Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Waitone on June 08, 2011, 04:12:39 PM
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http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2011/06/08/usmc-to-us-army-you-cant-use-our-camo-army-to-usmc-the-h-we-cant/#more-126768
I just love it when the taxpayer gets hosed when government parties squabble.
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:facepalm:
There is something highly amusing tho in asserting that the USMC wants to be noticed and distinguishable by the camouflage it wears.
:lol:
Uncle Sams Misguided Children indeed
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Yes, it's not as if the Army or any other branch would want the USMC globe-n-eagle that's hidden in the design. ;/
Maybe the Army can give the Marines all their berets. =D
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Wow, not too long after they fully rolled out the ACUs.
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Didn't the marine core soldiers =D wear the same woodland pattern BDU's as all the other branches for the longest time?
If I have any annoyance in this process it is the Army is AGAIN F'ing around with uniforms. What is this? The 3rd major change in the last decade?
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Wow, not too long after they fully rolled out the ACUs.
Didn't the marine core soldiers =D wear the same woodland pattern BDU's as all the other branches for the longest time?
If I have any annoyance in this process it is the Army is AGAIN F'ing around with uniforms. What is this? The 3rd major change in the last decade?
Yeah, this is supposed to be the ARMY, not some high school chick who refuses to wear the same outfit twice.
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Wow, not too long after they fully rolled out the ACUs.
The ACU's were a good idea in theory, but absolutely sucked in actual field use. Well, I guess except if you were standing in front of light grey/green gravel. They were way to bright/light for many vegetations, and too gray-green for most deserts/sands/rocks etc. I think ACU sucks in daylight so bad, because they also gave significant score weight to how they looked under NVD's in near-IR too. Although right now, the people we're fighting don't have much in the way of NVD assets. Although the Chinese would... [tinfoil]
Multicam was much better, at least in the varied terrain of Afghanistan, but I guess it's "too expensive" for some reason. (licensing issues?) So only SPECOPS or whatever gets to have it.
So perhaps MARPAT was kind of close to multicam, and with a .gov entity owning the rights to the design, there should (in theory) be no licensing issues.
I don't think anyone will truly be happy with camouflage until nanotech chameleon/squid cromaphore cloth is perfected.
The one that makes me want to LOL is the new navy "camo". First time I saw an off-duty enlisted rating walking in the local mall, I was floored by how indigo/purple it is. So I guess the idea is to make it HARDER to see you in the water if you uh... fall off a ship or something. :facepalm:
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Why doesn't the Army one-up the Marines and choose Multi-cam instead? :P
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Why doesn't the Army one-up the Marines and choose Multi-cam instead? :P
I think my suggestion above that Multicam (TM) has licensing costs associated with it was NOT correct.
http://www.multicampattern.com/manufacturers
Do I need to license MultiCam® to use it on my products?
No. No license is required to purchase MultiCam® materials.
I dunno. Although we do know the .MIL makes any number of non-rational decisions. Such as: "The troops want Multicam" so we'll give them something else just to show them who's boss."
Or like the now famous sandbagging the Ordnance Corps gave the AR-15 during it's initial testing, like refusing to lube them etc.
Or even after adoption, like MacNamara ordering the use of surplus ball powder for 5.56 production, even though it was known that IMR rod poweder was needed for proper cyclic rate and cleaner operation of the direct impingment gas system.
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The Navy camo should be gray so the enemy can't see the sailors walking around on the ship =D
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I think my suggestion above that Multicam (TM) has licensing costs associated with it was correct.
http://www.multicampattern.com/manufacturers
Yeah that was my understanding as well. Ironic that the ACUs were supposed to save money over the multicam, but will ultimately have cost more to roll out and then replace with something better.
One thing that amazes me about the ACUs is how quickly they fade and become really light colored. I remember the commissaries having signs next to the laundry detergents that were "ACU friendly" :facepalm:
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The Navy camo should be gray so the enemy can't see the sailors walking around on the ship =D
:P
Why not just totally automated ships, with people working from home over the Internet? It would really cut down on logistical costs, and might even reduce the need for daycare expenditures on military bases.
Yeah that was my understanding as well. Ironic that the ACUs were supposed to save money over the multicam, but will ultimately have cost more to roll out and then replace with something better.
One thing that amazes me about the ACUs is how quickly they fade and become really light colored. I remember the commissaries having signs next to the laundry detergents that were "ACU friendly" :facepalm:
I had to go back and edit to add "NOT correct" I missed typing it, completely changing the tone of what I was going to say. :facepalm:
Me? I have a quasi version of multi-cam in my SHTF/riot/TEOTAWAKI gear. It's a mix of OD, desert tan, ACU gray/green, coyote brown, whatever was cheap, but decent quality. All blended together with a smattering of WMBD (Walter Mitty Basement Dust... ) and American Obesity Epidemic sweat.
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Why not just totally automated ships, with people working from home over the Internet? It would really cut down on logistical costs, and might even reduce the need for daycare expenditures on military bases.
Why do you want to put innocent divorce lawyers out of a job?
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Why do you want to put innocent divorce lawyers out of a job?
They could all move over to personal injury law, and class-action work. That should really provide a boost to the American economy, right? =D
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It would really cut down on logistical costs, and might even reduce the need for daycare expenditures on military bases.
Are you saying the Navy needs day care to keep its sailors in check when in port? =D
There were times we could have used that in the Army for some of the idiots while in garrison....
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Yes, it's not as if the Army or any other branch would want the USMC globe-n-eagle that's hidden in the design. ;/
Maybe the Army can give the Marines all their berets. =D
Gotta have something to wipe with, right?
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The one that makes me want to LOL is the new navy "camo". First time I saw an off-duty enlisted rating walking in the local mall, I was floored by how indigo/purple it is. So I guess the idea is to make it HARDER to see you in the water if you uh... fall off a ship or something. :facepalm:
My ship (USS Iwo Jima LHD7) was used as a testing platform for the new uniforms back in 2004. We had the MCPON on board for a press event regarding the matter. The whole concept was to produce a new working uniform that A: lasted much longer than the current utilities (which were designed to only last 6 months of hard use) and B: were more presentable even after being worked in. In the MCPON's exact words, "the CNO and I told the designers that we wanted a uniform that sailors could crawl through the bilge, then roll around on the flight deck, and lean up against something the boatswains just painted, and then stand in ranks with other sailors and not be able to tell them apart." Basically, it's less camo against enemy sighting than camo against stains from the course of one's usual work. :P
The Navy camo should be gray so the enemy can't see the sailors walking around on the ship =D
Actually it is. =D The four colors are haze gray, deck gray, black (the three most used paint colors on the ship) and navy blue.
As to the Army, seriously they would have been better sticking with the jungle and 3 color desert patterns in modernized cut and cloth. I used to heckle some of the 10th Mountain guys in Afghanistan that if Mister Taliban ever started sniping us I'd be just fine in my DCU's. :lol:
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My ship (USS Iwo Jima LHD7) was used as a testing platform for the new uniforms back in 2004. We had the MCPON on board for a press event regarding the matter. The whole concept was to produce a new working uniform that A: lasted much longer than the current utilities (which were designed to only last 6 months of hard use) and B: were more presentable even after being worked in. In the MCPON's exact words, "the CNO and I told the designers that we wanted a uniform that sailors could crawl through the bilge, then roll around on the flight deck, and lean up against something the boatswains just painted, and then stand in ranks with other sailors and not be able to tell them apart." Basically, it's less camo against enemy sighting than camo against stains from the course of one's usual work.
That makes sense. It's also good that the new utility uniforms look a lot less like some kind of prisoner clothing. =)
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That makes sense. It's also good that the new utility uniforms look a lot less like some kind of prisoner clothing. =)
Funny you should mention that. Some of my utilities were labeled "Manufacturer: Fort Leavenworth" :police:
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“The main concern for the Marine Corps when it comes to other services testing our patterns is that they don’t exactly mimic them,” said Kent, who is scheduled to retire June 9. “The MARPAT design is proprietary, and it’s important those designs are reserved for Marines. We just need to make sure each of our designs is unique to each service.”
Why? Shouldn't we all be wearing the best pattern for the current environment? As 41mag said, nobody seemed to care when we were all in Woodland BDUs/Three Color Desert.
In fact, just go back to those two patterns. I loved Woodland when I was in the Army Guard and hated ACUs after the switch. Even just mucking around in the New England woods on drills and AT it was so obvious which was the better pattern for concealment.
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I despised the Navy dungarees. The quality was was absolute crap. They faded way too fast and I could buy budget blue jeans at Wal mart that were made of way better denim and lasted 10X longer and were 25%-50% cheaper.
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I find the NWUs pretty comfortable, a lot more than the utilities. Plus we no longer look like janitors/inmates. And on top of that we don't have to iron, hose them down with a can of heavy duty starch, and put in "military creases". =D
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I find the NWUs pretty comfortable, a lot more than the utilities. Plus we no longer look like janitors/inmates. And on top of that we don't have to iron, hose them down with a can of heavy duty starch, and put in "military creases". =D
Ugh, don't remind me of those. I had a real genius of a BM2 who kept scolding me for not putting creases in my friggin' COVERALLS. Every day I was elbow deep in paint, paint chips, rust, dust, grease and other general muck, and this moron was worried about adding creases to an item of clothing that didn't even call for them as an optional item. *twitch* Also rather into an Air Force NCO once who forced his subordinates to crease and starch their new digi tiger stripes despite the tags clearly stating "DO NOT STARCH." Only one small problem with that. The new high-speed low-drag digi-cams which previously had been nice and subdued on night vision goggles now shown like a beacon lantern, the starch apparently being highly IR reflective (which is also why they went from polished leather to unpolished suede boots btw).
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Screw it. Take a hint from highly sought after badasses.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreentracs.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e5504a658688330148c8143e7f970c-800wi&hash=45aa5bfeaf77260aab2ca62900035dfa1fbe4477)
When they're good enough to win wearing that, they're good enough.
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Screw it. Take a hint from highly sought after badasses.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreentracs.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00e5504a658688330148c8143e7f970c-800wi&hash=45aa5bfeaf77260aab2ca62900035dfa1fbe4477)
When they're good enough to win wearing that, they're good enough.
Except....they haven't fought anyone for 200 years. Probably a bit rusty.
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Except....they haven't fought anyone for 200 years. Probably a bit rusty.
You wanna test 'em?
Seems nobody else does either.
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You wanna test 'em?
Seems nobody else does either.
1000 yards of open field and a Ma Deuce and I suspect they'll be Swiss cheese.
These guy, though, might be rousgh at distance:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetick.ws%2Fimages%2Ftheswiss.jpg&hash=e7b049924c4f2ec0d4ba2cb41d50540be17c3f9c)
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1. The Army is issuing Multicam to people going to Afghanistan now.
2. Don't forget the Air Force having their own uniform. Very similar to ACUs, but not.
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1. The Army is issuing Multicam to people going to Afghanistan now.
2. Don't forget the Air Force having their own uniform. Very similar to ACUs, but not.
Not to mention that Generals seem to come up with these pet projects of their own, which do not mean anything for the entire branch of the military, but the press tends to run with the story (their own Army Times being the worst offender it seems) as if it were a whole branch-wide change.
As a total outsider, I've come to a conclusion that who actually does have the power to create universal standards in a soldier's basic gear like an adopted camouflage standard, or basic weapon to say... replace the M4/M16 family is hideously complicated, and changes from day to day with whoever's stock over in the DoD/Pentagon is riding high at the moment.
I suspect that only the POTUS himself, or DefSec actually has the kind of power to decide something like that and actually make it so with an order/penstroke, at least in the way the media comes out with a story that excitedly decrees that "THIS IS YOUR NEW RIFLE" (nope) and "THIS IS EVERYBODY'S NEW UNIFORM!" (nope)...
And even then, I'm getting the sense that when such a change does come down the pipe, it's as likely as not to be wrong, like the too-light/blends with nothing ACU's, and the "Derp... We's ALL Speshul Forces Now!" berets.. :laugh:
Right way, wrong way, Army way.
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Huh.
I'm in the process to join the Army Guard to get my commission after getting out of the Corps back in '04.
If this goes I would wear my MARPATs on general principle, I earned 'em and if anyone wants to look close enough to notice the EGA they can bring it up with me then.
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The Army is soon going away from the beret with ACU's and is going to allow sew on name, US Army, rank and skill badges. Also Velcro on trouser pockets going away back to buttons.
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The Army is soon going away from the beret with ACU's and is going to allow sew on name, US Army, rank and skill badges. Also Velcro on trouser pockets going away back to buttons.
I've never understood the military fixation on berets. IMO, a military uniform should do one of two things: make the soldier harder to kill (camouflage, bullet resistant vests, etc) or make them LOOK hard to kill (either by making them look scarier, bigger, etc, or, alternatively, like a badass mofo).
A beret does neither.
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I always thought the beret was Clinton's way of flipping the finger to the military given the provenance of earlier media coverage of berets and the president. In any case I glad to hear the beret is on the way out. Hopefully an exclusion will be made for certain units.
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I should clarify. The beret is going away as standard headgear with the ACU's, will now be the Patrol Cap. The beret will still be around for wear with the Class A's/Blues. Plus with the new Blues, NCO's are to wear the bus drivers cap. Of course being in a CAV unit I will just wear my Stetson. =D
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I should clarify. The beret is going away as standard headgear with the ACU's, will now be the Patrol Cap. The beret will still be around for wear with the Class A's/Blues. Plus with the new Blues, NCO's are to wear the bus drivers cap. Of course being in a CAV unit I will just wear my Stetson. =D
What's a patrol cap?
And what's a bus driver's cap (if I'm not a bus driver)?
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What's a patrol cap?
And what's a bus driver's cap (if I'm not a bus driver)?
Patrol Cap:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa199%2Fdogmush%2FphpThumb_generated_thumbnail.jpg&hash=4702a3c8397cc8292650d1988a6af611660339d7)
Army Service Cap:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa199%2Fdogmush%2F05-103-hi-1.jpg&hash=031adce4903a305915cc723aac5b255e7b96563f)
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Yep, still no uniform neck or ear sun protection while in garrison. Super.
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Yep, still no uniform neck or ear sun protection while in garrison. Super.
While true, I don't care right now.
I'm so glad not to have to wear a black wool blanket on my head in FL, that I'll take my Patrol Cap back and grin the whole time.
Besides Boonie Caps look stupid in garrison.
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Besides Boonie Caps look stupid in garrison.
Unless it is a hot female airforce member with just a t shirt and trousers.
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Never did care for those patrol caps. They always look messy when donned after being stowed in the pockets or such. Much prefer the 8-points the Navy and Marine Corps uses. Even after being folded in half, scrunched up, and stuffed in a pocket the stitching used in them helps them retain their shape.
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I always thought the beret was Clinton's way of flipping the finger to the military given the provenance of earlier media coverage of berets and the president. In any case I glad to hear the beret is on the way out. Hopefully an exclusion will be made for certain units.
Nope, that was Shinseki's gift to the Army. He saw a Ranger unit. Said the black beret made them look hardcore and thought the whole army would look hardcore if only they had berets. He was wrong, so horribly, terribly wrong. Most can't wear it properly and end up looking like they should be tossing pizza's not shooting bullets. It just needs to go back to Rangers (black), Airborne (maroon) and Special Forces (green).
The patrol cap needs to be the headgear with the daily wear uniform (whatever they may be) and the Army Service aka "Bus Driver" Cap with the dress blues. Killing the class A's wear a mixed blessing, it was ugly, but at least gave you a "Business Casual" with the short sleeve shirt and the black sweater (tie optional). Which took the place of khaki's. There needs to be an "undress" uniform but dress blue pants, white shirt and black tie ain't it (no rank insignia, for one).
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After six years in the Army Guard I can count the number of times we wore our berets on all my fingers and toes, with toes left over. It was one of the few benefits of being in an infantry unit. We were issued boonies but only wore them when we were playing OPFOR.