Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Seenterman on April 17, 2011, 01:27:53 PM
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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-electric-paid-federal-taxes-2010/story?id=13224558
So America has a corporate tax rate of 35% [OMG] one of the highest in world if not the highest. Well that sounds pretty bad until you realize cetrain huge America companies don't pay any federal income tax at all.
the company, led by Immelt, earned $14.2 billion in profits in 2010, but it paid not a penny in taxes because the bulk of those profits, some $9 billion, were offshore. In fact, GE got a $3.2 billion tax benefit.
So America's net loss from GE alone is around 8.17 BILLION dollars from a combined total of 35% of 14.2 billion along with the 3.2 billion they received in tax benefits. I wonder how many other huge corporations are skipping out on their tax bill and helping destroy America.
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How about a corporate income tax that's more in line with other nations, so we get it instead of them?
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Corporations aren't bleeding the US dry, a tax code that was written by an infinite number of monkeys is. If there was a simple flat rate tax on profits this wouldn't have happened. Of course corporations don't pay any tax they can't pass on to the consumer, which is generally all of them.
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:facepalm:
I have little sympathy for any of this ***◙*◙**. Our tax code has become far too complicated, and corporations hire lawyers and CPAs by the boatload to deal with this and find out how to save money ---- sort of a bottom line thing when you're trying to actually MAKE A PROFIT. We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, and pundits and politicians all whine about jobs being sent over to Taiwan, China, Thailand, or Pago Pago or someplace.
Let the poltroons in D.C. get their ▓▓▓▓ acts together and simplify the GordionKnot Tax Code.
And fine, GE and other companies probably ought to pay some taxes on their American-based operations, I don't have a problem with that. But let's not set up a system which legally allows it to happen, then whine like stuck piglets when they actually take advantage of the law as it is. >:D
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And just how much should corporations be paying in taxes in order to be kicking in their "fair share"?
Considering how the money a corporation makes goes into not only maintaining the existing direct and indirect workers in their jobs, who then fuel the economy with their spending, I wonder what would happen if that amount was reduced because of an increase in the amount of taxes that needed to be paid?
No, I'm not an absolutist on capitalism. But I do understand a little bit about how corporations use the existing tax codes to do like any other good citizen does to limit the amount of taxes they pay to the absolute minimum required. Or did I miss the announcement that certain corporations and the people who run and own them were lining up to donate extra money to the Treasury - just like the rest of the Obama-worshipers and Obama-haters?
Corporations have voted with their feet by relocating their operations from high tax states to places with lower taxes. Many have even paid in order to relocate some of their key blue-collar employees as well as their white-collar ones. What will be the result if the national taxes are raised on those corporations?
Or are we all fully satisfied with the goods we are already being offered from overseas corporations, except that we want more of the same?
stay safe.
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What are the feelings here about the Fair Tax?
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Maybe this is part of the problem. The apathy to the actual problem. I know GE is robbing America, they may be able to do it legally but it still constitutes theft in my book. Sort of how like OJ's a murderer but he's not legally a murderer.
It bothers me when I see people going OMG poor people are destroying this country but are apathetic to a a single corporation skipping out on a 4 billion tax bill and at the same time receiving 3.2 billion in tax breaks while other corporations are undoubtedly doing the same. GE stole 3.2 billion from us, that alone should have people in the streets, but alas Americans aren't paying attention, and when we do we have the attention span of a goldfish.
How about a corporate income tax that's more in line with other nations, so we get it instead of them?
I have a layman's knowledge of this subject but my take on it is that we'd have to decrease our corporate tax rate to the lowest in the world to think of making most large corporations voluntarily pay them, or else they can just open up an office with 5 people in the Cayman Islands declare that as their base of operations, or some other similar country with lenient tax codes and then poof their an offshore company doing business within the US and a majority of our taxes no longer apply!
If anyone's an actual commercial lawyer they'd be able to explain it better.
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And just how much should corporations be paying in taxes in order to be kicking in their "fair share"?
Considering how the money a corporation makes goes into not only maintaining the existing direct and indirect workers in their jobs, who then fuel the economy with their spending, I wonder what would happen if that amount was reduced because of an increase in the amount of taxes that needed to be paid?
So you think their fair share of taxes is 0% of their profits?
What about the additional 3.2 billion in tax benefits they received?
I stimulate the economy with my spending by patronizing small and large businesses why can't I have a 0% tax rate? Or is that only a consideration when I have income in the billions?
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Maybe this is part of the problem. The apathy to the actual problem. I know GE is robbing America, they may be able to do it legally but it still constitutes theft in my book. Sort of how like OJ's a murderer but he's not legally a murderer.
It bothers me when I see people going OMG poor people are destroying this country but are apathetic to a a single corporation skipping out on a 4 billion tax bill and at the same time receiving 3.2 billion in tax breaks while other corporations are undoubtedly doing the same. GE stole 3.2 billion from us, that alone should have people in the streets, but alas Americans aren't paying attention, and when we do we have the attention span of a goldfish.
I have a layman's knowledge of this subject but my take on it is that we'd have to decrease our corporate tax rate to the lowest in the world to think of making most large corporations voluntarily pay them, or else they can just open up an office with 5 people in the Cayman Islands declare that as their base of operations, or some other similar country with lenient tax codes and then poof their an offshore company doing business within the US and a majority of our taxes no longer apply!
If anyone's an actual commercial lawyer they'd be able to explain it better.
What exactly is GE stealing that is not theirs?
You're pissed at GE for getting tax breaks which they legally qualified for yet you say nothing about those who wrote the laws that let GE get said money. Don't be mad at GE be mad at congress.
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seeterman, it sounds like you think any revenue and profit belongs to the government first, not the individuals or companies that earn it. 'Fair share' my red chapped posterior.
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So you think their fair share of taxes is 0% of their profits?
What about the additional 3.2 billion in tax benefits they received?
I stimulate the economy with my spending by patronizing small and large businesses why can't I have a 0% tax rate? Or is that only a consideration when I have income in the billions?
Never said they should pay 0% of their profits. I asked what a "fair share" would be in your economy.
What about the folks who make money by the sweat of their brow (in other words are not multi-national corporations) but manage to not owe any taxes? Should they also be penalized for knowing how to manipulate the tax code to their advantage?
And in answer to your final question - you too can have a zero tax rate if you work things out properly. Go find out how to do it.
stay safe.
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It's not that GE found little caveats in the tax code, but that they lobbied and bribed (see that paragon of integrity Rangel and how much GE money went into his district) their way in so they could help rewrite parts of the tax code to make themselves tax-free. It's outfits like GE that have helped to make the tax code so Byzantine.
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Hey. Write off your entire pay as a charitable contribution. Keep receipts. In an economy like hours at the moment, spending any money with any kind of a merchant would be charity, no?
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And just how much should corporations be paying in taxes in order to be kicking in their "fair share"?
A friend of mine brought up the 'fair share' talking point and I started my response with the exact same question.
Crux of my own argument, same as limitations to entering politics, sets a bar for anyone new while the existing entrenched are above playing by the ordinary rules. Make the tax rate reasonable, then having the greats play by the same rules won't be so preposterous. Especially as our taxation system strikes/dips at more than four places.
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seeterman, it sounds like you think any revenue and profit belongs to the government first, not the individuals or companies that earn it. 'Fair share' my red chapped posterior.
That was what I was thinking, too.
Amazing how people forget what corporations do, and how they are structured. They also tend to forget that those "absurdly high profits" get paid to shareholders, most of whom are shareholders through some type of investment or retirement plan. I have a friend who is forever harping about how Big Corp "just makes too much money". When I ask her about how she intends to fund her retirement if the dividends get cut and her IRA takes a dump, she looks at me like I have horns growing out of my head. Her emotional investment in the "Don't Pay Their Fair Share" mantra is so deep that she not only can't but won't believe her success is tied directly to the very thing she loves to hate.
Kinda sad that people are so disconnected with the way the economy really works.
Brad
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What are the feelings here about the Fair Tax?
I like it....esp. the part where corporations pay no taxes....and get no tax breaks....
We've forgotton why the legal entity called "corporation" exists....to work around a tax code that was screwed up even in the late 19th Century....
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Imagine what would happen if America had a 0% rate on corporations....
How many of the "off-shore" corporations would move back.
To the OP: Which state would you run your business an have to live in?
State A: 9.5% Corporate Income Tax and 5.0% Individual Income Tax
State B: 8.5% Corporate Income Tax and 3.4% Individual Income Tax
Pick one and then tell me why.
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Hey. Write off your entire pay as a charitable contribution. Keep receipts. In an economy like hours at the moment, spending any money with any kind of a merchant would be charity, no?
The government men with guns do not like your suggestion...
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I like it....esp. the part where corporations pay no taxes....and get no tax breaks....
We've forgotton why the legal entity called "corporation" exists....to work around a tax code that was screwed up even in the late 19th Century....
What tax code in the late 19th Century are you talking about? Certainly not the income tax.
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What are the feelings here about the Fair Tax?
I like the concept, but I think I would prefer a 10 or 15% flat tax at this point. I would hate to see the mess Congress could make of the myriad sales taxes on different types of goods.
Of course, I like Ron Paul's response when asked if we got rid of the income tax, what would we replace it with. He said "Nothing". =D
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What tax code in the late 19th Century are you talking about? Certainly not the income tax.
If he's talking about the origins of the corporation, he's got the wrong time-frame anyway.
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Corporate income taxes are imposed by fools who know little about how a corporation works, usually as red meat for even greater fools who got them elected.
Even if the gov't chiseled out some percentage in taxes, it is not the corporation that pays them. It is the shareholders: widows who bought annuities, union members whose defined benefit pension plan is invested in *gasp* corporations, and any schmoe with a 401k.
Folks want corporations to have less influence and to "pay their fair share?" Then, reduce the size & importance of fed.gov so that any act by fed.gov can no longer make or destroy a company or industry. Until then, it is wise business sense to work cheek to jowl with whomever controls the levers of power.
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Because most people have no idea how corporations function or how they're taxed, it's easy for politicians to make targets of them. "Corporation" sounds "big", and anything big is easily vilified. These people may not even realize that they work for a corporation or, as Brad pointed out, that their investments are tied to the profits corporations make.
When a government makes it too expensive for a corporation (or a company in any form, really) to do business in a city, state or country, it's only logical that the entity will look to move to a place where costs are less. All things otherwise being equal, there's more profit to be made if taxes or other costs are lower.
When legislators in Wisconsin floated the idea of taxing the profits of out-of-state divisions of corporations with locations in the state of WI, a lot of those companies started talking about leaving the state.
I don't know why anyone is ever surprised by this.
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If he's talking about the origins of the corporation, he's got the wrong time-frame anyway.
Not the origins of the modern definition of "corporation", I'm not.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation#Mercantilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation#Mercantilism)
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There are tax measures that can effectively take money out of corporations and put it in government coffers, leaving the corporation with few avenues for response. It happens all over the world in highly developed economies with higher real tax rates than America.
The problem is that none of those measures will be deployed in the US, because unlike the "common knowledge" in conservative circles that corporations are easy targets, they're actually the most powerful institutions in the entire political system. Their funds and connections effectively determine all of the major elections.
Corporations operate to make a profit; there are many, many scenarios where profits for a corporation are damaging to the economy and to society as a whole. That's why increased profits don't necessarily mean more jobs, and increased productivity hasn't resulted in real wage increases. One of the things that in my mind robs American conservatives of intellectual credibility is this pretence that corporations operating in a marketplace are somehow inclined to do great things for society and individuals. It's obviously not true.
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One of the things that in my mind robs American conservatives of intellectual credibility is this pretence that corporations operating in a marketplace are somehow inclined to do great things for society and individuals. It's obviously not true.
It's obviously not true that American conservatives have this view of corporations. American conservatives actually believe that corporations (and everybody else) naturally act in their own interest, and that this tends to benefit society as a side effect. Ya know, Adam Smith, and all that stuff.
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The problem is that none of those measures will be deployed in the US, because unlike the "common knowledge" in conservative circles that corporations are easy targets, they're actually the most powerful institutions in the entire political system.
Call me when Bill Gates has the authority to command men with guns to arrest those who are using non-Windows operating systems and to shoot those who resist.
Really, statements like that quoted seem ignorant of the basic facts of government.
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There are tax measures that can effectively take money out of corporations and put it in government coffers, leaving the corporation with few avenues for response. It happens all over the world in highly developed economies with higher real tax rates than America.
The problem is that none of those measures will be deployed in the US, because unlike the "common knowledge" in conservative circles that corporations are easy targets, they're actually the most powerful institutions in the entire political system. Their funds and connections effectively determine all of the major elections.
Corporations operate to make a profit; there are many, many scenarios where profits for a corporation are damaging to the economy and to society as a whole. That's why increased profits don't necessarily mean more jobs, and increased productivity hasn't resulted in real wage increases. One of the things that in my mind robs American conservatives of intellectual credibility is this pretence that corporations operating in a marketplace are somehow inclined to do great things for society and individuals. It's obviously not true.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
<breathe.... breathe.... breathe...>
Sorry, that's one of the funniest posts I've ever read.
Their funds "effectively determine" all of the major elections? I suppose you can make the case for that since whoever wins gets TONS of donations from thousands of corporations. Of course, whoever loses gets TONS of donations as well. This is because corporations know whoever wins has them over a barrel, so they give, "generously", to both sides.
As for profits being bad, I'm impressed by ignoring "ceteris paribus" as for why increased profits may not mean increased wages or more jobs.
It's like saying shooting someone center of mass with a .44 magnum doesn't necessarily mean the threat will be stopped or the target killed as there are many many scenarios where an individual can and has survived.
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Influential /= powerful
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That was what I was thinking, too.
Amazing how people forget what corporations do, and how they are structured. They also tend to forget that those "absurdly high profits" get paid to shareholders, most of whom are shareholders through some type of investment or retirement plan. I have a friend who is forever harping about how Big Corp "just makes too much money". When I ask her about how she intends to fund her retirement if the dividends get cut and her IRA takes a dump, she looks at me like I have horns growing out of my head. Her emotional investment in the "Don't Pay Their Fair Share" mantra is so deep that she not only can't but won't believe her success is tied directly to the very thing she loves to hate.
Kinda sad that people are so disconnected with the way the economy really works.
Brad
Indeed!