Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Lanius on June 06, 2011, 05:26:53 AM
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to suggest that general intelligence, which is an adaptive* trait(one that often governs how well an entity survives), may not be equally well developed in all populations of men? I mean, it's far harder to survive in the steppes than to survive in some pleasant, tropical place that has lots of rain and shine and where stuff grows easily and the chief problem is to keep the monkeys from eating it.
It's also freaking obvious that Jews are someone's chosen people. According to IQ** tests, most of them have higher verbal intelligence, supposedly it's about 115 on average, at least in European Jews. Now, I don't feel threatened by that, as my general intelligence is nearly one standard deviation higher, supposedly... but it is a damned interesting thing to think about.
The explanation is either that during their millenia long history, Jews who couldn't hack the tora were shamed and maybe cast out, or that during the middle ages, when Jews in Europe were banned from agriculture and restricted to trade and money-lending, the smart ones were far better at these occupations, which enabled them to support bigger families. This went on for centuries.
If you're interested in the technical side of that debate, google ashkenazi intelligence and plenty of articles will come up.
Another group of geneticists claim it may have been founder's effect, that most of European Jews today are descended from a small population of Jews who were probably smart.
There is also the fact that Jews suffer from a lot of interesting genetical diseseas akin to sickle cell anemia in that they're thought to be related to their higher intelligence, but sometimes are fatal.
The diseases are neural system related(Tay Sachs disease for example), and only express themselves if there's an unlucky match(in plain-speak). It's thought that these diseases are caused by rapid evolution that had happened to Jews back whenever it was they've gotten so smart..
I've gotten banned from places just for pointing out Jews are smarter, which... is chanelling 2nd Lt. Obvious due to the number of geniuses their tribe has produced.. but really. But these were mostly crypto-antisemitic places ran by New-Zealand survivalist libertarian types.
Most people don't know about it, but in the past, certain elite US schools had Jew quotas, so they only took a certain number of Jews in each year, which kind of reminds me that today, certain US schools supposedly don't take people by merit, but also have racial quotas on asian-americans and other fanatical student types.
**yeah, I know they don't really measure anything, but it seems they correlate pretty well with stuff like SAT results, personal income, the chance to end up in prison and distaste towards hip hop and rap music and one's ability to write anything useful quickly in C++
*I may be off here, but anyway, it's obvious general intelligence is useful. For some things, like mathematics or physics or programming or indeed anything worthwhile
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So.....you're saying that the Jews are the Master Race?..... =|
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I don't think it racist to believe that one "race" of people, on average, have a certain set of characteristics that are better or worse than those same characteristics in other races.
For example, Kenyans (and West Africans in general) are AMAZING at distance races. Looking at the list of marathon winners across the world bears that out.
Racism only comes from thinking that a person is inferior, that is, worth less than some other person, and deserving of fewer rights based on their having that set of characteristics that make up a "race."
Unfortunately, many liberals believe that thinking the "races" are different must necessarily mean you think certain "races" are inferior and others superior. (Works that way with the sexes as well.)
Thus, if you believe that any certain race (or sex)possesses, on average, any advantage or disadvantage, you are a racist (sexist). (Exception: Unless you think "disadvantaged" minorities (or women) have advantages over majorities (or men). Then you are enlightened.)
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Also, this reveals the liberal belief system.
It's not just any characteristic that makes you a racist (sexist). It is generally having to do with intelligence. If you think a non-disadvantaged race (or men) has some advantage in some aspect of intelligence, you are a racist (sexist.)
Thus, liberals believe that people of lower intelligence are inferior. I reject that notion.
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I don't think it racist to believe that one "race" of people, on average, have a certain set of characteristics that are better or worse than those same characteristics in other races.
For example, Kenyans (and West Africans in general) are AMAZING at distance races. Looking at the list of marathon winners across the world bears that out.
Another example would be the Sherpas whose culture thrives at altitudes at which I'd keel over from hypoxia.
To Lanius, if the capacity of other physical attributes can be directly linked to one's genetic composition (and thus one's lineage) it would be reasonable to presume the same would hold true for brain development and thus intelligence. That a vociferous group of dubious intent have striven to make such a concept distasteful and un-PC through the disingenuous application of the label of racism is neither here nor there because, as Makattak said, the stating of a physical fact based on empirical evidence is not the defining factor of racism but is instead the baseless and supercilious contempt held for those of differing descent and any definitive actions derived there-of.
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Sowell's "Ethnic America" has a fascinating section on Jews:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-America-History-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465020755
If I remember the book correctly, around 100+ years ago Jewish immigrants were on average the poorest, most uneducated, had the lowest IQs and the highest birthrate of all immigrant groups.
My how that changed!
He goes into great detail about the cultural practices of Jews that allowed them to thrive in the USA.
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Brain development is known to also hinge on a group's social status, and even the quality of their food.
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Brain development is known to also hinge on a group's social status, and even the quality of their food.
I would expect that physical development would hinge on the quality and quantity of food as well...
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Brain development is known to also hinge on a group's social status, and even the quality of their food.
Then how'd we do so well on cow tongue, jellied carp and no bacon????
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"Racist" is mainly a codeword for Neoliberals declaring the debate to be over and themselves to be the winners on whatever topic when they've been beaten or baffled by the logic.
(So when racial prejudice really occurs, everybody just rolls their eyes and think the liberals are being ignorant again.)
Neoconservatives are just as bad, but different. They want to be Hitler, but a good Hitler this time.
Classic Liberals, Paleoconservatives, and Libertarians (IMHO) have a lot in common.
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So.....you're saying that the Jews are the Master Race?..... undecided
Not really. Nazis and Islamists think so.. that Jews are always conspiring or actually control everything, but it does not seem likely.
I would say that the master race will arise when the oligarchs who wield great influence in western societies decide that their progeny should recieve some genetical engineering that would give them superior abilities. Quite possible, because only the richest people can afford the cutting edge in medical technologies.
Thus, liberals believe that people of lower intelligence are inferior. I reject that notion.
Well, we can always say who is superior and who is inferior in some area, like that Jews are much better at Chess than say, African americans.
Some cultures are superior to others. For example, compare the Japanese and Nigerians. Sure, Japanese have a lot of issues, but they are world class in many industries and are doing okay. Nigeria is only world class in corruption and maybe 419 scams.
But the thing is, nothing is static, and for example, some hundreds of years ago Germans had a bad reputation, were thought unreliable and stupid, whereas these days you can hardly find a more orderly country. Shame about their Greens though.
Brain development is known to also hinge on a group's social status, and even the quality of their food.
Hmm. Iodide deficiency is dangerous, and also, supposedly seafood slightly raises intelligence because it contains stuff that does good to the neural system.
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I'd venture it has a lot to do with the Jews being a race that values and strives for education. I believe if you grow up in an educated household you are much more likely to have an enhanced affinity for educating yourself.
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That's true, it is likely a factor, but it looks very likely it's not just that, as intelligence is heritable, partially.
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I'd venture it has a lot to do with the Jews being a race that values and strives for education. I believe if you grow up in an educated household you are much more likely to have an enhanced affinity for educating yourself.
Certainly true in Ashkenazi households.
A pair of Jewish mothers are watching their children play in the park.
'So,' - one asks - 'How old are your kids?'
'Well, the lawyer is seven years old. The doctor is five.'
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I would imagine that if you took an accurate cross section of most any ethnic group you would find the curve of less smart to more smart would be about the same for all.
Then you might compare it further to the curve of highly educated vs uneducated and see if there is any correlation between that and the "smartness" curve.
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less smart to more smart would be about the same for all.
That's true. The kicker is, ethnics or nations don't have the same 'average' IQ.
Average IQ for Jews, if they are given the same test as non jewish white Americans is supposedly 115. Chinese average(in China) seems to be 105.
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Then you might compare it further to the curve of highly educated vs uneducated and see if there is any correlation between that and the "smartness" curve.
Reverse causation.
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"For example, Kenyans (and West Africans in general) are AMAZING at distance races. Looking at the list of marathon winners across the world bears that out."
Hunh! I've been betting on the skinny dark colored dogs in the last race (marathon) at the dog track for years. Mostly lose. :facepalm: No correlation between skinny and dark for distance runners. [popcorn] =D
Sorry, couldn't resist. Now I'll go back and read the rest of the thread. :P
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Average IQ for Jews, if they are given the same test as non jewish white Americans is supposedly 115
Anybody that knows me knows I can't resist saying,,, >:D
All that proves is the Jews are secretly in control and the tests are written by Jews so that Jews will inherently score higher than everybody else and it's all part of their grand scheme to claim their superiority above all the other races on Earth even though they are just cheating. :angel:
No really, IQ tests for one can be biased, even unintentionally. So are virtually invalid when compared across various ethnic groups. Beyond that I would again like to be able to compare the curve of these IQ tests with the curve of the education level of the subject group. For example if you take 100 random Jews and 100 random non Jews chances are the Jews will have an overall higher education level. Just a guess on my part of course. Could depend on what area you're getting your people from too. Here in West hartford the Jewish population are all highly educated. Rye, NY however, You'll find a much more middle class jewish population. i wonder how those two groups would measure up against each other.
Although I will say, I'm an Eyetalian and in HS I measured 130 junior year and 131 senior year. Graduated 1975. Since then I have gotten a 4 year degree among doing a bunch of other things. A few years back I took an online IQ test and scored,,, 131. I'm not sure what that says but I thought it was interesting
MENSA wants me but I'm just a little too smart to give them my money. :laugh:
I know! We're going to need government funding to reserch this further!.
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No really, IQ tests for one can be biased, even unintentionally. So are virtually invalid when compared across various ethnic groups. Beyond that I would again like to be able to compare the curve of these IQ tests with the curve of the education level of the subject group. For example if you take 100 random Jews and 100 random non Jews chances are the Jews will have an overall higher education level. Just a guess on my part of course. Could depend on what area you're getting your people from too. Here in West hartford the Jewish population are all highly educated. Rye, NY however, You'll find a much more middle class jewish population. i wonder how those two groups would measure up against each other.
Again, you're likely mixing up the causation relationship. Higher intelligence is very likely to be the cause of pursuing more education.
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Lanius,
All I know is that English is not your first language. What's your country of origin?
What I can say though is that in America, these differences (that everyone KNOWS exist) between different racial/ethnic groups are "racist" is because the Political Correctness movement, Political Left, and Mainstream Media have decided that discussing or acknowledging these differences is "racist".
More culturally/ethnically homogeneous countries like Japan and other Asian nations, some European nations (at least, until recently) don't have as many, or any minority groups trying to leverage political power through professional indignation and professional victimhood. So sometimes these differences are discussed more openly and bluntly.
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Country of origin? I was born in Czechoslovakia.. a nation that, sadly, no longer exists. Idiots [ar15]
No really, IQ tests for one can be biased, even unintentionally.
Jewish superiority is evident elswhere. Were Jews equally smart as other ethnics, the share of exceptionally gifted Jews would be markedly lower.
How come an ethnic with .5% population has produced what.. 25-30% of all physics nobel prize winners?
And I don't think it's just about 'education'. You can't really educate people beyond their level of intelligence..
See more here:
http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html
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Again, you're likely mixing up the causation relationship. Higher intelligence is very likely to be the cause of pursuing more education.
Yes but higher education may also lead to higher intelligence in regards to if you grow up in an educated household you are more prone toward developing a higher intelligence. I'm saying environment has a hand in there as well.
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Most of the truly smart people that I have encountered in life, usually did not have much of a formal education from institutional schools. My father, for one, made it through 10th grade, yet when he died in his 90's, had taught himself and had very good grasp of advanced math and was reading and understanding quantum mechanics, general relativity and string theory. He also was well read in history, sociology and had many talents in wood working, drawing, painting and welding among other things. (I must have been adopted :facepalm: =D)
Many of the truly inventive and intuitive people I've known were tradesmen. Successful people in sales have to be bold, not smart. I'm not slighting those in medicine and associated sciences, for example, for whom a structured education is necessary. Although a medical education could be thought of as a trade school. The research end of medicine is another horse.
As for Jews, in my mind they took advantage of a world that mostly reviled them, interfered with them, stole from them, killed them and generally put them in a position that they either excelled or else......In other words, they built a culture of hard work and success. Other cultures are notable for abject failure and self hatred when confronted with the same circumstance.
My money is on the fact the one's culture has more to do with individual and group success than IQ.
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Okay... We've got someone living in a desert. It's hot, it's nasty, they hate it. Why don't they move? They don't know...
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Yes but higher education may also lead to higher intelligence in regards to if you grow up in an educated household you are more prone toward developing a higher intelligence. I'm saying environment has a hand in there as well.
That would make sense with regards to the nurturing portion of my thoughts Nature & Nurture* in so much as the child is more likely to be exposed to beneficial experiences while the brain is still undergoing significant development (far more than the brain of a 30 year old for example), however past the formative years I would pose that education merely expands the bulk of the stored knowledge a person possesses, rather than increases a persons innate abilities of deduction, reasoning, and the accuracy and capacity of memory.
*My thoroughly unscientific and personal thoughts on Nature and Nurture with regards to human intelligence. Nature: the specific construction and composition of the brain due to genetically inherited traits, ie the blueprint for that organ locked in their DNA. Nurture: improved nutrition and educational experiences during the first years of life that promote development of neural connections and such that improve cognitive function in various categories.
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I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.
I think all I'm really trying to say is it sounds a little too pat for me to generalize and say "Jews are smarter" because of a genetic predisposition. I may not be saying it right though. I thnk the evironment they grow up in also has an effect. I'd like a way to figure that in as well as the idiosyncracies of IQ tests vs various ethnic groups before I were to make such a statement. Nearly impossible I would think.
Like this, take two random but ordered samplings of 100 lets say. Jewish v non Jewish Americans. Ordered by income. 25% $500,000 or more, 25% $250,000, 25% $100,00 and 25% less than $100,000 per year or something along those lines. Give them all the same IQ test, see if the Jewish folk score better.
That, I believe, would provide somewhat more accurate results.
The hard part will be finding 25 Jews around here that make less than $100,000 per year. Yea, I said it. :O
=D :angel:
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I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.
Studies of twins raised separately suggests your premise is mistaken.
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Studies of twins raised separately suggests your premise is mistaken.
What sort of differences in their environment were noted in the studies? (Differences in nutrition, parental encouragement, access to instructional materials, etc.)
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Right, show me twins that were raised on opposite sides of the spectrum and the results of testing done on them.
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MENSA wants me but I'm just a little too smart to give them my money. :laugh:
Ditto. I'm fairly certain that was the common sense portion of their entrance test. :lol:
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MENSA to me seems like one of them circle-J routines. And it takes money to join ;/ ?
The problem with IQ tests is, that you can 'learn' to do better to do on them. At least, one of my father's colleagues, a mathematician turned software analyst, tried it, and managed to 'raise' his IQ from ~130 to ~155 over a few months of infrequent practice.
Sure, there is a good correlation between IQ test results and other things, but the membership of MENSA likely takes the whole thing too seriously, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of them practice them test thingies.
Whereas I got a straight very good percentile on a kind of test I've never seen before, which doesn't make me eligible for Mensa, nevertheless, it's always nice to see something of mine is rated 'superior to very superior'.
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MENSA to me seems like one of them circle-J routines. And it takes money to join ;/ ?
Okay... for someone complaining that English is his third language... you seem to have your idioms down pat. :laugh:
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I have a rather high verbal IQ ;) That and lots of practice. On the last count, the number of fiction books I've read in English was around 230+.
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I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.
Early years are very important. There's evidence that children who are neglected in the first several years of life are worse off, I think.
Also, having a mother who doesn't like you can eff people up. One of my blood relatives, an uncle, is a 'mistake(contraception failed, is my guess)', that is, he was born to a conceited and ambitious woman(she was also very capable) while she was studying at a university. He's a very weird person, prone to violent rages, sudden mood swings and sulking. His brothers(10 yrs older) are well adjusted adults who have some shortcomings, but are mostly good company.
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I have a rather high verbal IQ ;) That and lots of practice. On the last count, the number of fiction books I've read in English was around 230+.
I'm sorry, around here we calculate the number of books we have read in linear feet. I'm at a mere 35 myself. Some around here are way past that. Yea, we're scary. :O
:laugh:
Yes, The only people smarter than a MENSA member are the ones that qualified but didn't give them any money. ;)
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Hmm.. the average English book I've read is abour 1.2 inches thick. 230 * 1.2 is 230 + 46 = 276 inches, or mere 23 linear feet. I have no idea how many Czech or Slovak books I've read though.
Still, I'm barely in my mid twenties, and most people say I have the common sense of an eleven year old..
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Still, I'm barely in my mid twenties, and most people say I have the common sense of an eleven year old..
I'd call this an improvement on most adults I know.
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So, Lanius. Welcome aboard. Are you still in Czek or in the Florida Keys?
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I'd call this an improvement on most adults I know.
Not sure where I come in on that. lol
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Why should I be in the Florida Keys? It's a nice place sure, but I don't have the money to just jaunt over to the US.
Wish I had, but the damned commies made sure I won't have a trust fund back in 1948 and in 1921 too. [ar15]
I'm pissed. It's better to be a slacker/engineering student if you can slack in style and can afford steaks.
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We spend the winter in Key West and there are a lot of young people from Czek who live and work in the Keys. Just wonder how you found APS outside the USA.
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We spend the winter in Key West and there are a lot of young people from Czek who live and work in the Keys. Just wonder how you found APS outside the USA.
The internet is a series of tubes...
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all connected by Al Gore...
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...who is constantly looking for tubettes. :P
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I was on THR a bit, on and off. Then started posting more on GRM, and then went here.
I'm also posting a bit on certain Czech forums, but people there are no fun. I mean, on GRM, moderators derail discussions, and on Czech forums, even being slightly offtopic gets you banned for a month. A german disease.
I also follow Oleg's photography a bit, hoping I may be inspired. I have a DSLR, and can almost use it..
I'll go see the US, once the dollar really crashes and money earned here will be like gold there. By that time, I should have some stashed away and will have more reasons to travel.
My grandfather used to say how Czechoslovak Crowns were as good as pounds back in the 1930's. Czechoslovakia was the only remaining capitalist democracy in central Europe back then..
Too bad McArthur or Patton wasn't US president back in 1948. Maybe the Soviets'd have blinked and left us alone.
Patton, IMO,'d have been a superb president. That man was no bullshitter. Shame that Stalin had him iced.
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So back on topic.
Let's suppose we agree that not all human groupings by ethnic or religion have equal average intelligence?
What shall be done about it? Dumb down others? Let it remain that way? Doesn't that mess up with equality of chances?
Should one day certain groups be genetically engineered or bred to be smarter? Are there too many smart people?
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I have no doubt at all that when grouped by religion, race, favorite type of underwear, or what have you, there are variances in group intelligence. But seeing as people are people, there will always be outliers for even groups with the poorest showing. I've also no doubt that there is variance over time, further enforcing that looking at people as individuals rather than merely group members is the best way to go about life.
And of course there is a wide number of types of intelligence. I know I'd rather have someone with common sense about than an ivory tower type.
So sayeth Ned Hamford, Esq. =D
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The scientists I know have a lot of common sense.
I mean, you can't be teach at an engineering school and be stupid. That's like swimming if one is a non-metaphorical basket case. Possible, but very short-lived.
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Too bad McArthur or Patton wasn't US president back in 1948. Maybe the Soviets'd have blinked and left us alone.
Patton, IMO,'d have been a superb president. That man was no bull*expletive deleted*ter. Shame that Stalin had him iced.
Wrong superpower, chief.....think closer to home..... :cool:
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The more I read about Patton, the more I like him.
Especially his quote.. if everyone's thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking..
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Wrong superpower, chief.....think closer to home..... :cool:
I think he was implying that Stalin arranged the auto accident that killed Patton. *shrug*
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Supposedly, OSS arranged the auto accident, using an agent of theirs named Douglas Bazata, who wrote about it into a diary that he gave before he died to a historian. Stalin then had agents finish off Patton, as he seemed to be recovering in hospital.
His death stinks far more than Kennedy's. Kennedy was shot on camera several times by a marine. I mean, don't they have these stupid signs at USMC signs how no one is more dangerous than a marine with a rifle? As if miniguns didn't exist or something..
Patton was in a low-speed auto accident where the other people didn't get hurt at all, seemed to recover and then died suddenly. Faking a pulmonary embolism isn't that hard, I believe.
I'd love to know how it really was. Any historians around to poke holes? What kind of reputation does the historian who wrote the book has got?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3869117/General-George-S.-Patton-was-assassinated-to-silence-his-criticism-of-allied-war-leaders-claims-new-book.html
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Supposedly, OSS arranged the auto accident, using an agent of theirs named Douglas Bazata, who wrote about it into a diary that he gave before he died to a historian. Stalin then had agents finish off Patton, as he seemed to be recovering in hospital.
I'd love to know how it really was. Any historians around to poke holes? What kind of reputation does the historian who wrote the book has got?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3869117/General-George-S.-Patton-was-assassinated-to-silence-his-criticism-of-allied-war-leaders-claims-new-book.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3869117/General-George-S.-Patton-was-assassinated-to-silence-his-criticism-of-allied-war-leaders-claims-new-book.html)
I doubt the KGB had anything to do with it....this was an in-house job, and Wild Bill Donovan wasn't one to leave a job undone....