Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on May 22, 2011, 12:52:35 PM
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Been watching Farscape on Netflix.
The intro credits bug me.
If you don't know WHERE in the Universe you are, or the breadth of the Universe, how can it be a "distant" part of it?
Put it into a global scale. For example, you live in Denver, CO. You get kidnapped, and wake up in a field. You have no idea where the field is. No signs, no civilization or structures around you. It could be Zimbabwe, it could be Tazmania, or it could be Kansas. You wouldn't call it "distant" until you know where Denver was in relation to where you are.
Crichton doesn't know where he is, and he doesn't know where Earth is. How can he be in a "distant" part of the Universe?
Sheesh.
[/vent]
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Put it into a global scale. For example, you live in Denver, CO. You get kidnapped, and wake up in a field. You have no idea where the field is. No signs, no civilization or structures around you. It could be Zimbabwe, it could be Tazmania, or it could be Kansas. You wouldn't call it "distant" until you know where Denver was in relation to where you are.
Or else you could be 70 miles east of Denver. It is amazing how empty it still is out there.
Of course, you can (sometimes) still see the Rockies from out there.
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If you don't know WHERE in the Universe you are, or the breadth of the Universe, how can it be a "distant" part of it?
The odds?
There's a lot more "far" in the Universe, then there is the small bubble of "near" (by any reasonable definition) that surrounds the Sol System.
So if you are dropped into some random location in the Universe, the overwhelming odds are that it's somewhere "far".
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Different constellations, "sun's" positions and timing, same with moons.
Like this:
http://cosmographica.com/gallery/portfolio3/albums/large/normal_108_Rhiannon.jpg
And distant is relative. To me, Denver-Aurora is a distant part of Colorado. In fact, anything south of Highway 6 might as well be Guatemala.
Y' know, the last time I brought up something like this on a forum, everybody was all over me for not "suspending reality." But two things that bother me in stories are anachronisms and plot holes.
Not that your instance is a plot hole, but I understand from where you're coming. Stuff like that just "thrown out" in a story can be jarring.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
Pic is an example of the art of Don Dixon, which you can Google to find more.
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Crichton's little space capsule wasn't capable of faster-than-light travel, was it?
He wasn't able to recognize even distorted constellations, was he?
In such a case, "distant" as a descriptor isn't out of line.
(Sheesh, here I am, defending a show I didn't even like very much and seldom watched after the first few episodes . . .)
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Download Celestia from shatters.net and travel even a few hundred light years from Earth. You will not be able to recognize any of our constellations.
In my current novel, one of the main characters is lost and is trying to find Earth with very few reference points. In fact, the only thing she recognizes are the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds, which are the only things that confirm for her that she's still in the same damn galaxy.
My biggest "Aha!" moment in BSG was when I recognized Orion and Lepus in the starfield. I really appreciated that detail, especially since they didn't draw attention to it. It was like a little gimme to observant viewers to let them know they were getting close to Earth.
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Download Celestia from shatters.net and travel even a few hundred light years from Earth. You will not be able to recognize any of our constellations.
In my current novel, one of the main characters is lost and is trying to find Earth with very few reference points. In fact, the only thing she recognizes are the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds, which are the only things that confirm for her that she's still in the same damn galaxy.
Exactly my point.
With no point of reference to work with, he could be a mere 200 LY away and in the same galaxy. Let alone a "distant part of the Universe." Yeah, that's out of range of Crichton's craptastic little module. But that would also apply if he was orbiting Mars somehow and wanted to go back to Earth. Depending on position, that would be between 50 million to 400 million miles. Relative child's play compared to interstellar or intergalactic travel. Anything more than 2 days' travel at 50k-mph (about 2.5 million miles, assuming infinite fuel) is out of the module's range due to insufficient life support capabilities. ;/ That's granting it the capability to achieve 50k-mph speeds.
"Unknown" is much more accurate than "distant."
"Distant" may be a single starburst-jump away for their ship in Farscape, if they just knew the direction to go. They (the advanced races) just don't know what or where "Earth" is.
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And while I'm certainly no physicist, I believe that if one jumps into a wormhole, he is going to come out somewhere that is bound by the reaches of the Galaxy from which he enters the wormhole.
Doesn't seem sensible to me at all, that a wormhole would allow intergalactic travel. Seems like it should be bound to the gravity well of its closest singularity, sun or at least its Galaxy.
So I operate under the assumption that Crichton is still in the Milky Way Galaxy, somewhere. A "distant" part of the Universe would certainly be outside of our Galaxy, but still in one that we knew and could see from Earth.
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And distant is relative. To me, Denver-Aurora is a distant part of Colorado. In fact, anything south of Highway 6 might as well be Guatemala.
Y' know, the last time I brought up something like this on a forum, everybody was all over me for not "suspending reality." But two things that bother me in stories are anachronisms and plot holes.
TeeVee and movie "skiffy" has never been real good with distance.
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In my current novel, one of the main characters is lost and is trying to find Earth with very few reference points. In fact, the only thing she recognizes are the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds, which are the only things that confirm for her that she's still in the same damn galaxy.
One of A. E. van Vogt's novels, I think it was Weapon Shops of Isher, has an amusing scene. The protagonist finds himself in a bit of a tight spot. He's (going on memory here) piloting an experimental starship, never flown before, and he's surrounded by his enemies. He thinks "Alpha Centauri is, umm, that-a-way.", points the prow into the southern sky, and floors it. By the time he stops, he recognizes nothing. His getting home finally involves the intervention of a spiderey higher power.
Download Celestia from shatters.net and travel even a few hundred light years from Earth. You will not be able to recognize any of our constellations.
Robert Heinlein makes much the same point in Orphans of the Sky, with regard to naked eye navigation within evan a well understood solar system. Mistaking Antares for Mars, because they're both fuzzy red dots, is a deadly error.
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Doesn't seem sensible to me at all, that a wormhole would allow intergalactic travel. Seems like it should be bound to the gravity well of its closest singularity, sun or at least its Galaxy.
You could probably duck through a plothole and come out in another galaxy ;)
But the anachronistic forces might tear your ship to pieces :O
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But what if he had a flux capacitor fully charged with chronistic forces?
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But what if he had a flux capacitor fully charged with chronistic forces?
Wouldn't that require a lot of time to charge up ???
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Wouldn't that require a lot of time to charge up ???
Nah, not when you just subvert it from the event horizon of any garden variety black hole.
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This is why mapping pulsars is handy. (And I'm surprised no one has mentioned them yet.)
Get lost? Hang a radio antenna out the window for a minute, pick out a few pulsars of specific discrete frequencies that you've already plotted while back on Earth and add a dash of distance calculation, a dollop of relativity and a sprinkle of trigonometry, blend well and let simmer, and a short time later you'll know where "here" is, and more importantly, which way to point yourself to get back "there."
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Aye, reference points outside of your own galaxy would make the best signposts, if you know how to find them. Crichton could have benefited from this system if he'd bothered to take that info with him on his test flight. It would have required a lot of assumptions on his part, to the point of risking deus ex machina by the writers, but then he wouldn't have gotten himself lost, just stranded.
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AZRedhawk44,
For what it's worth, your thinking of wormholes being local entry/exit ports is common, if incorrect. :)
Pick up a copy of Kip S. Thorne's "Black Holes and Time-Warps" for some fantastic, down to Earth reading on the subject.
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One of A. E. van Vogt's novels, I think it was Weapon Shops of Isher, has an amusing scene. The protagonist finds himself in a bit of a tight spot. He's (going on memory here) piloting an experimental starship, never flown before, and he's surrounded by his enemies. He thinks "Alpha Centauri is, umm, that-a-way.", points the prow into the southern sky, and floors it. By the time he stops, he recognizes nothing. His getting home finally involves the intervention of a spiderey higher power.....
"First star on the right, straight on 'til morning." [tinfoil]
And .... I think the Robinson Family had a similar problem in an even older TV series ....... [tinfoil] [popcorn] :angel:
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GPS. Problem solved. :P
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GPS. Problem solved. :P
Galactic Pulsar System? :P
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Galactic Pulsar System? :P
Indeed. That's why we put it on the Pioneer plaques. Although the odds are still almost infinitely higher someone from Earth in the next few centuries will step out and pick it up for recovery to go put it in the Tycho annex of the Smithsonian or something.
Also, the wayward traveler can also pick up on several other signposts to triangulate their position, such as certain energetic hypergiants and other phenomena like Cephid variables.
AZRedhawk44,
For what it's worth, your thinking of wormholes being local entry/exit ports is common, if incorrect. :)
Pick up a copy of Kip S. Thorne's "Black Holes and Time-Warps" for some fantastic, down to Earth reading on the subject.
Yah, they could pop out almost anywhere. And the Universe being 99.999999999999% empty intergalactic space, odds are one would dump you out somewhere rather devoid of anything interesting to do other than measure redshifts of other galaxies and clusters before you ran out of energy or life support.
The real problem with wormholes though, besides having no clue where one will take you is the almost astronomical amounts of energy it would take to "tweeze" one from the quantum background "fabric" or "foam" of space-time, then focus and force down it's gullet to get it to widen out to the macro scale so you could throw something in it, like a ship, . We're talking energy densities that will just as easily turn into a singularity/black hole on you. Plus, the disturbance of putting something into the wormhole will require even more insane amounts of energy to keep it open and stable.
We're talking the energy output of an entire star, maybe to open a wormhole big enough to be usable. And of course no one has any idea of how you'd manage that much energy should you be able to procure it.
Arthur C. Clarke once said that he thought Gamma Ray Bursters (gamma ray pulses we detect at intergalactic distances, even bigger than supernovae) might be evidence of really, really, really bad "industrial accidents". =D
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Yah, they could pop out almost anywhere. And the Universe being 99.999999999999% empty intergalactic space, odds are one would dump you out somewhere rather devoid of anything interesting to do other than measure redshifts of other galaxies and clusters before you ran out of energy or life support.
It does seem rather Improbable, doesn't it?
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"distant" means lost. You need better directions than "lost"? Shesh. Some people. ;-)
I liked the show, but it took a while to grow on me.
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If a guy was driving, he'd never ask for directions. [popcorn] :P
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If a guy was driving, he'd never ask for directions. [popcorn] :P
And Chrichton is ALL MAN.
Aeryn Sun? Eh... half-man... at least. (Runs for cover, Claudia Black was always a bit butch for my tastes. =D )
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If I recall, Chrichton is an astronaut. (I think I've seen the equivalent one episode of Farscape, total.)
As such, he should be familiar with stellar objects.
Can he not surmise that he is in a distant part of the universe if the galaxies he can see (aided, obviously) are unfamiliar?
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Astronauts are not necessarily astronomers, and unless he brought a full-color photo book of Messier objects (or has them loaded on a smart phone, PDA, etc), I would imagine he is crap out of luck.
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If I recall, Chrichton is an astronaut. (I think I've seen the equivalent one episode of Farscape, total.)
As such, he should be familiar with stellar objects.
Can he not surmise that he is in a distant part of the universe if the galaxies he can see (aided, obviously) are unfamiliar?
Actually, he wasn't just an astronaut/test-pilot, but was also the physicist who developed the wormhole tech. (his run in the module was not supposed to "work", just generate some low level er... pre-wormhole data to get some confirmation of his theories.)
So, yeah, a guy like that could probably be smart enough to look for a few notable galaxies/Messier objects or the Megelannic clouds using Moya's and Pilot's help to at least make an educated guess if he was still at least in the Milky Way. Even looking at the central black hole in the core might give him some clues. Even with our primitive 21st century tech we have "movies" of the stars orbiting the central black hole.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_uPcRV5hE&NR=1
On top of that, there's a few objects in the galaxy that are visible in some wavelength or another from most anywhere in the galaxy unless the core is directly in the way. A couple of starbursts due galactic north/south to get above/below the disk for a better view would make this even easier.
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Astronauts are not necessarily astronomers, and unless he brought a full-color photo book of Messier objects (or has them loaded on a smart phone, PDA, etc), I would imagine he is crap out of luck.
His little "module" probably had radar, laser rangefinding, and radio triangulation to the Space Shuttle from which it launched, and purely for re-docking purposes. There were computer systems in it, but they were specialized to the flight instruments he had and were not generalized Windows/Linux boxes against which he would have accidentally thrown in "Google Space" or some other mediocre program accidentally.
I doubt even the Space Shuttle launches with anything sophisticated enough to analyze the night sky and determine constellations. Unless one of the astronauts happens to bring his Android phone. ;/ The shuttles still launch with 486-era computers running everything. There may be payloads that contain more sophisticated equipment by accident... but I suspect the orbiter itself is blind to the stars and relies on GPS and ground-based radio telemetry.
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Aeryn Sun? Eh... half-man... at least.
Well, if you were married to this:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcrackers-matter.moonfruit.com%2Fcommunities%2F004%2F005%2F912%2F371%2Fimages%2F4514211864.jpg&hash=e9bf2ad02de38610f4740dea9929b5b812985ce8)
I don't doubt that you would find Aeryn Sun radiant.
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[barf] I thought "Predator" was bad ........ [tinfoil]
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I doubt even the Space Shuttle launches with anything sophisticated enough to analyze the night sky and determine constellations. Unless one of the astronauts happens to bring his Android phone. ;/ The shuttles still launch with 486-era computers running everything. There may be payloads that contain more sophisticated equipment by accident... but I suspect the orbiter itself is blind to the stars and relies on GPS and ground-based radio telemetry.
The space shuttle mounts two optical star trackers that is uses to calibrate the IMU's and correct them for drift.
http://www.ballaerospace.com/page.jsp?page=104
Various versions of these "electro-optical sextants" (my term) have been used regularly for the past half century of space flight, be it exploratory/commercial shots or sub-orbital/fractional orbit weapon systems.
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The space shuttle mounts two optical star trackers that is uses to calibrate the IMU's and correct them for drift.
http://www.ballaerospace.com/page.jsp?page=104
Various versions of these "electro-optical sextants" (my term) have been used regularly for the past half century of space flight, be it exploratory/commercial shots or sub-orbital/fractional orbit weapon systems.
Sweet. I am happy to be proven wrong. Very neat tech.
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Sweet. I am happy to be proven wrong. Very neat tech.
Yup, very neat stuff. And fictional story not withstanding, if Chrichton's pod had been carrying even one of the new, small, Star Trackers, such as from Ball Aerospace, it would already have the star catalogs stored on board.
Hmm, I wonder if I can get one for my truck? Suck it, Garmin! :D