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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on May 10, 2011, 09:53:28 PM

Title: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on May 10, 2011, 09:53:28 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/irish-bombshell-government-raids-private-pensions-to-pay-for-jobs-program-2011-5

...and the Irish basically just did it.

Now there's a precedent.

My employer, with whom I signed on about 3 years ago during the time the Dems were last talking about it, thought I was nuts to forgo the 401k plan.  (They didn't match contributions or anything, but even if they did I wouldn't have jumped on it.)

I'm even dubious of Roth IRA's, where you pay taxes NOW and are "guaranteed" that you won't have to pay taxes on your withdrawal when you retire.  When government needs money, it WILL take it.  Somehow.

Prepare your tar, feathers, rails, pitchforks and torches.  It's GOING to come here.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 10, 2011, 10:16:28 PM
Quote
Enda Kenny

Enda Kenny

Image: thejournal.ie
The Irish government plans to institute a tax on private pensions to drive jobs growth, according to its jobs program strategy, delivered today.

Plans. The plan is not in force yet.


It is also a 0.6% tax.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: seeker_two on May 10, 2011, 11:46:12 PM
Few things would get the American mad enough to start shooting politicians....this might be one of them....this is why gov'ts push for gun control first.....
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 11, 2011, 12:39:00 AM
The impossible and the absurd and the self-destructive ARE going to happen.  It's the nature of ever-expanding, increasingly insulated government.  Just when you think "they'd never go THERE," they do.  Prepare accordingly.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: RocketMan on May 11, 2011, 12:50:33 AM
The Economic Policy Institute has floated the idea of taking 401(k)s and folding them into SS or some other government vehicle.  I remember reading the position paper they put together with frank amazement that they would even broach the subject, given how Americans might react.  It's not there the last time I looked for it.  Maybe my search-fu on their site is weak.
I saw a video (on Youtube?) with Barney Frank talking about the same thing a couple of years ago.  Cannot find it anymore, don't know where it went.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: 209 on May 11, 2011, 02:22:09 AM
I expect it will happen eventually.  The feds need revenue and tapping IRAs would be a way to do it.  After all, if you took it upon yourself to save for your retirement, the other folks who didn't deserve some of your money.   :mad:

Don't they?  >:D
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 11, 2011, 10:59:58 AM
I'll be willing to share my retirement funds when those who didn't save invite me over for dinner, provide chauffeur services, and have their children volunteer to do my yardwork gratis.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on May 11, 2011, 11:05:38 AM



It is also a 0.6% tax.

It was only the Trade Unionists.

It was only the magazines over 10 rounds.

It was only the machine guns.

It was only the guns over .50 caliber.

It was only the silencers.

Income tax was initially only 1%.

It was only the Jews.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 11, 2011, 11:08:54 AM
And the magazines over 10 rounds are legal. THey've not actually progressed in a significant way beyond their achievements in 1986, and in fact it remains "only" the machineguns and the other guns. And even that is not permanent.

A 0.6% tax on payments from the account is about as similar to the government seizing the account itself, as the excise tax on firearms is to a ban on all guns. If the excise tax were 0.6%, that is.

Of course, even in Ireland this plan has not passed yet.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: lee n. field on May 11, 2011, 11:24:01 AM
I expect it will happen eventually.  The feds need revenue and tapping IRAs would be a way to do it.  After all, if you took it upon yourself to save for your retirement, the other folks who didn't deserve some of your money.   :mad:

Don't they?  >:D

<shrug>.  I always figured I'd end up penniless.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 11, 2011, 11:48:29 AM
And the magazines over 10 rounds are legal. THey've not actually progressed in a significant way beyond their achievements in 1986, and in fact it remains "only" the machineguns and the other guns. And even that is not permanent.

A 0.6% tax on payments from the account is about as similar to the government seizing the account itself, as the excise tax on firearms is to a ban on all guns. If the excise tax were 0.6%, that is.

Of course, even in Ireland this plan has not passed yet.

No one's panicking yet, we're just understandably vigilant, having seen decades of leftist mission creep.  While it's true that about 80 per cent of America has RKBA some of the biggest and electorally important states--I live in one, CA--patently do not.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: lee n. field on May 11, 2011, 01:58:59 PM
Quote
While it's true that about 80 per cent of America has RKBA some of the biggest and electorally important states--I live in one, CA--patently do not.

Quick back of the envelope calc -- CA + IL together accounts for 1/6th of the population of the United State.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: kgbsquirrel on May 11, 2011, 02:05:29 PM
Quick back of the envelope calc -- CA + IL together accounts for 1/6th of the population of the United State.

What is it if you include NY/NJ?
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: tokugawa on May 11, 2011, 03:33:07 PM
AZ- don't be behind the times, man- Argentina and Hungary also did this- it will come, pension funds are the largest untapped source of money-almost irresistible.  Oh, and that .6 percent-yearly, with loss of interest  income adds up to a VERY significant number over the life of a fund, say, 30 or 40 years. I think Denninger over at  "the market ticker" calculated it out to a 27% loss in value.
 http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=185861

 Now lets talk about what happens when a tax is started, like the income tax? Ever see the first form?  One (1) percent on $20,000 income.
 That 20K is $435,500 in today's terms, calculated for inflation. Gee, a lousy one percent of almost a half million don't sound too bad, does it?
 And those folks earning $500,000?  they had to pay seven(7) percent. Of $10,888,594.79 in todays dollars.
 This, my friends, is an example of "the camels nose".

Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Waitone on May 11, 2011, 04:51:25 PM
It is a mathematical certainty that fed.gov will confiscate private retirement as it will confiscate any other pool of wealth it stumbles across.  Every country which has faced a currency collapse has done the same thing.  Our future can be seen in Argentina's past.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 11, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
No one's panicking yet, we're just understandably vigilant, having seen decades of leftist mission creep.  While it's true that about 80 per cent of America has RKBA some of the biggest and electorally important states--I live in one, CA--patently do not.

You are viewing it as a snapshot. I recommend a historical view:

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gun-nuttery.com%2Frtc.gif&hash=2eabad40fc64ed337a333384032c4477cee4aabd)
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 11, 2011, 08:00:37 PM
Your map is a little misleading because some of those states have been open carry forever.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 11, 2011, 08:05:05 PM
Your map is a little misleading because some of those states have been open carry forever.

That's excellent, but wouldn't you agree it represents a certain progress in RKBA?
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 11, 2011, 08:14:16 PM
That's excellent, but wouldn't you agree it represents a certain progress in RKBA?

From a state level: yes, indeed (the recent events in MT notwithstanding  :mad: )

What I am seeing is a dichotomy - most of the states are pulling one way towards more RKBA, and the feral govt is pulling the other towards more tyranny.  The fabric is bound to rip eventually.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 11, 2011, 10:18:16 PM
What new gun laws have been introduced since 1994 restricting your freedom?

Since 1994:

1. The AWB has been repealed.
2. Guns in national parks. (signed by President Obama)
3. Abolition of CLEO signature requirement (currently in the works)
4. Heller and McDonald. (Although Heller had its downsides I harp on often).
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 11, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
Batf seems to be getting worse and worse.

I expect some administrative gun control after Obamao gets his second term  =(
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 12, 2011, 01:32:26 PM
The progress in right-to-carry only reflects the growing schism in the country between the desires of American citizens on the local level and the continuing pressure by outnumbered but still politically powerful entities at the Federal level to thwart those desires. 
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: brimic on May 12, 2011, 02:20:06 PM
Quote
1. The AWB has been repealed.
There was no deliberate action to repeal the law, it simply sunset. Without a sunset provision, we no doubt would still have that law on the books.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 12, 2011, 03:48:07 PM
The progress in right-to-carry only reflects the growing schism in the country between the desires of American citizens on the local level and the continuing pressure by outnumbered but still politically powerful entities at the Federal level to thwart those desires. 

See...?

Somebody agrees with me  =)
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MechAg94 on May 12, 2011, 04:53:07 PM
There was no deliberate action to repeal the law, it simply sunset. Without a sunset provision, we no doubt would still have that law on the books.
Perhaps so, but there were enough politicians in the right places to see that it went no where. 
Everyone likes to hate on Tom Delay who was Speaker of the House at the time, but he was one of the few people in D.C. willing to come out and say there was no way in hell they would pass the extension.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: French G. on May 12, 2011, 05:34:53 PM
We're all antsy because it is going to be one big event that makes RKBA go poof at a national level. Who knows what? Mass violence, emergency powers after economic mess, terrorists? Doesn't matter, just needs to be a big enough ZOMG panic to get enough idiots to pass a bill. Then all the right to carry/Heller type progress gone, instantly.  I seriously expect armed dissent within my lifetime, be pissed if it doesn't happen because that can only mean it's passed to my kid's generation and I'm not there to get them through it.

Oh yeah, this was about 401Ks. I expect that I am the canary in the coal mine. Gov't based TSP will *poof* vansh before 401Ks I expect. Then we're right back to that armed dissent thingy. Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: seeker_two on May 12, 2011, 08:09:45 PM
Oh yeah, this was about 401Ks. I expect that I am the canary in the coal mine. Gov't based TSP will *poof* vansh before 401Ks I expect. Then we're right back to that armed dissent thingy. Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.

...and they're the ones who won't care about dying because they're expecting to....
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on May 12, 2011, 08:12:08 PM
And the magazines over 10 rounds are legal. THey've not actually progressed in a significant way beyond their achievements in 1986, and in fact it remains "only" the machineguns and the other guns. And even that is not permanent.

A 0.6% tax on payments from the account is about as similar to the government seizing the account itself, as the excise tax on firearms is to a ban on all guns. If the excise tax were 0.6%, that is.

Of course, even in Ireland this plan has not passed yet.

more reality blasphemy?!   for shame
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: HankB on May 12, 2011, 10:27:35 PM
. . . Hmmm, old peoples with guns and no money to kick it on the beach or buy the medication they need. That oughta work out well.

...and they're the ones who won't care about dying because they're expecting to....

A spry oldster who figures he can meekly move into a cardboard box under a bridge where he'll be found in spring . . . or do something. And maybe end up getting three squares a day in the Graybar Hotel? Some choice.

I'd HATE to be known as the politician responsible for putting the old-timer into that position.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: RoadKingLarry on May 13, 2011, 12:08:48 AM
A spry oldster who figures he can meekly move into a cardboard box under a bridge where he'll be found in spring . . . or do something. And maybe end up getting three squares a day in the Graybar Hotel? Some choice.

I'd HATE to be known as the politician responsible for putting the old-timer into that position.


No worries, the press will just label them as right wing religious fanatics and gun nuts. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 13, 2011, 12:13:40 AM
We're all antsy because it is going to be one big event that makes RKBA go poof at a national level. Who knows what? Mass violence, emergency powers after economic mess, terrorists? Doesn't matter, just needs to be a big enough ZOMG panic to get enough idiots to pass a bill. Then all the right to carry/Heller type progress gone, instantly.  I seriously expect armed dissent within my lifetime, be pissed if it doesn't happen because that can only mean it's passed to my kid's generation and I'm not there to get them through it.

There's no reason to worry about the "one big event that makes RKBA go poof," because when that one big event arrives, accompanied by many smaller events, the stuff will have hit the fan and general mood in the nation will be very different from what it is now.  The raw feelings will no longer be hidden behind political correctness, they'll be out there for everyone to see and hear.  People are not going to give up their guns when they see the ground really moving under their feet.  At that point anyone who wants to gun-grab will be discredited and dismissed and will have a lot more to be concerned about than passing anti-gun legislation.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: RevDisk on May 13, 2011, 12:19:06 AM

Sigh.  Congress is not going to seize 401(k)s or IRAs.  It won't happen.  For the same reason that Social Security will not be fixed.  Old people are the single largest cohesive voting block in the United States.  Fighting them is politically suicidal. 

I wouldn't blink an eye at retirement accounts being taxed, the rules changed or whatnot.  Not for a moment.  But total or majority seizure is out of the question.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 13, 2011, 12:22:41 AM
Seized?  Probably not.  How about converted?  Into long-term treasuries?  For "safety," for our own good, for the Good of the Nation?
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: RevDisk on May 13, 2011, 12:34:03 AM
Seized?  Probably not.  How about converted?  Into long-term treasuries?  For "safety," for our own good, for the Good of the Nation?

Mandatory conversion to Treasury securities?  Ok, I'll say it's not impossible.  Some pension plans already are.  Credit unions by regulation have to hold assets in "safe" securities, which generally means T-notes.  But only universal compulsory T-note retirement accounts?  Eh, I'm not seeing that. 

So, my guess on that would be "possible, but unlikely".  Again, old people.  They are the overwhelming largest chunk of federal spending, and will be for quite some time.  Expect any "solution" to soak young and middle age workers.  You know, exactly like now. 

Note, I'm not saying the current group of old folks caused this situation.  They did pay in, and I respect that.  I also know it's not going to last until my retirement.  I respect that part as well.  It's a situation with no magic solution.  The closest is "least worst" solutions, and there are few of them.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: brimic on May 13, 2011, 12:41:30 AM
All the money tied up in 401Ks won't amount to a hill of beans if the Fed continues its current monetary policy and congress keeps spending lik drunken sailors in a whorehouse. 0.6% of nothing is still nothing.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.angelpub.com%2F2008%2F49%2F1474%2F20081202_zimbabwe_inflation_rate_13jpg.jpg&hash=44e5925bfdab0e4957a0574c2bbeae8d42259e8c)

Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Fly320s on May 13, 2011, 09:34:07 AM

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.angelpub.com%2F2008%2F49%2F1474%2F20081202_zimbabwe_inflation_rate_13jpg.jpg&hash=44e5925bfdab0e4957a0574c2bbeae8d42259e8c)


Uh, I forgot my wallet. You get this check, I'll get the next one.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: makattak on May 13, 2011, 09:36:47 AM
Uh, I forgot my wallet. You get this check, I'll get the next one.

No problem. I've still got a couple real nickels. I should get about $35,000,000 back.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: brimic on May 13, 2011, 10:13:24 AM
Quote
Uh, I forgot my wallet wheelbarrow. You get this check, I'll get the next one.
FIFY.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: longeyes on May 13, 2011, 10:36:53 AM
Conversion to Treasuries is coming.  So is a "wealth tax."

Unless.

Unless someone says **** NO.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 13, 2011, 11:07:42 AM
No worries, the press will just label them as right wing religious fanatics and gun nuts. Problem solved.

I'm not religious  :P
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: makattak on May 13, 2011, 11:09:48 AM
I'm not religious  :P

That won't stop them. They call McVeigh a "christian terrorist."
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Boomhauer on May 13, 2011, 07:19:42 PM
Conversion to Treasuries is coming.  So is a "wealth tax."

Unless.

Unless someone says **** NO.

Right now most of America is hatin' on Big Wealth...
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: brimic on May 14, 2011, 05:02:51 PM
Most Americans couldn't tell you the difference between wealth and income as well...
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: makattak on May 14, 2011, 10:38:43 PM
Most Americans couldn't tell you the difference between wealth and income as well...

Or debt and deficit.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: roo_ster on May 14, 2011, 11:22:23 PM
Megan McArdle has some good analysis on this topic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/roth-iras-safety-in-numbers/238839/


Quote
...Don't get me wrong; I think that Congress is going to go after all of it.  But Congress doesn't have to do anything special to get money out of traditional IRAs; it just has to raise income taxes.  (401ks and traditional IRAs are taxed at ordinary income tax rates).  Roth IRAs, on the other hand, represent a sizeable pool of tax-free assets.  I also expect that at some point, Congress is going to at least attempt to claw back the tax deduction for municipal bonds.

It is of course true that tax-free retirement savings have a long history in the US.  But they did in Ireland, too, and Ireland is now proposing to tax the bejeesus out of them...

...0.6% doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a pretty substantial tax on savings: putting money away costs you half a percentage point of your principal every single year.  The document says it's only meant to be temporary.  But for countries in Ireland's fiscal shape, "temporary" taxes have a way of becoming permanent.

This is the sort of thing that desperate governments do when they're having trouble accessing capital markets.  It was easy to write off Argentina's seizure of private pension funds in 2008; to paraphrase PJ O'Rourke, if Latin American finance were a soap opera--and it is--Argentina would be the spendthrift crack-addicted younger brother that uptight, ultra-respectable Mexico fights desperately to save.

But Ireland is another thing entirely--a model of fiscal rectitude whose budget surpluses were a shining example to the rest of us, now reduced to pilfering its citizens "tax free" private pension funds...

...And I don't think it's that farfetched that we could end up in somewhat similar circumstances--not exactly the same, obviously, but close enough for discomfort...



As they say, to mash the link and read in full.

Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 15, 2011, 03:35:25 AM
Except it is a tax not on principal, but on the contribution and interest. And it has not passed yet.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on May 15, 2011, 08:27:14 AM
And it has not passed yet.


buzz killer
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: mtnbkr on May 15, 2011, 08:31:15 AM
Except it is a tax not on principal, but on the contribution and interest. And it has not passed yet.

Since I'm already being taxed on my income and on a variety of other things, I would rather not add yet another tax to the list regardless of how benign it appears.

And I would rather not wait for it to be taxed.  It's harder to repeal laws than to block them to begin with.

I guess it's not a big deal to those who have nothing, but I'm not among that crowd.

Chris
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 15, 2011, 08:54:48 AM
And it has not passed yet. Even in Ireland.

You do not live in Ireland.
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Tallpine on May 15, 2011, 10:14:12 AM
The biggest single tax on 401Ks and all other savings will be hyperinflation  =(
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on May 15, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
And it has not passed yet. Even in Ireland.

You do not live in Ireland.


its quite remarkable,  not so much on this forum but on many its being touted as a fait accompli.  and the believers are most difficult to sway
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: Ron on May 16, 2011, 08:35:03 AM
Quote
Geithner, who has already suspended a program that helps state and local government manage their finances, will begin to borrow from retirement funds for federal workers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/treasury-to-tap-pensions-to-help-fund-government/2011/05/15/AF2fqK4G_story.html
Title: Re: Congress has twice talked about raiding 401k's...
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 16, 2011, 08:46:25 AM
Quote
Treasury secretaries have tapped special programs to avoid default six times since 1985.