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
Oh, a fun story that seems relevant.

About a year ago I'm in a client's office.  The president of the company comes in to chat with me.  Nice guy.  Another worker hands him a FedEx box that just arrived.  President looks at it, says, "What the heck is this thing from Miami?" and sets it on the desk.  About 10 minutes go by and he realizes, "Oh, that's my pistol back from repair!"

Well before he got that box open I said, "So, ya got a Taurus, eh?"

Yep.  PT-92, back from "repair" with a letter saying it works just fine.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: MillCreek on April 20, 2011, 09:21:40 PM
I am waiting for the "Lunch Lady".
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: roo_ster on April 20, 2011, 09:29:25 PM
How about a blunderbuss called "The President" ?

 :P

Hmm, I would have sworn that name was taken by Taurus's small-bore compressed air gun.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: AJ Dual on April 20, 2011, 09:37:57 PM
They're having problems importing the President. It seems if its domestic or imported is in question, and nobody can find the Form 6.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: seeker_two on April 20, 2011, 09:49:09 PM
I am waiting for the "Lunch Lady".

Done...it even has the Ribber Grips....

http://www.noveltytoys.us/images/Potato%20Gun.jpg (http://www.noveltytoys.us/images/Potato%20Gun.jpg)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: lee n. field on April 20, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Well before he got that box open I said, "So, ya got a Taurus, eh?"

Yep.  PT-92, back from "repair" with a letter saying it works just fine.

But, but.  The Taurus PT740 got 2011 NRA Handgun o' da year!

Quote
What distingrishes the PT740, however, is that should it fail to fire on the first try, the shooter needs only pu pull the trigger again for a second attempt -- a seldom--encountered needed (in guns that work) feature on a striker-fired pistol...

(Full disclosure -- my 605 works fine, upwards of a thousand rounds through it at this point.)
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 20, 2011, 10:07:34 PM
My Taurus stuff?  No way in Hell am I getting through 200 rounds with either without a bobble.  Same goes for my Walther P22.  It will NEVER happen.

My p22 is unstoppable, once I started feeding it only blazer, I started an experiment of how many rounds until I get a jam (without cleaning, at all)...I'm at 500 rounds, zero jams, FTF, or malfunctions (p22 with a gemtech can).  What ammo are you using? If I use anything other than CCI blazer, the thing FTF's or jams every 20-30rnds.  And that test included some serious abuse (10 magazines, as fast as I could pull the trigger) tests.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Boomhauer on April 20, 2011, 10:09:00 PM
Quote
But, but.  The Taurus PT740 got 2011 NRA Handgun o' da year!

When was the last year Taurus didn't win a "Handgun of the Year" option. Honestly, if you are reading NRA mags (or hell, most any gun rag) for gun and accessory advice...you're barking up the wrong tree...

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: GigaBuist on April 20, 2011, 11:03:34 PM
  What ammo are you using? If I use anything other than CCI blazer, the thing FTF's or jams every 20-30rnds.

Remington Golden Bullets mostly which I know is part of the problem, but I tend to think a .22LR plinker should be able to consume any ammo that's in spec. 
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: lee n. field on April 20, 2011, 11:03:57 PM
When was the last year Taurus didn't win a "Handgun of the Year" option. Honestly, if you are reading NRA mags (or hell, most any gun rag) for gun and accessory advice...you're barking up the wrong tree...

A gunforum FAQ -- what magazine to get?  (Handloader.  And that's about it.)

I still chuckle at remembering Am. Rifleman's first (there've been more than one) feature article on the Judge.  The first two pages featured a huge blowup photo of the back of the cylinder.  The nasty machining of the pawls (typical of Taurus revolvers) was so obvious that my wife (neither mechanically inclined, nor any way shape or form of gunny) remarked on it.

Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: birdman on April 20, 2011, 11:28:24 PM
Remington Golden Bullets mostly which I know is part of the problem, but I tend to think a .22LR plinker should be able to consume any ammo that's in spec. 

I tried those, it hated them.  After some googling I found out the p22 is quite particular, and the factory does their testing with the cci blazer.  I switched, and never looked back, I recommend trying it, you will be amazed!
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Pharmacology on April 21, 2011, 10:38:12 AM
When was the last year Taurus didn't win a "Handgun of the Year" option. Honestly, if you are reading NRA mags (or hell, most any gun rag) for gun and accessory advice...you're barking up the wrong tree...

>handgun magazine has a different opinion than I do.
>they're being paid off by the gun manufacturer.


How do I cognitive dissonance?
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: PTK on April 21, 2011, 11:53:52 AM
A gunforum FAQ -- what magazine to get?  (Handloader.  And that's about it.)

I still chuckle at remembering Am. Rifleman's first (there've been more than one) feature article on the Judge.  The first two pages featured a huge blowup photo of the back of the cylinder.  The nasty machining of the pawls (typical of Taurus revolvers) was so obvious that my wife (neither mechanically inclined, nor any way shape or form of gunny) remarked on it.



Shockingly, the Judge I have is extraordinarily well finished. I figure I either got lucky or they finally wised up to proper surface finish.
Title: Re: Seems the Judge is iffy even with the "right" ammo...
Post by: Gowen on April 21, 2011, 04:13:22 PM
What would you estimate the total round count to be through the gun?  Generally speaking when I see that somebody has NEVER had a problem with a gun that just means their round count is low.

If you shoot a semi-auto pistol long enough it will barf on you.  Hell, I had a Glock exhibit two FTFs in a match once.  Granted, it was dirty as a politician and drier than a popcorn fart, but it did barf.  Any gun that I have owned long enough and really put through the wringer has let me down a few times.

Pistols that I hardly ever shoot, like my S&W 1911SC, that's never jammed on me either.  But I know it will.  I just haven't put more than 500 rounds through the thing over the years.

My Taurus stuff?  No way in Hell am I getting through 200 rounds with either without a bobble.  Same goes for my Walther P22.  It will NEVER happen.


I got it second hand. I have put under a thousand, 500-700 maybe, with cheap Blazer ammo.