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Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Lanius on June 04, 2011, 03:44:55 PM

Title: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 04, 2011, 03:44:55 PM
Hello

I'm not a soldier(nor can I ever be, for health related reasons), but I'm playing a rather tough and somewhat realistic turn-based wargame, specifically, the Steel Panthers World At War version 8.403 (enhanced)

Could anyone who is knowledgeable about the topic(bored soldiers, historians, etc) point me towards some book that outlines how to best fight german panzer units, if the forces at your disposal are some platoons of tanks, some armored infantry, combat engineers and some light artillery (xylophone rocket batteries, mortars)?

Or just answer a few questions, or give me a few pointers on how to play the game better? I think the game supposedly reflects WWII combat quite pretty well.

Right now, I've re-organized the battalion. Instead of separating infantry and tanks, I created 5 tank units that are accompanied by 4 halftracks each and some support -FO unit, AA halftrack, one medium mortar).

Equipment is whatever could be scrounged.. M4's, Wolverine AT guns, Stuarts (these are pretty good at scouting and taking out enemy transport)

I have three of these combined platoons.

I replaced the starting HQ unit with a command tank(you don't lose the game if you lose your headquarters unit, but it's bad, as it really impacts morale), and attached two other tanks to it, which I use as sort of reserve. Besides, every infantryman's memoir I've ever read claims they envied the tankers.

Each medium tank has a four man recon detachment riding on it. This is good for the situations where AT guns are found. After the first shot, everything halts, and recon goes down to take a good look at the enemy and then they can get back and report.

I also heavily use smoke dischargers and mortar smoke rounds. They are great at preventing long range fires from enemy tanks. Unless it's really windy... then it kind of sucks.

The battalion level artillery fires by platoons(5 mortars) . In the initial force purchase, I went rather heavy on the artillery and bought something like 15 81 mortars and some ammo carrier trucks for them.

Enemy static positions, like bunkers and AT guns are either blown to bits by mortars, or covered with smoke to render their fire ineffective and attacked by combat engineer infantry followed  by tanks, preferably from behind. I generally don't attack anything more substantial than a lone rifle squad without first softening it up.

Enemy tanks are usually lured into tighter spots, when they get there, they are suddenly hit with a pre-planned concentrated artillery barrage, which is followed by enveloping attacks by M4's and Stuarts. In wooded areas, infantry can also easily take out tanks buttoned up because of artillery, so I first hit them hard with artillery, then send some halftracks to let infantry out near the routes the tanks are liable to take while trying to get away from the artillery.

I also have some light recon units, 50. caliber technicals, and some M20 scout cars., which work really great at harrassing the enemy, recon, and taking over lightly defended positions.

So, any tips on how to improve these tactics?
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: seeker_two on June 05, 2011, 12:21:15 AM
In every tank game I've played, I'd just crash my tank into the side of the enemy tank and fire repeatedly until it was destroyed....worked every time.....of course, I died a lot, too....so I guess it would depend on your definition of "winning"....

....also probably explains why the 1st Armored Div. sent me a "Thank You" card for not joining the Army.....

Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Chuck Dye on June 05, 2011, 12:26:46 AM
I'm not much on movie quotes or consulting Hollyweird about  anything, but I immediately leapt to G. C. Scott as G. S. Patton:  something to the effect of "Rommel, you bastard, I read your book!" =D
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: De Selby on June 05, 2011, 01:11:37 AM
Is there any way to bring in a Mongol horde?  I'm pretty Mongol cavalry would wipe the floor with panzers
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 05:39:23 AM
MG34 and 42's make very short work of anything that's not armored in the open.

Cavalry can hardly take cover and is rather easy to hit.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Jamisjockey on June 05, 2011, 09:51:31 AM
Is there any way to bring in a Mongol horde?  I'm pretty Mongol cavalry would wipe the floor with panzers

 :lol:

Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: TommyGunn on June 05, 2011, 12:16:06 PM
Is there any way to bring in a Mongol horde?  I'm pretty Mongol cavalry would wipe the floor with panzers
:laugh: [ar15] [ar15] [ar15] [ar15] [popcorn] [popcorn]




Now I know why he thinks the Taliban is winning in A'stan.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: drewtam on June 05, 2011, 02:24:55 PM
Dive bombers and other ground attack aircraft are the best trump against armor, weather permitting. It doesn't sound like you have any of that in your mix. Limitation of the game, perhaps? If it is a limitation, then its not a realistic game :D

You might be able to lure the enemy into an ambush using several companies of light infantry and light mortar support. They (the light infantry) will need a tree line or some natural defense to slow the enemy attack. After the enemy is drawn into the opportunity of steam rolling some infantry with armor, your hidden armor comes in on a flanking attack with your preplanned artillery to cut them to ribbons.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 02:54:53 PM
They really rock. The only problem is the campaign designer chose to forbid 'buying' or requesting aircraft most of the time, so they're not available.

But the one time, at Mortain, I had like 8 aircraft, some Mustangs, a two marauders and lightnings.. that really rocked. On the level terrain, they destroyed something like 8 tanks and a half a dozen enemy halftracks.
Plus provided invaluable intelligence.

I mean, if I ever went back in time to 1930, I'd  try to totally convince some US army officers to support armored tactics by detailed explanations, throwing Panzer Leader at them, and maybe get them to get the army to fund helicopter gunship research.

Also, I wonder why US halftracks did not have multiple bazooka launchers mounted on top. A halftrack with two dozen bazooka tubes mounted on a swivel above the troop compartement could be pretty deadly against enemy armor in CQB.. cities, forests, etc. The whole assembly would weigh only 300 lbs or so, and if you launch 24 heat rockets against a single tank, even if you hit with just 6, the crew's gonna have a headache.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 03:58:19 PM
Hmm... just liberating Paris. I have some good reinforcement in the form of about 12 8 inch howitzers.

Now that is a real man's  gun.  =D  Well directed bombardement can easily take out stationary Panthers.. and indeed anything in the target area. And the morale effect..
And most amazingly, the boomers manning them seem to have a real knack for hitting within 50 m of the target.. and sometimes even right on top of the target.

Nothing is as sweet as 2 guys with a radio and binoculars directing a heavy artillery ambush on a slow moving enemy tank column. Direct hits by 8 inch howitzers usually destroy or immobilize tanks.

Man, I should have totally got some instead of the mortar tubes I have. Even though the howitzers are twice as expensive to requisition.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: White Horseradish on June 05, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
Is there any way to bring in a Mongol horde?  I'm pretty Mongol cavalry would wipe the floor with panzers
MG34 and 42's make very short work of anything that's not armored in the open.

Cavalry can hardly take cover and is rather easy to hit.
Modern day Mongol horde is armored. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FoDo3pALJg
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: kgbsquirrel on June 05, 2011, 04:15:44 PM
Modern day Mongol horde is armored.  :lol:

NIJ Lvl-IV barding?  :P
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 04:56:16 PM
Quote
Modern day Mongol horde is armored.  cheesy

Scheisse. The last time Mongol horde invaded Slovakia, only 30,000 people survived in the whole region, and the Hungarian king had to invite Germans to re-settle the region.
They basically burnt down everything that was wooden, pillaged everything that could be pillaged, and killed everyone they could. Which meant everyone who could not take refuge in some of the stone castles.

And now they have... armored vehicles? Darwin help us!
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: White Horseradish on June 05, 2011, 06:21:51 PM
Scheisse. The last time Mongol horde invaded Slovakia, only 30,000 people survived in the whole region, and the Hungarian king had to invite Germans to re-settle the region.
They basically burnt down everything that was wooden, pillaged everything that could be pillaged, and killed everyone they could. Which meant everyone who could not take refuge in some of the stone castles.

And now they have... armored vehicles? Darwin help us!
And the best part is, they still got that Mongol spirit.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MPRP_Burnt.JPG) is what the Communist Party headquarters looked like after the Mongols decided their victory in the election a couple of years ago was not quite on the up and up.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
Man... we could use some of that spirit in Moravia.

People around here, instead of taking up machetes and making molotov cocktails sit around, get drunk and keep talking about how it's all turning to *expletive deleted*it.
This country is so freaking civilized..
IMO, nothing like a good fire to lift one's spirits..
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: HankB on June 05, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
Scheisse. The last time Mongol horde invaded Slovakia, only 30,000 people survived in the whole region, and the Hungarian king had to invite Germans to re-settle the region.
They basically burnt down everything that was wooden, pillaged everything that could be pillaged, and killed everyone they could. Which meant everyone who could not take refuge in some of the stone castles . . .
Hmmm . . . can we point some Mongol hordes at Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and various and sundry sheikhdoms?
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 05, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
Mongols don't have much of an army, but I think war nerds around the world would cream their pants if China invaded any of these places...

I'd love see Saudi Arabia totally sacked by the Chinese. I mean, they are scary, but they can hack it. And Saudis deserve an asskicking like no one else.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: White Horseradish on June 05, 2011, 10:34:27 PM
Hmmm . . . can we point some Mongol hordes at Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and various and sundry sheikhdoms?

There is a small horde in Iraq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDoW18bPIZQ). They are with us. :)

Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: kgbsquirrel on June 05, 2011, 11:48:53 PM
There is a small horde in Iraq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDoW18bPIZQ). They are with us. :)

Holy crap, they're not only issued AK's, but they're taught to clean them properly too?  :P

On a more serious side, that's the first time I've seen the Mongols out and about and they certainly looked like they've got their stuff squared away.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 06, 2011, 05:42:45 AM
Hmm. Dunno why, but these Mongolian kids look like they ought to be wearing armor.  I mean, you can put armor on European 19-yr olds, but they will still look out of place in it. These mongols look really comfortable wearing armor and carrying weapons.

Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: White Horseradish on June 06, 2011, 08:15:43 AM
The only thing more traditionally Mongol than arms and armor I can think of is horses... :)

BTW, their girls can kick butt, too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw2J2Xn7lck).
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: seeker_two on June 06, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Both Mongolian videos show their troops fielding Dragunov sniper rifles....the Soviet Bloc was smart to invent the "designated marksman" part of their troop deployment before the Americans did....maybe you need to concentrate on using snipers to thin the tank driver herd when not in battle.....
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 07, 2011, 09:05:05 AM
Snipers are good at taking out crew-served weapons, over a longer period of time. (10-15 minutes). Crew will take cover and thus wont be able to fire that much.

Bazooka teams are better, if you know where an enemy tank attack is headed, the best idea is to set up a tank ambush from multiple sides of the route, and move a lot of bazookas into the area. At 50-100m hits on slow moving or stationary tanks are pretty doable.

I dont think the engine supports killing tank drivers or commanders peeking out of tanks. At least, I have never noticed that happen.
But the level of detail shown is low, so one would have to check whether the crew count in a vehicle has decreased by one.

Rifle fire on tanks makes the tankers take cover in their vehicle and thus they loose a lot of situation awareness.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: just Warren on June 07, 2011, 07:32:57 PM
I think the allies' strategy was lose five of ours for one of theirs. So at the battalion level count their tanks, multiply by five and hope to get a little lucky. 

For tactics I'd say.

1. Don't get hit.

2. Ambush.

3. Ambush.

4. Flank/rear assault.


Some combination of those four should do the trick.


Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Scout26 on June 08, 2011, 01:01:12 AM
Two things really helped the Americans, at least in Europe.

Artillery/Mortars and Airpower, and having them on-call at very low (Battalion/Company) levels.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: Lanius on June 08, 2011, 04:49:59 AM
Artillery works great, but air power is usually somewhere else. Campaign designers probably felt it is too powerful, or something.

At least the Germans usually don't have any, so the M16 Quad 50.cal halftracks can be used as very brutal infantry support. Dunno, but are 4.50 cal machineguns that better at taking out soft targets than one .30 caliber one? They really chop German infantry down, especially if it's in the open.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: De Selby on June 08, 2011, 01:30:13 PM
Artillery works great, but air power is usually somewhere else. Campaign designers probably felt it is too powerful, or something.

At least the Germans usually don't have any, so the M16 Quad 50.cal halftracks can be used as very brutal infantry support. Dunno, but are 4.50 cal machineguns that better at taking out soft targets than one .30 caliber one? They really chop German infantry down, especially if it's in the open.

That's all great, but it is a FACT that mongol archers could fire a deadly arrow up to 300 meters from the back of a bucking mongolian bronco.

50 cal versus mongol arrow?  The mongol arrow has no moving parts, flies as if animated by the spirit of Ghengis Khan, and has been known to leave a trail of death and destruction to mark every inch of land it passes over.

A 50 cal makes lots of noise and wastes valuable resources like lead and brass.  Save the lead and brass for paying tribute to the mongol war gods - you're going to need that once you try those 50 cal noisemakers against the raw power of a mongol army.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: roo_ster on June 08, 2011, 02:00:24 PM
That's all great, but it is a FACT that mongol archers could fire a deadly arrow up to 300 meters from the back of a bucking mongolian bronco.

50 cal versus mongol arrow?  The mongol arrow has no moving parts, flies as if animated by the spirit of Ghengis Khan, and has been known to leave a trail of death and destruction to mark every inch of land it passes over.

A 50 cal makes lots of noise and wastes valuable resources like lead and brass.  Save the lead and brass for paying tribute to the mongol war gods - you're going to need that once you try those 50 cal noisemakers against the raw power of a mongol army.

 =D

Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: 41magsnub on June 08, 2011, 02:07:54 PM
.50 is much better than a .30.  According to Internet lore even a near miss from a .50 is enough to turn a person inside out!  With a quad .50 it would turn them inside out, then back, inside out again, and then back to normal again.  The tissue damage from all this flipping back and forth is fatal but leaves the body intact so it does not violate the Geneva convention.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: kgbsquirrel on June 08, 2011, 02:23:30 PM
.50 is much better than a .30.  According to Internet lore even a near miss from a .50 is enough to turn a person inside out!  With a quad .50 it would turn them inside out, then back, inside out again, and then back to normal again.  The tissue damage from all this flipping back and forth is fatal but leaves the body intact so it does not violate the Geneva convention.


See, this is where all that misinformation in the wannabe/poser/fanboy originally came from, some actually knowledgeable folks BS'ing and joking.  :lol: 3:2 odds that the Brady campaign latches onto this thread and cites it as expert testimony and evidence in their campaign against .50's, I mean after all, they already knew that you could get heat seeking bullets for the .50, but that a near-miss can turn people inside out too!?
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: erictank on June 08, 2011, 05:55:56 PM

See, this is where all that misinformation in the wannabe/poser/fanboy originally came from, some actually knowledgeable folks BS'ing and joking.  :lol: 3:2 odds that the Brady campaign latches onto this thread and cites it as expert testimony and evidence in their campaign against .50's, I mean after all, they already knew that you could get heat seeking bullets for the .50, but that a near-miss can turn people inside out too!?

Someone's gonna have to sign up with the Bradys to monitor them, so we can know when they announce that little "factoid"... ;/
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: kgbsquirrel on June 08, 2011, 07:56:30 PM
Someone's gonna have to sign up with the Bradys to monitor them, so we can know when they announce that little "factoid"... ;/

I nominate Fistful to be the human sacr---err undercover Brady monitor.
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: erictank on June 08, 2011, 08:01:47 PM
I nominate Fistful to be the human sacr---err undercover Brady monitor.

Hey, Fistful!  What's your email address?  I need to... ummm... send you something, yeah, that's it!   =D
Title: Re: Armor and combined arms tactics on the battalion level?
Post by: seeker_two on June 08, 2011, 09:23:30 PM
.50 is much better than a .30.  According to Internet lore even a near miss from a .50 is enough to turn a person inside out!  With a quad .50 it would turn them inside out, then back, inside out again, and then back to normal again.  The tissue damage from all this flipping back and forth is fatal but leaves the body intact so it does not violate the Geneva convention.

You forgot one part.....it also shoots through schools.....  :cool: