Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: HankB on May 27, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
-
I heard on the radio that part of the Patriot Act were renewed by the Congress and sent to the President's desk, but that since he was out of town, the documents were signed via "autopen."
I remember Cheney (or was it Rumsfeld?) got criticized for using an autopen to sign condolence letters to the next of kin of servicemen who were killed in the line of duty . . . it's just a mechanical gizmo.
So . . . is it legal to replace POTUS with a robot when it comes to signing a bill into law? ???
-
ApOTUS ???
-
ToTUS has a pen attachment now?
-
ToTUS has a pen attachment now?
Winner.
-
So . . . is it legal to replace POTUS with a robot when it comes to signing a bill into law? ???
I'm OK with it, as long as the robot replaces the current POTUS for all other duties.
I bet he gives better speeches, too.
-
This seems like a manufactured issue to me. The important thing is his decision to veto it or to sign it, not how the signature is attached. And in any case, if he hadn't signed it, it would have become law anyway.
-
That may be true of some State Governors, but I believe the President not signing a bill is known as a "pocket veto." Oops. Incorrect. See Regolith's following post. Glad I used the cop-out "I believe."
For myself, as long as the electronic sig is secure and he directed an assistant to affix it to the documents, it's legit. I used to send important emails with my full name, and "(signed)" next to my sig.
Nobody ever bellyached about it, and if a notary were to ask if I acknowledged that as my signature, I'd have said yes.
Same kind of problem occured many years ago when real estate contracts began to be faxed back and forth and other electronic "short cuts" began to be taken in business. The law referred to "original signed copies" being given to the buyer or seller. Minor brouhaha about that until the Real Estate Commission, with certain cautious reservations, called acknowledged faxes and "Xeroxed" copies "duplicate originals," and mailed documents were considered to have been "placed in the channels of communication" when placed in the mailbox, hence effective at that point. (This all circa 1970s.)
A manufactured argument, as someone said. Might as well claim your electronically-taken fingerprints are not "fingerprints." Try that in court. (TIC)
But the question begs a discussion of all kinds of e-transmitted documents, images, etc.
"X" (Terry, 230RN, his signature.)
-
That may be true of some State Governors, but I believe the President not signing a bill is known as a "pocket veto."
Nope:
The U.S. Constitution limits the President's period for decision on whether to sign or veto any legislation to ten days (not including Sundays) while the United States Congress is in session. If the President does nothing during this period while Congress remains in session, the unsigned bill becomes law. However, if Congress cuts short this period by adjourning and the President does not sign the bill, then the bill dies. This latter outcome is known as the "pocket veto." Article 1, Section 7 of the U.S. Constitution states:
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a Law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a Law.
Since Congress cannot vote while in adjournment, a pocket veto cannot be overridden (but see below). James Madison became the first president to use the pocket veto in 1812.
-
Trifles, mere trifles I say.
Besides, Congress will be replaced with AI in another ten years.
-
Trifles, mere trifles I say.
Besides, Congress will be replaced with AI in another ten years.
Nonsense. Intelligence of any kind is not permitted on Congress.
-
Nonsense. Intelligence of any kind is not permitted on Congress.
Oh, Snapple.
-
Nonsense. Intelligence of any kind is not permitted on Congress.
:lol: :lol:
"All Congresses and Parliaments have a kindly feeling for idiots, and a compassion for them, on account of personal experience and heredity."
- Mark Twain
-
Trifles, mere trifles I say.
Besides, Congress will be replaced with AI in another ten years.
In that case AI would stand for Artificial Idiocy.
-
So . . . is it legal to replace POTUS with a robot when it comes to signing a bill into law? ???
The way I look at it, if no notary in their right mind would notarize the signature, then it shouldn't be legal. I could see a notary approving the use of an autopen to sign a whole stack of documents if the "signer" is present, but "phoning in a signature" is ridiculous.
-
Can the president, TOTUSp, use a limited power of attorney? Is that allowed, constitutionally speaking?
I used a power of attorney to sign my for my wife when she couldn't be present for our house closing paperwork. Is something like that available to TOTUSp?
-
Can the president, TOTUSp, use a limited power of attorney? Is that allowed, constitutionally speaking?
I used a power of attorney to sign my for my wife when she couldn't be present for our house closing paperwork. Is something like that available to TOTUSp?
It's called a delegation in this context, and there are lots of rules about what can and can't be delegated. Not sure what applies to this off the top of my head.
-
It's called a delegation in this context, and there are lots of rules about what can and can't be delegated. Not sure what applies to this off the top of my head.
Since it's a Constitutionally specified process, I wouldn't think that any change could be enacted without an Amendment. Thus, only Article 2 and Amendment 25 provide for a President's "Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office." Amendment 25 clarifies that he need only notify the President Pro Tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House in writing of his temporary inability to discharge the duties of his office in order for the Vice President to take up those duties. Being out of the country when the duty requires him to be physically present would certainly seem to qualify. (IMO, they should have written this to be automatically invoked whenever the President leaves the country. If nothing else, it would discourage a lot of the unnecessary trips. Unfortunately, since it was adopted in 1967, they really hadn't seen this trend of jetting off to Europe to party on the taxpayers' dime every couple of weeks.)
-
KD5NRH, the Constitution was not interpreted that way even by the people who participated in its writing. It's impossible to administer anything other than a small amazonian tribe without the ability to delegate powers that normally reside in a head office.
-
KD5NRH, the Constitution was not interpreted that way even by the people who participated in its writing. It's impossible to administer anything other than a small amazonian tribe without the ability to delegate powers that normally reside in a head office.
"Powers that normally reside in a head office" are not all Constitutionally granted to the President. That's a large part of what made this country unique. If he sticks to the actual Article 2 job description and the few other duties specified elsewhere in the Constitution, it should actually get kinda boring in peacetime.
-
"Powers that normally reside in a head office" are not all Constitutionally granted to the President. That's a large part of what made this country unique. If he sticks to the actual Article 2 job description and the few other duties specified elsewhere in the Constitution, it should actually get kinda boring in peacetime.
That's an entirely different matter, of course. But yes, executive power has grown substantially since the drafting of the Constitution.
-
That's an entirely different matter, of course. But yes, executive power has grown been stolen from the congress substantially since the drafting of the Constitution.
FTFY!!
-
Too many bills, too many foreign trips, too much "delegation."